Dtw757
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Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:53 pm

While reading so many threads that have Northwest going under or being bought out and picked apart by other airlines, I want to look on the positive side for a bit.

Northwest is scheduled to be the first North American carrier to put the 787 into service in August 2008. What I am wondering is this. Where will NWA fly the 787?

The DC10 will be out of service in early January 2007 so it will not be directly replacing them. Will they be replacing some of the 330's on the Trans-Atlantic or Pacific routes? Maybe replacing the 757-300's that they are currently using from the west coast to HNL? Does anyone think we'll see the return of widebody domestic service at NW like we had with the DC10 prior to the 757-300 arriving?

My fingers are crossed that Northwest gets through their current financial difficulties and we'll be seeing these great new birds landing at DTW just 2 years from now.
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FlyGuyClt
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:55 pm

My Guess.

JFK-NRT
DTW ICN
DTW HKG
DTW PVG
DTW PEK
SEA SYD
DTW DEL
DTW BOM
DTW CAN

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
bobnwa
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:02 pm

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 1):
My Guess.

JFK-NRT
DTW ICN
DTW HKG
DTW PVG
DTW PEK
SEA SYD
DTW DEL
DTW BOM
DTW CAN

A very good list. I think they are all a good possibility except for SEA-SYD.
 
B742
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:13 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 2):
A very good list. I think they are all a good possibility except for SEA-SYD.

I agree!  Smile

Will the 787's slot alongside the A330's and not replace them?

Rob!  wave 
 
burnsie28
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:23 pm

I think MSP-SYD would be a better option. It's 7825 nautical miles, the 787's range is supposed to be 8,500nm.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:44 pm

MEM-NRT is a possibility.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 4):
think MSP-SYD would be a better option. It's 7825 nautical miles, the 787's range is supposed to be 8,500nm.

Assuming that the in-service OEW is the same as the generic OEW it would be at the max end of its passenger's only loading assuming -40k winds westbound.
Not a likely scenario, I would think.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 5):
MEM-NRT is a possibility.

I guarantee that has never been looked at or will it ever be looked at. MEM neither has the feed or the O&D to support a nob-stop to Asia.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 7):
I guarantee that has never been looked at or will it ever be looked at. MEM neither has the feed or the O&D to support a nob-stop to Asia.

People said the same thing about MEM-AMS before it was launched.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
bobnwa
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 8):
People said the same thing about MEM-AMS before it was launched.

I don't remember anyone at NWA ever saying that, but I guarantee they would say it about MEM-NRT.
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 2):
A very good list. I think they are all a good possibility except for SEA-SYD.

Bet you $5 !

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
bobnwa
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 10):
Bet you $5 !

Your'e on. Now I have to decide how to spend my $5.
 
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STT757
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:31 am

PDX-NRT
SFO-NRT
SEA-NRT
LAX-KIX
HNL-KIX
NRT-CAN
NRT-PUS
NRT-ICN
NRT-BGK
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
eva777sea
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:04 am

SEA-KIX
SEA-HKG
SEA-China
LAX-KIX
DTW-China

these are just my 2 cents
 
bmacleod
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:19 am

I thought the 787 was a replacement to the 767, which is mainly used on trans-atlantic routes. It would be better to order the 777LR for routes like
DTW HKG
DTW ICN
DTW PEK and JFK NRT

I know the 787 has much greater range than the 767, but the 777LR would provide the needed passenger capacity for these routes.  scratchchin 
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
eva777sea
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:58 am

NW doesn't have any 767s...
 
rwsea
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 12):
SEA-NRT

No way - the A332 assigned to this route is too small already.

I consider the following to be possibilities:

DTW-HKG
DTW-KIX
DTW-PEK
MSP-HKG
SEA-HKG
SEA-KIX
MEM-AMS
DTW-TLV
 
ordryan28
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 3):
Will the 787's slot alongside the A330's and not replace them?

yes. i don't know why NW would want to replace their 330's
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:33 am

Look for NW to use the 787s to open long thing routes from DTW and MSP to Asian cities.......NW will take advantage of the range and economics of the 787 to open new routes that couldnt economically been flown in the past. We could also see a few new routes from SEA to Asian cities if everything goes well for NW.

The A330s are not going anywhere....they are NW's transatlantic airliner and will be used to fly existing and new routes from NW hubs to Europe. The A330s will also find their way to Hawaii once the DC10s are retired, on the MSP-HNL and seasonal DTW-HNL routes. The 753s are great for the WestCoast-Hawaii services; low operating costs and the right amount of seats for these flights.

