GoBlue
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AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:35 am

I have been wondering for a while why AC has not put up a bigger fight in Calgary to help keep Westjet from their expansion and profitability. If AC really wanted they could saturate the market with cheap seats, or make many new flights from Calgary, to connect to Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver.

I just think that they could be more pro-active in protecting their marketshare. Although i do understand that the Canadian Gov't is quick to step in to penalize AC for being a BUSINESS, rather then a charity.
 
markabcan
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:24 am

What are you talking about? How does the government penalize Air Canada for being a business? Westjet is a strong company with a very faithful following, Air Canada could NOT simply destroy them by saturating the market without putting themselves back into bankruptcy protection which is where they belong anyway! Air Canada had a near monopoly for many years and still could not manage to make money, there was room in Canada for a well run airline and Westjet jumped in and took advantage. If Air Canada could eliminate the competition I assure you they would, problem is they can't, espscecialy with Milty in charge. If it wasn't for these ridiculous Canadian bankruptcy laws Air Canada would and should have been liquidated long ago!

Air Canada never saw the west as a priority but more of a pain, now they are paying for it, and rightfully so! It's catch up the other way around with Air Canada trying to compete with Westjet on their home turf. It's going to be a long battle that I know for sure.
 
chrisa330
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:34 am

In fact the government has placed restrictions on where AC must have maintenance bases, where it's head office must be located, as well as bilingual requirements over and above other canadian companies - including WestJet.

On the other hand, AC is not in the market share business. It's in the business to make money. Capacity dumping in a market is a waste of resources, plus the fact they'd have the competition bureau on their ass in a flash.

AC will put resources on routes where it makes money. Simple as that.
 
markabcan
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 2):
In fact the government has placed restrictions on where AC must have maintenance bases, where it's head office must be located, as well as bilingual requirements over and above other canadian companies - including WestJet

The only restriction that remains from Air Canada's crown corporation days is its billingual restriction, which seem a must anyway for a Eastern Canada based airline. They can have maintenace bases wherever they want, same goes for its head office! Air Canada once was a crown corporation, now it is publicly held corporation and is treated the same as other publicly held companies in Canada! The government cannot tell them what to do any more than they can tell Westjet!
 
chrisa330
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 3):

I guess you've never heard of the Air Canada Public Participation Act?

http://www.tc.gc.ca/acts-regulations/general/a/acppa/act/acppa.html

Let me highlight the important pieces:

(d) provisions requiring the Corporation to maintain operational and overhaul centres in the City of Winnipeg, the Montreal Urban Community and the City of Mississauga; and

(e) provisions specifying that the head office of the Corporation is to be situated in the Montreal Urban Community.
 
chrisa330
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 3):
The only restriction that remains from Air Canada's crown corporation days is its billingual restriction, which seem a must anyway for a Eastern Canada based airline

What a flawed comment. What should it matter where their base is?

On a YVR-YYC flight, why should AC have different language requirements then WS or any other airline?

For Quebec/New Brunswick origined/destined flights, then for sure they should have bilingual FAs, and AC has never argued that.

I'm not saying AC is perfect, but it is not a level playing field out there.
 
ramprat
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:04 am

FYI, AC has more flights and passengers per day than WS out of YYC. I wouldn't say they they weren't being inactive as they have brought and announced alot of new routes in western Canada lately.
 
AC320tech
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 1):
espscecialy with Milty in charge

Ugh, Milton is not in charge of AC, Monty Brewer is. Milton is incharge of ACE, AC's parent company.

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 3):
The only restriction that remains from Air Canada's crown corporation days is its bilingual restriction, which seem a must anyway for a Eastern Canada based airline.

No, AC chooses to be bi-lingual, they chose to be it since AC was formed.

AC doesnt see YYC as a great city to work out of, the flights that are out of it are enough and serve it well. AC hubs out of YYZ, YUL and YVR, and both YVR and YUL hubs dont have as many flights as YYZ, and not to mention the fact that YUL is where the head offices are located.
 
markabcan
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 5):
What a flawed comment. What should it matter where their base is?

Because this is where their most loyal customers will often reside, which is true between Montreal and Toronto.

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 5):
On a YVR-YYC flight, why should AC have different language requirements then WS or any other airline?

