keesje
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Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:09 am

Qantas has made it clear they are very unhappy with the A380 delays. Angry VP´s travelled to Toulouse to tell Airbus to get their act together and demand compensation.

Not very much later they ordered the B787 over the troubled A350.

Qantas showed a lot of interest in the 747-8i, that would be a logical and nice fit below the 12 A380s they can use for only a limited number of routes.

The trend is smaller aircraft will fill in an increasing number of point to point destinations making good use of the 787-9s long range and low seat mile cost.

All said & done, reality is kicking in again. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...story/0,20867,20077276-643,00.html

[Edited 2006-08-09 21:33:38]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
astuteman
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:16 am

Thanks for the links, Keejse.

Quote:-
"The aircraft is meeting all its guarantees," he said. "The airlines not only know that, they have all the figures and facts on the table."

That'll be a surprise to certain of us who seem to imagine that airlines "shut their eyes and hope for the best" on multi-billion dollar contracts...  Smile

Regards
 
khobar
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 1):
That'll be a surprise to certain of us who seem to imagine that airlines "shut their eyes and hope for the best" on multi-billion dollar contracts...

And the quote comes from who? Richard Carcaillet, A380 marketing director, Airbus.

Didn't Airbus also claim there would be no further delays in the A380 before the latest delay was announced?

Yes, the airlines not only know that, they have all the figures and facts on the table.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
All said & done, reality is kicking in again. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au....html

The following quote from the article is interesting,

"Mr Carcaillet said the Singapore decision to boost its fleet before the aircraft entered service was a clear vote of confidence in the A380. ....
But he could not say if Airbus would meet a commitment to deliver its first A380, to be used initially on Singapore-Sydney, to Singapore by the end of the year."

Reality also seems to be that the A380 delivery to SQ before the end of the 2006 is not certain.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
CYatUK
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 3):
Reality also seems to be that the A380 delivery to SQ before the end of the 2006 is not certain.

I am not sure why people are upset about the delay.

As much as it is a fact that the A380 is delayed, it is also a fact that this airplane is the biggest and most advanced passenger airliner ever built. And given that it introduces new technology and things that were not tried before, its delay should be no surprise.

My opinion is that compared to the time that this aircraft will be in service (Ok I agree that we do not know that but usually is 2-3 decades) a 7-8 month delay is nothing.
CY@Uk
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 4):
I am not sure why people are upset about the delay.

SQ has had an extensive advertising campaign underway for some emphasizing that SQ would be the "First to Fly the A380 in 2006". The slogan has even been seen on many of their Executives' business cards.

Given this PR effort, I suspect there are many people at SQ who will be upset if SQ doesn't operate the A380 in 2006.

It is still possible that Airbus will make it, but Mr Carcaillet's lack of commitmtent is interesting.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:00 am

Quote:
But he (A380 marketing director Richard Carcaillet) could not say if Airbus would meet a commitment to deliver its first A380, to be used initially on Singapore-Sydney, to Singapore by the end of the year. He pointed to Airbus statements that a review under new CEO Christian Streiff would analyse what went wrong and provide a revised schedule of deliveries.

Sounds like another delay in in the oven...
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
777STL
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:01 am

I don't really understand the point of the OP or this thread. The OP seems to suggest the selection of the 787 was more or less a dig at Airbus. I disagree, I think it boiled down purely to the fact that the 787 is a better airplane compared to that iteration of the 350. Seems many other airlines felt the same way.

Anyway, if QF wants to expand their cargo operations with their own dedicated freighters, I believe the 748 is a better choice. Compared to the 748, the 380 only seems to excel in package operations where the weight concentration by area is lower. The 748's nose door doesn't hurt either.

We shall see.
PHX based
 
jacobin777
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:01 am

While there is nothing new or surprising here....it's interesting to see QF want to increase their freight service, especially given that...

"Qantas is considering expanding its freight operations as a way of offsetting slumps in passenger traffic and promoting earnings growth."

