PavlovsDog
Topic Author
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:28 am

3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:11 am

Going through Airchive.com I read that National Airlines began service from London Heathrow in June 1970. From that date until's National's merger with Pan Am in 1980 there were three US carriers flying to Heathrow with TWA being the 3rd airline.

What happened after that date that prohibited another carrier from beginning operations to Heathrow?
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:17 am

Quoting PavlovsDog (Thread starter):
What happened after that date that prohibited another carrier from beginning operations to Heathrow?

Bermuda II
International Homo of Mystery
 
kaddyuk
Posts: 3697
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:04 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:17 am

Quoting PavlovsDog (Thread starter):
What happened after that date that prohibited another carrier from beginning operations to Heathrow?

National had Grandfather rights to operate, much like Kuwait and Air India currently operate to New York...

Read More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_II

[Edited 2006-08-06 21:18:19]
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:20 am

How about

Quote:
Bermuda II is a Bilateral Air Transport Agreement between the governments of the United Kingdom and the United States signed on July 23, 1977 as a renegotiation of the 1946 Bermuda Agreement, which restricts air service from London Airports to the United States. Bermuda II has been revised several times since its signing. As a highly restrictive agreement it contrasts with the principle of open skies.

And there are THREE US airlines serving LHR today - I'll give you a hint, they don't all carry passengers!
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13384
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:20 am

Ah, National Airlines at Heathrow!

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Brimley
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Brimley



Don't forget Delta!

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Brimley

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13072
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 2):
National had Grandfather rights to operate, much like Kuwait and Air India currently operate to New York...

Don't forget NZ with their full 5th freedom rights for LAX-LHR.
 
ARGinLON
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:26 pm

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:26 am

Bermuda II aslo says:

American and British regulatory authorities must approve airline's pricing.

What do they mean by this? I don't really think this happens.....
 
Humberside
Posts: 3223
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:44 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 3):
And there are THREE US airlines serving LHR today - I'll give you a hint, they don't all carry passengers!

I take it you mean DHL as the 3rd carrier - but aren't their flights operated by their Belgium subsidary European Air Transport?
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting ARGinLON (Reply 6):
American and British regulatory authorities must approve airline's pricing.

What do they mean by this? I don't really think this happens...

I'm not sure when/if the regs on this were relaxed, but fares used to be highly scrutinized!

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...A962948260&sec=travel&pagewanted=1
International Homo of Mystery
 
RayPettit
Posts: 602
Joined: Sun May 26, 2002 9:04 pm

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:43 am

Remember, Delta's flights were really Pan American's.

Rather like Northwest.
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4464
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting RayPettit (Reply 9):
Rather like Northwest

???????
 
FI642
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:48 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:09 am

Interchange service.

PanAm crews flew the Delta birds on routes Delta didn't have
route authority for.

Before deregulation even some domestic U.S. routes were flown that way.
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting FI642 (Reply 11):
PanAm crews flew the Delta birds on routes Delta didn't have
route authority for.

PA did interline service for NW, DL and BN to LHR. (Did I miss any?)
International Homo of Mystery
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:17 am

The Delta flights at LHR operated ATL-IAD-LHR.......the only way back then to provide direct service between the ATL hub and London; the flight was operated on an interchange basis with Pan Am and the "Delta flight" into London actually carried a Pan Am flight number......the good old days.

National flew the MIA-LHR route for years, with DC8s, then 741s and finally DC10-30s. Nonstop service from Miami to London was a very big deal back then.
 
lhrmaccoll
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:12 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:28 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 7):
And there are THREE US airlines serving LHR today - I'll give you a hint, they don't all carry passengers!

I take it you mean DHL as the 3rd carrier

DHL is owned by Deutsche Post, they are certainly not a USA company anymore...
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7071
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:44 am

Today UA and AA serve it. I think UPS runs charters to there. Not sure.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
AA623BDLSJU
Posts: 345
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2003 2:16 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:42 am

Well after October only AA will be the only US carrier offering passenger service to LHR. UA has sold their London slots to DL. However, DL cannot serve LHR as of yet, because they are not on the Bermuda II agreement. DL will commence service JFK-LGW later in the year and a 2nd flight will begin in 2007.
 
tymnbalewne
Posts: 714
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:06 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:48 am

Quoting AA623BDLSJU (Reply 16):
Well after October only AA will be the only US carrier offering passenger service to LHR. UA has sold their London slots to DL. However, DL cannot serve LHR as of yet, because they are not on the Bermuda II agreement. DL will commence service JFK-LGW later in the year and a 2nd flight will begin in 2007.

I believe DL only purchased JFK-LON. Won't UA will still fly IAD, ORD to LHR?

C.
Dewmanair...begins with Dew
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:52 am

DL only purchased JFK-LGW authority,no LHR slots were sold.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
BigGSFO
Posts: 2214
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:27 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:25 am

FYI:

http://airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/2905784

http://airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/2915183

Recent discussions about the UA-DL London transaction, Bermuda 2, and who has the rights to Heathrow....
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:26 am

Quoting AA623BDLSJU (Reply 16):
Well after October only AA will be the only US carrier offering passenger service to LHR. UA has sold their London slots to DL.

Wrong!!! UA only sold its NYC-LON-NYC route authority to DL. However DL does not have any access to LHR under Bermuda II.

UA still serves LHR from IAD, ORD, LAX and SFO with several daily flights and will remain one of two US carriers (AA being the other one) at LHR.

Best regards

L1011Lover
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:09 pm

Quoting FI642 (Reply 11):
Interchange service.

