FlyPNS1
Topic Author
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:46 pm

DL is now saying that they could fly SLC-Europe in 2007, if SLC airport authorities provided the right incentives in the next few months.

http://www.sltrib.com/business/ci_4159944

I have doubts about this route, but I guess if LH can make PDX-FRA work, then maybe SLC-CDG can work. Particularly, since SLC is a good sized hub whereas PDX is not.

Another interesting quote from the article:

Quote:
"For example, a city we will be announcing in three weeks has given [Delta] $6 million," Hauenstein said. "It's not an insignificant amount of money. But it's high-risk, high-reward for everybody."

I wonder who this mystery city is???
 
User avatar
mbm3
Posts: 698
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:54 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:16 pm

I would have to say CDG or AMS to make the Skyteam connections work best for them.
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
Delta4eva
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:20 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Thread starter):
I wonder who this mystery city is???

Sounds to me like it could be a FLL-Europe flight? Or it could be a new city in
Europe trying to woo DL with a flight from JFK or ATL.
FLY DELTA JETS
 
DALelite
Posts: 1318
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 7:00 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:41 pm

i doubt that this will work.

DALelite
They loved to fly and it showed..
 
BigGSFO
Posts: 2214
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:27 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:45 pm

Could DL Fly SLC-Europe in 2007? Of course they could. DL could fly SLC-Europe now if they felt there was a market profitable enough to enter. What difference will 2007 make? I am still skeptical a SLC-Europe flight be a winner and do not think just because it is to a Skyteam hub that it will be a success.
 
User avatar
SLCUT2777
Posts: 3407
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:17 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Thread starter):
I have doubts about this route, but I guess if LH can make PDX-FRA work, then maybe SLC-CDG can work. Particularly, since SLC is a good sized hub whereas PDX is not.

I really don't think this is the best network planning on the part of DL at this time. PDX is a bigger market than SLC, even though SLC is a much bigger hub and many more connecting flights. Both PDX and SLC are neck and neck as for O&D passengers in 2005 coming in at about 10-11 million each. SLC is by and large the hub that it is due more to it's geographical location in the middle of the 11 western US states than its market size. The Wasatch Front has about 2 million people SLC can draw from for O&D flights, where as the Willamette Valley is closer to 3.5 million. If PDX were a larger focus operation for DL, it would be a much better choice for a Paris CDG flight than SLC.
The other big factor against SLC is the obsolete nature of its terminal. It can handle a few flights to Mexico and the trans-border operations to Canada, but it isn't set-up for flights to Europe. I would have to advise a no-go on this one to DL.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2614
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 5):

I really don't think this is the best network planning on the part of DL at this time. PDX is a bigger market than SLC, even though SLC is a much bigger hub and many more connecting flights. Both PDX and SLC are neck and neck as for O&D passengers in 2005 coming in at about 10-11 million each. SLC is by and large the hub that it is due more to it's geographical location in the middle of the 11 western US states than its market size. The Wasatch Front has about 2 million people SLC can draw from for O&D flights, where as the Willamette Valley is closer to 3.5 million. If PDX were a larger focus operation for DL, it would be a much better choice for a Paris CDG flight than SLC.
The other big factor against SLC is the obsolete nature of its terminal. It can handle a few flights to Mexico and the trans-border operations to Canada, but it isn't set-up for flights to Europe. I would have to advise a no-go on this one to DL.

I disagree that a SLC-Europe (most likely CDG) would be unsuccessful. A 767-300 would be perfect for the route and would allow passengers in smaller markets without nonstop service to CVG, JFK, and ATL (GEG, PSC, EUG, BIL, HLN, FCA, LGB, MFD, PSP, YYJ, YQL, YEG, etc.) an easy connection to Europe. In the Top 200 US O&D markets, SLC had a healthy 10 million annual passengers, more than STL, RDU, and PIT) all of whom have had European service, and with and RDU not having the feed of 350 daily flights. The only routes I think would work would be LGW or CDG, the latter being most likely. I think a lot of DL fliers or fliers in general would rather go SNA/ONT-SLC-CDG than SNA/ONT-ATL-CDG, for example, and I think that DL will bank on that.