I think the 747 will be a good fit for QF freighter.......maybe some 747-8F  pray 

I think the A380 seems to be doing fine right now, and to be honest, until we see how SQ does on its A380 routes, we really won't be able to judge how the A380's are performing......
"Up the Irons!"
 
mptpa
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:09 am

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 4):
introduces new technology

What new technology???? BIGGER does not mean it is anything new!! The fuselage is still old tech; materials are basically old (except newer alloys); engines...same; avionics...same; IFE...may be.... It is simply a packaging of existing tried and tested technology on a larger scale!!

It is unlike on the other hand, B787 has lots of things that ARE new technology:
structure - Composite
Engine - Bleedless
Aerodynamics - advanced incl variable dynamic camber
Aero - all electric actuation
Windows - photo chromatic (new comm av app)
Supply chain - pre-stuffed sub-assemblies
Avionics - TCPIP based communications/bus and networking (DO178B qualified)
etc
etc
 
astuteman
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 2):
And the quote comes from who? Richard Carcaillet, A380 marketing director, Airbus.

The fact that Carcaillet quoted it is irrelevant. But he is right.
It amazes that some people actually believe the Airlines don't have a clue what's going on (at Toulouse AND Seattle).

I know exactly what level of oversight we have on procurement contracts of less than £1M, and it's substantial, very substantial.
Even discounted, 19 x A380 has to be the thick end of $4Bn (£2.5Bn), before we start getting into through life support etc etc. What sort of oversight would YOU give a contract that size?
The airlines WILL know.
Whether they've been OFFICIALLY told is a different matter.

I believe it because SQ said so (and both EK and QF also by inference), not Carcaillet.  Smile

(and SQ won't say so just because Airbus said so.....  no  )

A-net can undoubtledly be fun, but a reality check is required occasionally.

Regards
 
khobar
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 11):
The fact that Carcaillet quoted it is irrelevant

The fact that a favourable yet unsubstantiated claim comes from the marketing department of the manufacturer is irrelevant? LOL.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 11):
But he is right.

And you know this...how exactly?

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 11):
The airlines WILL know.
Whether they've been OFFICIALLY told is a different matter.

The airlines "hearing a rumour" is completely different from "the airlines have all the facts and figures on the table." The only way the airlines would have ALL the facts and figures on the table is if Airbus officially put them there.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 11):
I believe it because SQ said so



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 11):
(and SQ won't say so just because Airbus said so..... )

Can you post where SQ said so without referring to what Airbus told them, or are you referring to the followon order? The followon order could just as well be a package deal - I haven't heard word one from SQ about the delays suddenly. Hmmm.....

Anything is possible - the fact of the matter is that no one except some in Airbus actually know the real truth regarding the guarantees.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:55 am

Is ther anything new here? No.
And yes it does sound like another delay is in the works.

Lets hope Airbus is just stupid enough not to announce it like last time.
One Nation Under God
 
aeropiggot
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:59 am

Another misleading header from Airbus favorite son????  bigthumbsup 
A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
 
ma66
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 11):
Even discounted, 19 x A380 has to be the thick end of $4Bn

I'm not sure about that.

Both the SQ order and option/purchase right are from 2001 (price are fixed in 2001). This is also the case for QF and some other orders).

The listprice in 2001 was USD 230M (listprice 19 x A380 USD 4,4Bn). With discount I don't think you can get much higher than USD 3 Bn.
(Unreliable rumours on the internet talks about USD 140M to launch customers.)

Because of this price I don't think there will be any cancelations from any launch customer, because they can't get a better deal from Boeing. And they will use all the options before they even consider to order the 748i.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 13):
Is ther anything new here? No.

Well I'd say that...

"Singapore had ordered 10 A380s, but recently converted nine options to firm orders, saying the aircraft was measuring up well to its technical specifications, and Airbus had demonstrated that the plane's engineering was sound."

A further firm and public vote of confidence in the aircraft and Airbus despite delays et al by SQ was fairly new and significant.

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
zvezda
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 4):

As much as it is a fact that the A380 is delayed, it is also a fact that this airplane is the biggest and most advanced passenger airliner ever built. And given that it introduces new technology and things that were not tried before, its delay should be no surprise.

