Jayce
Topic Author
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Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:41 am

Apparently, Air Tahiti is going to start a regular charter service from PPT-YVR-CDG in the coming months using the A340.

I usually don't pay much attention to rumours, but I just heard this one and was wondering if anybody else had heard anything about it.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" -Homer Simpson
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:43 am

Air Tahati Nui or Air Tahati? If its the latter where are they getting a/c from. I know TN has A343E a/c.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:44 am

I was under the impression from previous threads that the current France / Canada bilateral does not permit YVR-CDG flights by any carrier , then again , if it is run as a charter rather than a scheduled flight it may be able to get around this
 
spyderz
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:49 am

YVR-CDG charter flights are permitted under the bilateral agreement as both Air Canada and Air Transat operated this route under a charter basis. Additionally, I believe Zoom is flying 1xweekly YVR-CDG with a stop in YYC.
 
Venezuela747
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:43 am

Don't they already fly PPT-LAX-CDG....this will help them by getting the traffic that cannot connect throguh LAX due to lack of visas.
ROLL TIDE!!!
 
YULYMX
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:52 am

they also do PPT-JFK-CDG
 
astral
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:19 am

Main reason why Air Tahiti Nui wants to fly CDG-YVR-PPT is political. This French carrier ran into considerable security issues with the USA. Further more at times there are French military personnel onboard, and that compounded the problem more.
Air Tahiti Nui do have military charters now on occassion through YVR, because French soliders at times do not have 'French' passports especially those with the Foreign Legion. The aircraft also carries 'military items' which IF going through USA would be a huge problem.
Unless Canada and France change their bilateral agreement, Air Tahiti Nui can really operates passengers charters only. I doubted if any changes in the Bilateral can be agreed upon, as Air Canada is demanding Fifth Freedom out of CDG, which no clear minded French will allow that to happen in exchange for access into YVR !!!
 
MarkATL
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting Astral (Reply 6):
Air Tahiti Nui do have military charters now on occassion through YVR, because French soliders at times do not have 'French' passports especially those with the Foreign Legion. The aircraft also carries 'military items' which IF going through USA would be a huge problem.

How ironic, US troops rarely carry passports either. God knows what US military equipment transits third countries.

Are the Air Tahiti Nui military charters a replacement for the French Air Force 707 flights that used to stopover at LAX?

[Edited 2006-08-09 01:49:23]
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
LAXintl
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:10 am

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 5):
they also do PPT-JFK-CDG

JFK-CDG route was a flop and gets dropped end of October. Just as well as it was a bone of contention with AF.

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 7):
French Air Force 707 flights that used to stopover at LAX?

Was DC-8-72s.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:19 am

Quoting Jayce (Thread starter):
regular charter

can someone please explain what this means?
When I doubt... go running!
 
MarkATL
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:39 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 8):
Was DC-8-72s.

My bad.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
Hardkor
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:51 am

This may be a weak question, but how did Air Tahiti fly PPT-JFK;? Was it via LAX?
Hardkor
 
MarkATL
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:55 am

Quoting Hardkor (Reply 11):
This may be a weak question, but how did Air Tahiti fly PPT-JFK;? Was it via LAX?
Hardkor

Non-stop with A340-500...Great bird!
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
Jayce
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:10 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 9):
can someone please explain what this means?

I think that in this case it means that TN wants to fly to YVR but they cannot operate regular scheduled flights because of government restrictions so they are operating the flight under the guise of it being a charter flight.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" -Homer Simpson
 
AirCop
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:23 am

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 12):

Non-stop with A340-500...Great bird!

Try again its a 343- JFK to PPT is only 6200 miles well in the range of the 343.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 8):
JFK-CDG route was a flop

Wasn't this only once a week? Sounds like they weren't serious about the route in the first place.

[Edited 2006-08-09 03:23:39]
 
TGV
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:25 am

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 12):
Non-stop with A340-500...Great bird!