Jeremy
 
BigGSFO
Posts: 2214
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:27 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 6):
I think a lot of DL fliers or fliers in general would rather go SNA/ONT-SLC-CDG

Actually, SNA/ONT DL flyers will go AF LAX-CDG....
 
MastaHanky
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 7:02 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:23 am

I'm sure an airline would be happy to fly SLC-ADD with four daily 747s if you provide a big enough incentive.  Big grin

While I'm still a bit unsure of the feasibility of this route, I do hope it comes to fruitition, as I would use it several times a year.
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:25 am

SLC-CDG is the only realistic route, because DL would have hub feed at both ends, which would contribute most of the pax for the flight. With SLC at around 350 daily flights now, the feed is definitely there, though obviously not all flights are available for connections.

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 2):
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Thread starter):
I wonder who this mystery city is???
Sounds to me like it could be a FLL-Europe flight? Or it could be a new city in
Europe trying to woo DL with a flight from JFK or ATL.

Likely the latter, given that DL says that they'll announce a new city, and for $6 million, it'd have to be a new international destination, with Europe being the obvious favorite, although who knows, it could be in Africa as well, with them soon adding DKR, JNB and ACC to their list. Perhaps another city now saw that DL is finally serious about Africa as well and is saying, "Hey why not, maybe they'll come here too if we offer them incentives."
 
User avatar
SLCUT2777
Posts: 3407
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:17 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 6):
I disagree that a SLC-Europe (most likely CDG) would be unsuccessful. A 767-300 would be perfect for the route and would allow passengers in smaller markets without nonstop service to CVG, JFK, and ATL (GEG, PSC, EUG, BIL, HLN, FCA, LGB, MFD, PSP, YYJ, YQL, YEG, etc.) an easy connection to Europe. In the Top 200 US O&D markets, SLC had a healthy 10 million annual passengers, more than STL, RDU, and PIT) all of whom have had European service, and with and RDU not having the feed of 350 daily flights. The only routes I think would work would be LGW or CDG, the latter being most likely. I think a lot of DL fliers or fliers in general would rather go SNA/ONT-SLC-CDG than SNA/ONT-ATL-CDG, for example, and I think that DL will bank on that.

While your logistics make sense Jeremy, the O&D numbers are big in determining how viable such a new service would be as well as the overall size of the market as I eluded to in my post above. SLC will get flights to CDG and LGW or maybe even FRA, but not until more like 2010 or there after. PIT, STL , RDU & CLT might not have stellar O&D numbers but all of them have larger markets in which to draw O&D numbers.
Again the terminal here is very small and cramped in relation to the number of passengers now served, and also the runways at SLC do face weight restrictions more often than they should to deal with one of these flights with a fully fueled and laden 763ER. One runway needs to at least be extended from its present 12,000' to at least 15,000' before such flights are truly viable from here in relation to physical facilities. For it's size and passenger load, I can't give SLC very high marks for the later right now. Not one I would like to taught as being worthy of overseas service.

P.S. I do appreciate your mentioning year around service to YYJ and new service to YQL in the logistics of your post.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 7):
Actually, SNA/ONT DL flyers will go AF LAX-CDG

Why would anyone way out in Ontario want to travel to LAX if they didn't have to? There are times of the day when driving in from San Diego takes less time.

When I used to fly out of the L.A. area over a decade ago, my preferred way to Europe was via DEN on CO's flight to LGW. Even though I lived closer to LAX in terms of miles, I could get to BUR, parked and checked-in in far less time. And that was in the days of relatively easy security checks.
International Homo of Mystery
 
B4REAL
Posts: 2557
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:53 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:53 am

I actually think DL (if it had capable craft) would be better off flying to Europe from SLC. That is just my opinion, chew me up if desired...
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Posts: 5478
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 6):
In the Top 200 US O&D markets, SLC had a healthy 10 million annual passengers, more than STL, RDU, and PIT) all of whom have had European service, and with and RDU not having the feed of 350 daily flights.