This silly law has no effect at all on the bottom line of Air Canada. There FAs are not paid a premium because they are bilingual. It is true that this is a slight annoyance for Air Canada, nothing else. This does not make it a uneven playing field by any means.

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 5):
I'm not saying AC is perfect, but it is not a level playing field out there.

AC is not perfect, nor is Westjet but after looking at the Air Canada Participation Act I see nothing that would hinder the companies profitability. They probably would be based in Montreal with or without this silly act. A maintenance base in Winnipeg is a natural spot anyway that again would probably exist either way.

Quoting Ramprat (Reply 6):
FYI, AC has more flights and passengers per day than WS out of YYC. I wouldn't say they they weren't being inactive as they have brought and announced alot of new routes in western Canada lately

AC is agressivaly growing in Calgary so they certainly are trying to stay competitive!
 
flyyul
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:26 am

In the last year, Air Canada has added new service from Calgary to Orlando, New York JFK, Palm Springs, Comox, Yellowknife, Fort McMurray while expanding service to Toronto/Montreal/Victoria/Los Angeles etc.

Air Canada remains the preferred carrier in Calgary, especially given that it is the only Canadian carrier to provide regular international service.

[Edited 2006-08-06 00:26:49]
 
markabcan
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting AC320tech (Reply 7):
Ugh, Milton is not in charge of AC, Monty Brewer is. Milton is incharge of ACE, AC's parent company.

Yes, but Milton is where the buck stops concerning anything important related to the organization.

Quoting AC320tech (Reply 7):
No, AC chooses to be bi-lingual, they chose to be it since AC was formed.

No, it is the law that they remain bilingual, as stated earlier read the Air Canada Participation Act

Quoting AC320tech (Reply 7):
AC doesnt see YYC as a great city to work out of, the flights that are out of it are enough and serve it well

Again, no! They missed the boat with Calgary and are now expanding rapidly!
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting GoBlue (Thread starter):
If AC really wanted they could saturate the market with cheap seats

AC has tried this many times and while it may hurt the competition by driving down yield, it hurts AC alrready.

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 1):
Air Canada had a near monopoly for many years and still could not manage to make money, there was room in Canada for a well run airline and Westjet jumped in and took advantage.

 checkmark  Moreover, AC's financial performance since emergence from CCAA has not provided investment grade returns. Not even closely.

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 2):
In fact the government has placed restrictions on where AC must have maintenance bases, where it's head office must be located, as well as bilingual requirements over and above other canadian companies - including WestJet.

An airline the size of AC is not unduly harmed with 3 mx bases, vs 1 or 2. That 2 of them were mandated to be in 2 relatively economically depressed cities with lower than average labour costs (YUL, YWG) might actually be helping AC keep costs down.

The AC YUL head office requirement is ridiculous. The HQ should be where the main hub is, in YYZ. AC could also draw on a much bigger pool of capable management in the YYZ market.

The bilingual requirement could simply be ignored by AC. It is unenforceable.

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 5):
I'm not saying AC is perfect, but it is not a level playing field out there.

I agree....it's still tilted in AC's favour. It's actually WJ and others who are treated unfairly. AC benefits from the international route authorities of flying into LHR which were given to AC when it was a favoured crown corporation. Upon its privatization, these lucrative rights should have been re-auctioned.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
markabcan
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 9):
Air Canada remains the preferred carrier in Calgary, especially given that it is the only Canadian carrier to provide regular international service.

Uhhh, I can say without a doubt that Westjet appears to be the preferred carrier in Calgary, support your home town airline kind of thing! Hence, their profitability is soaring and they are continuing to expand! There is no way to actually gage this though.
 
markabcan
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:38 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 11):
It's actually WJ and others who are treated unfairly. AC benefits from the international route authorities of flying into LHR which were given to AC when it was a favoured crown corporation. Upon its privatization, these lucrative rights should have been re-auctioned.

Absolutely! LHR slots should have been auctioned off long ago!
 
9252fly
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 12):
Hence, their profitability is soaring and they are continuing to expand!

Tell that to the large investment companies in Canada,who take a view that they are "unimpressed" with the latest WS quarterly results. Mind you,I don't think AC will be shown any mercy next week when they release their own quarterly results.

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 13):
Absolutely! LHR slots should have been auctioned off long ago!

