flamedude707
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:41 am

AA And Cancelling Flights

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:22 pm

Last week, I was traveling SJC-ORD-EWR on American. At ORD, American decided to cancel the flight into Newark. They gave some unclear reason but someone on te AA staff believed it was due to " traffic congestion". So if they have too many flights they just decide to cancel at random? At the re-booking desk, some obnoxious lady just handed us a 1 800 number and told us to deal with the problem ourselves. They were not wiling to even tell you what flights they had later on. The part that really upset me was that they said that they were not responsible for paying for a hotel, finding you a hotel, arranging transportation to a hotel, or helping you find another flight through the airport staff. AA said that they were not responsible for their customers beyond the flight. This is ridiculous, especially when UA, AA's main competitor at ORD, was willing to give all of their cancelled flight's passengers hotels and transportation complementary. My question is, shouldn't AA be responsible for passengers they are serving, especially when they screw up travel plans for BS reasons? My second question is, why doesn't AA and UA fly bigger planes on high congestion routes? That day, there were over 100 passenger's on the standby for every AA flight from ORD to the east coast including, JFK, EWR, LGA, ABE, BWI, IAD and they are sitting there flying MD-80's that just dont have the capacity to properly fly that route. The same situation was going on with UA.
Time you enjoy wasting, is not wasted.
 
jetBlue
Posts: 347
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:40 pm

Welcome to ORD operations. When ORD weather is combined with east coast weather and ATC delays, flights get cancelled left and right.

And no, United does not provide complimentary hotels to their stranded passengers when there are ATC delays and cancellations. Trust me, when I lived in Indiana I worked for United and that was not the case with our ORD flights. I can just guarantee you that if UA has ATC cancellations they are not shuttling all their passengers to the nearest hotel with a free night's stay. AA will not pay either, as they are literally obligated to cancel a certain number of departures when the ATC holds/delays are lengthy.

This day and age, especially during the summer, flights are full. Get used to it. Weather happens and they cancel a flight with 130 people on it? Yes, you'll see a long standby list.

It would be nice if AA and UA had 777s lying around ready to fly ORD-LGA in case there is a weather/ATC cancellation.

Right. That would make perfect sense. Dream on!

I'm sorry you had a bad experience flying through Chicago during ATC congestion. Hopefully a future flight through ORD will be on a less hectic day!

jetBlue
We know for you it's not just a seat on a flight to a place. It's a seat on a flight to your life.
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:42 pm

Quoting Flamedude707 (Thread starter):
So if they have too many flights they just decide to cancel at random?

Yup.. Welcome to flying in the northeast. Cancelled flights due to traffic congestion is a very-very common event in at JFK-EWR-LGA airports. Just too many planes, not enough space. Are they responsable...? Better read your ticket jacket next time.

[Edited 2006-08-07 05:44:46]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
ejmmsu
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:45 pm

It still amazes me why connecitng passengers choose ORD when other hub airports are much better choices as far as minimizng the chances of a delay/cancelled flight. Should have flown through DFW
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3657
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:00 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
Better read your ticket jacket next time.



Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 3):
It still amazes me why connecitng passengers choose ORD

Connecting passengers choose ORD because Expedia/Orbitz or their travel agent tells them to. The ticket jacket doesn't say "Don't connect at ORD, go to DFW." UA would be out of business if it did. Expedia would be cut off from UA and AA if it gave its customers a warning about the risks of connecting at ORD.
So how are the less... seasoned travellers among us supposed to know that ORD isn't an ideal place to get a connecting flight? Just because the information is out there doesn't mean that everyone knows about it.

Besides, the problems are generally seasonal. I've had much more success than failure connecting at ORD over the years. I just don't tempt my luck in the summer, unless I really need to.
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
flamedude707
Posts: 220
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:25 pm

Trust me..., I know what ORD traffic is like. I have flown through ORD several times, and have had delays of from an hour to 5 hours almost half the time. Though, just because they cancel one flight, it should not mean that every flight to the east cast whithin the next four hours has astandby list of 50+. If airlines know ATC will hold delays, why do they scedules many fights out of that airport. Shouldn't AA try to shift some of their connecting operations to ST. Louis to free up congestion. It is in the same general location.
Time you enjoy wasting, is not wasted.
 
jetbluefan1
Posts: 2869
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:39 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:31 pm

Quoting Flamedude707 (Reply 5):
Shouldn't AA try to shift some of their connecting operations to ST. Louis to free up congestion. It is in the same general location.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

To me it does seem unfair that AA wouldn't even pay for hotel accommodations. ATC is a bitch - I know, I live in New York - but if the airport cannot handle the traffic,then something needs to be done to cut it down. While it isn't completely AA's fault that the flight was canceled, overall it sort of was in that they scheduled too many flights at an airport that frequently has such problems (well, at least according to this thread, that is). Wouldn't one think that by now AA realized what a mess ORD is in the summer and they would have therefore scheduled their flights accordingly?