Look at it this way.. if AA dropped the RDU-LGW service.. Delta could just as easily pick it up and use the RDU flights as connections.. so that not only woudl they get the subsidies, but they could also use it for connecting opportunities..

my point being that even though RDU, STL, and PIT may have less people living int them.. they all have the same capabilities of pulling connecting traffic that SLC has.. regardless of it being a hub or not. Should AA decide, they could do STL-Europe.. US could do PIT-Europe.. both of those have enough draw.. RDU-Europe can be done with subsidies, but RDU also has enough connecting oppoortunities (should they be times right) to fill at leas a 767..


Oh.. and BTW.. RDU has a O&D pull last year of 9.4 Million.. not that much of a difference..

Anyway.. that's all I got to say..
Aiming High and going far..
 
User avatar
SLCUT2777
Posts: 3407
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:17 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:16 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13):
Oh.. and BTW.. RDU has a O&D pull last year of 9.4 Million.. not that much of a difference..

Actually the big difference is that RDU has a greater population to draw from, and SLC is way out in the middle of nowhere as I've said. SLC would need to be at DEN or PHX numbers to be a viable port to Europe.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15265
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:30 am

On a related note, did anyone see DL's schedule updates in the SSIM this morning? Interesting stuff!
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2614
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 14):
Actually the big difference is that RDU has a greater population to draw from, and SLC is way out in the middle of nowhere as I've said. SLC would need to be at DEN or PHX numbers to be a viable port to Europe.

No it doesn't. O&D constitutes the number of people who use the airport yearly as a originating or terminating point, where SLC has 10.4 million passengers. The area around DEN or any other city is included in O&D, it's the number that uses the airport. While DEN or PHX have a larger population, it means nothing about O&D. MSP is smaller than DTW but generates more O&D yearly. O&D is independent of population for the most part.

Jeremy
 
haggis79
Posts: 535
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:05 pm

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:45 am

Well, if it's gonna go to CDG, I might well be using this route about three times a year until 2008... don't know if I should be happy about it, I usually prefer AF's longhaul economy product over DL's.... on a side note, are there any news about Delta's talks with Panasonic about fitting PTVs in their 763ERs? Are we by the way talking about a daily service here ore more about something in the 3/7-range?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
On a related note, did anyone see DL's schedule updates in the SSIM this morning? Interesting stuff!

No, but what are they saying there?
300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15265
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 17):
No, but what are they saying there?

I don't know if I should say but I would assume there'll be an announcement some time today. I don't work for DL or anything but I want to make sure I'm not announcing anything that's confidential. It was in the OAG ssim today though...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
vega
Posts: 1161
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:56 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:01 am

Pittsburgh has been agressively talking to every potential airline about restarting Europe service. US stated recently that they would need a yearly revenue guarantee of about $11M to consider a 757 to Europe. If you read all of the Pittsburgh press take on all of this, it appears the city business community has the means and motivation to provide financial support to whoever offers the service. I just wonder if this new Delta city is Pittsburgh. Of course, an opposing view would be that if DL did offer the service, US would likely counter with a flight. That could significantly reduce any chance of their success, since most of the service would be O&D.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2614
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
I don't know if I should say but I would assume there'll be an announcement some time today. I don't work for DL or anything but I want to make sure I'm not announcing anything that's confidential. It was in the OAG ssim today though...

If they're in the schedule then it's not confidential. What does it say?

Jeremy
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15265
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:29 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 20):
If they're in the schedule then it's not confidential. What does it say?

