DeltaMIA
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DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:18 am

Beginning 06SEP DL mainline will return to ICT and CAK with a daily M88. ICT was a DL station up until the late 90's. CAK has always been a Comair station, but over time receiving off/on mainline service
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deecee8
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:30 am

This is a normal practice for DL. When loads or seasonal needs dictate larger equipment/capacity DL will schedule mainline equipment into these markets, we have seen this in other cities as well, like GPT and MYR just to name a few. It's a good business practice and works well for DL. When the loads or seasonal need changes, the aircraft will be redeployed accordingly.
 
Delta787
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:42 am

Its always nice to see more destinations receive mainline service on Delta.
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avconsultant
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:08 am

The ICT subsidy ended for FL.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/business/15203105.htm

I remember when AA and DL were protesting the subsidies DL had offered mainline aircraft if ICT dropped the subsidies.

I'm not sure about ICT, but CAK is an FL stronghold. This could be the new restructured DL going against FL.

Then again, if a community suffering with RJ's want mainline aircraft to return they should lure a LCC. On the domestic front, the legacies will follow their lead.
 
as739x
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:15 pm

Great new for CAK!

ASLAX
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knope2001
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:38 pm

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 3):
The ICT subsidy ended for FL.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/bus...5.htm

The City of Wichita ended their subsidy, but it appears that Sedgewick County has instead started floating money to AirTran. The key difference is that the city gets federal funding for the airport. The county is unrelated to the airport. So when the city threw money AirTran's way, Delta pleaded to the feds that it was unfair and that federal money should be withheld. Delta still probably finds it unfair, but there is no leverage over the county.
 
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jetpixx
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:49 am

I am so glad to hear this upgrade at CAK...I am a devout SkyMiles guy and I fly CO, DL and NW all the time to NE Ohio. I prefer flying into CAK, but lately have been flying to CLE because I am tired of flying CRJ, CR7 or SF3 on DL and NW...a mainline addition from ATL is a lot more comfortable than flying on a CRJ for two hours.

I know, I know...I could fly FL...but I don't think so.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 3):
Then again, if a community suffering with RJ's want mainline aircraft to return they should lure a LCC. On the domestic front, the legacies will follow their lead.

But how many legacies have, because of LCC's, brought mainline into BGR, XNA, ABE, MDT, ACY, JAC, etc? Oh, none, because the markets don't warrant the mainline service year round. You put the right size airplane that demands the service.

In this case, I don't see why DL returns mainline. The city is still giving money to FL, just via Sedgwick County. Wouldn't that be similar to money-laundering? But in this case, its apparently legal? Airtran still gets the, what was it, $2 million a year, which comps its costs of running the station completely. So any passenger they carry, whether 1 or 117, is a bonus for them. Yea, thats not still discrimination. sarcastic 

Well, I can see DL bringing MD-88 service to try and take any passengers they can, but since FL's operation is comped by the city.....oh, "Sedgwick County," then what is the point?

I do enjoy seeing DL send flights into markets like BMI that ask them not to, as they will be competing with FL, and DL basically says, "Well, you can't say no, so up yours."


Good to see CAK getting mainline. The city is certainly growing and could use it.



OttoPylit
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FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting Jetpixx (Reply 6):
I am so glad to hear this upgrade at CAK...I am a devout SkyMiles guy and I fly CO, DL and NW all the time to NE Ohio. I prefer flying into CAK, but lately have been flying to CLE because I am tired of flying CRJ, CR7 or SF3 on DL and NW...a mainline addition from ATL is a lot more comfortable than flying on a CRJ for two hours.

Don't get too used to it. I wouldn't be surprised if DL yanks this mainline flight by next summer. These mainline additions have little to do with providing more seats to customers, but rather DL's attempts to inflict damage on Airtran.

DL has a long history of flinging capacity at Airtran routes in the hope of knocking Airtran off. The strategy used to work well when Airtran was weak and DL was strong. But now that the playing field is more level, the strategy hasn't worked so well. Not to mention that many communities have gotten smart and realized that it is well worth it to subsidize LCC's when needed, if it means having reasonable air fares and decent service.
 
flyinryan99
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:59 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 8):
Don't get too used to it. I wouldn't be surprised if DL yanks this mainline flight by next summer. These mainline additions have little to do with providing more seats to customers, but rather DL's attempts to inflict damage on Airtran

If you look in the system, that same flight is back to an E170 after September. Doesn't make sense to me to upgrade it to a M88 on the slowest travel month and then downgrade it after that. Only reasoning would be is if Republic doesn't have enough E170s to fly the route. I wouldn't doubt they fly more E170s except for the overnights into CAK, would compete well with FL 717s IMO. I'm glad to see that CAK is still doing well, wonder if DL is thinking of adding JFK?!?
 
OttoPylit
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:02 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 8):
These mainline additions have little to do with providing more seats to customers, but rather DL's attempts to inflict damage on Airtran

And usually works pretty darn well.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 8):
But now that the playing field is more level, the strategy hasn't worked so well.

I would say that its more along the lines of Airtran willing to influence cities to give up precious money in order for "lower" fares, which usually end up being not much lower. Has happened in most of FL's cities, even your precious PNS.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 8):
Not to mention that many communities have gotten smart and realized that it is well worth it to subsidize LCC's when needed, if it means having reasonable air fares and decent service.

If they want "reasonable air fares and decent service", then why are they considering Airtran? Wouldn't it be wise for these communities to be knocking down the door of WN or F9 or B6? FL is closer to the bottom run of LCC's in about every category.

Whats your beef? DL's been adding more and more capacity in PNS for you, and that just can't keep you happy?  Wink



OttoPylit
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MSYtristar
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:18 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 7):
Airtran still gets the, what was it, $2 million a year, which comps its costs of running the station completely. So any passenger they carry, whether 1 or 117, is a bonus for them. Yea, thats not still discrimination.

Boo hoo, big old DL thinks FL is getting an unfair advantage. Cry me a river, Delta. DL has bigger things to worry about than what kind of subsidy FL receives in ICT.
 
73G
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:36 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10):
And usually works pretty darn well

Really? How so? Off the top of my head, I can name a few markets that DL has added mainline service to that haven't affected AirTran one bit. PHF, HOU, and CAK (on and off) just to name a few. CAK and PHF are very strong markets with multiple destinations and HOU does very well also. Not to mention the rest of the markets where they deployed the subfleet of Shuttle 738's with more legroom and leather seats. That didn't seem to matter much either.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10):
Has happened in most of FL's cities

Less than 20% is most?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 7):
"Well, you can't say no, so up yours."