PanAm crews flew the Delta birds on routes Delta didn't have
route authority for.

Before deregulation even some domestic U.S. routes were flown that way.

and after dereg.....like AA/AS on SEA-ANC routes...for years.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
express1
Posts: 847
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:08 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:43 pm

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 20):

they might want to start looking into scraping the Burmuda II. I cannot see the point. Its stopping airlines who want to use airports like LHR to extend their services and to make airlines more profitable?, i also hurd that LHR is a much easy connection for passengers into central London than it is from LGW.

dave
David.S cavanagh since 1961,if you can do better,then show me.
 
lhrmaccoll
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:12 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:48 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 15):
Today UA and AA serve it. I think UPS runs charters to there. Not sure.

UPS don't serve Heathrow
Alex
 
FURUREFA
Posts: 635
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:26 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:52 pm

Quoting Express1 (Reply 22):

they might want to start looking into scraping the Burmuda II. I cannot see the point. Its stopping airlines who want to use airports like LHR to extend their services and to make airlines more profitable?, i also hurd that LHR is a much easy connection for passengers into central London than it is from LGW.

dave

What about the the airlines in Bermuda II, wouldn't they want to keep their service to LHR with minimum competition?

Matt
 
SAA346
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:00 pm

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:05 pm

Quoting Lhrmaccoll (Reply 14):

DHL quickly devolved into a global company in the 80's, headquartered LHR then BRU leaving the country operating company (plc, inc etc...) in the US. AFAIK DHL's US bound material ex the UK is operated ex EMA with only connex to BRU ex LHR
 
SR800
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:57 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:20 pm

If I recall correctly, didn't Eastern operate to LHR from MIA with DC10s for a while...around 1981?
 
bistro1200
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2003 7:13 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:47 pm

Quoting ARGinLON (Reply 6):
American and British regulatory authorities must approve airline's pricing.
What do they mean by this? I don't really think this happens.....

I can assure you, it does happen right now and they are very thorough.
Measure to the millimeter, mark with a crayon, cut with an axe.
 
tsnamm
Posts: 531
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 3:28 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:53 pm

Quoting SR800 (Reply 26):
If I recall correctly, didn't Eastern operate to LHR from MIA with DC10s for a while...around 1981?

Actually it was MIA-LGW...which CO "inherited" when EA went out of business...CO then stopped the route in the early 90's...MIA not being a CO hub....
 
CRFLY
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:06 pm

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:45 am

Very Interesting... But I have a question: How did AA and UA gained access to LHR after buying the slots of TW and PA respectively, and now DL can't gain access to LHR after buying the UA slots? Thanks!
With Age comes Wisdom...
 
commavia
Posts: 9744
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting CRFLY (Reply 29):
Very Interesting... But I have a question: How did AA and UA gained access to LHR after buying the slots of TW and PA respectively, and now DL can't gain access to LHR after buying the UA slots? Thanks!

AA and United didn't just buy slots at Heathrow -- they also purchased the actual route authorities that allowed them to fly into and out of Heathrow. Delta, by contrast, did not buy the latter, and instead has acquired only the route authority to fly from New York to London. Because they do not have the specific route authority to fly to Heathrow, they must fly from JFK to Gatwick instead of Heathrow.
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4306
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 28):
Actually it was MIA-LGW...which CO "inherited" when EA went out of business...CO then stopped the route in the early 90's...MIA not being a CO hub....

That was a GREAT 6 day trip!!!
You can't cure stupid
 
PavlovsDog
Topic Author
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:28 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:02 am

I still havent' read any specifics of why the numbers of US passenger carries to Heathrow was reduced from 3 to 2 upon National's absorption into Pan Am. Was there no outcry or lobbying from other US airlines?

Does anyone recall the events surrounding this change in the bi-lateral?
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:17 am

I remember at the time that National was granted the rights to fly MIA-LHR, it was a one-off amendment to Bermuda II and most people had expected that Pan Am would be granted the route, including the Pan Am Station Manager at LHR. The US Government instead awarded the right to operate to National, and that is why for a short while there were three US airlines permitted to fly into/from LHR, albeit National was restricted on the LHR/MIA route.

Pan Am took over National but if my memory serves me correctly, they were not allowed to continue LHR-MIA. The service moved to LGW and Air Florida took over the route and Laker Skytrain being the second UK carrier also commenced services on the route. Air Florida folded and for a brief time Arrow Air operated the service before bailing out as well. Laker also folded and the route eventually went over to Branson's Virgin.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4464
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting CRFLY (Reply 29):
and now DL can't gain access to LHR after buying the UA slots? Thanks!

One more time, DL did not buy the UA slots at LHR. It bought the route from New York to London only. Since DL does not have the authority to fly to LHR it has to use the authority to LGW!!
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: 3 US Airlines At Heathrow

Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 33):
I remember at the time that National was granted the rights to fly MIA-LHR, it was a one-off amendment to Bermuda II and most people had expected that Pan Am would be granted the route, including the Pan Am Station Manager at LHR.

National began nonstop service from MIA to LHR in June 1970. Bermuda II didn't come into being until July 1977.
International Homo of Mystery

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aab498, avi, calpsafltskeds, dk44, dmstorm22, DTWPurserBoy, exunited, FAST Enterprise [Crawler], FergYVR, fsafsx, iahcsr, iuwnaa, KarelXWB, medic610, Miguel1982, MrBren, n757kw, SInGAPORE_AIR, VS11, wagz, william and 411 guests