That's just my opinion; take it or leave it.

JetBluefan1
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:48 pm

I

Quoting Flamedude707 (Thread starter):
The part that really upset me was that they said that they were not responsible for paying for a hotel, finding you a hotel, arranging transportation to a hotel, or helping you find another flight through the airport staff. AA said that they were not responsible for their customers beyond the flight. This is ridiculous, especially when UA, AA's main competitor at ORD, was willing to give all of their cancelled flight's passengers hotels and transportation complementary. My question is, shouldn't AA be responsible for passengers they are serving, especially when they screw up travel plans for BS reasons?

bla bla bla

it's all in the airline's Contract of Carriage. Neither American or United provide hotels or meals when connections are missed due to circumstances beyond their control. Weather and Air Traffic Control are both beyond anyone's control and the airlines assume no liability for any expenses incurred by the customer as a result of either. Whether or not you believe the airline's excuse for not operating as YOU expected is your opinion. If you think you are dealing with an disreputable firm that would lie to its customers, choose another airline next time.

It's a rough world out there. You've got to be prepared to pay your own way.

This summer in particular, flights are so heavily booked that if a customer misses a connection, there are frequently no seats available on a confirmed basis for two days OR MORE.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:50 pm

I flew AA SJC-ORD just yesterday... biggrin 

anyway....AA isn't responsible for weather delays....if you are a Platinum, ExecPlatinum flyer, you might be able to get some extra help..but forget about the free hotel...
"Up the Irons!"
 
NorthstarBoy
Posts: 1416
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:32 pm

on the issue of getting a hotel room when you're flight is delayed or canceled due to no fault of your own.....
what most people don't realize is that you can ask for a distressed passenger rate from the airlines, this gives you a voucher for a local hotel good for either a significant discount or a comped room, generally you have to ask for it, the airline won't volunteer it and you're at the mercy of the airline as to which hotel you're at. i deal quite frequently with passengers whose flights have been delayed and or canceled and if they don't want to shell out the money for a hotel i'll suggest they ask for this.

I also think it's rather apalling how little responsibility the airlines take nowadays for their customers when it comes to adversity. I realize that the airline has no control over weather, i also realize that flights nowadays are booked completely solid, so reaccomodating passengers from delayed and canceled flights becomes a mission impossible sometimes, just because the seats aren't there, i even go so far as to realize that airlines cannot generally pull spare aircraft out of thin air to accomodate stranded passengers and of course they're not going to bump today's passengers to accommodate yesterday's strandees, maybe the airlines should consider taking all those aircraft sitting in the desert, baking away and waiting to be turned into soda/beer cans, get them back into a semblance of airworthiness and form some kind of reserve fleet that can be activated with very short notice to provide the extra capacity needed. or at the very least, airlines should start cooperating with one another and abandon the whole policiy of not interlining passengers who are affected by "acts of god" not to mention get back into the habit of proactively reprotecting passengers, rather than just "send them to the ticket counter"

just my 2 cents
Yes, I'd like to see airbus go under so Boeing can have their customers!
 
flightopsguy
Posts: 299
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:40 pm

EWR is the problem. Too many flights scheduled after 12 Noon every day. Even with perfect weather, delays are likely. Look at the Airport Arrival Demand Chart on www.fly.faa.gov. Any little weather blip and major delays result.

ORD is very fragile ATC-wise when there is weather in the midwest or between ORD and the eastcoast.

When de-regulation of the airlines became law back in the 1970's, rules regarding re-accomodation of pax were loosened, as a trade off for unregulated, and lower airfares.
A300-330 BAC111/146/J31/41 B99/1900 CV580 B707-777 DC8/9/10 L188/1011 FH227/28/100 SB340 DO228 EMB2/170 CR2-900 SH330-60
 
commavia
Posts: 9797
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:45 pm

Quoting Flamedude707 (Thread starter):
So if they have too many flights they just decide to cancel at random?