The big question is what is NW going to do with its SEA-NRT/PDX-NRT/SFO-NRT routes.......will they remain with A330s, or will NW eventually get 744s back onto these flights once they (and their banks and leasing companies) determine exactly how many 744s will remain with NW. NW had has various 74s in and out of storage in the past year.....the A332s seem small for the NRT routes.....or is that the idea, less seats mean higher yeilds?
 
Dtw757
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
The A330s will also find their way to Hawaii once the DC10s are retired, on the MSP-HNL and seasonal DTW-HNL routes. The 753s are great for the WestCoast-Hawaii services; low operating costs and the right amount of seats for these flights.

The 330's are taking over MSP-HNL on January 8

There is no DTW-HNL seasonal service at this time

What I'd like to know is will we see some widebody domestic return? Perhaps DTW-LAX, DTW-SFO, DTW-SEA, DTW-PHX and other routes we used to have the DC10 flying until the 40's were retired from service. Would be nice to see A330 or 787 on those routes.
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dutchjet
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 19):
What I'd like to know is will we see some widebody domestic return? Perhaps DTW-LAX, DTW-SFO, DTW-SEA, DTW-PHX and other routes we used to have the DC10 flying until the 40's were retired from service. Would be nice to see A330 or 787 on those routes

The 753s are ideal for the routes that you mentioned.....dont count on widebody service returning unless NW, for schedule purposes, needs to move an airplane from a hub to a west coast city on a regular basis. Frequency is in, big airplanes are out, on US domestic routes. Also, too many seats kill yeilds.....and NW is not going to "waste" one of their valuable widebody airplanes on a domestic route, the 757s can handle those missions.
 
Continental
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:36 am

Is it all Asia? What about some new European destinations nonstop from MSP? Remember when they were looking at CDG?
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:46 am

Quoting Continental (Reply 21):
Is it all Asia? What about some new European destinations nonstop from MSP? Remember when they were looking at CDG?

That route, if launched, would probably be better scheduled as an A332 to save the 787 for routes that require more range than the A332.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
dutchjet
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:47 am

Quoting Continental (Reply 21):
Is it all Asia? What about some new European destinations nonstop from MSP? Remember when they were looking at CDG?

The (in)famous MSP-CDG route.......if it ever happens and NW (and not AF) flies it, it owuld probably be with an A330.

A very general outline:

Europe: A332/A333
Hawaii: A333/B753
Asia: A332/B744/B788
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:17 am

The 787 will primarily be for Asia flights. They will not be used across the Atlantic.

What will happen is that the 787 will be used to open up new routes to Asia, plus reallocate the 744's & A330-200's used both within Asia and across the Pacific. Once the DC-10's are retired over the next 6 months, additional 744 capacity will be used to backfill capacity in the Pacific. The 787 will be used in some cases to move some of the A330-200's off the Pacific and allow NW to use them on European flights that are too thin for the A330-300. (like the MSP-CDG flight)
 
centrair
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:02 am

Many of the routes posted are great.

I would not be surprised if NW tries to go head to head with PAL's recent expansion plans and launch their own Non-stop from North America to MNL either from SEA or even MSP/DTW. They could then cut one of the US-JAPAN-MNL flights, add the one non-stop and use a 744 on a different route that needs capacity.

As for 787s on trans-atlantic; like many, I think NW will use them almost exclusively to Asia. But there is the exception of maybe a west coast to Europe or MSP/DTW to Africa (it could happen).
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
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coronado
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:13 pm

I think a MSP-HKG was close to fruition using a 744, when all plans were put on hold following 9/11

Considering the O&D demands of Target and Best Buy buying teams alone, plus the connection feeds a N/S 787 to the capital of the Pearl River Delta would be a high yielding route.

That route alone will keep 3 787's busy year around.
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flydreamliner
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:24 pm

Quoting Ordryan28 (Reply 17):

yes. i don't know why NW would want to replace their 330's



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 24):
The 787 will primarily be for Asia flights. They will not be used across the Atlantic.

Yep, they let NW run flights that wouldn't be economical on the 744 - and in doing so, free up a few 744s (like the one previously on JFK-NRT) for use on the profitable inter-asian routes out of NRT. When the 787s arrive, NW will offer the most North America to Asia city pairs of any airline.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
centrair
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:42 pm

Quoting Coronado (Reply 26):
I think a MSP-HKG was close to fruition using a 744, when all plans were put on hold following 9/11

It was not just planned it was initiated and operated before 9/11. It operated I believe until 1999 or so. I remember a friend flying it and it being in the schedule when I was still in college. I could be wrong though.

They had MSP-KIX and MSP-HKG.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
AADC10
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:24 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
Look for NW to use the 787s to open long thing routes from DTW and MSP to Asian cities.......

They may have some new flight to Asia that will bypass NRT but long thin routes with a very expensive new plane is not very likely unless they expect to attract a lot of people willing to pay a premium for a non-stop. They are going to use it on a solid established route to improve its profit margins. The long thin route concept died with PanAm.
 
