leelaw
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FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:49 am

Airbus has increased the workforce on the A380 assembly line by 50% to 3,800 people as it battles to overcome production delays.

Technicians are working flat out through France's traditional August break on the already assembled A380s in Toulouse to rectify wiring problems that caused the delay and undertake out-of-sequence work...


http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ulouse+A380+workforce+boosted.html
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Revelation
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Technicians are working flat out through France's traditional August break

Viva La France!

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sabenapilot
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 1):
Viva La France!

It should be Vive la France!

Other than that, excellent post! Big grin
 
astuteman
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):

Good article, Leelaw.

If I understand it right, that's 1200 over plan now, rising to 2200 over plan, recovering to plan after c. 50 frames.

I make that about 5000 more man-years expended in Toulouse over a (roughly) 3 year period.
What we don't know is how many man-years "weren't" spent in Hamburg.

If we worst case it and say that the "unplanned" out-of-sequence work is 1/5 as effective as the original planned work (i.e. 4000 of the man-years are "extra") , and a mechanic/electrician costs (overall cost, not just salary) about $100 000 per year to employ, that's about $400m extra labour costs on the first 50 frames.

...or thereabouts..  Smile

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Flying-Tiger
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:40 am

Well, I woudl rather call it "Lang lebe Deutschland!" as over 1,000 of these 1,600 or so extra workers have been pulled from German plants.
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UA933
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:49 am

Does this mean that Airbus is trying to deliver the 380s ontime? And if so what are the chances they will?
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JayinKitsap
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:53 am

Just think all of those added Man Years to make the first 10 between now and the end of 2007. Probably those first 10 had already been well over budget on manhours. 3,800 man years x $ 100k/year spent on final assembly $ 380 million. If each was sold at $ 220 million that is 380/2,200 = 17% of the sales price for the 10.
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting UA933 (Reply 5):
Does this mean that Airbus is trying to deliver the 380s ontime? And if so what are the chances they will?

I thought the problem is more to the supplier issue. So, no matter how many engineer they put on the job, it probably won't resolve the supplier issue.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
UA933
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:05 am

Yes! I also know that it initially was a supplier issue but only in terms of quality if I am not mistaken. This problem has been resolved but the delay comes into play because less airframes were able to be assembled while the supplier resolved the problem. So basically they could now make up for the lost time and build the airframes which where supposed to have been built already.
Please correct me if I am mistaken
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JBOND
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:14 am

Airbus is closed never totally during summer.
There are trial flights, some flights Beluga, and chaines turns in slow motion.
Now this factory is a shame for the other factory, the employees privileged who spend time in the coffee machine!
The foreign employees (widely paid) go not complain  Wink
Before criticizing still Airbus, let us see seeing what will be the delay of 787....
 
RAPCON
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 4):
Well, I woudl rather call it "Lang lebe Deutschland!" as over 1,000 of these 1,600 or so extra workers have been pulled from German plants.

Yeah, this thread should've been titled:

"Tolouse A380 Workforce Boosted; Hamburg Airbus Workforce Depleted!"
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PADSpot
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 10):

"Tolouse A380 Workforce Boosted; Hamburg Airbus Workforce Depleted!"

And even before they were desperate to get new engineers for the Hamburg plant. Hundreds of position were vakant since last year ...

In the beginning of the A380 "issues" Forgeard said that problems were in Hamburg. Now they move over 1,000 people from Hamburg to Toulouse. Was Forgeard wrong and the actual problem was in Toulouse?
 
UA933
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 11):
In the beginning of the A380 "issues" Forgeard said that problems were in Hamburg. Now they move over 1,000 people from Hamburg to Toulouse. Was Forgeard wrong and the actual problem was in Toulouse?

That's what it looks like. The french have always looked at Airbus as THEIR baby because of Toulouse. No wonder that Forgeard would say something like that in saying that the in terms of shareholding equal partner is responsible for the delay.
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PADSpot
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting UA933 (Reply 12):
No wonder that Forgeard would say something like that in saying that the in terms of shareholding equal partner is responsible for the delay.

Well, his unprofessional media appaerance in that context contributed to his dismissal, I guess.
 
swissy
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:08 am

Well lets see if our "Deutsche Freunde" (German friends) can get the 380 somewhat back to sheduld.......... nice to see AB is finally reacting and is moving on 100%.

Cheers,
 
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting Jbond (Reply 9):
the employees privileged who spend time in the coffee machine!