They don't just "cancel at random." It was done for a very specific reason.

Quoting Flamedude707 (Thread starter):
The part that really upset me was that they said that they were not responsible for paying for a hotel, finding you a hotel, arranging transportation to a hotel

ATC and/or weather are outside of American's control. If a flight cancels for a mechanical, strike, walk-out, etc. -- they provide you with accomodation. For weather, ATC, acts of God, orders from government -- you're on your own.

Quoting Flamedude707 (Thread starter):
My question is, shouldn't AA be responsible for passengers they are serving, especially when they screw up travel plans for BS reasons?

It's hardly a B.S. reason. ATC and weather are completely out of AA's control.

Quoting Flamedude707 (Reply 5):
If airlines know ATC will hold delays, why do they scedules many fights out of that airport.

If people know that the airport will be busier and more congested at 5pm, and thus more delays are likely at that time, why do they still insist on flying then?

Quoting Flamedude707 (Reply 5):
Shouldn't AA try to shift some of their connecting operations to ST. Louis to free up congestion. It is in the same general location.

AA should try and do whatever is in its best interests. Obviously, AA has determined thus far that living with delays at O'Hare, and the tens of millions in added costs it no doubt brings each year is more economically viable than shifting flights to St. Louis. Now, this may change in the future, and perhaps you will see more and more flying shift to St. Louis. For the moment, though, O'Hare is pretty much what you get.

Hopefully things will improve there once the airfield is reconfigured, sometime in 2048.
 
jm017
Posts: 780
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:01 pm

Quoting Flamedude707 (Thread starter):
At the re-booking desk, some obnoxious lady just handed us a 1 800 number and told us to deal with the problem ourselves. They were not wiling to even tell you what flights they had later on.

This is the part that really bugs me. That they didn't provde accommodations, well that's unfortunate, but the reason for the cancellation is beyond the airline's immediate control. But to NOT offer rebooking assistance? Bad.
"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:17 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 11):
ATC and/or weather are outside of American's control. If a flight cancels for a mechanical, strike, walk-out, etc. -- they provide you with accomodation. For weather, ATC, acts of God, orders from government -- you're on your own.

For weather, ATC, acts of God, orders from government, can we at least write the hotel expenses off as a tax break?  Wink
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
contrails
Posts: 1312
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:18 pm

Sounds like a bummer of a trip. I used to fly via ORD all the time, but now I book my AA flights via DFW whenever possible.

Obviously, neither your nor AA have any control over the weather or many other factors that can impede flights. But you are, imo, entitled to a reasonable level of customer service. There's no reason why AA couldn't have explained the situation to you with a professional demeanor; tried to find alternative transportation, on another carrier if necessary; and made every effort to make your delay as short and pleasant as possible.

There's no way to get compensation for the delay if it was due to weather or other forces outside of AA's control; but you should complain vigorously in writing (not email, imo) to AA about the lousy customer service. Be as specific as possible, providing flight numbers, times, gates, names - if you have any, and how you were treated. Include copies of your boarding passes and/or tickets. If your first letter doesn't get a response write a second one - and keep writing. Send it to: AA Customer Relations, P.O. Box 619612 MD 2400, DFW Airport, TX 75261-9612. (I've had to use this address a few times myself.)

Sub-standard customer service is not acceptable.
Flying Colors Forever!
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting Contrails (Reply 14):
Sounds like a bummer of a trip. I used to fly via ORD all the time, but now I book my AA flights via DFW whenever possible.

DFW during the summer is just as bad (ok, not as bad, but close)....I try to avoid DFW during the summers because of thunderstorms...
"Up the Irons!"
 
ejmmsu
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:05 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
DFW during the summer is just as bad (ok, not as bad, but close)....I try to avoid DFW during the summers because of thunderstorms...

My father lives near DFW, and I grew up around there. There hasn't been more than a trace of rain in the past 2 months, and that really isn't that uncommon for this time of year.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
flamedude707
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:41 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:26 am

SO it has been said that in the summer, ailrines know there flights will be overbooked. Then why don't they assign a larger plane? Are they completely short of planes? I just don't understand why they insist on flying MD-80's that dont hold enough?
Time you enjoy wasting, is not wasted.
 
dartland
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:09 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
DFW during the summer is just as bad (ok, not as bad, but close)....I try to avoid DFW during the summers because of thunderstorms...