It's bigger, but there is little on which to stake a claim of most advanced. The B787 hasn't been built yet, but it will be far more advanced when the first one is flying a year from now.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 8):
Compared to the 748, the 380 only seems to excel in package operations where the weight concentration by area is lower.

The WhaleJet will also be better than the SuperJumbo for transportation of flowers.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 11):
Even discounted, 19 x A380 has to be the thick end of $4Bn

That seems very unlikely. Probably nearer $3B. Still, your point that the airlines are paying close attention is correct. Each airline has a rep in Toulouse and another in Finkenwerder with fairly free reign to walk around and observe production. However, Airbus management would not disclose anything that is not obvious. The airline reps don't get to sit in on the internal progess meetings. The same is true with Boeing.
 
keesje
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 18):
The WhaleJet will also be better than the SuperJumbo for transportation of flowers.

I heard it can do LAX-Shanghai non-stop with 150 ton kg & nothing comes close. Heavy drilling equipment is mostly done by boats and old Antonovs anyway  Wink
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Stitch
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:00 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
"Qantas is considering expanding its freight operations as a way of offsetting slumps in passenger traffic and promoting earnings growth."

I think the 747 will be a good fit for QF freighter...maybe some 747-8F.

Not just 747-8F but perhaps even 747-8I. If QF is worried about "slumping traffic" and wishes to "expand it's freight operations", then a 747-8I would address both issues better then an A388 would - it carries less pax and more underfloor revenue cargo - so it might be QF's choice for future expansion over additional A380s (or in addition to fewer A380s).  twocents 
 
zvezda
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 19):
Heavy drilling equipment is mostly done by boats and old Antonovs anyway

Drilling equipment is rarely flown to anywhere near a port because it's rarely urgent enough to justify the additional cost. Much drilling equipment is long and would have to be nose (or tail) loaded so even if it were to be flown, drilling equipment is not a case for support of the WhaleJet.
 
astuteman
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 12):
The airlines "hearing a rumour" is completely different from "the airlines have all the facts and figures on the table." The only way the airlines would have ALL the facts and figures on the table is if Airbus officially put them there.

I've spent 25 years in close proximity to customer representatives.
Whether they're told "officially" or not, those customer representatives WILL know the things that they need to know.

The manufacturers might wish to hide some things, but they won't stay hid for long, and performance in flight testing CERTAINLY won't.
(the depth of the wiring crisis might have been kept from the eye for a while..).

If you want to see it a different way, that's your perogative, but my experience suggests that it is extremely naive to believe that customer reps ONLY know what the manufacturer officially tells them.
Sorry.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 22):
The manufacturers might wish to hide some things, but they won't stay hid for long, and performance in flight testing CERTAINLY won't.

In my experience (four major airplane Certification programs), airplane flight test performance is not very visible to Customer Reps as they have no rights to be observers during flight tests nor to the results. These data are strictly OEM property. Customer Reps usually do not have permission to enter the Certification flight test area.

The Reps typically know only what the OEM's give them in briefings as flight test information is one of those things that the Flight Test organization treats as OEM proprietary data.

If the answers are good, the OEM typically releases the results to both current Customers and the press. The later is vital to future sales campaigns. This why I think it is strange that Airbus has not given definitive answers to performance like fuel mileage, such as:

"One percent better than Nominal"
or
"Meets Nominal Performance"

Saying the A380 meets guarantees sounds like its performance is not up to expectation since guarantee levels are written with a decrement relative to nominal performance to minimize risk to the OEM.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
khobar
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:24 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 22):
Whether they're told "officially" or not, those customer representatives WILL know the things that they need to know.

I suggest instead that the customer reps don't know squat the manufacturer doesn't officially tell them, in writing. Why? Because anything else is inactionable - the company in question can say anything they want, make any promise they want, but unless it's in writing (official), it doesn't mean a hill of beans. Of course the customer can choose to believe what they're being told - after all, it would be extremely naive to think that they wouldn't have all the facts already (from where? who knows, who cares?), and go with a handshake, smile, and a promise. Or the customer can have the promises written into the contract as guarantees with appropriate penalties for non-compliance. I'm guessing the latter is more the norm.