I hope they enjoy "French roast" coffee - it is really good! Maybe we will get a "cafeteria report" from one of the guest workers...
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:15 am

Quoting UA933 (Reply 8):
Yes! I also know that it initially was a supplier issue but only in terms of quality if I am not mistaken. This problem has been resolved but the delay comes into play because less airframes were able to be assembled while the supplier resolved the problem. So basically they could now make up for the lost time and build the airframes which where supposed to have been built already.
Please correct me if I am mistaken

I thought that the problem was that Airbus switched to aluminum wiring late in the production stage. The supplier was not ready to make the harnesses available. At least that's what I remember from the press release and PR department from Airbus. Airbus did nothing wrong. The supplier screwed up.

I thought Airbus has about 7(?) available airframes right now, while the delay affects all of the airframes starting from the second one. So I don't think building the airframe was the problem. Correct me if I'm wrong.

From EADS press release:

Quote:
The new delays are caused by industrial issues only. They are mainly traceable to bottlenecks formed in the definition, manufacturing and installation of electrical systems and resulting harnesses.

http://www.eads.com/web/lang/en/1024.../OF00000000400004/8/99/513998.html

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
astuteman
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:47 pm

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 16):
Airbus did nothing wrong.

Except this perhaps?..... Smile

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 16):
I thought that the problem was that Airbus switched to aluminum wiring late in the production stage.

IIRC the problem was also exascerbated by Airbus not controlling the number of options made available to the airlines vs. manufacturing capability.

I could be wrong, but I ALSO understand that the change to larger aluminium wiring may have led to space issues in certain areas, requiring re-configuration/re-routing of the wiring, and impacting the airframe (bigger penetrations through structure etc..).

Regards
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:17 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 11):
Quoting RAPCON (Reply 10):

"Tolouse A380 Workforce Boosted; Hamburg Airbus Workforce Depleted!"

And even before they were desperate to get new engineers for the Hamburg plant. Hundreds of position were vakant since last year ...

In the beginning of the A380 "issues" Forgeard said that problems were in Hamburg. Now they move over 1,000 people from Hamburg to Toulouse. Was Forgeard wrong and the actual problem was in Toulouse?

I think part of the problem also comes from the fact that the labour market for experienced mechanics and AMEs in Europe is at the moment practically swept clear. Almost all airlines and MROs have serious problems finding enough staff to cover the vacancies (good for us, drives our market value and salaries up  Smile )
The manufacturers try to use retrained car and industrial mechanics at least under supervision for the less skilled jobs.

Jan
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Thorben
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:07 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 3):
If we worst case it and say that the "unplanned" out-of-sequence work is 1/5 as effective as the original planned work (i.e. 4000 of the man-years are "extra") , and a mechanic/electrician costs (overall cost, not just salary) about $100 000 per year to employ, that's about $400m extra labour costs on the first 50 frames.

I think that should be worth it when you consider how much the delays cost Airbus in terms of compensations, later revenue and customer confidence.

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Technicians are working flat out through France's traditional August break on the already assembled A380s in Toulouse to rectify wiring problems that caused the delay and undertake out-of-sequence work...

"Traditional" or not, Airbus should be working 24/7 to get this thing done.

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 4):
Well, I woudl rather call it "Lang lebe Deutschland!" as over 1,000 of these 1,600 or so extra workers have been pulled from German plants.

Too much world-cup enthusiasm left? The German workers should be happy to spend some time in France on their emplyers cost, good food, better weather than in HH.
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autothrust
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:07 pm

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 16):
I thought that the problem was that Airbus switched to aluminum wiring late in the production stage

AFAIK they planned from beginning with Al wiring, but they underestimated the amount of work and wishes of customers.

Sorry, dont find a source but im pretty sure i readed that on A.net.

[Edited 2006-08-09 12:09:51]
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PolymerPlane
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:33 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 20):
they underestimated the amount of work and wishes of customers.

I thought that's the reason for the first delay  Wink

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 17):
IIRC the problem was also exascerbated by Airbus not controlling the number of options made available to the airlines vs. manufacturing capability.

I could be wrong, but I ALSO understand that the change to larger aluminium wiring may have led to space issues in certain areas, requiring re-configuration/re-routing of the wiring, and impacting the airframe (bigger penetrations through structure etc..).

Yeah that's probably the problem too. My wild guess though, the purpose of this workforce boost is to actually finish the testing and preparing for EIS for december 2006, so Airbus does not get more pie in the face. Not really to solve the initial delivery delay.

You would think that if it is due to air frame design, once the airframe design is firmed including all the electrical systems, the ramp up is going to be much easier than having to slow down for 2-3 years. I think it's more to the availability of the aluminum wiring that holds Airbus back.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 3):
If we worst case it and say that the "unplanned" out-of-sequence work is 1/5 as effective as the original planned work (i.e. 4000 of the man-years are "extra") , and a mechanic/electrician costs (overall cost, not just salary) about $100 000 per year to employ, that's about $400m extra labour costs on the first 50 frames.