LPLAspotter
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:11 pm

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 14):
I thought the 787 was a replacement to the 767

A questoin to everyone out there: If the 787 is a 767 replacement can it still be operated economically on short routes. For example BA uses their 767 across the atlantic and to the middle east in addition to places in Europe. If (I said if) they were to buy 787s would they run them to the same places?

Just wondering
LPLAspotter
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dutchjet
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:26 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 30):

They may have some new flight to Asia that will bypass NRT but long thin routes with a very expensive new plane is not very likely unless they expect to attract a lot of people willing to pay a premium for a non-stop. They are going to use it on a solid established route to improve its profit margins. The long thin route concept died with PanAm.

I think you are off base here......the 787 is all about long thin routes and the ability to operate them profitably. Boeing decided to develop the 787 instead of a direct A380 competitor because Boeing believes that the long range market will continue to fragment.

The long thin market died with Pan Am? Take a look at all of those 767s and 757s flying across the Atlantic connecting various US and European cities and get back to us.......the same will happen over the Pacific with the 787.

And what "established routes" at NW are you talking about......the 787s are not intended to replace either the 744s (the 787s are much smaller) or the A330s (which are very very new).....thus 787s will be used, in most cases, to launch new routes that until now could not be operated at a profit. The longterm idea is the ability to connect cities worldwide with nonstop service, or with only one stopover at one hub.
 
LPLAspotter
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:32 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 25):
would not be surprised if NW tries to go head to head with PAL's recent expansion plans and launch their own Non-stop from North America to MNL either from SEA or even MSP/DTW

Thought that flight did a tech at HNL or GUM. Correct me if I'm wrong.

LPLAspotter
Nuke the Gay Wales for Christ
 
norjet
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:56 am

In this discussion we all implicitly agree that NWA would be retaining its fifth-freedom network out of NRT - which makes complete sense. However, a substantial proportion of the feed into NRT is coming from MSP/DTW/SEA (and I'd suspect the CO codeshares from EWR and IAH.)

The 788's make sense on runs like DTW-ICN/HKG/TPE, MSP-CAN/MNL/KUL, SEA-KIX/PVG and so forth. While these flights would be excellent from the standpoint of maximizing US feed, they sap the connecting traffic through NRT.

For that reason I'd also suspect NW would be thinking about the reintroduction of NRT-JFK/ORD/LAS and new segments like NRT-SAN/BOS/PHX so as to maintain their ability to keep 744s full on NRT-HKG/etc. as well as pre-emptively strike against oneworld (now that they have JAL) or *A...

--Scott
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TVNWZ
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 7):
I guarantee that has never been looked at or will it ever be looked at. MEM neither has the feed or the O&D to support a nob-stop to Asia.

With all the Japanese companies around Nashville, Ten.,Ky, Al, I would imagine a flight would do well. Are the connections to DTW too good that MEM is superfelous?
 
eva777sea
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:40 am

Quoting Norjet (Reply 34):
The 788's make sense on runs like DTW-ICN/HKG/TPE, MSP-CAN/MNL/KUL, SEA-KIX/PVG and so forth. While these flights would be excellent from the standpoint of maximizing US feed, they sap the connecting traffic through NRT.

SEA might be able to support larger aircraft than the 787-8 on a China route.

Quoting Norjet (Reply 34):
For that reason I'd also suspect NW would be thinking about the reintroduction of NRT-JFK/ORD/LAS and new segments like NRT-SAN/BOS/PHX so as to maintain their ability to keep 744s full on NRT-HKG/etc. as well as pre-emptively strike against oneworld (now that they have JAL) or *A...

Where would the feed for PHX come from? Or is it supposed to rely on O&D traffic?
 
bobnwa
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 35):
Are the connections to DTW too good that MEM is superfelous?

Connections via DTW would be virtually the same time wise as MEM from Nashville and Alabama and most southern cities. Plus DTW has a significant edge in connection possibilities from the mid-west and east. The local O&D from DTW far out numbers MEM.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 37):
Connections via DTW would be virtually the same time wise as MEM from Nashville and Alabama and most southern cities. Plus DTW has a significant edge in connection possibilities from the mid-west and east. The local O&D from DTW far out numbers MEM.

The same can be said about MEM-AMS
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 19):
What I'd like to know is will we see some widebody domestic return? Perhaps DTW-LAX, DTW-SFO, DTW-SEA, DTW-PHX and other routes we used to have the DC10 flying until the 40's were retired from service. Would be nice to see A330 or 787 on those routes.



Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 36):

SEA might be able to support larger aircraft than the 787-8 on a China route.