(Remember, it's not what you know, it's what you can prove)
 
zvezda
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:38 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 22):
Whether they're told "officially" or not, those customer representatives WILL know the things that they need to know.

The customers know far more than they are officially told and far less than what the manufacturers know.
 
2wingtips
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:38 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Qantas showed a lot of interest in the 747-8i, that would be a logical and nice fit below the 12 A380s they can use for only a limited number of routes.

The trend is smaller aircraft will fill in an increasing number of point to point destinations making good use of the 787-9s long range and low seat mile cost.

All said & done, reality is kicking in again. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au....html

They may very well order more A380s, but the visit of one Airbus official to SYD is hardly striking evidence. Reality may also kick in with QF ordering more 380s and 748Is. I don't think it is too far fetched that we will see some large long-haul carriers operating both types.
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:00 am

Having read enought threades, articles, etc. about the A380 and the gushing by some carriers about their plans for the aircraft remind me of the same about the 747's.

I'm seeing these airlines receiving these at the start of or in a global economic downturn. This will almost be repeat of the early 1970's when most carriers had taken delivery of the first batch of 747's and had to fly 747's half empty (or worse) on routes that they were never designed for (ORD-CLE??). Carriers having to stick pianos in them to make them look occupied.

Within 5-7 years many of those first 747's were sold off, traded or whatever to obtain aircraft that more filled the bill ( DC-10, L-1011, A-300).

So, JMHO.., but I'll bet that many of these carriers never exercise those options for additional frames and that the 380 will end up at only a few ( 8-10)carriers on some very specific routes. I doubt that todays pax will wait until a specific time of day to fly an A-380 on such and such route, when another carrier has flight leaving at a more preferred time to their destination using a A-330, 777,787 or whatever.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 4):
And given that it introduces new technology and things that were not tried before, its delay should be no surprise.

Yeah, cutting the wiring harrnesses so short they don't allow for the flex of the airplane inflight. You are right, I don't believe that has been tried before.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 19):
I heard it can do LAX-Shanghai non-stop with 150 ton kg & nothing comes close. Heavy drilling equipment is mostly done by boats and old Antonovs anyway

No, the range of the A-380F is 5600nm (10,400 km).
http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...ies/a380/a380f/specifications.html

The distance from KLAX to ZSPD is 6485nm
 
Ken777
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:12 am

If pax volume at QF is sagging then the 748i might be a better choice for them than more 380s. I doubt, however, that QF would make that decision based on short term loads.

In terms on increasing the freight business, what is the potential of QF replacing some of the 744s with the 748i and converting the replaced 744s to freighters?
 
katekebo
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:14 am

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 4):
I am not sure why people are upset about the delay.

I don't know what business you work for, but in 99% of companies if you were responsible for ANY project with a 6+6 months delay, you would be fired on the spot.

The delay in the A380 is costing airlines millions, and will cost Airbus $2 billion over the next two years. It's not a small "detail" - it's a major business screw-up.
 
F14ATomcat
Posts: 83
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:45 am

The real question is what gurantees are being met and what price discounts were offered.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:09 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 7):
Sounds like another delay in in the oven...

This is nothing new, Airbus hasn't committed to a firm, revised delivery schedule pending review by the new management. A new delay may (or may not) be announced in September. Don't act surprised if it does come about.

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 10):
What new technology???? BIGGER does not mean it is anything new!! The fuselage is still old tech; materials are basically old (except newer alloys); engines...same; avionics...same; IFE...may be.... It is simply a packaging of existing tried and tested technology on a larger scale!!

Oh come on, enough hyperbole already. I could be equally right claiming that an A380 has more carbon fiber in it than a B787... how's that for old tech? Avionics are new. Systems are new. I could go on, but why bother? Go read the A380 article on Wikipedia for a start.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 28):

Yeah, cutting the wiring harrnesses so short they don't allow for the flex of the airplane inflight. You are right, I don't believe that has been tried before.