The additional costs as detailed above sound a bit low since they only amount to the salary costs at $50/hr. When overhead is considered, I suspect the true hourly cost is more like $100/hr so total intremental costs will be about $800 million, adding an additional $16 million to the cost of production of the first 50 airframes.

Quoting Jbond (Reply 9):
Before criticizing still Airbus, let us see seeing what will be the delay of 787....

A380 ROI should be the primary concern of both Airbus management and EADS shareholders. If I were an EADS shareholder, the potential of an additional $800 million cost would be a valid reason for criticizing Airbus as it calls into question their management practices. Any Boeing issues on the 787 do not have a direct impact on the A380 ROI.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
astuteman
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 22):
The additional costs as detailed above sound a bit low since they only amount to the salary costs at $50/hr.

Wow - is that what mechanics get in the States?

I'd based it on a skilled tradesman in the yard, who would get a basic of around £15/hour ($25).

Hell, I'm an Exec 3 grade (BAE personnel will know what that means...  Smile ) and I only get £30/hour (equivalent) basic.........

And to think, instead of being responsible for modernising the the UK's strategic submarine building capability I could be merely strangling cables in the Toulouse sunshine for the same money, AND working on my favourite plane at the same time.....  Smile

Time to move...  biggrin 

Regards
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:40 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 23):
Hell, I'm an Exec 3 grade (BAE personnel will know what that means... ) and I only get £30/hour (equivalent) basic.........



But is that your burdened rate? Aren't there additional charges that apply to you (and other employees) to pay for lights, heating/airconditioning, housekeeping, building maintenance, salary adminstration and the army of business folks who make sure you're making your program milestones and keeping to budget?

When these costs are added, I'm sure your burdened rate is much higher than $100/hr.

The extra employees probably include more than just the folks on the floors pulling wires as additional engineering and management is likely to be required. I suspect when all is said and done, the average burdened rate is closer to $100/hr than $50/hr.

In any case, adding $8M to $16M in manufacturing costs for each of the first 50 A380's won't put a happy face on the bottom line.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
RedChili
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 21):
My wild guess though, the purpose of this workforce boost is to actually finish the testing and preparing for EIS for december 2006

The only problem with your guess is that the first A380 for SQ, which is due for EIS in December 2006, is currently in Hamburg, where the cabin installation is going on. Why would Airbus send hundreds or thousands of workers from Hamburg to Toulouse in order to finish an airplane which is in Hamburg?
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par13del
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:23 am

Redchili Reply 25
"The only problem with your guess is that the first A380 for SQ, which is due for EIS in December 2006, is currently in Hamburg, where the cabin installation is going on. Why would Airbus send hundreds or thousands of workers from Hamburg to Toulouse in order to finish an airplane which is in Hamburg?"

In true A.Net fashion, I can only sat that Airbus is run by professionals and they know what they are doing.

I will speculate with other posters that maybe, just maybe the last delay problems was not just due to the wiring issue, the other side of that could be that those issues have been resolved, so the Hamburg engineers are now free to move to Toulouse.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 25):
The only problem with your guess is that the first A380 for SQ, which is due for EIS in December 2006, is currently in Hamburg,

There are two A380's in Hamburg for SQ, not one. In any case, EIS date is meaningless compared to ironing out the problems in the production ramp up...
 
astuteman
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:07 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 24):
When these costs are added, I'm sure your burdened rate is much higher than $100/hr.

Under our accounting principles, for our division of BAE Systems, on a salaried rate of $50/hr, the total burdened rate, including a 7% profit margin (i.e. our charge-out rate) would be $120/hour.

Said rate for a tradesman, including profit, would be $60/hour.

Breakdown would be:-

Salary
Labour related overheads (pension, NI, sickness, holidays) - +40% Salary
Company overheads - +85% Salary
Profit - +15% salary (c. 7% of total)

=salary + 140%

(Our) Company overheads would be broken down into 18 line items.
Said breakdown is "Commercially in Confidence", as it affects the pricing and revenue curves set into our contracts with UK MOD.

7% profit is the contractual rate that we are permitted with our main customer, as a monopoly supplier.

Regards
 
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autothrust
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RE: FI: Toulouse A380 Workforce Boosted

Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:12 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 23):
And to think, instead of being responsible for modernising the the UK's strategic submarine building capability I could be merely strangling cables in the Toulouse sunshine for the same money, AND working on my favourite plane at the same time.....  

Time to move...   

Move to Airbus Big grin that's what i would do having the necessary skills.

And they search like hell for new engineers,technicians. I can imagine they will pay good.
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