I disagree. Yes, there are passing thunderstorms (mostly in late spring, early summer), but even those go by quickly. DFW has 7 (yes SEVEN) runways and plenty of acreage (as well as sky-space) to handle it. Congestion delays there are very rare (sure, you'll taxi for 25 minutes, but that's better than a cancelled flight or waiting for an hour to take-off!)


As for this whole miss-connection discussion -- my girlfriend got a free hotel room at ATL for a missed FL connection a few weeks ago. 1-night free at the Crowne Plaza (not too shabby!) next to the airport. Her and everyone else who missed their connection waited in line for 20-30 minutes and got their vouchers. It sucked, but at least FL ponied up with accommodations. Not sure why her flight was late (weather was not bad), but pretty sure it was just congestion that created a chain-reaction throughout the day and led to a late arrival and subsequent departure from her origin.

Anyways, point being -- no mechanical failure or walk-out, and yet FL gave a hotel room. Sounds like once again, we have an LCC out-spending a network carrier.
 
ssides
Posts: 3248
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 12:57 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 6):
While it isn't completely AA's fault that the flight was canceled, overall it sort of was in that they scheduled too many flights at an airport that frequently has such problems (well, at least according to this thread, that is). Wouldn't one think that by now AA realized what a mess ORD is in the summer and they would have therefore scheduled their flights accordingly?

To do this in any meaningful way would require them to organize schedules with other airlines. While the DoJ has given the airlines some ability to do this recently, there are still a myriad of antitrust issues surrounding this practice.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 9):
maybe the airlines should consider taking all those aircraft sitting in the desert, baking away and waiting to be turned into soda/beer cans, get them back into a semblance of airworthiness and form some kind of reserve fleet that can be activated with very short notice to provide the extra capacity needed.

If your average passenger would be willing to pay more than $250 for a round-trip ticket, airlines would have the financial ability to do this. It took parking those planes in the desert and getting load factors up to 90% for the airlines to break even. They can't be expected to dump excess capacity on the market if it means they'll lose money.

Quoting Jm017 (Reply 12):
But to NOT offer rebooking assistance? Bad.

I agree.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
DFW during the summer is just as bad (ok, not as bad, but close)....I try to avoid DFW during the summers because of thunderstorms...

DFW might be bad for two months out of the year -- August and September. All things considered, it's nowhere near the nightmare that ORD is. There is slightly less traffic, and more runway capacity to bring things back online after a delay. You are much, much less likely to get a cancellation due to delay at DFW than you are at ORD.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
commavia
Posts: 9797
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
DFW during the summer is just as bad (ok, not as bad, but close)....I try to avoid DFW during the summers because of thunderstorms...

You must have had bad luck. In my experience, D/FW is one of the easiest and best airports to transit through in terms of weather/congestion issues. With 7 non-intersecting runways, it pretty much takes a tornado to shut down the entire airfield at D/FW.
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting Flamedude707 (Thread starter):
Last week, I was traveling SJC-ORD-EWR on American.

My two cents worth; fly non-stop, from the bay area several flights operate non-stop to EWR.
 
flamedude707
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:41 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:42 am

I had $400 vouchers from AA so I took what they gave me. They didn't offer a non-stop. Usually, I fly UA SFO-PHL.
Time you enjoy wasting, is not wasted.
 
jetBlue
Posts: 347
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 9):
maybe the airlines should consider taking all those aircraft sitting in the desert, baking away and waiting to be turned into soda/beer cans, get them back into a semblance of airworthiness and form some kind of reserve fleet that can be activated with very short notice to provide the extra capacity needed

Bringing aircraft back from the desert just to be sitting around waiting for cancellations would be very expensive and counter-productive. These ATC/weather problems result from too many planes scheduled to an airport when there are delays in effect. What good would extra planes do? Plus, if an airline is going to bring back planes from storage, they will be for scheduled flights and expansion.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 9):
airlines should start cooperating with one another and abandon the whole policiy of not interlining passengers who are affected by "acts of god" not to mention get back into the habit of proactively reprotecting passengers, rather than just "send them to the ticket counter"

Airlines do cooperate with one another when irregular operations are in effect. There ia a Rule 120/240 that protects passengers on other carriers when problems arise. The reason you won't see much interlining of tickets with an ATC situation is that the other airlines are facing the same problems and more than likely have no available seats, either.

jetBlue
We know for you it's not just a seat on a flight to a place. It's a seat on a flight to your life.
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting Flamedude707 (Reply 17):
Then why don't they assign a larger plane?