Don't forget this wiring harness is made of aluminum wiring - also a precendent in commercial jetliners... lighter, cheaper, ohh, and it has this nasty habbit of pushing its connections apart and coroding... Anyone who has ever had a house wired with aluminum knows how absolutely special it is. Trust me, if they make an aluminum wiring harness (with too little insulation for interferance, btw - another weight saving feature) work on the A380, that will be a HUGE technological breakthrough, way beyond the 787, and it's largest ever use of carbon composite construction, first ever use of bleedless engines, electrically actuated flight surfaces, and a first jetliner with variable dynamic camber.

Then again, Boeing has a slight advantage over Airbus, a 40 hours work week.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
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autothrust
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 10):
What new technology???? BIGGER does not mean it is anything new!! The fuselage is still old tech; materials are basically old (except newer alloys); engines...same; avionics...same; IFE...may be.... It is simply a packaging of existing tried and tested technology on a larger scale!!

It is unlike on the other hand, B787 has lots of things that ARE new technology:
structure - Composite
Engine - Bleedless
Aerodynamics - advanced incl variable dynamic camber
Aero - all electric actuation
Windows - photo chromatic (new comm av app)
Supply chain - pre-stuffed sub-assemblies
Avionics - TCPIP based communications/bus and networking (DO178B qualified)

Please come down from your 787 hype, its not like the 787 has invented the wheel.
Although dont want to say the 787 isn't a great and fascinating plane.
But you dont seem to know a lot about the A380 as calling it old tech. 

-Composite centre wingbox (biggest in the world)
-High 5000 PSi Hydraulics (first time in a commercial plane)
-Brake to vacate
-Integrated Modular Avionics (IMA) architecture, first used in advanced military aircraft such as F-22 Raptor and Eurofighter Typhoon.
-use of about 35% composites or glare
-Power-by-wire flight controls actuators(first time in a commercial plane)
-enhanced onboard central maintenance system and 150 kVA variable frequency generators
-Its double-deck passenger cabins are widest, along with straightest walls
-25 per cent of its structure is made from composite materials
-most damage-tolerant fuselage sheet ever created
-largest, high-strength, fatigue-resistant upper and lower wing skins ever made
-The avionics data communication networks employed is switched-Ethernet based AFDX following the ARINC 664 specifications.(Ethernet (IEEE 802.3) and UDP/IP (Internet Protocols)
-Bulbless illumination system (programmable multi-spectral LEDs)
-etc..

etc.. summary the A380 is the most modern Plane in the World until the 787.

BTW: Airbus doesnt see the gain in efficiency with bleedless engines. Altough IMO Bleedless is the future.

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 33):
Oh come on, enough hyperbole already. I could be equally right claiming that an A380 has more carbon fiber in it than a B787... how's that for old tech? Avionics are new. Systems are new. I could go on, but why bother? Go read the A380 article on Wikipedia for a start.

 checkmark  Couldnt agree more.

[Edited 2006-08-10 03:39:45]
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
Tom_EDDF
Posts: 423
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 34):
Then again, Boeing has a slight advantage over Airbus, a 40 hours work week.

A bit OT, but I have to reply on that comment. I've been working for a large (100K+ employees) US company since 2000. I've been in local (german) positions, held regional positions in Europe and I'm currently on an assignment to the US.

Trust me. People in Europe effectively don't spend less time at work than Americans. Maybe they got a 35 or 38 hours work week. But that's on paper. Your comment comes across very arrogant. If you get the chance, please come over to Europe and figure out yourself. It's not as bad as you might think. The world isn't just black and white... there are many shades of grey in between...

Cheerio
T

[Edited 2006-08-10 03:40:17]
 
baron95
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:09 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 21):
flight test performance is not very visible to Customer Reps

True enough, however the final cirtified aircraft performance data WILL be provided to every customer in the form of the airplanes flight/operating manual.

Empty weight, take-off performance, fuel consumption, etc will all be documented in the approved flight manual and every customer will have them.