As a Marketing major, I must have missed that classed titled, "Marketing 201, Ways to Drive Business Away". Is that honestly your opinion, and what you think your airline thinks?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 7):
as they will be competing with FL

And competing quite poorly I might add. As a frequent traveller on FL's MCO-BMI-MCO service, I've never seen a load less than 80 pax in either direction on any given day of the week. Conversely, on two different occasions, I have counted less than 10 passengers deplaning the Freedom ERJ from MCO. One day, I watched 6 get off and 7 get on. Competing? With a RJ? Against a mainline jet with IFE and business class? On a 2+ hr flight? Grand strategy.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:08 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 11):
Boo hoo, big old DL thinks FL is getting an unfair advantage. Cry me a river, Delta.

No, it was an unfair advantage, one big reason why the FAA told ICT that they faced HUGE fines if they did not fix the situation of using taxpayer money to illegally subsidize one company, without allowing all other companies to also be eligible for the same offer. You should be thankful, had DL not gotten the ICT involved, and had ICT citizens actually found out that their money was being involved in "under the table" dealings with Airtran, then the company would find itself in quite a pickle. I really don't think your CEO would care to be sitting in front of Congress and having to explain himself to a bunch of lawmakers, do you?

But alas, the city has now had to change tactics and is now, if I understand correctly, trying to coerce private companies to supply money through the county in order to subsidize FL. So thats the main reason why DL is putting larger equipment on the route. Its already apparent that there is not enough ridership in ICT to support FL being there alone, so DL might as well take away the rest of the customers. Its well known that given a choice between DL or FL with no price difference, most choose DL.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 11):
DL has bigger things to worry about than what kind of subsidy FL receives in ICT.

Which is.....? Instead of ranting like a pathetic 11 yr old, why not try to construct your post in a way that doesn't make it sound like you are mad that DL got the FAA involved in your company dealing with dirty money. It would lend a little more credibility to youtself and not make you sound as childish. Just FYI.



OttoPylit
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MSYtristar
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:24 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 13):
Instead of ranting like a pathetic 11 yr old, why not try to construct your post in a way that doesn't make it sound like you are mad that DL got the FAA involved in your company dealing with dirty money. It would lend a little more credibility to youtself and not make you sound as childish. Just FYI.

I'm really not concerned with establishing my credibility on an internet forum, but I can see that you are, so to each his/her own. I choose to establish my credibility in the workplace.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 13):
Its well known that given a choice between DL or FL with no price difference, most choose DL.

Really? It's all apples and oranges to me...coach service in the U.S is pretty much all the same. At least on FL you know you're always getting on a mainline aircraft. That can't be said about DL.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:32 pm

Quoting 73G (Reply 12):
Really? How so? Off the top of my head, I can name a few markets that DL has added mainline service to that haven't affected AirTran one bit.

Then you don't pay very close attention, do you? Let's see, the most recent was the LGA-SRQ flights, then a little bit further back in the later part of the 90's/early 2000's, DL was able to drive FL out of GSO and TOL, and PNS for a short while, before they returned. But then again, the GSO, TOL, PNS, and even more recently, TLH, issues were also compounded by the local governments refusing to keep funneling cash to FL, since subsidies are only eligible to assist new entrants into the market, as compared to keeping them around for 4 or 5 years. Once those local and state governments refused to pay out any more money, FL closed up shops, took their money and ran. Real class act there.

Quoting 73G (Reply 12):
Less than 20% is most?

You think only 20% of FL's routes are subsidized? Listen up closely. ICT, RIC, TOL, GSO, TLH, PNS, GPT, SRQ, IND, and if I'm not mistaken, FNT, BMI, and MLI are all cities that have, at one time or another, given subsidies to FL. I would say thats a bit more than "less than 20%."

Quoting 73G (Reply 12):
As a Marketing major, I must have missed that classed titled, "Marketing 201, Ways to Drive Business Away". Is that honestly your opinion, and what you think your airline thinks?

Apparently so, since BMI asked Delta TO NOT begin service from MCO-BMI, as they were afraid it would drive FL out of the market. Well, whether FL stays in the market is none of Delta's concern, money is. And whats really odd is that airports should be happy when airlines create competition, instead of trying to drive the competition away. So even though BMI asked DL not to fly the service, what did Delta do? Well, Delta flight 6139 leaves MCO every morning at 1000 and arrives in BMI at 1138 and is full every day. In thise case, it was BMI who was trying to drive its customer away.

Quoting 73G (Reply 12):
Conversely, on two different occasions, I have counted less than 10 passengers deplaning the Freedom ERJ from MCO. One day, I watched 6 get off and 7 get on.

Then you aren't paying attention. I only wish I could give you the numbers, even just for this week, for the MCO-BMI flights. Unfortunately, that is against the law and has been noted before for someone giving out direct load numbers. I'll just say this, I can see the actual numbers and you can't, so rest assured that the MCO-BMI flights are leaving 90% full every day on that little ERJ.

Quoting 73G (Reply 12):
Competing? With a RJ? Against a mainline jet with IFE and business class? On a 2+ hr flight? Grand strategy.

As I already stated, it IS working, whether you like it or not. Feel free to PM me, and I'll give you the straight numbers. So, DL's RJ is competing very well, even without any business class or IFE. And don't flatter yourself. FL is no Jetblue. Your "IFE" is nothing more than XM radio. And your "business" class is just a bigger seat. Know why they call it Business Class? Because an LCC can't call the bigger seat First Class. But its nothing more than just a bigger seat, and not very comfortable, either.


Take care,

OttoPylit
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OttoPylit
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:37 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 14):
I'm really not concerned with establishing my credibility on an internet forum,

Then why are you posting on here like you know very much?

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 14):
I choose to establish my credibility in the workplace.

Well, if you work for FL, then you have a long way to go before establishing any credibility.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 14):
At least on FL you know you're always getting on a mainline aircraft.

Being that the majority of your "mainline" fleet is only about 20 seats bigger than the next "regional" aircraft, I wouldn't be patting yourself on the back so soon. Hell, your "mainline" aircraft can't even make it halfway across the country before having to stop.

As I said, stop making childish comments if you want me to keep responding. Correcting you is getting tiring.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
And don't flatter yourself. FL is no Jetblue. Your "IFE" is nothing more than XM radio. And your "business" class is just a bigger seat. Know why they call it Business Class? Because an LCC can't call the bigger seat First Class. But its nothing more than just a bigger seat, and not very comfortable, either.