What a load of rubbish,you've got to be kidding,what world do you live in?
 
markabcan
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 14):
What a load of rubbish,you've got to be kidding,what world do you live in?

The world where competition is important to keep prices and service in check! Not the world where old crown corporation hand outs give a company a significant competitive advantage despite its eventual privatization from the government.

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 14):
Tell that to the large investment companies in Canada,who take a view that they are "unimpressed" with the latest WS quarterly results. Mind you,I don't think AC will be shown any mercy next week when they release their own quarterly results.

True, but I never claimed that WestJet shares should be the mainstay of anyone's stock portfolio. They have shown consistent and growing profits, something Air Canada has never been able to accomplish! Whether yields are slightly down or earnings per share did not quite meet expectations is not my main concern, the companies profitability is!
 
Bicoastal
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:24 am

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 12):
Uhhh, I can say without a doubt that Westjet appears to be the preferred carrier in Calgary

Rather than anecdotal stories, can we see some cold, hard facts, please? Let's look at the number of passengers last year and year to date from Calgary, the number of flights, number of seats, etc.

Thanks. We down south are enjoying the battle up north, but some facts would be appreciated.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
flyyul
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:43 am

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 12):
Uhhh, I can say without a doubt that Westjet appears to be the preferred carrier in Calgary, support your home town airline kind of thing! Hence, their profitability is soaring and they are continuing to expand! There is no way to actually gage this though.

I am not one to like motherhood statements. Once again, Air Canada is the market leader in the Calgary market. It offers more daily flights and more daily seats to more destinations in the WORLD. This is NOT debatable.

In fact, Air Canada has 3 daily trans-atlantic flights out of Calgary, for a population that just this year hit 1,000,000 residents according to Statistics Canada. This would be unheard of south of the border. Air Canada has recognized the value of the Calgary market for the very beginning, and has retained it's market leadership no doubt.

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 15):
True, but I never claimed that WestJet shares should be the mainstay of anyone's stock portfolio. They have shown consistent and growing profits, something Air Canada has never been able to accomplish! Whether yields are slightly down or earnings per share did not quite meet expectations is not my main concern, the companies profitability is!

What a lame attempt to compare apples and oranges. WestJet is a low cost carrier with one fleet type, serving one segment of the market. Air Canada is a multi-dimensional carriers with several fleet types, satisfying virtually all segments of the market. Their cost structures and vulnerability to external market pressures are not at all the same.

Clearly my Albertan friend, you can do better than this.
 
markabcan
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:15 am

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 17):
Once again, Air Canada is the market leader in the Calgary market. It offers more daily flights and more daily seats to more destinations in the WORLD.

Yes, Air Canada does offer more seats to more destinations, what's your point? That certainly does not make them the preferred carrier here in Calgary, it makes them the largest carrier here in Calgary! Market success is dictated by long term sustainability and success, not who throws the most seats into the market.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 17):
In fact, Air Canada has 3 daily trans-atlantic flights out of Calgary, for a population that just this year hit 1,000,000 residents according to Statistics Canada. This would be unheard of south of the border.

Yes, I assure you those flights are not charities but profitable or they would be discontinued. This is not a favour to our city from Air Canada! In fact British Airways will be entering the market shortly illustrating that the demand is there, one million people or not.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 17):
Air Canada has recognized the value of the Calgary market for the very beginning, and has retained it's market leadership no doubt.

If this was true Air Canada wouldn't be scrambling to add focus and capacity to the YYC market. Westjet saw the potential of YYC and exploited it as any well run business should, if Air Canada had its act together Westjet would have never had the chance.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 17):
What a lame attempt to compare apples and oranges. WestJet is a low cost carrier with one fleet type, serving one segment of the market. Air Canada is a multi-dimensional carriers with several fleet types, satisfying virtually all segments of the market. Their cost structures and vulnerability to external market pressures are not at all the same

And I never said that they had the same cost structure. In the end of the day shareholders don't care about excuses regarding a companies cost structure, they care about profits, that is the bottom line! If you can't make money with international ops and a first class cabin, do away with it.

Clearly my Quebecois friend, you can do better than this

[Edited 2006-08-06 03:23:00]
 
AC320tech
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:24 am

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 15):
True, but I never claimed that WestJet shares should be the mainstay of anyone's stock portfolio. They have shown consistent and growing profits, something Air Canada has never been able to accomplish!