I suppose you wanted to write A340-300. But I agree with you: great plane !
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:27 am

I think a YVR-PPT route will get off the ground faster as far as passenger loads than JFK-PPT. The JFK route will work for TN, but it has been a long money losing process for them, whereas YVR will be a good west coast originator for passengers. Another west coast airport they should look at going into is SFO.
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MAH4546
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:28 am

Quoting Venezuela747 (Reply 4):
Don't they already fly PPT-LAX-CDG....this will help them by getting the traffic that cannot connect throguh LAX due to lack of visas.

You don't need a Visa to transit in LAX if you live in Tahiti, France, Australia, New Zealend, most Pacific Islands, Japan, or anywhere in modern Europe. It's a non-issue, because the amount of people who use this flight that need a Visa to transfer is likely close to zero.
a.
 
yvrsr
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:54 pm

Quoting Astral (Reply 6):
Unless Canada and France change their bilateral agreement, Air Tahiti Nui can really operates passengers charters only. I doubted if any changes in the Bilateral can be agreed upon, as Air Canada is demanding Fifth Freedom out of CDG, which no clear minded French will allow that to happen in exchange for access into YVR !!!

Here is a link to the Canada-France bilateral

http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/air-aerien/agreements/html/france_e.html

It is not obvious to me that airlines from Canada do not already have Fifth Freedom rights from Paris -- see the schedules.

With respect to YVR, a "French" airline can only fly between YVR and PPT. The document doesn't say if this rule applies to scheduled, charter or both types of flights. Perhaps, I'm missing something.

Satish
 
teva
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:36 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
You don't need a Visa to transit in LAX if you live in Tahiti, France, Australia, New Zealend, most Pacific Islands, Japan, or anywhere in modern Europe. It's a non-issue, because the amount of people who use this flight that need a Visa to transfer is likely close to zero.

You just forget the issue of the biometric passports. For over 6 month, tahitians ad to go to New Zealand to get their visa, making travel impossile for most of them.
And very few airlines serve Tahiti. If someone from a country with no visa exemption for the US wants to visit Tahiti, they cannot fly AF or TN witout going through the nigmare of getting a visa to the US, even if it is only for transit (and, if things have not changed in LAX, to stay in a closed and guarded room during the transit)
Teva
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frequentflyer
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:34 pm

Quoting Astral (Reply 6):
This French carrier ran into considerable security issues with the USA

What do you mean?
Take off and live
 
LPLAspotter
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 12):
Non-stop with A340-500...Great bird!

Would be nice if they had them. Right now the only type of a/c they have in their inventory is the A340-300 with no other type on order (they also never operated the 500 series but were thinking about it as a nonstop to Paris)

LPLAspotter
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Vanguard
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 7):
How ironic, US troops rarely carry passports either. God knows what US military equipment transits third countries.

Indeed! Witness the break-ins at Prestwick Airport in Scotland highlighting the export of US weaponry to Israel.....
 
astral
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:53 am

To answer Jayce question on 'Scheduled Charter' -
Providing a bilateral agreement allows it, airlines can run charters as often as they can provided it meet the charter regulations. Do remember the word 'charter', meaning someone else want to use your airplane, and not the airline itself !!! To by-pass the schedule terms, for example, TN can have a tour operator (or an tour operator that choose TN) in France or Canada to charter long term between CDG-YVR-PPT. In this case, TN cannot sell tickets directly, or market its service directly, do again remember it is now the job of the tour operator. There are other restrictions for charters too, but you can have a so-called schedule charter at any time. I still remember my time at CX back in the 70's when they operate daily 'charters' for years into cities in Japan other than TYO !!
To answer Frequentfler on 'Security with USA' -
Because of TN's passenger type mix, they carried many nationals into South Pacific who of course hold interesting passports. Thus US visa requirement always pops up, security screening pre flight were nightmares. Further compounded by French military personnel and equipment onboard. The US and French political views and stands too at times affect this small French State-owned carrier too.
Overall, TN is a very good airline offering one of the best onboard service. I truly wish they can start their sechedule service into YVR.
 
frequentflyer
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting Astral (Reply 23):
To answer Frequentfler on 'Security with USA' -
Because of TN's passenger type mix, they carried many nationals into South Pacific who of course hold interesting passports. Thus US visa requirement always pops up, security screening pre flight were nightmares. Further compounded by French military personnel and equipment onboard. The US and French political views and stands too at times affect this small French State-owned carrier too.
Overall, TN is a very good airline offering one of the best onboard service. I truly wish they can start their sechedule service into YVR.