Even though you may not like FL's Business Class, the flying public does. It was never marketed to be a First Class service, just an upgraded cabin for passengers with a few more amenities. And the XM radio is better than you make it seem, but then again, we're talking about FL here, so it'll always not be good enough. Very sad. And of course FL is no B6...but there's nothing wrong with that.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
so rest assured that the MCO-BMI flights are leaving 90% full every day on that little ERJ.

Wow, 90% full on an RJ?! What a revelation! That's a classic market in the DL route system....right up their alley, actually...mid length flight, no in flight service, sardine can-comfort.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:48 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 16):
Then why are you posting on here like you know very much?

I certainly don't post on here to prove myself to you, nor do I pretend to know everything about everything.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 16):
Well, if you work for FL, then you have a long way to go before establishing any credibility.

I enjoyed a good laugh at that one, thank you. Really, I don't see how a DL employee can be questioning the credibility of other airline employees....oh wait, just FL, because they don't deserve any recognition, I forgot.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 16):
As I said, stop making childish comments if you want me to keep responding. Correcting you is getting tiring.

And reading your typical, anti-FL jargon is getting tiring as well, but it is what it is.

[Edited 2006-08-07 14:48:53]
 
OttoPylit
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 17):
It was never marketed to be a First Class service, just an upgraded cabin for passengers with a few more amenities.

Um, no, it can't be marketed as a First Class because its not a First Class. Its nothing like it. And FL can't make it anything like it. Upgraded cabin with a few more amenities? What "amenities" is this? There are none. Let's see, slightly bigger seat, maybe a free drink, and thats about it. I haven't noticed anything being served differently in Business Class as compared to coach. Please, tell me what other "amenities" are there?

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 17):
And the XM radio is better than you make it seem, but then again, we're talking about FL here, so it'll always not be good enough.

Give me a break, I've got XM radio in my car. If I have the grand IFE that you have in your planes in my car, its not THAT grand. Like I said, unless your XM radio controls are gold-plated, you don't have anything surprising. You can even get XM radio in rental cars now. Trust me, your not impressing anyone.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 17):
And of course FL is no B6...but there's nothing wrong with that.

Yea, I guess Airtran has already settled into being comfortable as a second-rate airline. Good to know, straight from the source.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 17):
Wow, 90% full on an RJ?! What a revelation! That's a classic market in the DL route system....right up their alley, actually...mid length flight, no in flight service, sardine can-comfort.

And with an actual FF program and using a Mesa ERJ, its making money. Great market, that MCO-BMI.


OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
DL was able to drive FL out of GSO and TOL, and PNS for a short while, before they returned.

DL never drove FL out of PNS. FL arrived in PNS in November 2001 and has continuously served PNS ever since.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 13):
You should be thankful, had DL not gotten the ICT involved, and had ICT citizens actually found out that their money was being involved in "under the table" dealings with Airtran, then the company would find itself in quite a pickle.

The ICT citizens were well aware their tax money was being used to subsidize Airtran. It was all over the newspapers from the beginning.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
But then again, the GSO, TOL, PNS, and even more recently, TLH, issues were also compounded by the local governments refusing to keep funneling cash to FL, since subsidies are only eligible to assist new entrants into the market, as compared to keeping them around for 4 or 5 years.

FL's service to PNS was never subsidized by taxpayers. It was a travel bank put together by private business who were tired of DL's high fares and poor service.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
Listen up closely. ICT, RIC, TOL, GSO, TLH, PNS, GPT, SRQ, IND, and if I'm not mistaken, FNT, BMI, and MLI are all cities that have, at one time or another, given subsidies to FL. I would say thats a bit more than "less than 20%."

IND never gave subsidies. So your list has ten airports on it. Airtran serves 51 airports. So, it is in fact less than 20%.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
Well, Delta flight 6139 leaves MCO every morning at 1000 and arrives in BMI at 1138 and is full every day. In thise case, it was BMI who was trying to drive its customer away.

Full with low-yield leisure travelers that DL can't make a dime off of.

It should tell you something about your airline, when an airport specifically asks you not to come. They know your company is bad for business. Pretty sad that DL has that bad of a reputation.
 
73G
Posts: 94
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:05 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
bit more than "less than 20%."



Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
and if I'm not mistaken

First off, you are. GSO, IND, FNT, and BMI are markets that never offered subsidies to FL. And those are just the ones I'm sure of. Take away those four from the 12 you named and your left with eight current or past markets. Considering FL currently serves 51 markets and 8/51 is 15.6%...well, thats less than 20%.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
DL was able to drive FL out of GSO

Wrong. GSO was always a mainline DL station.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
and PNS for a short while, before they returned

Since FL transferred operations from VPS to PNS, they haven't left once.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
Then you aren't paying attention.

Yeah, I guess I could've miscounted seeing as how BMI is such a big airport and there are multiple flights on the ramp. I physically watched the door open and close and watched the people get on and off. I don't need statistics.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 15):
FL is no Jetblue.

Nope. And neither was Song. But it sure as heck beats an ERJ.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:14 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 19):
Yea, I guess Airtran has already settled into being comfortable as a second-rate airline. Good to know, straight from the source

If you say so, then it must be true.

I guess what it boils down to is that FL is making money, so you can think of them what you will, but they'll be around for a long time, and they'll keep pestering DL....thankfully.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 19):
Trust me, your not impressing anyone

And i'm glad you can speak for the entire flying public as a whole. You must have some real pull! I'm impressed!

[Edited 2006-08-07 15:15:52]
 
OttoPylit
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RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:39 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
DL never drove FL out of PNS. FL arrived in PNS in November 2001 and has continuously served PNS ever since.

Remember the days when it was known as Valujet?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
The ICT citizens were well aware their tax money was being used to subsidize Airtran. It was all over the newspapers from the beginning.

Nope, wrong again. After the news broke, the Wichita Eagle recieved a flood of letters from citizens, ticked off that money was being used to fund an airline, instead of being used for useful purposes, such as schools, etc. I have family that lives in ICT and working for Cessna who sent me a copy of one with a load of editorials to the editor expressing their displeasure. So it wasn't as well known as you'd like it to be.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
It was a travel bank put together by private business who were tired of DL's high fares and poor service.

It was still subsidized. They finally were able to say no to Airtran's incessant whining of "We need more." Fortunately for you, FL had enough ridership to warrant service. Thank the Navy. Oh, and about DL's poor service? Must not be too bad, ridership on DL has also increased ever since adding capacity. For some reason, people just want to fly Delta. I just can't understand it. scratchchin 

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
So your list has ten airports on it. Airtran serves 51 airports. So, it is in fact less than 20%.