Like FLYYUL said, you cannot compare AC to WS. We are bigger than WS, if you want to fly to LHR, HKG, NRT, Or any ware in the US, Europe, Asia, or the South Pacific, you will call AC cause WS doesnt fly there.

If you want to compare stocks, AC's stock is high, $30+ high. WS, $10-$14.
 
markabcan
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:33 am

Quoting AC320tech (Reply 19):
Like FLYYUL said, you cannot compare AC to WS. We are bigger than WS, if you want to fly to LHR, HKG, NRT, Or any ware in the US, Europe, Asia, or the South Pacific, you will call AC cause WS doesnt fly there.

If you want to compare stocks, AC's stock is high, $30+ high. WS, $10-$14.

Again who cares where they fly, that is not an excuse to lose money! Of course you can easily compare them, they are both trying to run airlines, difference is one is continually profitable and the other is not! LHR, HKG, FRA, doesn't matter, it's not an excuse to lose money, it's a explanation but not an excuse.

You cannot just compare the price of stocks to decide who is in a better financial position, that's not how finance works. Westjet has had several stock splits to keep the price down.
 
AC320tech
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:47 am

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 20):

Again who cares where they fly, that is not an excuse to lose money! Of course you can easily compare them, they are both trying to run airlines, difference is one is continually profitable and the other is not! LHR, HKG, FRA, doesn't matter, it's not an excuse to lose money, it's a explanation but not an excuse.


Um lots of people seem to care where we fly, because thats one of the reasons why people choose to fly an airline.

Loose money? What are you talking about, this isnt 2002, this is 2006 and for the past quarters since sept 30th 2004, weve been turning one helluva profit.

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 20):

You cannot just compare the price of stocks to decide who is in a better financial position, that's not how finance works. Westjet has had several stock splits to keep the price down.

Well you compared stocks and stock portfolios and said we should have WS instead of AC stock.

[Edited 2006-08-06 03:49:28]
 
9252fly
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:47 am

AC history is much,much longer than WS(80 v 10 years),so in all fairness,they can never and should never be compared apples to apples. What they have in common is airline seats,and that's where the comparison stops.

[Edited 2006-08-06 04:01:15]
 
AC320tech
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:54 am

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 22):
AC history is much,much longer than WS(80 v 10 years),so in all fairness,they can never and should never compared apples to apples. What they have in common is airline seats,and that's where the comparison stops.

Exactly, why do we have to compare AC to WS, its like comparing AA to B6.

I wouldn't be so sure about the seats, because someone will say "no, WS has TV's in them!"
 
BO__einG
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:40 am

Calgary is in a specially unique position right now gushing like crazy for economic growth. Each of those Air Canada oceanic flights bring in like $100,000 a day for local economy ranging from the airport, the city, to the store owners.
I think its good that AC is maintaining a dominant fix to our international networks. I just can't stange having our city be served by numerous cheap charter carriers when we can have a quality full service airline.

I would agree to a number of FLYYUL's points. AC is of course the nation's largest airline so they are probably the dominant airline in all major canadian cities including ours despite the WestJet stronghold.
I'm not sure about being the preferred airline by our city. That may be more of a personal opinion rather than a fact. Even though there are many flights by AC if some of these flights go with a marginal~average load while WJ on a competing route usually goes full, then WJ would be the preferred one however this would apply to only one route and not the entire network.

WJ and AC I believe falls under different catagories since they are vastly different in the way they operate but since they are the two biggest I suppose many would put them as same rank and choose between one or the other. WJ's domestic network is very strong keeping AC on its heels, International and transborder I would say AC is still the leader on that.
Next year with the new planes it is said to add a transpacific flight to Calgary.

Remember, we have 1 million people while places in the US such as Kansas City, St Louis, Cleveland, Pittsburgh that are larger don't have the kind of opportunities like we do. Calgary is a lucky city and it will continue to be for the future.
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flyyul
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:09 pm

Air Canada is preferred as it provides the most comprehensive network for Calgarians and Albertans.