Larger like a 787-10? or larger like a 744...? I don't see SEA-PVG or SEA-PEK filling a 747 every day, but maybe something 787-10 sized, which may be an option further down the road. Either way, if NW is filling up the 787 on their new routes, I'm sure they'll be thrilled regardless.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
centrair
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:48 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 32):
The long thin market died with Pan Am? Take a look at all of those 767s and 757s flying across the Atlantic connecting various US and European cities and get back to us.......the same will happen over the Pacific with the 787.

This is said a lot but there are big diffferences. One. Economies of scale. Europeans have more disposable income than 90% of the Chinese and South East Asians. Currently all non-stops from North America to Asia are to large cities with populations over 1 million, lots of industry and have larger middle and upper classes who can afford to travel. CO and DL have done amazing expansion across the Atlantic to places where they can pick up O&D. These populations have economies of scale which allow their residents to afford such travel.

Second: Access. The US has far more and older agreements with European countries to allow for non-stop travel. Japan, China, Korea and other Asian countries still keep tight controls on the number of carriers that can come, where they can go and frequency. China is opening more airports like Xian, Harbin, Urumuqi, and Chongqing to international service. But the routes will most likely be given to Chinese carriers first with US carriers competing heavily for routes. Just look at how they fight over PVG slots. South East Asia can be reached non-stop but the length of a flight might make it unattractive. Thus an airline like NW will keep using NRT, KIX and NGO.

Though the 787 can open a lot of routes, we are not going to see massive point-point or hub-point. Even with an airline like NW.

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 33):
Thought that flight did a tech at HNL or GUM. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually I think you are right. I heard many are via GUM now. Something about better sleep for pax. (?)

Always wondered why UA and QF can do SYD-LAX (6507nm) but PAL can't do MNL-LAX (6348nm). Are the winds different? Just to note MNL-SEA is only 5788nm. (within the PAL's A343 and well within NW's 787 abilities.)
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:40 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 29):
It was not just planned it was initiated and operated before 9/11. It operated I believe until 1999 or so. I remember a friend flying it and it being in the schedule when I was still in college. I could be wrong though.

you are correct. I even have an old NWA inflihgt magazine circa '99 that shows the MSP-HKG route. Would be cool to see that come back!
 
Carpethead
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:49 pm

The problem with any new routes from NRT or China is the lack of slots at the former and landing rights at the latter. If NW uses its Chinese route authority to fly say DTW to PEK or PVG, the US west-coast will lose the one-stop via NRT. The chances of the two restrictions loosening up is rather unlikely in the near-term and even medium-term.
Therefore, the opening of new Asian 787 routes may be slightly restricted but could include routes from NGO or KIX in Japan. Like NGO-LAX or SEA. KIX-MSP/LAX/SEA. Or to fly from places where there aren't as much restrictions such as ICN, HKG, or MNL in Asia.
 
centrair
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:00 pm

Carpethead, would any new NW routes from North America using 787s eat into the NRT through service? Could that lead to a downgraded aircraft?

How about CTS and FUK? Both are lacking international service to anywhere except within Asia. I know that FUK pax tend to fly via NRT or the cheaper via ICN. Could a 787 non-stop happen at these two airports? What would be the chances of JL or NH fighting back?
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Dtw757
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:32 pm

How many think that we'll see initial 787 service in DTW first like we saw with the A330?
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bobnwa
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:50 pm

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 38):
The same can be said about MEM-AMS

You're correct, that's why we see 4-5 non-stops a day between DTW-AMS.
 
ti717
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RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:35 pm

What about India? I know there been lot of new services started lately but there something the 787 will provide that is currently not there?

Could they use it to service secondary cities in India out of DTW or try to use the 787 to provide expanded service out of NRT (and the Japanese market) to the service to city other service (SYD, PER, India,....) That might not support Nonstop from the US
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eva777sea
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:16 am

RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:06 am

LAX-India
SFO-India
SEA-India
 
membase
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:31 pm

RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 44):
You're correct, that's why we see 4-5 non-stops a day between DTW-AMS.

Why does NW have a MEM-AMS flight at all? Why not just force everyone to fly through DTW?
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:06 pm

MEM-NRT??? Come on. Not a chance, even with the 788. Just because the city is considered a hub doesn't mean it can support a NRT flight. MEM should count its lucky stars that it has direct AMS service. Simply put, the metro area is not large enough to warrant direct Asia service, and the city of Memphis, to my knowledge, doesn't exactly have a booming Japanese business or population base.
 
eva777sea
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:16 am

RE: Where Will NWA Use The 787?

Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:16 pm

Its wouldn't be impossible to make a MEM-NRT flight on NW work, they would have to rely very heavily on connections. It wouldn't be an O&D flight.