First of all, there were 12. Learn to count. Secondly, there are more. Trust me. Unfortunately, I don't have the numbers to be able to say for sure, but if FL was able to get 12 of their 51 airports to cough up the cash, there are more, believe me.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
IND never gave subsidies.

BZZZ! Wrong again. IND did give subsidies, to the tune of 100,000 for 1 yr, but it was not government-ized, it was also a bank collected by local businesses.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
Full with low-yield leisure travelers that DL can't make a dime off of.

Have you seen the wages of Freedom pilots? Its making money. But of course, your not gonna let a post go by without saying, "RJ's don't make money." I'd honestly be surprised if you knew anything more about the airline industry.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
It should tell you something about your airline, when an airport specifically asks you not to come. They know your company is bad for business. Pretty sad that DL has that bad of a reputation.

Heh, must be. But I'll be damned if DL isn't the largest airline in terms of passengers carried, and also the largest international airline across the Atlantic. With all the over-capacity in the US, all that poor service and bad reputation has people coming back more and more to Delta. Horrible airline, let me tell ya. sarcastic 

Quoting 73G (Reply 21):
GSO, IND, FNT, and BMI are markets that never offered subsidies to FL.

GSO and IND did. I mentioned that I wasn't sure of FNT and BMI. But GSO and IND did, in fact, provide subsidies to FL. I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

Quoting 73G (Reply 21):
GSO was always a mainline DL station.

WHAT?! What the heck does GSO being a mainline DL station have to do with anything?

Quoting 73G (Reply 21):
Since FL transferred operations from VPS to PNS, they haven't left once.

Thats it, I'm tired of repeating myself. See answer above.

Quoting 73G (Reply 21):
I physically watched the door open and close and watched the people get on and off. I don't need statistics

And I don't need your counting to see what that flight is carrying day in and out. I've already checked for the better part of the next month, day after day, and damn near full each day. Unless you happened to do your "counting" hobby during the initial flight or so, but your numbers(wherever you claim to get them from) are nothing like the actual numbers.

Quoting 73G (Reply 21):
Nope. And neither was Song.

Your right, Song was better. Which is one reason DL is turning itself into Song. Good call, IMO.

Quoting 73G (Reply 21):
But it sure as heck beats an ERJ.

I don't know, I find the ERJ remarkably comfortable. Especially as they give you a little elbow room around the window seat. DL may put you on an RJ for a 2 hr flight, but at least it won't make you starve with nothing more than peanuts on a 6 hr ATL-LAX flight.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5260
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 23):
Remember the days when it was known as Valujet?

Valujet never served PNS. They served VPS and MOB, but never PNS.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 23):
I have family that lives in ICT and working for Cessna who sent me a copy of one with a load of editorials to the editor expressing their displeasure. So it wasn't as well known as you'd like it to be.

If people don't read, that's their problem. However, the subsidies were well known about.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 23):
Unfortunately, I don't have the numbers to be able to say for sure, but if FL was able to get 12 of their 51 airports to cough up the cash, there are more, believe me.

I don't believe you and neither do most people. You have proven time and time again that when it comes to Airtran you have an axe to grind. Your hatred of Airtran is so strong, that you are more than willing to make stuff up.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 23):
But I'll be damned if DL isn't the largest airline in terms of passengers carried

You are damned, because DL isn't the largest.

July 2006 (passengers carried):
DL (includes DL Connection): 10,042,771
AA (included American Eagle): 11,200,000

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 23):
Have you seen the wages of Freedom pilots? Its making money.

Do you really believe that pilot wages are that big of a driver of profitability? And if the route was really such a moneymaker, DL would continue it. However, the route ends in early September.
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:09 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 23):
it won't make you starve with nothing more than peanuts on a 6 hr ATL-LAX flight.

ATL-LAX rarely is more than 4.5.

6 is JFK-SFO on DL with only buy on board (and of course the snack basket) in coach. You might as well buy something in the airport and take it on the plane with you, it's the same thing. Not having meals on board is not stopping passengers from flying FL. Amzing, huh?
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:16 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 22):
If you say so, then it must be true.

You were the one that implied it, I just stated it. And I don't see anyone coming on here to oppose the statement. Seems everyone else wants to argue other points.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 22):
I guess what it boils down to is that FL is making money

They are? Lets see, would a 4.6 million dollar loss for the first quarter of 2006 be considered "making money?" If so, Delta's doing something wrong, as they have posted profits the past couple of months.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 22):
but they'll be around for a long time, and they'll keep pestering DL....thankfully.

In case you haven't noticed, those tables seem to have turned as well.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 22):
And i'm glad you can speak for the entire flying public as a whole. You must have some real pull! I'm impressed!

Yea, I do. You should see what I'm capable of when I get a few beers in me. I can recite Poe's "The Raven," backwards.  Wink



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
Valujet never served PNS. They served VPS and MOB, but never PNS.

I have a system timetable from mid 1996 that shows PNS with planned service to be commenced later, but perhaps that was put on hold by VJ592.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
If people don't read, that's their problem. However, the subsidies were well known about.

By who? Of course, you have proof that the mayor came out and told everyone that he was using their money to keep an LCC around that was threatening to leave unless they got more money? Most people would say, "Let them go." After all, if the LCC were to stay for the free cash, it is the tax-payers money that would cost them more in the long-run than they would pay for a regluar legacy ticket.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
I don't believe you and neither do most people.

Painting with a pretty large brush there, aren't you? Would you like me to start a roll call of people on here that do believe me? I'm sure it would beat the number that don't which, ironically, are Airtran-lovers like yourself.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
You have proven time and time again that when it comes to Airtran you have an axe to grind. Your hatred of Airtran is so strong, that you are more than willing to make stuff up.

Ha! I have no axe grind. I just find it a very low-class carrier When they start flying and making money like a real airline, and actually deliver a product that isn't trying to knock off of others(i.e.-trying to be Jetblue but too cheap to pay for the TV, calling their employees "crewmembers" just like Jetblue, etc.), then they will be fine in my book. But as they have shown time and time again, they prefer to stay a second class airline. Not my problem.

And what stuff have I made up? So I was wrong about a future route that Valujet was supposed to fly but ended up axing ahead of time? That could be called mis-informed, so what am I making up?