Also, when the plane enters route proving, that that will be shared with the customers and they will most likely be there as observers.
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:59 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):
I think the 747 will be a good fit for QF freighter.......maybe some 747-8F

Mr Gregg of QF recently stated that they were seriously considering the 744BCF and not the 748F. That said, he does seem to favour a variant of the 747 for the freighter role should they go ahead as stated and expand their cargo operations. Early days yet though sir.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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zvezda
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:07 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 28):
Yeah, cutting the wiring harrnesses so short they don't allow for the flex of the airplane inflight. You are right, I don't believe that has been tried before.

Cutting the wiring harness too short to allow for the inflight flex of the airframe seems to have been a necessary weight-saving measure. It was certainly an advance in the sense that no manufacturer had done it before.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:33 pm

Quoting Tom_eddf (Reply 33):
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 34):
Then again, Boeing has a slight advantage over Airbus, a 40 hours work week.

A bit OT, but I have to reply on that comment. I've been working for a large (100K+ employees) US company since 2000. I've been in local (german) positions, held regional positions in Europe and I'm currently on an assignment to the US.

Trust me. People in Europe effectively don't spend less time at work than Americans. Maybe they got a 35 or 38 hours work week. But that's on paper. Your comment comes across very arrogant. If you get the chance, please come over to Europe and figure out yourself. It's not as bad as you might think. The world isn't just black and white... there are many shades of grey in between...

Cheerio
T

Friend, I meant that as a joke. I honestly meant no harm. I have had jobs (and am on my way to another soon) where I work 100 hours, easily, in a week. I'm sure there are people who do the same thing in Europe, and all over. I didn't mean to incinuate Europeans are any less hard working.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:57 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 34):
True enough, however the final cirtified aircraft performance data WILL be provided to every customer in the form of the airplanes flight/operating manual.

Empty weight, take-off performance, fuel consumption, etc will all be documented in the approved flight manual and every customer will have them.

Cruise fuel mileage data is not certified and does not appear in the AFM. Fuel mileage appears in Performance data that is not blessed by the Cert. Agencies.

I agree with your basic premise that the Customer eventually gets the final data. However, we are talking about the availablity of data during flight test, prior to Certification and delivery. There can be a lot of "tweaking" going on before the final configuration is set.

At this stage of the test program though, everything should be locked down for a mid-Dec '06 delivery. Lack of a statement that the A380 has met nominal fuel mileage but that it has met guarantees leads me to believe that the A380 is not performing as well as the brochure (nominal level) would indicate.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
anstar
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:32 pm

Quoting 777STL (Reply 7):
Anyway, if QF wants to expand their cargo operations with their own dedicated freighters, I believe the 748 is a better choice. Compared to the 748, the 380 only seems to excel in package operations where the weight concentration by area is lower. The 748's nose door doesn't hurt either.

Perahps they will use their 744 or 744er fleet and convert them to freighters rather than buy dedicated freighters?
 
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glideslope
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:27 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 1):
Quote:-
"The aircraft is meeting all its guarantees," he said. "The airlines not only know that, they have all the figures and facts on the table."

Please, this is Airbus. Let's see the numbers after a year of EIS. IMO, you can take figures and facts from Airbus any way other than accurate.

IMO, the 380 will be no different.  Smile
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
jacobin777
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:55 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 35):
Mr Gregg of QF recently stated that they were seriously considering the 744BCF and not the 748F. That said, he does seem to favour a variant of the 747 for the freighter role should they go ahead as stated and expand their cargo operations. Early days yet though sir.

Regards, PanAm_DC10

Hi PanAm_DC10.... Smile

I do recall reading that the 744BCF was being considered (thanks for reminding me), I was only hoping for the 747-8F to be in the mix.. bigthumbsup  pray 


Cheers...

Jacobin777.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
N5716b
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:42 pm

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 28):
I don't know what business you work for, but in 99% of companies if you were responsible for ANY project with a 6+6 months delay, you would be fired on the spot.

Now I'm not so sure about that, Katekebo. Were this the computer industry, I'd agree that the person responsible for the FIRST six month delay (let alone the second) would have been shown the door before their first cup of coffee. But airframe manufacturing is a different kettle of monkeys. As Airbus hasn't put out the specs on exactly why the A380 has been delayed (in PDF on their website, signed by the CEO, with footnotes and a glossary for us yahoos who happened to stumble on it), so there may well be a valid safety based reason for it. Thus, I don't think they should have been fired on the spot.