The logic follows suit. Calgarians wanting to travel the world, the brand that resounds is Air Canada. Unless what we are saying is that Calgarians tend to fly strictly in the west, and rarely move east  Smile And if Air Canada offers more daily seats out of Calgary than say WestJet or whoever else, and likely more market share, then AC remains the preferred carrier.
 
timeair
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:23 pm

Quoting GoBlue (Thread starter):
have been wondering for a while why AC has not put up a bigger fight in Calgary to help keep Westjet from their expansion and profitability.

In reality, AC does not have the aircraft available to increase capacity out of YYC without significantly impacting other parts of it's operations. You may see an increase next year with ACJazz receiving more RJ aircraft, however currently, AC would have to take capacity out of Eastern Canada to provide more lift out of YYC, or abandon routes that WS may in turn pick up and take the feed in their network. As of right now, both carriers are doing quite well ex YYC, which is good for BOTH carriers, and may result in additional lift on both fronts if either pick up more aircraft, therefore benefitting us, the consumer with reasonable fares to more destinations...
You can't get there from here.
 
northstardc4m
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 13):
Absolutely! LHR slots should have been auctioned off long ago!

sorry, but i just have to get this out of my system:

When AC was privatised, it wasnt anywhere near a monopoly. It had a competitor called Canadian, remember them?

Like AC, Canadian and it's predecessors were granted long haul monopolies. In the historical sense AC got Europe (with some exceptions, CP got AMS, Italy) and CP got the Pacific (again with some exceptions, AC could fly to India, Singapore, but only the wrong way around) and most of South America. AC wasnt allowed to fly the lucrative routes to Japan, Hong Kong or Mexico. CP wasn't allowed into LHR. This was the deal.

Now then, WHEN AC was privatised, CP was allowed into LHR, but AC wasnt allowed into NRT, HKG, etc. Now when CP... well lets put it nicely... decided to wed AC... AC got it's rights into Asia, and picked up it's slots at LHR, some of which it couldnt hold and DID release (to BA of all people too). Now the current bilaterral with the UK allows a second carrier from Canada, but to date no Canadian carrier is willing to put up the required funds or legalities to make that happen. So, please, can we dispense with this "Air Canada should give up LHR for compitition!" bs? AC has plenty of compitition, and it IS a private company that IS making a profit, and is doing it despite a very UNlevel and slopped uphill playing field!

IMHO, The Canadian government should be hands off of the aviation industry, and EVERYONE would be better off. Look at Australia, sure Ansett is gone, but QANTAS is thriving and has plenty of domestic compitition, all that without the government playing rough-shod over the whole thing.

If you want to fix compitition in Canada, END AIRPORT RENT!
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:41 pm

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 17):
In fact, Air Canada has 3 daily trans-atlantic flights out of Calgary, for a population that just this year hit 1,000,000 residents according to Statistics Canada.

Flights that were awarded when AC was a crown corporation, and which should be re-auctioned. AC hardly developed these routes....they were handed to AC on a platter and AC as a crown corporation held on to them.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 17):
Air Canada has recognized the value of the Calgary market for the very beginning, and has retained it's market leadership no doubt.

AC's market leadership stems from its sheer size, not due to any value or focus on YYC. WJ has only been around for 10 years, and AC recently had 85% market share in Canada, now dropping fast to the 60% range or so. WJ is growing fast and YYC will be the first market that WJ surpasses AC in market share, in due course.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 17):
WestJet is a low cost carrier with one fleet type, serving one segment of the market. Air Canada is a multi-dimensional carriers with several fleet types, satisfying virtually all segments of the market.

Nonsense. About 85% of AC's passenger base is economy class, the same target market as WJ. AC and WJ are entirely comparable. AC's several fleet types speaks more to its inefficiency than its so-called multi-dimensionality.

Quoting AC320tech (Reply 19):
If you want to compare stocks, AC's stock is high, $30+ high. WS, $10-$14.

You can't compare actual stock prices. You can only compare relative stock performance. AC's initial stock class is now worthless.....since it fell into bankruptcy.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 25):
Air Canada is preferred as it provides the most comprehensive network for Calgarians and Albertans.

No, AC was just there first in the market. That's all.

Quoting TIMEAIR (Reply 26):
In reality, AC does not have the aircraft available to increase capacity out of YYC without significantly impacting other parts of it's operations. You may see an increase next year with ACJazz receiving more RJ aircraft, however currently, AC would have to take capacity out of Eastern Canada to provide more lift out of YYC,

True, while WJ will grow from 58 to 72 737's from now to Feb 08, an increase of about 25% in fleet size, much focused on the YYC market.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:04 pm

Neil,

We'll argue about this over a beer some day. I think for the most part, my argument is pretty sound.