Oh, and if we are talking about axes to grind. If my hatred of Airtran is strong, your hatred of DL is even stronger. But the funny thing is, you go to such lengths to spew your hatred of Delta, but can never have anything to back it up other than the fact that you don't like them. I would be willing to bet you've probably never even flown Delta. But, since Delta seems to carry millions of people a year and have a loyal following of Medallion level Elite customers, I highly doubt they would miss you, the low-paying leisure customer that we stick in RJ's.  

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
You are damned, because DL isn't the largest.

July 2006 (passengers carried):

HAHA! Month to month traffic is always fluctuating. Why don't you wait until the end of the year before you put your foot into your mouth.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines

Oh, and if anyone surpasses DL by the end of 2006, THEN you can damn me.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
Do you really believe that pilot wages are that big of a driver of profitability?

Not at all, but it throws off your continuous "RJ's don't make money" rant that you love to put in every post.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
And if the route was really such a moneymaker, DL would continue it. However, the route ends in early September.

No sh*t, Sherlock. September is one of the lowest travel months. How many people do you think are visiting that giant mouse during the middle of school? Its what you call a seasonal route. When you operate one flight a day, why keep it during a low month, and re-deploy the jet on other routes. Just like your beloved Airtran's SEA route. You have now confirmed that you know nothing of airline marketing or economics. Your hopeless.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 25):
ATL-LAX rarely is more than 4.5.

Ever heard of the Gulfstream? I've seen many a flight be delayed over 2 hrs trying to get above or below it. Still doesn't change the fact.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 25):
6 is JFK-SFO on DL with only buy on board (and of course the snack basket) in coach

What are you talking about, buy on board? What is this phenomenon you speak of? At least the snack basket provides you with a plethora of food. Raisins, cookies, cheese, crackers, etc.



OttoPylit

[Edited 2006-08-07 18:02:29]
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
73G
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:25 pm

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 27):
Ever heard of the Gulfstream?

I've heard of it. The Gulfstream is a warm water current in the Atlantic Ocean that runs south to north along the eastern seaboard of the United States and Canada before curving northeast toward Europe.

I think you might be referring to the jet stream there, chief.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5260
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 27):
After all, if the LCC were to stay for the free cash, it is the tax-payers money that would cost them more in the long-run than they would pay for a regluar legacy ticket.

Where's your proof of this? According to the folks in Wichita, Airtran saved them $67 million in the first 18 months of service. That's not a bad return on investment for a few million up front.

http://www.flywichita.com/About/NewsReleases/2003/12-09-2003.htm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 27):
When they start flying and making money like a real airline, and actually deliver a product that isn't trying to knock off of others(i.e.-trying to be Jetblue but too cheap to pay for the TV, calling their employees "crewmembers" just like Jetblue, etc.), then they will be fine in my book.

And how is DL any different? DL copied JetBlue with Song and now DL mainline. DL is copying Continental with the big push to use 757's on long-haul international flights. You may say Airtran isn't making real money, but somehow they've managed to grow and grow. DL has been forced to shrink and dump almost 160 mainline planes.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 27):
Oh, and if anyone surpasses DL by the end of 2006, THEN you can damn me.

Don't worry, AA will still be larger than DL by years end. If you don't believe the July numbers, here are the numbers for the first seven months of 2006:

DL: 62,794,000
AA: 71,375,000

AA has a comfortable lead and DL isn't going to catch up this year.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 27):
September is one of the lowest travel months. How many people do you think are visiting that giant mouse during the middle of school? Its what you call a seasonal route.

I guess no one goes to MCO in October, November, December, January, February, etc. MCO isn't that seasonal of a market. Demand is pretty strong year round....although some months like September are weaker.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 27):
But the funny thing is, you go to such lengths to spew your hatred of Delta, but can never have anything to back it up other than the fact that you don't like them.

I don't hate DL. I may be more critical of them, but I don't hate them. And clearly after years of decline, I have pretty good reason to be critical. DL has hemorraghed billions in dollars, laid-off thousands of workers, reneged on contracts. Clearly, something has been wrong at DL for quite a while, but hopefully things are changing for the better.

Your criticism of Airtran has no basis except long ago you used to work there (and I suspect you were fired). However, FL's financial performance, not to mention growth speak for themselves.
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 27):
Ever heard of the Gulfstream?

I've heard of it, yes. In this case, you are talking about the jetstream.

6 hours is VERY uncommon for ATL-LAX flights...maybe a few times a year, sure...but certainly not a daily thing.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 26):
You should see what I'm capable of when I get a few beers in me. I can recite Poe's "The Raven," backwards

I can do a pretty mean reciting of "Arthur Gordon Pym", but it takes a while.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:05 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 29):
And how is DL any different? DL copied JetBlue with Song and now DL mainline. DL is copying Continental with the big push to use 757's on long-haul international flights. You may say Airtran isn't making real money, but somehow they've managed to grow and grow. DL has been forced to shrink and dump almost 160 mainline planes.

So has AA, and UA, and NW. All are flying considerably reduced fleets. There is no documented evidence that DL will indeed use 757s to Europe, though that is likely what they will be used for. They could also be used to fly routes like LAX/SFO-HNL and OGG.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 29):
I don't hate DL. I may be more critical of them, but I don't hate them. And clearly after years of decline, I have pretty good reason to be critical. DL has hemorraghed billions in dollars, laid-off thousands of workers, reneged on contracts.

I'd like you to list an airline that hasn't done this is the last 6 years. While AA was able to avoid bankruptcy, thousands (more than DL) of their employees have lost jobs, or are flying or considerably lower wages. And AA even took over a carrier and their 24,000 employees, before demeriting them and subsequently laying almost all of them off. Nice employess relations. Their service is miserable compared to what it used to be, and only in the last two quarters have they managed to finally get their house in order. And NW's management makes DL's look like angels. And have you heard of UA? You being overly critical of DL is ridiculous without excess criticism of UA, AA, NW, and more airlines who have all done the same thing. B6 has managed to take huge profits and flush them down the toilet, and now posts smaller profit margins than the legacy carriers. And with DL vs. FL, DL has done an excellent job of fending off FL at ATL. While FL is a force to be reckoned with, DL has managed to get FL to leave a number of markets, and others, like SEA, can only be sustained seasonally. What other airline faces competition at their main hub from an LCC? You act as if DL should submit to FL and let FL take over business from them. BMI asking DL not to serve is ridiculous. Any other carrier will defend its turf and it's too damn bad if a city doesn't want competition. If BMI feared that DL would force FL to leave the market, then FL needs to step up its game and be a better competitor, it's as simple as that. This is a free market, competition is ALWAYS a good thing. Whether it's offensive or defensive in nature.