Of course, this is just wild, CNN style speculation on my part and may or may not have any bearing on the whys and whethers in this instance.

Bottom line is, nobody really knows how well the A380 will do in this world of $70/barrel oil and falling passenger numbers. Maybe it will find itself as the proud recipient of The Plane That Killed The 747. Personally, I doubt it, but who knows. As a passenger who finances his own travel, if it provides cheap seats to where I want to go and when, that's what I fly, regardless of the location and number of engines, and whether or not it has a side stick or a standard column.

I suspect there's a lot of folk out there that see things in a similar light.
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RedChili
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 25):
I doubt that todays pax will wait until a specific time of day to fly an A-380 on such and such route, when another carrier has flight leaving at a more preferred time to their destination using a A-330, 777,787 or whatever.

Do you really think that airlines are so stupid that they would put the 777 on the flights "leaving at a more preferred time," and put the A380 on a flight at the most inconvenient schedule?
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
sebolino
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 37):
Friend, I meant that as a joke.

Not so sure.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 37):
I have had jobs (and am on my way to another soon) where I work 100 hours, easily, in a week.

Actually I don't believe you. If true, that's called slavery.  Smile
 
AirSpare
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 16):
The WhaleJet will also be better than the SuperJumbo for transportation of flowers

Another first! The world's largest flying refrigerator!  eyepopping 

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 28):
don't know what business you work for, but in 99% of companies if you were responsible for ANY project with a 6+6 months delay, you would be fired on the spot.

I delivered data services 15 weeks late, causing the customer to delay launching 2 cities !!!! The Project Manager was not fired, he was promoted! Arrgghhh, I hate to say it, but he is French, and so is his director. This was due to ordering the wrong fiber optics and a network design 40 days late. I just left another of their projects, guess what? Yea, wrong fiber and no design. I really don't want to bash the French, but I work for an international company, and it always happens with these guys. Fired? Nope, promoted.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 31):
Trust me, if they make an aluminum wiring harness (with too little insulation for interferance, btw - another weight saving feature) work on the A380, that will be a HUGE technological breakthrough, way beyond the 787

Hey, it's all new and improved, but I can't see Al wiring an advance over wireless IFE. The thing, is to have fun.

OT, yesterday I arrived in MCO from LHR at 1420L on AA 57 (F Class, awesome seat, I love upgrade miles!). I originated in DXB where I was thoroughly searched as I had checked a lot of camera equipment, fiber stuff like scopes, lasers, test equipment, computers, test cables, patch cords, etc. When I checked into the Flagship Lounge on Terminal 3 at LHR, the gal at the Lounge desk asked me if I had anything in my checked luggage that looked like a gun. What a weird question at a lounge. I told her probably, I was searched at DXB, and had a lot camera equipment, microscopes, and the work stuff. Odd, anyway, I made it out of dodge just in time.

AirSpare
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Stitch
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:50 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 35):
Mr Gregg of QF recently stated that they were seriously considering the 744BCF and not the 748F. That said, he does seem to favour a variant of the 747 for the freighter role should they go ahead as stated and expand their cargo operations. Early days yet though sir.



Quoting ANstar (Reply 39):
Perahps they will use their 744 or 744er fleet and convert them to freighters rather than buy dedicated freighters?

Well that would make sense for QF's spare 744s that have been replaced by A380s.
 
EI321
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting N5716B (Reply 42):
falling passenger numbers.

Since when are passenger numbers falling?
 
jacobin777
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:37 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 47):
Since when are passenger numbers falling?

Have you bothered to read the article?

I'll give you a hand (snippet from the article).... Smile

"Qantas is considering expanding its freight operations as a way of offsetting slumps in passenger traffic and promoting earnings growth."
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EI321
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RE: Qantas, Airbus A380 Delays & The Boeing 747-8i

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 48):
Have you bothered to read the article?

I thought he was refering to global traffic, not Qantas

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