gayrugbyman
Posts: 1046
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:43 am

BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:16 pm

As I see it, BMI Baby have only added one new route in a year, namely Manchester to Perpignan.

Why are they not expanding in the same way LS, GSM and ZB are?
 
cwldude
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:17 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:35 pm

They're concentrating more on expanding through offering more extras, e.g. their in-flight magazine, select your seat, etc etc

I'm sure we'll see expansion coming from WW in the near future (or at least I hope so), otherqwise they'll be finding competing airlines will be getting all the passengers:

EMA - EZY
CWL - TOM at CWL; BA and EZY at BRS
MME - EZY and LS at NCL
BHX - BA, TOM
MAN - LS, BA & TOM at MAN, EZY at LPL
Thomson Airways - The UKs premier charter airline // now flown : BY -AA -AJ -AE -AT; OO -AX -AU -RA -BG; BRIG; OBYD
 
RedChili
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RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:03 pm

They don't feed him with enough milk. A baby needs a lot of milk to be able to grow.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
A340600MAN
Posts: 135
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RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:04 pm

Hi All

Don't forget FlyBe out of MAN. They have greatly increased their services over the last 6 months.

Belfast City 4 increasing to 5
Exeter 2
Norwich 2
Southampton 4

I'm spend a lot of time dealing with WW flights at work in MAN and most flights operate with very good loads.

Whoever thought of NQY as a destination is a genious. Always very good loads.
Fav aircraft has to be A340-600
 
Humberside
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RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:50 pm

I think bmi need to sell baby. bmi can the use the cash for some new long haul planes (and stop leasing the Arkefly B767's) and any new owners of baby may well be able to fund major fleet expansion and renewal, which bmi don't appear to have the cash too
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gayrugbyman
Posts: 1046
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RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:03 am

Such a genius, aren't they pulling it at the end of the summer?!
 
by738
Posts: 2426
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:59 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 4):

Since just after integrating Baby price structure into mainline, cant see any sell off happening any time soon. Unless a major player/ investor was to get onboard an independent Baby would struggle to finance a new fleet.
Overall Baby have dropped far more routes than theyve started.
 
AC320tech
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:32 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:05 am

I think it is because BMI is trying to rid the 737's from the fleet, and integrate the BMI baby routes with the mainline on the A320 and A319 as the 737 is out.
 
Humberside
Posts: 3223
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:44 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting BY738 (Reply 6):
Unless a major player/ investor was to get onboard an independent Baby would struggle to finance a new fleet.

A stock market floatation or venture capital could be an option
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16004
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RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting A340600MAN (Reply 3):
Whoever thought of NQY as a destination is a genious. Always very good loads.

You should be concentrating on yields. A route might generate 1 million customers, by what if each customer paid between 1p and £1? Evidently, it would be a disaster.

[Edited 2006-08-06 17:32:54]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
gilesdavies
Posts: 2271
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RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:14 am

I think BMI Baby are playing it safe for the moment and will for the forseeable future... With the Low Cost market in UK becoming increasingly saturated and new routes becoming increasingly difficult to operate without facing competition from another LCC they would rather stick to the routes they know that work.

Over the years we have seen a lot of routes come and go and in the last few months we seem to have seen some stabilty in the routes they operate.

With BMI Baby operating an aging fleet of 733's and 735's, these aircrafts are becoming increasingly more expensive to run while oil prices remain at record high and this have effect on the airlines profit margin. BMI Baby has only in the last year or two started making a profit and this profit has only been marginal...

I don't think BMI has the money or wants to spend the money on a fleet renewal plan for the airline, even though it would make sense for them to standardise the fleet with the A320 family of aircraft to bring in line with the mainline fleet.

In my humble opinion I don't think BMI Baby will be around for much longer and could well be soon up for sale if the price is right for BMI. The two likely buyers I am think of could be easyJet or Thomsonfly...

easyJet - This would give them access to BHX, MAN and CWL and would give them a presence at nearly every major regional airport in the UK. While increasing capacity at EMA and only a few of easyJet's routes overlap with BMI Baby.

Also with all the A319's on order - these could replace BMI Baby's fleet, and be placed on established routes as opposed to easyJet deploying their new fleet on new and untried routes and reduce their risk.

Thomsonfly - This would make them the largest LCC in the Midlands, if they had EMA, BHX and CVT all as bases. Also giving them access to the market in the Northwest by having a base at MAN.

Also the 733's and 735's will fit in perfectly with Thomsonfly's own fleet of the same aircraft within their Low Cost arm of the airline.
 
StarGoldLHR
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:29 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 10):
I don't think BMI has the money or wants to spend the money on a fleet renewal plan for the airline.