Whether you'd like to admit it or not, this time next year DL will be profitable and on its way to returning to being the carrier it was 7 years ago, when it posted the largest annual profit of any airline in history ($1.6 billion), which was a profit margin of 12%.

Jeremy
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting 73G (Reply 28):
I think you might be referring to the jet stream there, chief.

 banghead  Oops, my bad. I just happened to be at work and was trying to type while having a discussion at the same time about Gulfstream Intl Airlines. It just so happened at the same time about to start talking about the jetstream and it just seemed to flow out without me catching it. I admit my error. footinmouth 

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 29):
According to the folks in Wichita, Airtran saved them $67 million in the first 18 months of service. That's not a bad return on investment for a few million up front

And how are they going to estimate how much they have saved? Being that airline prices are very fluid and always changing, how are you to decide how much is saved? Is there a set number of people that fly out of ICT every year? No. Are airline ticket prices fixed at ICT? No. Is there anything that can determine how much money would be saved other than some ICT PR nut who has to have some kind of validation for giving away millions of dollars a year to one airline? No. But lets also look at this. Delta sees that ICT is giving FL free cash for flying, so they think, "Hell, if they're giving out cash, lets not let Airtran steal it all up. Lets play ball." Delta OFFERED to give ICT new flights for some of this subsidation, and ICT could name the equipment they wanted. To show their support, DL went ahead and gave ICT two SLC flights a day and was going to give them a daily flight to MCO that they wanted. FL refused a daily MCO flight and would only provide it once weekly. However, ICT refused to give any of the subsidy to DL, therefore causing DL, in retaliation, to immediately end flying to SLC, CVG, and trim down ATL flights severely. So, figure out how much revenue ICT's actions cost the people of ICT. Loss of flights to SLC, CVG, and a possible daily MCO flight. It seems that you want to look at the supposed "savings" that Airtran may have brought, without looking at the other side of the coin.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 29):
And how is DL any different? DL copied JetBlue with Song and now DL mainline.

Um, no. Yes, DL has added PTV's to its long haul fleet, but DL has first class, DL has meals on international flights, DL has a loyal FF program, DL has worldwide stretch, as well as much more. Jetblue has none of that.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 29):
DL is copying Continental with the big push to use 757's on long-haul international flights.

Really? Prove it. Being that nothing has even happened yet as far as purchasing the planes, find one shred of evidence that said, without a shadow of a doubt, that they WILL be used on long-haul international flights? I won't wait for your evidence, since you will have none. And if DL is copying CO, then CO is copying AA, and vice versa.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 29):
may say Airtran isn't making real money, but somehow they've managed to grow and grow.

2 million dollars a year will support the FL station in ICT. Its easy to grow when you only have to carry 1 passenger to make a profit, while living off the ICT government like a welfare case.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 29):
DL has been forced to shrink and dump almost 160 mainline planes

Sorry, but these planes your referring to as being "dumped", are the regularly scheduled retirements of 732's, 733's, and 762's for fleet simplification. And after all, whatever DL did is working, as they are making profits.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 29):
AA has a comfortable lead and DL isn't going to catch up this year.

We'll see. Just don't make yourself look like an idiot by painting with such a broad brush as you like to do. It makes you look bad.  Wink

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 29):
I guess no one goes to MCO in October, November, December, January, February, etc

No, not really. MCO is pretty weak throughout the fall and winter, and only picks up in spring and summer.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 29):
Your criticism of Airtran has no basis except long ago you used to work there (and I suspect you were fired). However, FL's financial performance, not to mention growth speak for themselves.

Well, you would be incorrect. I only wasted time there until DL did away with a nepotism policy that was keeping me out. I'm glad I spent time there, it allowed me to appreciate how big airlines operate. Even after 2 paycuts, I still make more than my counterparts at FL, still have a better benefits package, and can still fly anywhere in the world I want for free. FL can't touch it. In fact, FL employees were not even allowed to sit in "business" class and the company was trying to force them to pay for traveling "business" class. Pay for traveling space available? What sense is in that? And no, I left of my own free will once I had the chance, realizing that working at FL was the worst mistake one can make with one's career choices. I do have a friend who is still an FA for them. She was quite pissed when she was told they would not recieve a raise in contract negotiations direct from the CEO because they "didn't have the money", when he pocketed $8 million in bonuses the next month.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 29):
I don't hate DL. I may be more critical of them, but I don't hate them. And clearly after years of decline, I have pretty good reason to be critical. DL has hemorraghed billions in dollars, laid-off thousands of workers, reneged on contracts. Clearly, something has been wrong at DL for quite a while, but hopefully things are changing for the better.

As already stated, then why are you critical of DL? You might as well be just as critical of AA, UA, US, and NW. As stated, AA bought out TWA and all their employees, and all of those employees, with the exception of a few pilots who are flying at half seniority, are laid off. The most senior TW flight attendant, just short of 40 years, quit the day before AA could lay her off. AA also, being hours away from declaring CH 11, forced all of their employees to take massive wage cuts, and has yet to restore any of that. "If you look up bad labor relations in the dictionary, there is an American Airlines logo beside it."-U.S. District Judge Joe Kendall, issuing a restraining order in 1999 against an AA pilot strike. That states a lot.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 31):
And NW's management makes DL's look like angels

NW still has not resolved all of its labor relations during BK and has threatened to shut the airline down should any strikes happen. They have farmed out just about all mainline stations to lower paying NW Airlink companies, and giving their ground crews the choice to move to a hub or be laid off. Nice.


UA and US have taken their people on literal roller coaster rides. US has dragged their people through useless acquisition after acquisition and now through 2 bankruptcies before being acquired themselves and trying to become an LCC. UA has had to void all of its labor contracts and use the BK court to force deep wage concessions from its people. And BOTH airlines have thrown their people's pensions out the window(unlike DL and NW, who has been able to save them, awaiting Pres. Bush signature). Even some of the smaller LCC's are starting to post losses. Jetblue, Airtran, even Southwest is having to tighten the belt and raise fares several times this year.


So if you want to complain about "years of decline", you can blame every US airline. If you want to complain about "hemorraghed billions of dollars", you can blame every US major. If you want to complain about "laid off thousands of workers", you can blame every US major. If you want to complain about "reneged contracts", you can blame every US major. Of your criticism of Delta for its shortfalls, there are much worse suspects. Of all those airlines mentioned, scroll through them and you will find the ones who have lost more money, laid off more employees, and reneged on more contracts and screwed employees out of more money than Delta. So be critical all you want of Delta, but your narrow-mindedness will just be overlooking worse convicts.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 31):
What other airline faces competition at their main hub from an LCC?