Say what you will about Air Canada, they certainly do a good service out of Calgary. And im sure there is more to come in due course.
 
ACDC8
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:38 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 11):
AC benefits from the international route authorities of flying into LHR which were given to AC when it was a favoured crown corporation. Upon its privatization, these lucrative rights should have been re-auctioned.



Quoting Markabcan (Reply 13):
Absolutely! LHR slots should have been auctioned off long ago!



Quoting Markabcan (Reply 15):
The world where competition is important to keep prices and service in check! Not the world where old crown corporation hand outs give a company a significant competitive advantage despite its eventual privatization from the government.

Oh please! AC was there long before WS was even a twinkle in someones eye. AC received the rights for LHR, shared them with CP and has every right to retain them. Why should any business have to give up any right they have received just because there is a new kid on the block?  Yeah sure

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 28):
Flights that were awarded when AC was a crown corporation, and which should be re-auctioned. AC hardly developed these routes....they were handed to AC on a platter and AC as a crown corporation held on to them.

I'm quite sure if WS was around when TCA was formed, they would have had a chance for those rights as well. Fact is that they weren't, end of discussion really.

Question. Did WS bid for the LHR slots at the time of the AC and CP merger?

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 28):
Flights that were awarded when AC was a crown corporation, and which should be re-auctioned. AC hardly developed these routes....they were handed to AC on a platter and AC as a crown corporation held on to them.

 zzz 

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 17):
In fact, Air Canada has 3 daily trans-atlantic flights out of Calgary

YYC-FRA 1x, does AC fly the LHR flight 2x daily now?

Quoting AC320tech (Reply 23):
Exactly, why do we have to compare AC to WS, its like comparing AA to B6.

Exactly! Very simple, 2 different companies in the same industry but with 2 different markets. Apples and oranges.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
BO__einG
Posts: 2646
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:05 pm

It is 1x daily for FRA and twice daily for LHR.
Also that downgrades to 1x LHR in the winter but thats okay. BA will fill in for the second daily LHR.  Smile

Now for next year, if AC gets their extra planes in time it is very possible to see a Calgary-Asia link establish itself. A prime target would likely be Tokyo. When CP was around they had flights to NRT and back non-stop for a time.
AC may give this one a go. If it becomes the case, you are looking at a relatively young city with only 1 million people flying 3x to Europe and a flight to Asia. All this from Air Canada alone. BA and others will add to this amount.
On a daily basis that is.

Nothing short of astonishing for what a city of this size can do.
When you live in a city like this as long as I have, you start to appreciate its successes and milestones.

Of course it will still be a while before catching up to the level of YVR or YYZ and even YUL I guess in terms of international traffic growth.
Follow @kimbo_snaps on Instagram or bokimon- on Flickr to see more pics of me and my travels.
 
ACDC8
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:57 pm

Did AC not have a restriction put on them when WS first started service? IIRC, AC was not allowed to form a LCC for a certain period of time or something along those lines.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
markabcan
Posts: 199
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:59 pm

Quoting AC320tech (Reply 21):
Um lots of people seem to care where we fly, because thats one of the reasons why people choose to fly an airline

Profitability is key, not the amount of prestigeous destinations! Not enough people are chossing to fly Air Canada because thery are losing money in the long term!

Quoting AC320tech (Reply 21):
Well you compared stocks and stock portfolios and said we should have WS instead of AC stock.

No I didn't, airline stock is a bad investment period! Whether Air Canada or Westjet

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 22):
AC history is much,much longer than WS(80 v 10 years),so in all fairness,they can never and should never be compared apples to apples. What they have in common is airline seats,and that's where the comparison stops.

Again who cares! Canadians somehow believe that AC deserves imunity from bad business and losses because they are a large international carrier?

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 25):
Air Canada is preferred as it provides the most comprehensive network for Calgarians and Albertans.

The logic follows suit. Calgarians wanting to travel the world, the brand that resounds is Air Canada. Unless what we are saying is that Calgarians tend to fly strictly in the west, and rarely move east And if Air Canada offers more daily seats out of Calgary than say WestJet or whoever else, and likely more market share, then AC remains the preferred carrier.