This statement reflects the truth...

BMI is 1 man who owns 51% and most of his personal wealth is the value of the airline itself, and 30% Lufthansa, and 20% SAS (who are looking to sell and have financial issues of their own).

LH arent going to put in loads of cash unless Michael Bishop does, for him to do that he will need to mortgage something, and with SAS wanting to sell it doesnt look good for this either.

Add to this the fact that BMI itself is losing both money and passengers everywhere, it's only BMIBaby thats making any money.. so selling the baby won't help
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
Ryanair737
Posts: 1364
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:14 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:25 am

The B737s won't be going any time soon, more 300s are expected next year. Yes they are ageing aircraft, but to be honest they don't need new aircraft for their low-cost operations. Having flown on 2 of them in June, they aren’t in too bad condition inside.

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 10):
I don't think BMI has the money or wants to spend the money on a fleet renewal plan for the airline, even though it would make sense for them to standardise the fleet with the A320 family of aircraft to bring in line with the mainline fleet.

That would be quite a task training a good load of B737 pilots on the Airbus; it's not going to happen. It would therefore prove easier (and faster) to introduce NG's into the baby fleet, but for the time being I really can't seeing them go to the expense. Simply isn't worth it.

Ryanair737
LAST FLIGHTS= Ryanair LPL-BGY-LPL - EI-DPS/DWV - MAY 08 // NEXT FLIGHTS= TBC
 
mhodgson
Posts: 4673
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 8:47 pm

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting GayrugbyMAN (Reply 5):
Such a genius, aren't they pulling it at the end of the summer?!

Perhaps because no-one wants to go there in winter? It is mainly a summer holiday destination at the end of the day, and while London may be able to retain traffic year round with a 737, MAN probably cannot. Hence Air Southwest operate year round with an aircraft much more suited to lower loads.
No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
 
Humberside
Posts: 3223
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:44 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:08 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 10):
easyJet - This would give them access to BHX, MAN and CWL and would give them a presence at nearly every major regional airport in the UK. While increasing capacity at EMA and only a few of easyJet's routes overlap with BMI Baby

The competition authorities would have a field day, and not only about NEMA

CWL/BRS
NCL/MME
MAN/LPL

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 10):
Thomsonfly - This would make them the largest LCC in the Midlands, if they had EMA, BHX and CVT all as bases. Also giving them access to the market in the Northwest by having a base at MAN.

I could see this being quite a good fit. TOM are focusing on CWL, NEMA and MAN as part of their new high frequency scheduled flights plans from key airports. And they also have charter bases at MME and BHX. Would seem to me that TOM and bmi baby would be a very good fit
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egmcman
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 14):
Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 10):
easyJet - This would give them access to BHX, MAN and CWL and would give them a presence at nearly every major regional airport in the UK. While increasing capacity at EMA and only a few of easyJet's routes overlap with BMI Baby

The competition authorities would have a field day, and not only about NEMA

CWL/BRS
NCL/MME
MAN/LPL

As FR operates hubs from LTN & STN I don't think there is a problem. Ultimately any sale would depend on the balance sheet of WW and if the management of WW/BD and any buyer could agree on a price.
 
jamesontheroad
Posts: 392
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:52 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11):

Add to this the fact that BMI itself is losing both money and passengers everywhere, it's only BMIBaby thats making any money.. so selling the baby won't help

It would certainly be stupid to throw the baby out with the bath water...

Sorry, couldn't resist...  duck 

Remember AC Tango? Started as a separate entity, and then gradually merged back into AC Mainline as a fare option. bmi made a mistake calling their lowest class of fares 'tiny fares' when 'baby fares' would have made a possible transition back into mainline (a la Tango) much smoother. I still reckon this could be a possible development in the future, although it probably hurts bmi bad to know that bmibaby has a stronger brand now than bmi itself.

*j*
 
Humberside
Posts: 3223
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:44 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting Egmcman (Reply 15):
As FR operates hubs from LTN & STN I don't think there is a problem

Wit the exception of Buzz, that was organic growth which the compeition authorities can't do much about. Any Easyjet takeover of bmi baby wouldn't be organic growth
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
egmcman
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:55 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 17):
Wit the exception of Buzz, that was organic growth which the compeition authorities can't do much about. Any Easyjet takeover of bmi baby wouldn't be organic growth

The same could be said of U2 when they bought Go.
 
padster
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:03 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:05 am

well the BMI (and baby ) pilots and balpa would have a lots to say about the pay deals that bmi management are proposing at the moment .. so it would not be the same as go ...
 
ryanair0pk
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:36 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:49 am

Personally i think they are thinking too much about in cabin things eg magazines and gifts etc..