Are you kidding? The bigger plane will be booked until it too is oversold. Bigger planes are oversold by a greater number of seats too usually. That is when it gets annoying. What airlines may have to start considering is not overselling flights during specific periods. I can justify it in off periods, but summer time, the seats are usually booked and sold.
There is something special about planes....
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 16):

My father lives near DFW, and I grew up around there. There hasn't been more than a trace of rain in the past 2 months, and that really isn't that uncommon for this time of year.



Quoting Dartland (Reply 18):
I disagree. Yes, there are passing thunderstorms (mostly in late spring, early summer), but even those go by quickly. DFW has 7 (yes SEVEN) runways and plenty of acreage (as well as sky-space) to handle it. Congestion delays there are very rare (sure, you'll taxi for 25 minutes, but that's better than a cancelled flight or waiting for an hour to take-off!)



Quoting Ssides (Reply 19):
DFW might be bad for two months out of the year -- August and September. All things considered, it's nowhere near the nightmare that ORD is. There is slightly less traffic, and more runway capacity to bring things back online after a delay. You are much, much less likely to get a cancellation due to delay at DFW than you are at ORD.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 20):
You must have had bad luck. In my experience, D/FW is one of the easiest and best airports to transit through in terms of weather/congestion issues. With 7 non-intersecting runways, it pretty much takes a tornado to shut down the entire airfield at D/FW.

I mentioned "summers" specifically because I've had weather delays in about 1/2 my flights when connecting via DFW...and not because of delays in other cities, but in DFW itself...
"Up the Irons!"
 
AADC10
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:18 am

I have no idea why people connect through ORD when both AA and UA have alternative hubs with fewer delays, DFW and DEN respectively. Both DFW and DEN have their problems but not as consistently as ORD and only ORD and LGA are at the limits of their capacity.

Having a hub there is profitable because of the large O&D but there seems to be little reson for a domestic traveller to connect there. Unless the passenger is connecting to Eagle or UAX for a short hop or connecting to an international flight, stay away from ORD.

I guess travel agents book people SJC-ORD-EWR rather than SJC-DFW-EWR because the flight time and distance is shorter. A good travel agent would know better but most of them have left the industry. The people in the India call center have probably never been to ORD either.
 
AA717driver
Posts: 1502
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:27 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:30 pm

The reason there are 50+ people on the standby lists the rest of the day is that the load factors are through the roof. One hiccup and you're done for the rest of the day and maybe on the originator the next day.

As for the customer service aspect, Jetblue pretty much summed it up.TC
FL450, M.85
 
ckfred
Posts: 4734
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:39 pm

My wife was on an Eagle flight from ORD to CLT today. Departure was scheduled for 4:30pm. Then it was pushed back to 6:15. Later, it was pushed back to 7:15. I happened to be looking at AA.Com at 5:15pm when the flight status popped up cancelled.

I called my wife and told her to call Reservations, because there were 5 seats open on the 8:25 departure. By the time she called, they were gone, and she was booked on a 1pm departure the next day.

After hearing passengers getting booked on a 9:15 flight, she talked to an agent who put her on US's 9:15 departure tomorrow.

According to the agent, weather was causing ATC delays. The only thing is that I've had the Weather Channel on today, and I didn't see any severe weather. So, where was the problem today?
 
flamedude707
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:41 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:13 pm

Quoting AA717driver (Reply 27):
The reason there are 50+ people on the standby lists the rest of the day is that the load factors are through the roof. One hiccup and you're done for the rest of the day and maybe on the originator the next day.


It may be true, but for 10-15 flights on multiple carriers? Seems unlikely. It's just too many people.

Quoting Jetblue (Reply 23):

Bringing aircraft back from the desert just to be sitting around waiting for cancellations would be very expensive and counter-productive. These ATC/weather problems result from too many planes scheduled to an airport when there are delays in effect. What good would extra planes do? Plus, if an airline is going to bring back planes from storage, they will be for scheduled flights and expansion.