Local business tavellers are the key to sucess, something that Westjet has secured! Westjet is leading in what matters and it shows in the financial statements!

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 28):
Flights that were awarded when AC was a crown corporation, and which should be re-auctioned. AC hardly developed these routes....they were handed to AC on a platter and AC as a crown corporation held on to them.

Yes, finnaly someone with some sense, welcome to my respected user list!

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 27):
When AC was privatised, it wasnt anywhere near a monopoly. It had a competitor called Canadian, remember them?

Yes I do, they should have had to auction their LHR slots regardless!

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 28):
You can't compare actual stock prices. You can only compare relative stock performance. AC's initial stock class is now worthless.....since it fell into bankruptcy.

Again thank you, someone that understands basic finance concepts!

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 30):
Exactly! Very simple, 2 different companies in the same industry but with 2 different markets. Apples and oranges

Nope, apples and apples, no more excuses!
 
flyyul
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:27 pm

So following your logic, Air Transat is the preferred airline over Air Canada in the year 2004, as their financial statements showed more black ink?
 
markabcan
Posts: 199
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 34):
So following your logic, Air Transat is the preferred airline over Air Canada in the year 2004, as their financial statements showed more black ink?

No, I never said the most profitable airline is the preferred airline. However I did say that the biggest airline is not necessarily the preferred airline. Just because I can't fly Westjet to LHR or FRA does not make Air Canada the countries favorite airline as your logic suggests. I was also arguing that Air Canada's complicated cost structure is no excuse for them to continually lose money.

[Edited 2006-08-06 17:03:57]
 
sebring
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 11):

I agree....it's still tilted in AC's favour. It's actually WJ and others who are treated unfairly. AC benefits from the international route authorities of flying into LHR which were given to AC when it was a favoured crown corporation. Upon its privatization, these lucrative rights should have been re-auctioned.

And why is that? How many Crown corporations give away assets for nothing as part of their privatization. The whole point of privatization is to make money for the government.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 36):
And why is that? How many Crown corporations give away assets for nothing as part of their privatization.

AC received the LHR et al route authorities for free. Hence, they should be relinquished by AC at the same price. AC can rebid on them.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 36):
The whole point of privatization is to make money for the government.

No, it's not. The whole point of privatization is to create a level, competitive playing field for all private sector participants in that industry (whatever the industry is). Allowing the ex-crown corporation to retain route authorities ensures that the playing field remains tilted in AC's favour.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Olympus69
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:29 am

Unfortunately, I read this topic rather late in the day, but I would like to address a couple of the points raised :-

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 11):
The bilingual requirement could simply be ignored by AC. It is unenforceable

If this only affected Flight Attendants it might be true. However, every written document that AC issues has to be in two languages. This includes such things as technical manuals, and I am sure this requirement costs the airline a lot of money.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 11):
AC benefits from the international route authorities of flying into LHR which were given to AC when it was a favoured crown corporation. Upon its privatization, these lucrative rights should have been re-auctioned.

You have been going on about this for at least two years now, Neil, And I have never understood the logic behind it. No matter how the LHR slots were acquired, they became assets of the company, and without them Air Canada would have been worth considerably less when it was privatized. It would have made as much sense to auction off their maintenance facilities, or other assets.
 
markabcan
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:35 am

RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 38):
No matter how the LHR slots were acquired, they became assets of the company, and without them Air Canada would have been worth considerably less when it was privatized. It would have made as much sense to auction off their maintenance facilities, or other assets.

The difference is that maintenance facilities do not give them a significant and unearned competitive advantage,LHR slots do.
 
AC320tech
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:32 am

RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 33):
Profitability is key, not the amount of prestigeous destinations! Not enough people are chossing to fly Air Canada because thery are losing money in the long term!

Of course your going to loose money when your paying for something. Not enough people are choosing to fly AC? I hardly think that, considering the July Load Factors were an average of 83.6%

http://micro.newswire.ca/release.cgi...ey=1408030285&view=13213-0&Start=0

Which in any airline today, this is beyond good.