I was gutted that there was no BHX-NQY service this summer! i used that 5 or 6 times last year it saves the 3 or 4 hour car journey and its flying! They now only operate teeside and manchester to newquay... Newquay wasa popular destination from birmingham too , the flights were always full..


{PK}
 
cwldude
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:17 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:56 am

bmiBaby certainly really need to do something before TOM and EZY give them a run for their money.

TOM are going to announce a low-cost CWL base next year, and EZY are forever expanding at BRS, they've now announced CDG which is a route bmiBaby could easily have made work from CWL if they used their own aircraft insted of 6G.

As far as EMA is concerned, as said TOM are concentrating on it for their high frequency summer destinations, and EZY are doing really well there too!

LS will run them out of the water at MAN without any problems, they're proving to be an excellent low-cost airline and will grow very much over the coming years!

If bmi don't start shifting soon, they're gonna find bmiBaby losing their passengers to the better opponents.
Thomson Airways - The UKs premier charter airline // now flown : BY -AA -AJ -AE -AT; OO -AX -AU -RA -BG; BRIG; OBYD
 
Humberside
Posts: 3223
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:44 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:42 pm

Quoting Cwldude (Reply 21):
TOM are going to announce a low-cost CWL base next year, and EZY are forever expanding at BRS, they've now announced CDG which is a route bmiBaby could easily have made work from CWL if they used their own aircraft insted of 6G.

Maybe TOM will do CWL-ORY?
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
Eurohub
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:11 pm

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:35 pm

Quoting Jamesontheroad (Reply 16):
bmi made a mistake calling their lowest class of fares 'tiny fares' when 'baby fares' would have made a possible transition back into mainline (a la Tango) much smoother.

Ah, but the "baby" is called Tiny!
Forget A vs B - Give me E or BAe any day of the week!
 
cwldude
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:17 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:18 pm

Quoting Humberside (Reply 22):

I really do hope so

I know they're offering the same high frequency routes to PMI, AGP, IBZ, TFS and ALC.

Would like to see them adding ORY, PSA, BCN, and maybe VLC!
Thomson Airways - The UKs premier charter airline // now flown : BY -AA -AJ -AE -AT; OO -AX -AU -RA -BG; BRIG; OBYD
 
StarGoldLHR
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:29 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:00 pm

Maybe one option is for bmi to offload it's A320's to BMI baby and sell the 737's.

Then buy a buy of ERJ's for it's bmi operation to reflect it's shrinking passenger base.

bmi can write off some losses to bmibaby
bmi baby gets new aircraft
bmi gets more affordable aircraft.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
bmibaby737
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:07 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:21 pm

I have heared rumours of BmiBaby flying into Southampton, although how true this may be I do not know.
 
Ryanair737
Posts: 1364
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:14 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 25):
Maybe one option is for bmi to offload it's A320's to BMI baby and sell the 737's.

Then buy a buy of ERJ's for it's bmi operation to reflect it's shrinking passenger base.

As I have said above, bmibaby is still receiving B737s. They aren't in the immediate future looking for any replacement for them. As I also said baby have a big batch of B737 flight crew, to train them on the Airbus is probably going to cost them more than its worth.

To be honest I think they know how to run the company, I can't believe people on this thread are actually discussing the sale of the airline!

Ryanair737
LAST FLIGHTS= Ryanair LPL-BGY-LPL - EI-DPS/DWV - MAY 08 // NEXT FLIGHTS= TBC
 
ZBA320
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:36 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:48 am

Are they getting the rest of the ex-easyJet B733s or have EZY got rid of them all now?
An Engineer made a bet that a 747 Gear wouldn't retract in a Hangar. He lost the bet.
 
planesarecool
Posts: 3208
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:52 am

Why do BMI Baby need to replace their fleet? The B737-300/500 is one of the most widely used aircraft for low cost operations across the globe. They offer about the right amount of seats, have adequate range for the routes it flies, are cheap to buy/lease. WW's models aren't even that old, with some being built just 8 years ago.

When you don't have the money that easyJet, Ryanair and Southwest have, the B737-3/500's are perfect.
 
anstar
Posts: 2868
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 4):
I think bmi need to sell baby

They need to combine them under one brand again as they are now both Low Cost carriers. Get rid of the 733's and stick with an all 320/319 fleet for short haul
 
StarGoldLHR
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:29 am

RE: BMI Baby - Why No Expansion?

Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:55 am

bmi mostly operates from the midlands...

I wouldnt be surprised to see a teenage pregnancy here and see a bmi baby spawn it's own baby airline.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY

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