It wont be more planes, it will be less. You get rid of the smaller planes, and you bring back larger ones. Larger planes= more seats= less planes needed to fly same amount of pax.
Time you enjoy wasting, is not wasted.
 
AirSpare
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:13 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:51 pm

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 3):
Should have flown through DFW

DFW is a miserable place to connect, the train is a PITA, you have to travel a large circuit to go short distances, DFW is America's answer to LHR, without the decent book stores or smoking areas. I'm not sure why DFW has so many fans here.

I've had short then missed connections at both airports from/to MCO/ICT. Sometimes AA is ok, sometimes useless. Platinum helps, a little.

I wish there were more point to point flights, an international version of Y1, ETOPS, send me from Lagos to MCO, or DXB to NAT, MCO to NAT (Tam, Gol, you have to add this route!). Any hub after DXB-LHR-USA legs is way to much (requires a stop in MIA).
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
apodino
Posts: 3030
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:59 pm

Some of my thoughts from someone who works in the industry and sees what actually goes on behind the scenes.

Part of the problem with the NY airports, including Philly is ATC staffing issues, or so they claim. One thing I have noticed is that if there is even one small drop of rain on the radar, NY Center goes into panic mode, shuts down the airspace around it, and all hell breaks loose. 2 hour taxis in PHL are not uncommon if you have one drop of rain w of the airport, then NYC will shut down northerly departures, and when we try to file them out over fixes and reroute them around the weather, they won't help us. Trying to figure out what ATC will let us do during bad weather at PHL is not fun at all. I haven't figured it out yet, and its very frustrating as a dispatcher. And they play these games all the time. One night I had a flight going to CRW from PHL, and they wouldn't let it depart because they claimed the Jet Route near CRW was closed, then they claimed there was a level 6 thunderstorm right over the CRW airport even though my radar showed light rain at best there. And they don't cooperate at all with my pilots to try to help them.

As far as why airlines cancel flights during delay programs. Remember that the flight you are taking is only one of many flights that both the airplane and the crew will be operating on a particular day. The FAR's as well as union contracts stipulate how long a crew member can be on duty for and how much rest he needs. If either becomes an issue, than we are either forced to cancel a flight, or delay the first flight of the next day, which will delay every flight on that airplane for that day. Another issue becomes, by eating a delay on one flight the plane will be very late getting back to a hub for the next flight, and then all of a sudden an airport like BDL, which is not known for huge delays, suddenly would take a 3 hour delay because of the ATC issues at LGA. In that case its often best from an operational standpoint to just cancel the flight into LGA and run the BDL flight on time.

Maintenance is another issue. At my carrier, all our planes have to have service checks done by MX every three days. MX planning will have bases planned out for each aircraft, and the aircraft are routed accordingly. At my company, we have 5 locations where our RON planes get service checks ORF, MKE, PHL, DCA, and RDU. If a plane will not make it into a maintenance base by Midnight central time, then the plane is no longer considered airworthy and then we have to ferry the airplane. So if a plane is going from PIT to EWR, and after it gets back to PIT is scheduled to go to ORF with a drop dead service check, and EWR is running 2 hour delays, we will likely cancel the EWR flight so that we can at least run PIT-ORF as a revenue flight.

As far as putting passengers in hotels. My thoery on that is this. Airfare is paid to get passengers from point A to point B. Often times this necessitates a stop at Point C. I firmly believe that in this case, the airline has not fulfilled its contract with you to get your from point A to point B, and thus I believe a hotel room should be provided if the flight in question is the last flight of the day. I don't believe that they airline should pay for meals because Airlines don't even provide meals on their own flights and passengers are responsible for meals on layovers to begin with. I believe the AA passenger in question got screwed because the agent wouldn't even help reaccomodate the passenger. There is no excuse for that in my opinion. And another thought on this. They have rebooking stations set up throughout OHare to help with irregular ops. That being said, they aren't staffed with humans, they just provide a direct line to reservations. If the passenger is reaccomodated on say, a United flight, how do they give them a paper ticket that United will accept?

I have more to say on this topic, but I need to catch my breath.
 
commavia
Posts: 9797
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:38 pm

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 28):
According to the agent, weather was causing ATC delays. The only thing is that I've had the Weather Channel on today, and I didn't see any severe weather. So, where was the problem today?

