Airliners.net

After seeing a pic of a JAL 744 at Sao Paulo (SBGR), I wondered how they rotate the crews for this flight. I know it one stops out of Nartia at JFK, has a 2hr 15min layover at JFK and then continues on to SBGR. I am assuming one crew gets it to JFK, gets off there and a fresh crew gets on for the SBGR segment. Now once at SBGR the next morning, I assume that crew gets off and then stays while the crew that brought flt 48 in the previous day gets on and takes it back to JFK. But here is where I get lost, once at JFK, does that crew get off and the crew that brought it into JFK last night get on for the trip to Narita? If so, how do the crews doing the KJFK-SBGR segment get rotated back to Tokyo or are they permanently based at JFK?

It's probably a trip like this:

NRT-JFK then overnight, JFK-GRU then overnight, GRU-JFK then overnight, JFK-NRT last leg before home.

It is probably like this

JL48 (Wednesday) 1920 from NRT arrive JFK 1850 (Wednesday), JL48 (Thursday) 2105 from JFK arrive GRU 0730 (Friday), JL47 (Saturday) 2350 from GRU arrive JFK 0810 (Sunday) , JL47 (Monday) 0900 from JFK arrive NRT 1310 (Tuesday).

OR (taking into the chance of a short day layover in GRU)

JL48 (Wednesday) 1920 from NRT arrive JFK 1850 (Wednesday), JL48 (Thursday) 2105 from JFK arrive GRU 0730 (Friday), JL47 (Friday) 2350 from GRU arrive JFK 0810 (Saturday), JL47 (Sunday) 0900 from JFK arrive NRT 1310 (Monday).

Hope it helps with your question.

Man thats a long trip for the crews..leave your house on Wednesday afternoon and not return until the following Tuesday afternoon. They must do one of these turnarounds a month and thats it I presume until next month.

Couple of questions/comments about your timetable though.

-I did not know they let their 744 sit at GRU for almost 16.5hrs...that seems rather long!

-I see JL47 arrives at JFK at 0810 and leaves at 0900..thats a really short turnaround time whilst the rotation the other way is 2.25hr...is that correct? I cannot make heads or tails of JAL's online timetable...its the most complicated one I have ever seen.

-You have to wonder how many crews are tied up with just this NRT-JFK-GRU rotation..seems like a bunch.

Quoting B777ER (Reply 2): -I did not know they let their 744 sit at GRU for almost 16.5hrs...that seems rather long!

You should see GRU during the day. We have a 767 sit all day as well as DL, UA, AA to name a few. We actually have a 12 hour layover there after working EWR-GRU. Aircraft sitting there during the day is the norm.

Quoting B777ER (Reply 2): -I see JL47 arrives at JFK at 0810 and leaves at 0900..thats a really short turnaround time whilst the rotation the other way is 2.25hr...is that correct? I cannot make heads or tails of JAL's online timetable...its the most complicated one I have ever seen.

It is short, they may have another 744 from another flight that does the return. Since all customers and crew have to leave the aircraft in JFK for customs, no one is on board for the ground time. While an hour and tem minutes is short, it can be done.

If JL48 is a daily flight, figure 3-4 pilots and figure 15 flight attendants that's 21-28 pilots and 105 flight attendants out on this trip for this trip for a weeks worth of pairings.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 3): If JL48 is a daily flight, figure 3-4 pilots and figure 15 flight attendants that's 21-28 pilots and 105 flight attendants out on this trip for this trip for a weeks worth of pairings.

The JFK-GRU leg is on Wednesdays, Thursdays and Sundays.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4): The JFK-GRU leg is on Wednesdays, Thursdays and Sundays.

Anyone here with JL who can clarify the pairing? I was going on a presumption that it was a daily pairing, which, I now know, it is not.

Thanks AW.

Well, that throws a wrench in the presumed crew rotation! One now wonders what the crew that takes it to GRU on Thursday does...they must take it back on the return to JFK lest they stay in GRU until Sunday night? Same for the Sunday run.....
Yes I do wish someone with insight at JL shows up here.

Quoting B777ER (Reply 6): One now wonders what the crew that takes it to GRU on Thursday does...they must take it back on the return to JFK lest they stay in GRU until Sunday night?

What EWR said earlier about the same crew taking the plane back on the same day seems plausible, but not being with JAL, I'd not really know. What is the minimum rest time after a JFK-GRU segment, 8 hours?

Just as an aside, the days of the week JAL flies this route seems a bit odd in itself. One would think if it goes 3x/week it would do something like Wed/Fri/Sun, not Wed/Thu/Sun, but it must have something to do when the traffic is there and when it's not.

Quoting B777ER (Reply 6): One now wonders what the crew that takes it to GRU on Thursday does...they must take it back on the return to JFK lest they stay in GRU until Sunday night? Same for the Sunday run.....

It's probably a 12 hour layover, like all the others that do it (UA, AA, CO, DL). Short, sweet and to the point. Great for pay as well as getting you home earlier.

Yes, that must be the case...crew flies it to GRU from JFK and then 12hr later, takes her back to JFK. I would presume they then get 24hr layover at JFK and then take the plane back to NRT.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7): What EWR said earlier about the same crew taking the plane back on the same day seems plausible, but not being with JAL, I'd not really know. What is the minimum rest time after a JFK-GRU segment, 8 hours?

Our GRU pairing is a 3 day trip on paper, but you are gone about 32 hours. It is a very senior trip. All I bring, when I do the trip, is my manual, my apron, a clean shirt, socks and underwear, swimsuit for a quick dip in the pool and my toiletries. All packed in a backpack.