If you want to compare AC's LF's to WS, than WS got 81.3% last month, AC's YTD (Year to Date) LF's are 81.7% and WS has 78.9% average load factors.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 11):
I agree....it's still tilted in AC's favour. It's actually WJ and others who are treated unfairly. AC benefits from the international route authorities of flying into LHR which were given to AC when it was a favoured crown corporation. Upon its privatization, these lucrative rights should have been re-auctioned.

Pardon me, but it is WS, not WJ.

AC "benefits" because we have the 767, A330, and A340 (and if you want, back at the time of privatization, L1011, DC-8, 767), larger planes mean we can fly larger routes. Proposing such an idea of auctioning all the international routes is ridiculous.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 27):
When AC was privatised, it wasnt anywhere near a monopoly. It had a competitor called Canadian, remember them?

Exactly, if we didnt merge with Canadian, we wouldent have gotten all the routes in the pacific, that was part of the deal. The Government stated that AC could not get the routes in the Pacific if AC doesnt merge with Canadian.
 
markabcan
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:35 am

RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting AC320tech (Reply 40):
I hardly think that, considering the July Load Factors were an average of 83.6%

Good load factors itself is not the whole story. I stand by my comments. People are only willing to fly Air Canada at a low price, a price which is not suffiient to sustain the airline.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:49 am

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 41):
People are only willing to fly Air Canada at a low price, a price which is not suffiient to sustain the airline.

Absolute non-sense. Review your statement. Air Canada has many more loyal customers than WestJet.. common sense my friend.
 
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yyz717
Posts: 15689
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 42):
Quoting Markabcan (Reply 41):
People are only willing to fly Air Canada at a low price, a price which is not suffiient to sustain the airline.

Absolute non-sense. Review your statement. Air Canada has many more loyal customers than WestJet.. common sense my friend.

Markabcan is correct Mark. AC has NOT produced investment grade returns since its emergence from bankruptcy. Revenue is not covering and exceeding costs sufficiently. Hence, AC is not a sustainable business in the long term given its current financial performance.

The result will be a continuing long slow slide in market share year over year , with breakeven performance at best (as we are already witnessing), and in the event of an economic slowdown, likely significant financial losses and another CCAA filing.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
markabcan
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:35 am

RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 42):
Absolute non-sense. Review your statement. Air Canada has many more loyal customers than WestJet.. common sense my friend.

Nonsense, how so? The sheer number of loyal customers is not the point, the fare they're paying is what's important. Air Canada ended up under bankruptcy protection despite all these loyal customers. Common sense my friend.

[Edited 2006-08-06 17:56:12]
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:09 am

This is such a ridiculous argument. Anyway enjoy blowing out your brain on this, i'm out of this one.
 
9252fly
Posts: 814
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:29 am

Would anyone know when AC started service to London? It's probably fair to guess that it was 1946. As a crown corp,they would have started the route as an extension of government policy in the interests of all Canadians. The LHR slots formed an integral part of AC assets and were sold off to investors during AC privatization during the late 80's. I remember the government of the time announcing all Canadians could participate in purchase of shares. So you can conclude that they were auctioned off,only as part of a whole. There is nothing to stop any Canadian airline from flying to LHR,it's just that they would need to purchase slots. If you look at a lot of the world's major airlines(Excluding the USA),so many of them started out as government controlled airlines and never had their assets stripped to undermine the privatization of the airline in question. It would have been like stripping BA of all their LHR slots during it's privatization,absolutely insane! Lastly,Heathrow back in 1946,was simply a tent and grass airstrip. The name is apparently two words,Heath and Row,perhaps the name of the local village.

[Edited 2006-08-06 19:34:18]

[Edited 2006-08-06 19:36:46]
 
YULYMX
Posts: 734
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RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 11):
The AC YUL head office requirement is ridiculous. The HQ should be where the main hub is, in YYZ. AC could also draw on a much bigger pool of capable management in the YYZ market.

The bilingual requirement could simply be ignored by AC. It is unenforceable.

i think that the major hub should be where the head office is Smile
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7175
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 41):
People are only willing to fly Air Canada at a low price, a price which is not suffiient to sustain the airline.

I find it interesting how people seem to know what other people are willing to pay for a flight.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
markabcan
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:35 am

RE: AC VS WJ At YYC

Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 49):
I find it interesting how people seem to know what other people are willing to pay for a flight.

Well, they continue to lose money so I assure you it isn't enough

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