As many will attest, the weather doesn't have to be sitting right over O'Hare. If there is weather within 1,000 miles east or west, it can lead to ATC backup stretching all the way from EWR to ORD, and flights get delayed for hours.

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 30):
DFW is a miserable place to connect, the train is a PITA

When was the last time you connected through D/FW? The new SkyLink train is the most advanced airport people mover in the world and is very, very fast, with the maximum ride from one terminal to another taking under 10 minutes, and the average ride on the train being under 5 for most passengers. It is extremely fast, extremely efficient, and extremely reliable.
 
AirSpare
Posts: 570
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:24 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 32):
When was the last time you connected through D/FW?

I had 3 connections there in the last 2 months, MEX and ICT and MCO in the dash. I missed my connection to ICT, and no, the people mover is not convenient at all. The times you quote sound like a press release, but they are not real world. It has the same convenience level as changing terminals in LHR, except the walk to it is shorter.

Flying through any hub is not pleasant. You are basically a FedEx package, except you have to walk, take a train or take a bus, but you are still treated like parcel post.

But Commavia, DFW is impressive, if not just for the vast amounts of cement employed. There comes a time where size=misery, DFW,and the entire hub experience is past that point.
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
commavia
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:28 pm

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 33):
I had 3 connections there in the last 2 months, MEX and ICT and MCO in the dash. I missed my connection to ICT, and no, the people mover is not convenient at all. The times you quote sound like a press release, but they are not real world. It has the same convenience level as changing terminals in LHR, except the walk to it is shorter.

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I have transited through dozens of airports on five continents and find D/FW's new SkyLink to be definitely the most efficient airport people mover system I've ever experienced. In my experience, it is exceedingly fast and reliable, and it is dramatically better than Heathrow, which is h*ll on earth to connect through. I honestly don't know how you could draw that comparison, but hey, that's me.
 
ckfred
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 32):
As many will attest, the weather doesn't have to be sitting right over O'Hare. If there is weather within 1,000 miles east or west, it can lead to ATC backup stretching all the way from EWR to ORD, and flights get delayed for hours.

I understand. Last year, my wife had a flight from ORD to SDF cancelled, because of a line of severe thunderstorms that extended from Detroit to South Bend and all the way to St. Louis.

My point was that in watching the Weather Channel yesterday, I didn't see any outbreak of severe storms anywhere on the national map. And the FAA website didn't show any airports that were under traffic management programs.

So, I was curious as to where the weather was that was causing the problems for O'Hare.
 
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yellowtail
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:01 am

2 weeks ago...they cancelled several BZE flights from DFW and MIA sporadically for a coupel of days....I was stuck in DFW on the Sunday.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
NorthstarBoy
Posts: 1416
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:51 am

Quoting Jetblue (Reply 23):
Airlines do cooperate with one another when irregular operations are in effect. There ia a Rule 120/240 that protects passengers on other carriers when problems arise. The reason you won't see much interlining of tickets with an ATC situation is that the other airlines are facing the same problems and more than likely have no available seats, either.

actually, FYI, rule 240 only covers delays or cancellations that are within the control of the airline, mechanicals, crew issues and etc, rule 260 is the weather, "act of god" rule, and i've found from being in the travel industry for 12 years and dealing with this stuff all the time, that when it's a rule 260 issue, the airlines will never reprotect you to another airline, because the prevailing attitude is "if we're not going, they're not going either."

my logic on the reserve fleet idea is the airlines i'm sure track weather, if an airline knows that Chicago is going to have weather problems that are going to cause five or ten flights to be canceled into a given destination, and they already know that all the flights the next day are basically sold out, have some reserve capacity available that you can bring in the next day to accomodate the passengers stranded from the night before so that everyone gets where they're going and passengers don't have to either shell out the money to fly another airline or endure the inconvenience of having to wait up to three days to get. while yes, it's costly, it's a way of thinking from a customer service perspective "lets spend a little extra money to keep our passengers from being massively inconvenienced."