Yes, being that DL is the only airline facing competition from their own hub, they have done a tremendous job.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 31):
If BMI feared that DL would force FL to leave the market, then FL needs to step up its game and be a better competitor, it's as simple as that.

Naw, that would actually make sense and cause people to actually think, neither of which are Airtran policy.  Wink

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 31):
Whether you'd like to admit it or not, this time next year DL will be profitable and on its way to returning to being the carrier it was 7 years ago, when it posted the largest annual profit of any airline in history ($1.6 billion), which was a profit margin of 12%.

Thats the plan, and according to COO Jim Whitehurst, DL is right on track, even with current fuel prices. Should be exciting to watch.




OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
gsoflyer
Posts: 822
Joined: Sat May 12, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:48 am

GSO did offer Airtan subsidies at some point, maybe no time recent to 2004 when they stopped service, but they served Greensboro for over 10 years.
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:05 am

As for subsidies and FL, DL has received subsidies for years.

LAN - revenue guarantee.
http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...ori=NEWS03&Lopenr=509010336&Ref=AR

AZO
http://www.kalcounty.com/board/meetings/minboc/07-05-05minboc.pdf
 
travatl
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:14 pm

We (ValuJet) never served PNS. I started in 1995, and have every J7 timetable ever printed.... no mention of PNS. We transferred ops from VPS to PNS for better facilities in 2001 - in fact I worked the last VPS departure.

HOWEVER, ValuJet did have an ironic tie to PNS. When a Delta MD88 suffered a catastrophic engine explosion during it's takeoff roll at PNS in July of 1996, killing two passengers and injuring 7, the two dead were ValuJet customers (a mother and her 12 year old son) who had been scheduled to depart from VPS, but had been put on DL because of the ValuJet shutdown three weeks earlier following the Miami crash.

Oh, and I work ATL-LAX consistently (it tends to be a fairly senior route for our cabin crews). The longest it's ever been was just shy of 5 hours. Other than that, it averages about 4:20 - 4:40.

- Travis
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 33):
GSO did offer Airtan subsidies at some point, maybe no time recent to 2004 when they stopped service, but they served Greensboro for over 10 years.



Quoting 73G (Reply 21):
First off, you are. GSO, IND, FNT, and BMI are markets that never offered subsidies to FL.



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
I don't believe you and neither do most people.

Any one else care to doubt?

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 34):
As for subsidies and FL, DL has received subsidies for years

The point of the matter isn't whether an airline gets subsidies, they all do, for one market or another. The point is that subsidies are offered to legacy carriers to initiate service into many smaller-sized markets and to build a customer base. If that is able to be done economically, usually the subsidies are ended thereafter. Such small markets are AZO, LAN, APF, ISO, etc. Markets with little or no air service.

However, in Airtran's case, it chooses to request subsidies from many medium-sized markets(IND, GSO, SRQ, ICT, etc.) to begin service, and then continues to ask for years beyond, threatening to leave if the subsidies are ended, a la Tallahassee, FL.


Well, I have a nice 3 day "weekend" starting tonight. Where to go? I'm feeling somewhat tropical. I wonder what the exchange rate in SJO is right now?



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
travatl
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:24 pm

Go to London - I just got back yesterday... it was great. Weather was awesome, and the crowds weren't too bad. (Expensive as usual, but I think it's worth it...).

- Travis
 
Tom in NO
Posts: 6725
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 1999 10:10 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 11):
DL has bigger things to worry about than what kind of subsidy FL receives in ICT.

The problem here is, a subsidy that is directed by the airport owner/operator towards one of its tenants does smack of discrimination, and the FAA does tend to frown on it. Now if the local Chamber of Commerce, or some business group, or some other entity wishes to provide that subsidy, that's another story.

To put in local terms, a while we (the New Orleans Aviation Board) offered new entrant airlines a $1.00 landing fee for one year as an enticement. We also passed that same offer along to incumbent airlines for adding additional service. What we offer to one, we have to offer to all.

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 38):
The problem here is, a subsidy that is directed by the airport owner/operator towards one of its tenants does smack of discrimination, and the FAA does tend to frown on it.

Well, I do understand what you're saying, but it's DL against FL in ICT of all places...it would be different in my view if ICT was giving a legacy carrier some sort of subsidy, or if this was taking place in a larger market. Let's face it, DL is getting its panties in a bunch over Wichita, Kansas...we're not talking about ATL here.

Typical legacy carrier nonsense...
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 36):
a la Tallahassee, FL.

TLH has regreted losing FL, the fares have killed them. The Chamber is trying to lure a LCC again.

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 38):
Now if the local Chamber of Commerce, or some business group, or some other entity wishes to provide that subsidy, that's another story.

Exactly, it is no ones business.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 36):
in Airtran's case, it chooses to request subsidies from many medium-sized markets(IND, GSO, SRQ, ICT,

This sparked my interest a few days ago when the thread begun. I asked my contacts at GSO and IND. A subsidy was never issued to FL in those two markets. However both markets provide marketing dollars who add new markets. Which IND did provide marketing dollars for SRQ service.
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 40):
TLH has regreted losing FL, the fares have killed them. The Chamber is trying to lure a LCC again.

And do you think they will lure FL? Nope. Unless FL was getting 1.3 million dollar subsidy a year, they couldn't hold foot in TLH. They bragged that the station was performing outstandingly, so Gov. Bush pulled the plug on the subsidies. Within a month, FL packed up shop and headed back to ATL, claiming the "market wasn't there." Hmm, what market? The outstanding market that was performing so well that you didn't need to carry a single passenger? Is that how the airline industry works these days?

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 40):
I asked my contacts at GSO and IND. A subsidy was never issued to FL in those two markets. However both markets provide marketing dollars who add new markets. Which IND did provide marketing dollars for SRQ service.

Then your "contacts" are wrong.

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 33):
GSO did offer Airtan subsidies at some point, maybe no time recent to 2004 when they stopped service, but they served Greensboro for over 10 years.

Now, I'm not going to waste my time digging through archived files from IND and GSO. I said they were there, and have been backed up by a resident of GSO, at least. The subsidy for IND was $500,000 for new LCC service. Dig it up, I've got more important things to do.

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 38):
The problem here is, a subsidy that is directed by the airport owner/operator towards one of its tenants does smack of discrimination, and the FAA does tend to frown on it.