Thanks Astral.

Anybody knows who does their maintenance on the 343s?
Take off and live
 
connector4you
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting YVRSR (Reply 18):
Here is a link to the Canada-France bilateral

http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/air-aerien/....html

If you read carefully the bilateral there's no flying allowed beyond Vancouver (coming from Papeete). So I don't think a PPT-YVR-CDG flight has any legal bases as we speak ! PPT-YVR-PPT is however up for takes. On the other hand I've seen an A.net depicting a Corsair B747 landing in Vancouver from Madrid, Spain !

My question is: would Corsair be legally allowed to continue to Papeete and back, out of Vancouver (as per France - Canada bilateral) before returning to Madrid ?
 
raivavae
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:32 am

I am afraid you do not get it right... (but I can understand that, as the situation is tricky with two French State ! on each side of the route!!
ATN do not need any traffic right from Vancouver to Paris, all they need is a refuel stop, already 99%( of ATN) of the pax flying PPT-LAX-CDG are flying directy from Tahiti to Paris, LAX is just a transit (which is becoming a nighmare because of visas, etc...) . And passengers are issued a bording pass in Tahiti showing PPT-CDG. the pax that are flying Tahiti-LAX are using others flights that terminates in LAX and return to Tahiti.

So ATN would fly PPT-YVR-CDG and would not even use it's traffic right right from PPT to YVR as they can not "reload" new pax from YVR to CDG, all of the passengers would be in transit, YVR would be only a "refuel stop"
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:40 am

I've always thought that TN should start a twice weekly PPT-YUL-CDG and start to take advantage of another large French speaking population (Montréal).

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
raivavae
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting Astral (Reply 6):
Main reason why Air Tahiti Nui wants to fly CDG-YVR-PPT is political. This French carrier ran into considerable security issues with the USA. Further more at times there are French military personnel onboard, and that compounded the problem more.
Air Tahiti Nui do have military charters now on occassion through YVR, because French soliders at times do not have 'French' passports especially those with the Foreign Legion. The aircraft also carries 'military items' which IF going through USA would be a huge problem.

that is not the main reason, when the French army had very sensitive material to fly to French polynesia, the routing of the DC 8 were Paris, Pointe à Pitre (in the Carrabean)-Mururoa, if a Dc8 can make it a 340 as well, and now the frrench air Force as 340 as well, so I guess the problem of passports for militaty personnel and sensitive materail si not a big issue, but all of the pax are fed up with the attitude of tsa personnel and disgreement due to new passport and visa requirement for a transit into a secured room at the airport for a french "domestic" flight just transiting in a so called "friend" state...
 
DYK
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:05 am

I will be surprised if Air Tahiti Nieu flies to Vancouver. The Canada-france Bi-laterall is coming up for re-negotiation so you never know what will happen in the future. the only way I can see them pick up YVR-CDg traffic is if Air Canada code shares on the route. AIr Canada has the power in this as ATN can apply for temp. right if AC agrees to it.
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dutchjet
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:35 am

It will be interesting to see if, in fact, Air Tahiti Nui ends up flying a PPT-YVR-CDG route.....there were rumors that they were looking at this route after 9/11 when the new US security and visa regulations that came into effect, but as pointed out above, the visa issues are really a non-issue for French passport holders travelling between PPT and CDG and Air Tahiti Nui stuck with routing its flights via LAX....lets be honest, the LAX-PPT and LAX-CDG traffic is too good to pass up and is of key importance to this small airline.

Then, there was the rumor that Air Tahiti Nui was going to launch nonstop flights between PPT and CDG with A345s.......that never came to be as the airline determined that having a fleet of one A345 dedicated to the route made little sense from an operational point of view and the economics and yeilds of operating nonstop to Paris was simply too risky....flying via LAX is a much safer proposition.