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 26):
I have no idea why people connect through ORD when both AA and UA have alternative hubs with fewer delays, DFW and DEN respectively. Both DFW and DEN have their problems but not as consistently as ORD and only ORD and LGA are at the limits of their capacity.

basically it's because people don't want to have to go out of their way. if someone flying from San Francisco to La Guardia is given the choice to travel via ORD, DFW or ATL, they're generally not going to care that ORD is delay prone, they're going to feel that going to DFW or ATL are too far out of their way. people go through ORD because it's convenient to all the major east coast business centers that don't have nonstop service from out west. we can and generally do offer people connections through DFW and or ATL, people don't take them, because they think it makes no sense to travel via DFW if you're traveling from SFO to the east coast. DEN obviously, is a good alternative to ORD, but travel agents don't go out of their way to find "creative routings" such as SFO-DEN-LGA unless the airline makes it easy for us to find, and generally the most convenient routing is via ORD.

just my 2cents, again
Yes, I'd like to see airbus go under so Boeing can have their customers!
 
Ih8b6
Posts: 197
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 6):
While it isn't completely AA's fault that the flight was canceled, overall it sort of was in that they scheduled too many flights at an airport that frequently has such problems (well, at least according to this thread, that is). Wouldn't one think that by now AA realized what a mess ORD is in the summer and they would have therefore scheduled their flights accordingly?

Yeah..but if AA didn't schedule so many flights, someone else would swoop in and schedule where AA didn't....

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 9):
maybe the airlines should consider taking all those aircraft sitting in the desert, baking away and waiting to be turned into soda/beer cans, get them back into a semblance of airworthiness and form some kind of reserve fleet that can be activated with very short notice to provide the extra capacity needed.

Sure, but with the reserve fleet you need pilots, flight attendants, the extra staffing in the stations to work the flights, the dispatchers, etc... This is following the same line as the passengers who, as someone else previously said, 'want a plane to appear out of thin air.' There is so much more to just having an aircraft ready. It just is not cost feasible.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 9):
or at the very least, airlines should start cooperating with one another and abandon the whole policy of not interlining passengers who are affected by "acts of god" not to mention get back into the habit of proactively reprotecting passengers, rather than just "send them to the ticket counter"

Even so, not everyone interlines...

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 28):
According to the agent, weather was causing ATC delays. The only thing is that I've had the Weather Channel on today, and I didn't see any severe weather. So, where was the problem today?

Could have been ATC on the inbound flights. Example..last night, and watching the weather channel wouldn't have picked this up: Two small thunderstorm cells popped up at the two JFK SID fixes. Two little cells..two tiny blips on a radar caused 3 hour taxi out delays in JFK and holding to all three NYC airports...insane yes, daily occurrence yes. Thunderstorms tonight on the North Carolina coast is causing traffic to be routed further west, squeezing other flights out, and yes, causing ATC delays to cities that have no weather issues anywhere near them.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 35):
So, I was curious as to where the weather was that was causing the problems for O'Hare.

ATC freaked out yesterday. There was small area of thunderstorms in Iowa that was moving toward ORD. Never made it but made for many delays and reroutes.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 37):
"lets spend a little extra money to keep our passengers from being massively inconvenienced."

The major amount of money to spend is not worth it compared with the few amount of times the pax are inconvenienced...will never ever happen.

Just my 6 cents...  Smile
Over-moderation sucks
 
CentPIT
Posts: 978
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:48 am

RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 31):
Maintenance is another issue. At my carrier, all our planes have to have service checks done by MX every three days. MX planning will have bases planned out for each aircraft, and the aircraft are routed accordingly. At my company, we have 5 locations where our RON planes get service checks ORF, MKE, PHL, DCA, and RDU. If a plane will not make it into a maintenance base by Midnight central time, then the plane is no longer considered airworthy and then we have to ferry the airplane. So if a plane is going from PIT to EWR, and after it gets back to PIT is scheduled to go to ORF with a drop dead service check, and EWR is running 2 hour delays, we will likely cancel the EWR flight so that we can at least run PIT-ORF as a revenue flight.

Will this change when the Republic Base in PIT is officially opened, or will this be solely for E70s?
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
flflyguy
Posts: 191
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RE: AA And Cancelling Flights

Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:37 am

Quoting Flamedude707 (Thread starter):
some obnoxious lady just handed us a 1 800 number and told us to deal with the problem ourselves

I cannot defend an agent being obnoxious, but the idea behind calling the 800 number is that now that virtually everyone has cell phones, why would you want to wait in line with 100 other people when you could just call and get it taken care of immediately? Seasoned travelers have done this for years, even if it was from a phone booth.

But like I said, it should have been explained to you politely.
The views expressed are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer.