keesje
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New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:56 pm

To fill the need for super efficient short range operations, a 100-130 seat Large Regional Jet (LRJ) was developed. In recent years Bombardier backed out, Dornier went broke. Embraer 190/195 series and Large CRJ 's seems to go well at this moment, but don’t offer aircraft over ~ 100 seats. The Boeing 737-600, 717 and A318 are basically 10.000 kg overweight for short haul operations.

In the meantime fuel prices go sky high and F100’s & BAE146s are running out of life.

The LRJ could be produced by a transatlantic JV between Boeing, Dassault and a range of specialist OEM’s. A shorter max 100 seats and longer max 130 seats variant are offered.

http://www.kaktusdigital.com/images/large/klm_lrj_02.jpg
(Picture by Henry Lam http://www.kaktusdigital.com/3d.html for all your customized visualizations)

Engines
2 Engine options are available. The one pictured above has 2 x 62 kN high bypass PW9000 Geared Turbo Fan (GTF) engines, optimized for low noise, low SFC at a cruising speed of around 750 km/hr. For the LRJ a new balance is found between speed and low fuel consumption / environmental impact during short haul operations. New materials enable introduction of light complicated fans and large fan cowlings.

The engine / wing / tail configuration further minimizes downward noise exposure. The wing and horizontal stabilizer shield off much of the fan & exhaust noise during airfield operations in populated areas.

Fuselage / Cabin
The cockpit section, fuselage diameter and various subsystems (e.g. Goodrich landing gear) are inherited from the Dornier 728 RJ family http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0777125/L/ to save development costs & time. The length of the aircraft is 37 meters.

The cabin is optimized for a comfortable 4/5 abreast seating with sufficient luggage space for everyone to facilitate the increasing need of passengers to take luggage with them in the cabin on short trips.


The Honeywell/Thales side-stick cockpit looks very much like a standard Airbus cockpit to ease training/ transfer.

Wings
The wing design of the LRJ is almost entirely made of composites and has a very high aspect ratio wing optimized for low landing speeds, excellent take-off performance and aerodynamic efficiency. Wing span is 33 meters, a few feet short of the A318/B736 wing span.

Performance
The wing, fuselage and engine design of the LRJ are optimized for flying regional services at minimum fuel consumption. The design is optimized for a 750km/hr cruising speed, maximum range is 3700km / 2000nm covering most regional needs. Figure below: 2000nm ranges from Düsseldorf, Atlanta and Hong Kong.
http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gcmap?RAN...S&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=red

The new LRJ design could provide airlines with a super efficient alternative, operating at unmatched fuel efficiency and noise levels in the 100-130 seat regional segment. Operating costs per seat are expected to be 25% lower then comparable NB aircraft and 10-15% lower then comparable RJ's.

Sources
http://ec.europa.eu/research/aeronautics/projects/images/43_2.jpg
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...y/2002973147_boeingconcepts05.html
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0777125/L/
http://money.cnn.com/services/ticker...181107PR_NEWS_USPR_____NETU021.htm

[Edited 2006-08-09 15:03:44]
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Adria
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:10 pm

It sounds interesting. Well Adria is sure a candidate for those aircraft, unless they go for a CRJ 900 or the A318/319.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:23 pm

Sounds very interesting indeed. If someone like Lockheed or Northrup were smart, they would develop this aircraft with Boeing or Airbus to diversify the dependance on military aircraft.
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flydreamliner
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:46 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 2):
Sounds very interesting indeed. If someone like Lockheed or Northrup were smart, they would develop this aircraft with Boeing or Airbus to diversify the dependance on military aircraft.

Lockheed is out of the commercial airplane business, Northrup might do something with Airbus, but I'm not sure what incentive Airbus has to take them on as a partner. I think the thread starter's suggestion of Boeing and Dassault sounds interesting - if it could be made to work, it could be a phenomenal alliance, and it's an outstanding aircraft.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
Jaws707
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:52 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 3):
Northrup might do something with Airbus, but I'm not sure what incentive Airbus has to take them on as a partner.

What you are referring to is the Northrop and Airbus will be working together on the KC-30 (modified A330) aircraft that is being bid to replace to refueling aircraft in the US Air Force inventory. The incentive Airbus has is that without Northrop they pretty much have no chance of getting the contract. Right now it would be split about 50/50 with Airbus providing Northrop an A330 and then Northrop outfitting it with the military electronics to make it work for the Air Force.
 
ksupilot
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:00 pm

If Boeing doesn't do it, Embraer will.

I can see something like this being built:



THe A380 may be the Whale, well I call this the Hog (since it looks so much like an A-10)

[Edited 2006-08-09 16:15:00]
 
keesje
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 3):
Boeing and Dassault sounds interesting - if it could be made to work

There are no indications suggesting RJ cooperation between Boeing and Dassault. However Dassault is closely involved in Boeing 787 design / integration. http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2004/q1/nr_040212g.html

I think many design studies today point towards tail mounted engines. Advantages of this configuration being clean wing design, wing fuel capasity, shorter / light landing gear configurations and long term design flexibility.



One of the disadvantages (hard to reach the engine for inspection/repair) has become less relevant because engines have become extreme reliable and sensors monitor more parameters then ever before.

[Edited 2006-08-09 17:27:51]
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ksupilot
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 6):
think many design studies today point towards tail mounted engines. Advantages of this configuration being clean wing design, wing fuel capasity, shorter / light landing gear configurations and long term design flexibility.

I agree and the most interesting thing is that these are not your standard T-tailed aircraft. They have tail mounted engines, yet they are using new tail configurations. We may see something like Beaker with your standard T-Tail, but I could see something like the "Hog" like aircraft shown above happening as well, as it is not a completely new configuration.
 
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Stitch
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:40 am

A GTF engine, rearward mounted with a wide twin-tail like Henry Lam's design, might very well provide excellent noise reduction properties which would allow such planes to fly earlier and later at many airports. This could improve feed into and out of the hubs, helping make them more efficient by allowing flight blocks to be a bit more spread-out and reducing the capacity strain/traffic jams.

Not sure if either Boeing or Airbus want to play this low, since it would involve a design probably seperate from their 737RS/A320RS programs due to weight - unless CFRP really gets the weight down.

Embraer would be a natural choice for this type of plane, since it would be an extension of their EMB-135/EMB-145 programs (though scaled way up).
 
ksupilot
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
Not sure if either Boeing or Airbus want to play this low, since it would involve a design probably seperate from their 737RS/A320RS programs due to weight - unless CFRP really gets the weight down.

However the aircraft in this image appears to be a bit longer than Lam's design: http://ec.europa.eu/research/aeronautics/projects/images/43_2.jpg

Boeing could make an aircraft that uses this configuration that could fill the 717 to 757 market.

Lam's design could be a shorter -100 variant. This aircraft could be stretched into longer versions, like Boeing did with the 737-900. Boeing could make an aircraft sized around an MD-80 out of this.

[Edited 2006-08-09 17:49:15]

[Edited 2006-08-09 17:50:00]
 
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Stitch
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 9):
However the aircraft in this image appears to be a bit longer than Lam's design...Boeing could make an aircraft that uses this configuration that could fill the 717 to 757 market.

So this could be the 737RS/797? Intriguing...

I wonder if they could make engines powerful enough to meet 225 seats whilst mounted in the rear? And I wonder what noise issues (both external and internal to the cabin) such powerful engines would raise?
 
ksupilot
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
So this could be the 737RS/797? Intriguing...

While the one image comes from a European study, when you look at the Boeing Green Studies, this deisgn does have a chance. You could have a shorter 100 seat variant (-100) which replaces 717, ERJ-195. The -200 would seat around 150 which would replace the 737-500, 737-700, and the MD-80. The -300 would seat around 200 and replace the 737-800, 737-900, and 757-200.
 
baron95
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:44 am

The configuration in the picture in the OP has little chance.

To start, the engines are almost completely blanketing the horizontal tail.

Second, fuselage mounted engines create a lot of bending moment on the wings for short haul (i.e. low fuel in the wings) planes of more than about 70 passengers. That causes the structure of the wing box to be too heavy. There is a reason, you know, why Embraer went through considerable expense to move the engines from the tail to the wings when they went from 50 to 70+ passangers.

Third, the E195, a very recent and efficient design, already is configured with up to 118 seats and is in the middle of the seat range you propose.

Fourth, I'm doubtful that any airline is going to buy a plane with a seat range of only 100-130 with no family comonality either below or above that range.

If any other OEM wants to seriously enter the market, they need to develop a family of aircraft in the 100-200 seat range.
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planemaker
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:27 am

Since no one has mentioned it, the Japanese have not yet given up complete hope on their 100+ seat jet dreams... KHI presented the YPX 110-130 seat concept at Farnborough (they had a large model at their stand). KHI is currently undertaking a feasibility study to launch the project. The YPX is based on the P-X (80 have been ordered to replace the JDA's P-3Cs) and the C-X (40 have been ordered are to replace JDA's Kawasaki C-1s).
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ksupilot
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 12):
The configuration in the picture in the OP has little chance.

To start, the engines are almost completely blanketing the horizontal tail.

That is just an artists take on the idea. For one I don't think the horizontal tail will be angled upwards like that if this thing were to be built.

I expect something more like this:

http://ec.europa.eu/research/aeronautics/projects/images/43_2.jpg

This tail configuration is much closer to that of the A-10. Whether you can transfer a configuraiton that is used on a tank buster to a commercial aircraft remains to be seen. I can see that tail configuration as something more likely when compared to the "Pi-Tail" in the Fozzie concept.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting Jaws707 (Reply 4):
What you are referring to is the Northrop and Airbus will be working together on the KC-30 (modified A330) aircraft that is being bid to replace to refueling aircraft in the US Air Force inventory. The incentive Airbus has is that without Northrop they pretty much have no chance of getting the contract. Right now it would be split about 50/50 with Airbus providing Northrop an A330 and then Northrop outfitting it with the military electronics to make it work for the Air Force.

Well, what you say is exactly right, but the point i was making is that Northrup, already having some form of relationship with Airbus would be more likely to partner with them.

I think Airbus and Boeing would be open minded to participating in such a thing, given the poor sales of the A318/736, as well as a means to extend down into the larger regional jet range.

Then again, Boeing did drop the 717, which was an economical aircraft in this range, so go figure.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
ksupilot
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 15):
Then again, Boeing did drop the 717, which was an economical aircraft in this range, so go figure.

Well they only did that because the 717 could have hurt the 737NG. If they kept the 717 they were going to have to develop the -300, as several airlines were interested. The -300 would have competed directly with the 737.

I am a fan of the 717 but from Boeing's viewpoint I do not blame them for ending production.

I'm pretty sure that we will be seeing tail-mounted aircraft once again. All of the recent studies dealing with smaller narrowbodies have pointed to some form of tail-mounted design.
 
steeler83
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:40 am

It would be neat if they'd develop another tri-jet with a T-tail, but it's not going to happen unfortunately. The days of the 727s have come and gone...

Even if this product is developed into some kind of T-tail concept, it would be sweet; there seems to be fewer and fewer T-tails flying nowadays with the popularity of 737, A318/319/320, and E190 aircraft anymore. The 717 is done, and not coming back to the assembly line, and I looove T-tails!!! Sad

[Edited 2006-08-09 23:43:45]
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afay1
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:44 am

Isn't the aircraft you want being built as the SuperJet 1000 (nee Russian Regional Jet) by Sukhoi and Boeing (current diplomatic spat over weapons supplies notwithstanding)?
 
steeler83
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:48 am

Quoting Afay1 (Reply 18):
Isn't the aircraft you want being built as the SuperJet 1000 (nee Russian Regional Jet) by Sukhoi and Boeing (current diplomatic spat over weapons supplies notwithstanding)?

Isn't that the bird that looks like the 21st century version of the DC9? Then I guess it is... Would I love to see US Airlines purchase some of those...
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ordryan28
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:51 am

that's one neat looking RJ. almost looks like something from space...
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afay1
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:59 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 19):
Isn't that the bird that looks like the 21st century version of the DC9? Then I guess it is... Would I love to see US Airlines purchase some of those...

No, that was the Tupolev 334, which has essentially been killed-off. The RRJ or its ridiculous new name looks a lot like a baby 737....
 
ksupilot
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting Afay1 (Reply 21):
No, that was the Tupolev 334, which has essentially been killed-off. The RRJ or its ridiculous new name looks a lot like a baby 737....

Too bad the Tupolev got axed, very interesting looking.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 17):
It would be neat if they'd develop another tri-jet with a T-tail, but it's not going to happen unfortunately. The days of the 727s have come and gone...

Large T-Tailed Tri-Jets may be gone, but Tri-Jets still exist:

Dassault Falcon 7X

http://www.futura-sciences.com/commu...er/g/data/567/bourget_falcon7X.jpg

Too bad we can't have a stretched RJ version.  Smile
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 3):
I think the thread starter's suggestion of Boeing and Dassault sounds interesting - if it could be made to work, it could be a phenomenal alliance, and it's an outstanding aircraft.

Boeing and Dassault already work quite closely, Dassault has been a contractor for both the 777 and 787.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 13):
The YPX is based on the P-X (80 have been ordered to replace the JDA's P-3Cs) and the C-X (40 have been ordered are to replace JDA's Kawasaki C-1s).

Are any of these proposals twin-jets or do they retain the quad-configuration of the P-X? I can't imagine many opperators willing to go back to short-haul quads unless they are opperating a very narrow niche of opperations that require it... (i.e. STOL)
 
steeler83
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:39 am

Quoting Afay1 (Reply 21):
No, that was the Tupolev 334, which has essentially been killed-off.

Damn... Damn... Damn...

Mark my words, your uppance will come!  point 
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planemaker
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:21 pm

Quoting Dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
Are any of these proposals twin-jets or do they retain the quad-configuration of the P-X? I can't imagine many opperators willing to go back to short-haul quads unless they are opperating a very narrow niche of opperations that require it... (i.e. STOL)

The P-X and C-X are both twin turbo fan powered and the possible YPX is based more on the P-X (low wing) than the C-X which has a high wing configuration. (The YPX model on display at Farnborough looked like an E195 at first quick glance... KHI does build the E-jet wings). However, the P-X and C-X have been designed and are being built at the same time (they have approximately 80% structural commonality). The YPX would leverage that commonality into a pax platform.
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m404
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:20 pm

One obstacle currently in the way of this "regional jet" if used as the term is in the U.S. is the pilots scope agreements. My own carrier just renegotiated it's pilots contract and one of the hardest fought items was raising the "regional" size acft from 50 to 76 or 79 seats. This is typical of most carriers if on the high side. If a company has a new jet out of DC9 family size seating, 100 to 130, they will have to fight pilots unions to get them into a "regional airline" Most likely it would in fact just be the bottom tier of a mainline companies fleet, a 732 or D9s replacement.
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keesje
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:55 pm

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
The one pictured above has 2 x 62 kN high bypass PW9000 Geared Turbo Fan (GTF) engines, optimized for low noise, low SFC at a cruising speed of around 750 km/hr.

Pratt is pushing its GTF engine to Boeing. Long years of R&D have to start bringing in ROI>

The gearbox allows the Turbine & Fan to run at more optimal speeds.This could enable higher bypass ratios & lower fuel consumtion.



Another informative well illustrated article from the Seattle Times.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...technology/2003187675_pratt10.html
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diamond
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:46 pm

I'm no engineer. But wouldn't the thrust blowing right over the top of the horizontal stabilizers generate the same type of lift used in the STOL aircraft of the past?

I know it can work when the engines blow over the wings. But over the tail?

And if there was an engine-out situation, wouldn't that change all the aerodynamics of the stabilizer itself?


Blank.
 
keesje
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:22 pm

Quoting Diamond (Reply 28):
Diamond

True, the horizontal tail has to be out of the engine slip stream. This it the case, in the drawing however the angle of view might be misleading  Wink  Wink

When that is accomplished it has the potential to be lighter then T tails as a result of lower bending moments.

The critical 1 engine out (during take-off at V1) situation might actually be better then is the case with wing mounted engines. The steering power/drag to compensate asymmetric thrust is lower when the engines are closer in line with the CG.

This might translate into a smaller vertical stabilizer (weight / drag).
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ksupilot
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
Pratt is pushing its GTF engine to Boeing. Long years of R&D have to start bringing in ROI>

Looks like they are getting geared up for the 737RS. I wonder what GE will bring to the table. Do you think the 737RS will have several engine options like the 787, or will there be one engine option?
 
planemaker
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
The gearbox allows the Turbine & Fan to run at more optimal speeds.This could enable higher bypass ratios & lower fuel consumtion.

While not as efficient as the gearbox, that is why almost all RR turbofans have a 3 shaft arrangement versus 2 (in GE and P&W engines) as the fan and compressor sections are able to thus run at more optimal speeds.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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Stitch
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 30):
Looks like they are getting geared up for the 737RS. I wonder what GE will bring to the table. Do you think the 737RS will have several engine options like the 787, or will there be one engine option?

If one engine family shows a marked efficiency over it's peers, then I imagine it will be a one-horse race. If the spread if much closer, then it's probable you'll see two suppliers (the two most efficient).
 
ksupilot
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting Dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
Boeing and Dassault already work quite closely, Dassault has been a contractor for both the 777 and 787.

I could see Dassault working with Boeing on the 737-RS as they did on the 787. After, I could see Boeing working with Dassault on a small to large regional jet. Now that I think about it more, I cannot see Boeing directly working on a RJ. The 737-RS will probably start at the size of a 717 and stretch to the 757. The small 717 sized aircraft will be Boeing's take on a larger regional jet.

I can see Dassault coming up with an RJ and Boeing giving some assistance in the project.

Man do i hope for a stretched RJ version of the Dassault Falcon 7X! It's quiet, fast, and efficient.


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Devilfish
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 30):

Looks like they are getting geared up for the 737RS. I wonder what GE will bring to the table.

This might be a stupid question, but would a combination of GTF and GEnx technology as being proposed for the A350XWB work more efficiently at lower thrust requirements? If it could and their contracts allow for them to offer smaller engines in the 737RS size range, then Engine Alliance might have a relatively low-development-cost competitor.
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planemaker
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 33):
I could see Dassault working with Boeing on the 737-RS as they did on the 787.

Huh??? Other than the design software, which is used by a variety of manufacturers, Dassault didn't do any work on the 787...

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q2/nr_050613h-a.html

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 33):
I can see Dassault coming up with an RJ and Boeing giving some assistance in the project.

As a fantasy, perhaps, but I'm sorry there is no commercial basis whatsoever for a Dassault RJ.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 31):
While not as efficient as the gearbox, that is why almost all RR turbofans have a 3 shaft arrangement versus 2 (in GE and P&W engines) as the fan and compressor sections are able to thus run at more optimal speeds.

FI ran an article recently hinting that RR may offer a 3-spool engine in the 20-30,000 lbf range for narrowbody application.

Given that IAE partner Pratt is moving in the opposite direction with the geared turbofan, is their a looming split in engine design? It doesn't look like PW wants to ditch the alliance, but if push comes to shove?

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...gear+to+force+the+pace+on+new.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+high+fuel+prices+favour+more.html

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 34):
This might be a stupid question, but would a combination of GTF and GEnx technology as being proposed for the A350XWB work more efficiently at lower thrust requirements?

GTF technology probably isn't mature enough in time for a debut on the A350. A scaled-up version of the GEnx or a tweaked GP7200 are most probable.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
When that is accomplished it has the potential to be lighter then T tails as a result of lower bending moments.

Lighter than T-tails, but lighter than wing-mounted engines? You're still talking a lot of additional complexity with fuel systems, engine mounting, line maintenance, etc.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
This might translate into a smaller vertical stabilizer (weight / drag).

FBW is already leading to smaller control surfaces, and wing-mounted engines keep proving themselves to be fundamentally lighter. I personally don't expect a deviation anytime soon...
 
PPVRA
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:17 am

Don't forget that Dassault is a partner of Embraer, together with EADS and Snecma. . . and don't forget either that the market for the C-Series (similar size for the proposed aircraft above) is bleak, the reason given by BBD as to why the project has not moved forward.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 25):
KHI does build the E-jet wings

A lot of it has been transferred to Embraer since July 2006. KHI still makes the wing control surfaces, but all metallic parts of the wings are being build by Embraer now.

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
lehpron
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 3):
Northrup might do something with Airbus, but I'm not sure what incentive Airbus has to take them on as a partner.

Knowledge of QSP integrated with a second generation design of Alliance probably...  Wink
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
gregtx
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:32 am

Actually, EADS holds 18.4% of voting control of Embraer---although only 5.7% of actual shares (along with Dassault and Snecma who have 5.7% shares as well). This was restructed several years ago. The pension funds control the most.

This effectively cuts Embraer off of anything in the 'near 130' market since it would dilute the market for 319s and it's replacement. Airbus will not relinquish that market.

Bombardier still keeps 50 folks employed on the C-Series---although I have to wonder if they are marketing, engineers,...or what....

I think Airbus and Boeing will continue to control everything above 120 seats for the foreseeable future.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 25):
The P-X and C-X are both twin turbo fan powered and the possible YPX is based more on the P-X (low wing) than the C-X which has a high wing configuration.

Ah, I see. The only picture of the P-X I've seen is this one below. I suppose it's out of date:



http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...maritime-patrol-aircraft/index.php
 
Devilfish
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:38 am

Quoting Dfwrevolution (Reply 36):
GTF technology probably isn't mature enough in time for a debut on the A350. A scaled-up version of the GEnx or a tweaked GP7200 are most probable.

As stated in the linked article, all the technology would be ready by 2008, and that the GTF was "only a year away from ground test and two years away from demonstration flights." That should see it in time for 737RS EIS, or these projections are overly optimistic.

Quoting Dfwrevolution (Reply 36):
Given that IAE partner Pratt is moving in the opposite direction with the geared turbofan, is their a looming split in engine design? It doesn't look like PW wants to ditch the alliance, but if push comes to shove?

They indeed prefer to offer whatever they come up with through IAE, but given the likely collaboration on the GP7000, a GP 737RS engine isn't a remote possibility, contracts and anti-trust restrictions notwithstanding - unless GE wants to go it all alone with Boeing, which could explain the new P&W agreements.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+bid+to+power+revamped+Airbus.html
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
ksupilot
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:00 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 35):
Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 33):
I can see Dassault coming up with an RJ and Boeing giving some assistance in the project.

As a fantasy, perhaps, but I'm sorry there is no commercial basis whatsoever for a Dassault RJ.

Yeah it is more wishful thinking than anything.
 
planemaker
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:36 pm

Quoting Gregtx (Reply 39):
Actually, EADS holds 18.4% of voting control of Embraer---although only 5.7% of actual shares (along with Dassault and Snecma who have 5.7% shares as well). This was restructed several years ago. The pension funds control the most.

Actually, Embraer restructured in February of this year into "New Embraer". Embraer was recreated with only common shares and the issuance of preferred shares was prohibited.

The 3 main controling shareholders - Cia Bozano and the pension funds Previ and Fundacao Sistel de Seguridade Social, now have 22% of the common stock. The government has a single "golden" share.

Interestingly, shareholder's voting rights are limited to only 5% regardless of the number of shares held.

Other control mechanisms for the new company include restricting the proportion of foreign votes at shareholder meetings to 40%. Brazil’s Government will also need to approve any acquisition of shares representing more than 35% of the company’s capital stock.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:59 pm

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 14):
This tail configuration is much closer to that of the A-10. Whether you can transfer a configuraiton that is used on a tank buster to a commercial aircraft remains to be seen.

No kidding... talk about different design drivers! The A-10 is basically a large gun with a few accessories to make it fly.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
Pratt is pushing its GTF engine to Boeing

Is anybody out there considering something in between a GTF and a UDF propfan, namely a ducted, geared fan with variable pitch?

Quoting Dfwrevolution (Reply 36):
wing-mounted engines keep proving themselves to be fundamentally lighter. I personally don't expect a deviation anytime soon...

If bypass ratio and fan diameter keeps increasing, there comes a point where the weight of the engine isn't as important as the weight of the landing gear required for sufficient ground clearance.
 
thegooddoctor
Posts: 418
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:25 pm

Since when do they call 100-130 seats a "Regional Jet"?

....I thought they called aircraft of that size DC-9s  Wink
The GoodDoctor
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:31 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 41):
As stated in the linked article, all the technology would be ready by 2008, and that the GTF was "only a year away from ground test and two years away from demonstration flights."

But do you really expect that the thrust requirements will be adaquet for the A350 and Airbus will be willing to swollow that risk with so much riding on the line? Airbus got burned by the geared turbofan in the 80s too.

Boeing took a good hard look at PW's non-GTF proposal for the 7E7 and found it too risky...

I fully expect a geared turbofan to be introduced at some point, but more likely in a jet the size of a 737 or E-jet, not a long-haul widebody.

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 44):
If bypass ratio and fan diameter keeps increasing, there comes a point where the weight of the engine isn't as important as the weight of the landing gear required for sufficient ground clearance.

One of the benefits of the geared turbofan is it provides an SFC cut without a dramatically larger fan

And if longer legs aren't viable, there's always a high-wing design
 
Devilfish
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:26 pm

Quoting Dfwrevolution (Reply 46):

But do you really expect that the thrust requirements will be adaquet for the A350 and Airbus will be willing to swollow that risk with so much riding on the line?

Please note that in Reply 34 I specifically asked if GTF/GEnx technology could "work more efficiently at lower thrust requirements" in connection with a possible application to the "737RS size range."

Quoting Dfwrevolution (Reply 46):

I fully expect a geared turbofan to be introduced at some point, but more likely in a jet the size of a 737 or E-jet,

As was my contention.....

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 41):
That should see it in time for 737RS EIS,
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
ksupilot
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 44):
No kidding... talk about different design drivers! The A-10 is basically a large gun with a few accessories to make it fly.

That is why they say that is is the plane built around a gun. Hey I can't argue with the results, I know I wouldn't want to be on the recieving end.
 
keesje
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RE: New 100-130 Seat Large Regional Jet Design

Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:06 am

It's not like this type of tail has never been tried before, the An225 & HE162 have similar tail constructions. The HE162 to avoid jet blast (like above design), the An225 to avoid dirty air coming from the Buran.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway

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