And then came the surprising JFK-PPT nonstop service.....that was designed to connect to the PPT-SYD service. Air Tahiti Nui hoped to open up an exciting new destination for the tainted "been there, done that" crowd in the NYC/NE US area as well as get a piece of the US-Australia market. From what we hear, none of this has worked out very well.....pax flying between JFK and SYD do not seem interested in transiting PPT and NewYorkers dont seem that interested in flying 13 hours for a beach holiday in very very beautiful Tahiti....there are simply too many options that are much closer for US east coast residents. Air Tahiti Nui tried to boost loads on the JFK-PPT flight by operating CDG-JFK-PPT, but that does not seem to have worked out very well either.

Thus, this very good little airline that is based in one of the most beautiful places on Earth seems to have run into a problem....finding profitable routes outside of the traditional PPT-LAX-CDG run. Maybe YVR will be the answer, but without full traffic rights on all segments, its gonna be very difficult. Its certainly an interesting situation to watch.
 
travelin man
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:39 am

Quoting Raivavae (Reply 26):
ATN do not need any traffic right from Vancouver to Paris, all they need is a refuel stop, already 99%( of ATN) of the pax flying PPT-LAX-CDG are flying directy from Tahiti to Paris, LAX is just a transit (which is becoming a nighmare because of visas, etc...) . And passengers are issued a bording pass in Tahiti showing PPT-CDG. the pax that are flying Tahiti-LAX are using others flights that terminates in LAX and return to Tahiti.

That is so incredibly wrong it is laughable. 99% of the passengers fly direct from PPT to CDG???? I just arrived today on TN flight #22 (PPT-LAX, continuing on to CDG). We only flew the PPT-LAX leg, as I live in LA. At least 1/2 of the passengers disembarked at LAX, and did not go on to CDG.

In addition, on the flight LAX-PPT, it was full of people checking in at LAX. And many check in for LAX-CDG as well.

Trust me, the O&D from LAX is VERY important to TN, and it would have to be the same for YVR if they were to start PPT-YVR-CDG flights as well.

(P.S. I concur with those who say their service is excellent -- it was! We did LAX-PPT-AKL, and AKL-PPT with a stopover in Moorea, and then onward PPT-LAX. Fantastic, and the nose-camera view of the take-offs and landings were great!)
 
AF Cabin Crew
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:44 pm

Ia Orana all !

It is very interesting reading all of your comments...
Well back here in Tahiti we were just told that Air Tahiti Nui is in deep financial problems. They had 2 independent companies (one french and one american) do financial reports and they came out with the results a couple of days...
Air Tahiti Nui has many problems and did many mistakes like launching the JFK flight too quickly, spending 250.000 USD per month, not including the actual media fees for inserting the ads, to Saatchi and Saatchi, using the latest aircraft in the fleet, Nuku-Hiva on any other routes than the PPT-CDG-PPT as this aircraft was part of a french financial law that allows french overseas laws to order airplanes, not pay the taxes to France and use the plane so that the population of those overseas territories can go to France... The "Pitate" plan that was launch to save money and the airline was deemed useless as well as it was lacking any real ways to save substantial amounts of money !
The good points that came out were the fact that the Air Tahiti Nui name is synonimous to good service, that its staff is willing to work towards restructuration and deliver good service and that Tahiti is synonimous to paradise to most people.
Now, the JFK flight is very likely to be closed down as its is performing very badly with an average load factor of 30% year round !
Do not expect ATN to launch any new routes for a while as they are going thru some heavy turbulence and won't come out of them for a while... They are bleeding money like crazy and estimated the fuel price extremely badly, they actually were very optimistic and thought it would go down !!!! Crazy, I know !!!
Any way was saying that from what they are saying ATN is going to restructure and try to save itself.

I wish them good luck in their restructuring plan as this airline has a good potential, very nice service and is extremely useful to Tahiti to bring in tourism (which by the way hasn't increased since the launch of ATN).

Good Luck to Air Tahiti Nui !
Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:59 pm

Good post there AF Cabin Crew!

I think the fact that Tahiti has an International Carrier is about the best thing in all of this.

My personal opinion is that they should only be flying to AKL, SYD, LAX, NRT and maybe KIX.