I don't work for JL but I do know someone at JL ops.
The JFK-GRU used to use American contract pilots before but are now fully Japanese based. The JFK-GRU-JFK is done with the daytime layover with the crews. The crews rest at least 48 hours at JFK inbound and outbound from Japan and on the JFK-GRU run. Crews can be rotated amongst the daily JL5/6.

EWRCabincrew, slighty off topic but what is the most senior trip that F/A's would love to bid for at CO....as in what is the premier golden route that everyone wants? I would presume maybe the HKG sector? Looking at your routes, I would want the EWR-HNL non-stop....nothing like sitting on the beach in Hawaii! By the way, my brother took that flight from HNL-EWR for a funeral we went to and when I asked him he stated that the service was excellent. I usually fly DL's F class but I think next time I will have to give you all a try as I keep hearing the F class service on CO is the best amonst US legacy carriers.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 11): JFK-GRU-JFK is done with the daytime layover with the crews

Just as we surmised..thanks for confirming this for us.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 11): The crews rest at least 48 hours at JFK inbound and outbound from Japan and on the JFK-GRU run. Crews can be rotated amongst the daily JL5/6.

So a crew leaving NRT to JFK get in, stay for 48hrs, then go on to GRU, turn-around 12hrs later and take her back to JFK, then stay another 48hrs before heading back to NRT? With flight times btw cities, thats along the lines of 7 day trips. I wonder how expensive it gets for JL to house all these flight crews in NY for two days at a time.

Quoting B777ER (Reply 12): EWRCabincrew, slighty off topic but what is the most senior trip that F/A's would love to bid for at CO....as in what is the premier golden route that everyone wants? I would presume maybe the HKG sector? Looking at your routes, I would want the EWR-HNL non-stop....nothing like sitting on the beach in Hawaii! By the way, my brother took that flight from HNL-EWR for a funeral we went to and when I asked him he stated that the service was excellent. I usually fly DL's F class but I think next time I will have to give you all a try as I keep hearing the F class service on CO is the best amonst US legacy carriers.

For CO, international flying from our EWR base tends to be anything high time hours. GRU (roughly 20 hours of pay) is a good trip because you check-in late and get back early. PEK (27 hours of pay) for shopping, HKG (31 hours of pay) for shopping too. NRT (26 hours of pay) and DEL (29 hours of pay). TLV (22 hours of pay 3 day or 4 day) for the food and location. HNL is roughly 20 hours of pay too. Usually HNL commuters do it. It's a red-eye getting back into EWR at 1pm. The trip kicks your ass.

As an ISM (International Service Manager - read: purser), at 20 years, I can hold (fly as a crew member) anytime trip up to 18 hours. As a regular flight attendant, I can hold TLV. HNL and higher you are looking at someone hired in 1986 and earlier.

From our Houston base and international it is EZE (mirror trip to EWR's GRU trip and roughly 22 hours), NRT (roughly 26 hours), GIG (4 day trip worth 22 hours), AMS (3 and 4 day worth 20 hours), CDG (roughly 20 hours) and lastly LGW (roughly 19.5 hours).

Hope it answers your questions.

Bill

[Edited 2006-08-08 01:33:17]

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 11): JFK-GRU-JFK is done with the daytime layover with the crews. The crews rest at least 48 hours at JFK inbound and outbound from Japan and on the JFK-GRU run. Crews can be rotated amongst the daily JL5/6.

Aha... thanks for the info. When I was in New York in May, I was staying at the hotel where tons of airline crew were staying. The JL crew was also staying there. I would see one batch of captains/FAs coming in the morning on the JL6 flight and then returning the next day. And I saw a few of the crews coming in at night. Probably they were the ones that flew in the JL48 for the NRT-JFK segment.

Seems like a costly operation. Are they able to post a profit with that?

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 14): As an ISM (International Service Manager - read: purser), at 20 years, I can hold (fly as a crew member) anytime trip up to 18 hours. As a regular flight attendant, I can hold TLV. HNL and higher you are looking at someone hired in 1986 and earlier

Wow, 20 years seniority and you cannot even get HNL as a regular f/a. Holy crap do you have some senior people at CO. Thanks for the info Bill, very informative.

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 15): Seems like a costly operation. Are they able to post a profit with that?

Ktachiya,

That was my thought as well...would love to know what that route costs JL in terms of crew cost.

Quoting B777ER (Reply 16): That was my thought as well...would love to know what that route costs JL in terms of crew cost.

From my understanding, crew layover costs are generally low...Especially when it is offset by an extremely lucrative route like GRU-JFK-NRT.

Though not an airline professional, I would expect at least two nights rest (or equivalent time) for crossing eleven time zones (ten in winter) on such as the NRT-JFK run. I am not sure what the industry norm is but two nights rest on such a long-haul run would seem reasonable.

Back in the early 1990s, I remember reading an article that JL/NH crews stayed four or even five nights on the NRT-JFK/IAD runs. This is during the golden age where there were high ticket prices and lenient working policies. I am sure, this is no longer the case.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 8): It's probably a 12 hour layover, like all the others that do it (UA, AA, CO, DL). Short, sweet and to the point. Great for pay as well as getting you home earlier.

Amazingly, DL's crews on the new JFK-GRU actually get a 35 hour layover in GRU - it's basically a four-day trip (e.g., leaving Monday night from JFK and getting back to JFK on Thursday morning at 0630) instead of CO's 3-day trip.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 19): Amazingly, DL's crews on the new JFK-GRU actually get a 35 hour layover in GRU - it's basically a four-day trip (e.g., leaving Monday night from JFK and getting back to JFK on Thursday morning at 0630) instead of CO's 3-day trip.

Any particular reason they would make it a longer layover when they can do it the same way CO does (for presumably cheaper)?