Here was the problem. ICT was offering subsidies, but only to one airline, Airtran. DL asked for some of it, and in return, began service to SLC and offered daily flights to MCO that ICT wanted, and they could name the equipment if they wanted to. ICT refused, saying that it would not provide the incentives to anyone but FL. So DL called the FAA. The FAA said that this is discrimination. You either offer it to all carriers who can fulfill the agreement(FL, DL, NW, AA, UA, etc.), or you cease offering it to anyone, otherwise you will be fined until you do. ICT basically told the FAA to butt out, and the FAA got pissed. The FAA forced them to cease handing the money right over to FL. Now, the city has been able to weasel it through a secondary source, the county, and its suddenly legal, even though it stil fits the description of money laundering, IMO.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5260
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 41):
Now, the city has been able to weasel it through a secondary source, the county, and its suddenly legal, even though it stil fits the description of money laundering, IMO.

Do you know the definition of money laundering? Here it is:

money laundering
n : concealing the source of illegally gotten money

Since no one is concealing where the money is coming from (Sedgwick county), then how is it money laundering?

In the end, I can't blame the officials for doing whatever they can to keep Airtran. If Airtran goes away, fares will skyrocket. DL will slash service at ICT back down to 3x CRJ on America's Sorriest Airline (ASA) and charge $1,000 for a r/t to ATL. If legacy carriers would charge a reasonable price for their service, then this wouldn't be necessary. Unfortunately, the only way to get legacies to offer more fair pricing is to bring in an LCC.
 
gsoflyer
Posts: 822
Joined: Sat May 12, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:23 pm

Quote:

Now, I'm not going to waste my time digging through archived files from IND and GSO. I said they were there, and have been backed up by a resident of GSO, at least. The subsidy for IND was $500,000 for new LCC service. Dig it up, I've got more important things to do.

Guys, I am not saying the GSO gave a subsidy to Airtan in 2004 or 2003 or 2000. For all I know it could have been back in 1996 or 1997 when they first started service. So don't think I am meaning it was any time recent, I am just saying that did at some point.
 
rocANDtpa
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 3:09 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:44 pm

DL will now be a more a legitimate carrier at ICT with a mainline flight. Before they had crappy crjs. With crj service who cares if they stay or leave ICT.
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:07 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 41):
Then your "contacts" are wrong.



Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 41):
The subsidy for IND was $500,000 for new LCC service

I've reached out to 3 people with the airport authorty who say "No." The only money IND shelled out to an airline was ATA back when they were in trouble. You might be confusing ATA for FL. There are no hits on Google.
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
Since no one is concealing where the money is coming from (Sedgwick county), then how is it money laundering?

If you pay attention, you will notice that I said it "fits the bill of money laundering." Because the way the money was being used in the first place was illegal. Taxpayer money being illegally used to subsidize companies and drive down the business of others. It was far more than just discriminatory. Why do you think that after telling the FAA to mind its own business, ICT had to change its practice? Because its little operation was busted. Continue, and some very high profile people are going to jail. Now, the money is being funneled through the county, which suddenly dips it into the "legal" category. But being that the majority of the money is still coming from the city, its still the same.


I can't believe you were dorkish enough to look up money-laundering in the dictionary. Anyone ever see that scene in Office Space?  rotfl 

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
In the end, I can't blame the officials for doing whatever they can to keep Airtran.

Of course you can't, and how could you, with your record on here. Say anything negative about Airtran, and you've blown any chance at sounding credible or confident of anything.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
DL will slash service at ICT back down to 3x CRJ

And what did they do when ICT refused open competition for the subsidies? Routes to CVG? Gone. New routes to SLC? Gone. The additional service to ATL? Gone. DL dropped service down to 4 flights a day in ICT, and has since only added one more. Now, if anyone wants to fly DL(or Airtran,for that matter) out of ICT, they must go through ATL. So much for options for the people of Wichita, thanks to their city leaders.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
and charge $1,000 for a r/t to ATL.

And your proof of this is where? I don't ever remember seeing a 7 day advance purchase to or from ICT being $1,000. In fact, if memory serves me correctly, no fare would be over $704 for the most expensive, one-way, walk-up price. And thats from an airline that offers "frills", unlike your beloved Airtran, not that almost anyone ever chooses to buy the most expensive, walk-up fare. But if there is someone willing to pay it, why not accept it? Just because you can't afford it doesn't mean you should be jealous of others. Thats the thing that keeps the economy moving.

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 45):
I've reached out to 3 people with the airport authorty who say "No."



Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 43):
Guys, I am not saying the GSO gave a subsidy to Airtan in 2004 or 2003 or 2000. For all I know it could have been back in 1996 or 1997 when they first started service. So don't think I am meaning it was any time recent, I am just saying that did at some point.

Well Av, give me the names of your "contacts" at the airport authority and I will give them a call and have a little chat, as they are obviously pulling your leg. As Gsoflyer stated, GSO did give FL a subsidy. I am unsure if it was taxpayer subsidized(like ICT) or a business pot(like PNS), but there was in fact, a subsidy. Now, do you really think that some strange Joe calling the airport authority and talking to someone(probably a temp secretary), do you think they are going to admit anything to you about financial stats and assistance to airlines? Fraid not. no 



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
travatl
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
In fact, if memory serves me correctly, no fare would be over $704 for the most expensive, one-way, walk-up price. And thats from an airline that offers "frills", unlike your beloved Airtran

What frills is one getting from ICT to ATL on DL that they're not getting on AirTran? Please do not regale me with the 50 newest European destinations DL has announced. Just from ICT to ATL, what "frills" is Joe Q. Kansas gonna get?

- Travis

Oh, and I've forwarded your post reflecting your sentiment regarding someone who uses a dictionary to a former Honors English professor of mine. Please expect a very strongly worded admonishment to your parents.  biggrin 
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting Travatl (Reply 47):
What frills is one getting from ICT to ATL on DL that they're not getting on AirTran?

Yea, I'd like to know that too. Has DL brought back the "Pawberry Punch" for the kids or something? Or maybe Dusty the Delta Air Lion will show up on random ICT-ATL flights and tell jokes to the kids. Or maybe the "Medallion" service is back in First Class. Watch out Air Tran!
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5260
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: DL Mainline Returns To ICT And CAK

Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 51):
There is no difference between the service pax receive on your 717s and the service they receive on DCI's ERJs.

How about the ability to upgrade to business class? Can you do that on a DCI ERJ? How about normal-sized over-head bins? Do you have those on an ERJ? How about normal boarding through a jetway? Most DCI RJ's don't offer it.

If you want to call Airtran "no-frills", that's fine. But it's laughable to try and make RJ service out to be premium service.

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