The only reason AF still flies to PPT is because its political and they have to. As for TN flying to CDG well they don't need to when they should set up a code share with AF via LAX, NRT and KIX. If CDG is profitable should they actually contiue it? It would save an aircraft if they didn't.

They don't need JFK and it shows, it operates 3x weekly at 30% loads with connecting flights from AKL and SYD, doesn't seem to help it much it should go.

There are rumours that NZ MAY drop PPT and codeshare with TN which may well be a good thing for TN, it would allow them to maybe bump AKL upto 5x weekly and would take an airline off the PPT-LAX route for them aswell.

I think they should keep

14x weekly PPT-LAX
5x weekly PPT-AKL
4x weekly PPT-SYD
2x weekly PPT-NRT
2x weekly PPT-KIX
 
N1120A
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:20 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 1):
Air Tahati Nui or Air Tahati?

Nui

Quoting Venezuela747 (Reply 4):
Don't they already fly PPT-LAX-CDG....this will help them by getting the traffic that cannot connect throguh LAX due to lack of visas.

Like said, visas are not an issue

Quoting Teva (Reply 19):
You just forget the issue of the biometric passports.

Only for people who didn't already have passports before the changeover date, which I doubt most Tahitians had an issue with. Otherwise, I am assuming they can get a biometric from Paris when their's expire

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 33):
The only reason AF still flies to PPT is because its political and they have to. As for TN flying to CDG well they don't need to when they should set up a code share with AF via LAX, NRT and KIX. If CDG is profitable should they actually contiue it? It would save an aircraft if they didn't.

Actually, AF's flying to PPT does quite well for them. The LAX-PPT market is actually very vibrant and an interesting study in complex route economy. Basically, the high yield O&D flies on the NZ island hoppers, the low yield O&D and cruise consolidator traffic flies on TN and the high yield France-Tahiti traffic takes AF, with that flight also being boosted by AF's dominance of the LAX-CDG market. Further, the CDG extension of the LAX flights is actually a good move by TN. It allows them to pick up some traffic from France but in reality it allows them to make some extra cash soaking up a lot of the untouched LAX-France capacity that AF has dominated for years. Further, they allow themselves to utilize aircraft very efficiently. Remember, PPT is actually much closer to LAX than anywhere in Europe, but is a mere 3 hours behind LAX (2 hours other times of the year because DST is not done there, much like in Hawai'i) meaning the flights come in and depart an kind of strange times. This allows TN to not have planes sitting at LAX
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
dcrusafon
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:23 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 30):
From what we hear, none of this has worked out very well.....pax flying between JFK and SYD do not seem interested in transiting PPT and NewYorkers dont seem that interested in flying 13 hours for a beach holiday in very very beautiful Tahiti

I flown with them last April on a One World Global Explorer fare and the plane was almost empty in the PPTJFK sector. The groud staff told me that this was due as the route was new...


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Photo © Dario Crusafon - Iberian Spotters



This flight was excellent for us as we could visit Manhattan one day and then continue directly to Spain with Iberia...From LAX, no direct flights to Spain.


DARIO
 
connector4you
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RE: Air Tahiti To Start PPT-YVR-CDG?

Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:35 pm

Quoting Raivavae (Reply 26):
I am afraid you do not get it right...

I still think I got it right, cause we were speaking here about the French-Canadian current bilateral that clearly won't allow Air Tahiti Nui fifth rights beyond Vancouver as opposed to French - US bilateral that certainly give ATN rights to pick-up and drop passengers at Los Angeles on its way to/from CDG.

Quoting Raivavae (Reply 26):
ATN do not need any traffic right from Vancouver to Paris, all they need is a refuel stop



Quoting Raivavae (Reply 26):
So ATN would fly PPT-YVR-CDG and would not even use it's traffic right right from PPT to YVR as they can not "reload" new pax from YVR to CDG, all of the passengers would be in transit, YVR would be only a "refuel stop"

I think that would be a bad business decision to drop LAX in favor of YVR unless they plan to use a smaller aircraft on PPT-LAX-PPT rotation only, while rerouting all direct CDG pax trough YVR in order to avoid visa requirement for pax in transit.