2x daily SFO/OAK/SMF/LAS-LAX on RJs plus some Mexico stuff.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:11 am

Delta is very focused on building service to Europe from (1) its mega hub at ATL where DL can make just about any reasoable route work successfully and (2) its recently rediscovered JFK gateway city which serves one of the biggest and most important O&D markets in the world and provides some connecting service, and DL will maintain its transatlantic service out of CVG which handles a lot of connecting traffic in the Delta system. There is simply no need to open up a route from SLC to Europe.

Back in the early 1990s, when Delta first took over the Pan Am transatlantic route system, most expected Delta to open up a SLC-FRA route....at the time, FRA was a major DL city that offered connecting service. DL operated from LAX, DFW, even MCO to FRA.......but a SLC-FRA route never materialized eventhough, back then, SLC was a major DL hub. True, that was then, and this is now, but I dont think that so much has changed. SLC makes a good regional hub for DL, allowing coverage of the Western states (no pun intended), but a European connection is not required. Pax from west coast cities can already easily fly DL to Europe via CVG, ATL and in many cases JFK.

Eventually, if DL continues to build the SLC hub and add more service, a transatlantic route may come.......it would, of course, be SLC-CDG to allow for connections through Europe on SkyTeam flights.
 
oakjam
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:22 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:12 am

Dear Vega:

Please no more PIT cheerleaders. Let's remember how Pittsburgh is 100x better than NY LOL :-P You know when I think of Vacationing....I forget about the statue of liberty and think about visiting the steel mills of Western PA. Huh!!!!!!

Reality is that DL will either beef up LAX a little more with either RJ or 737 service to other California cities to connect the dots better. I am hoping that DL could consider OAK in future plans maybe trans-pacific flights or European service as OAK will grow in the next few years with a new terminal (there are talks of a T3) and extension or T1(But all of that is a dream of mine).
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Thread starter):
Quote:
"For example, a city we will be announcing in three weeks has given [Delta] $6 million," Hauenstein said. "It's not an insignificant amount of money. But it's high-risk, high-reward for everybody."

I wonder who this mystery city is???

It's Pisa. Bank on it. I think it is out of JFK...
 
CentPIT
Posts: 978
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:48 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:33 am

Quoting Oakjam (Reply 23):
Please no more PIT cheerleaders. Let's remember how Pittsburgh is 100x better than NY LOL :-P You know when I think of Vacationing....I forget about the statue of liberty and think about visiting the steel mills of Western PA. Huh!!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHA....would almost be funny if your facts were straight! The steel mills are no longer in Pittsburgh smart a**! Take a look...

Big version: Width: 400 Height: 300 File size: 36kb
Downtown Pittsburgh, a beautiful sight!


Quoting Vega (Reply 19):
Of course, an opposing view would be that if DL did offer the service, US would likely counter with a flight.

I doubt US would defend PIT-Europe, they don't need to waste money now. They would be so stupid to add a flight just for competition.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13):
my point being that even though RDU, STL, and PIT may have less people living int them

The City of Pittsburgh is larger than RDU, STL, and SLC.

MSA of Pittsburgh as of 2005: (2,315,488)

Population of City: (350,363)

Population of Allegheny County: (1,336,449)
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
laxatljfkcvg
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:32 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:35 am

TOOOOOO LONGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! JETTTTTT LAGGGGGGGGGG  old 
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7071
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:43 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
2x daily SFO/OAK/SMF/LAS-LAX on RJs plus some Mexico stuff.

What their ops @ SAN? I know they fly to ATL, LAX,SLC,CVG,and JFK. Are they adding flts to lax?

I'm betting on SLC-CDG.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 27):
I'm betting on SLC-CDG.

Trust me. The next big announcement is JFK-Pisa...
 
bohica
Posts: 2304
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:21 pm

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:58 am

I wonder if the Mormon Church has anything to do with it. They have 11 temples in Europe and 3 in Africa as well as others worldwide. I would think a SLC-Europe route would be a very convenient business tool for them as well as a convenient route for all their missionaries who fly worldwide.
 
vega
Posts: 1161
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:56 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:17 am

Quoting Oakjam (Reply 23):
Dear Vega:

Please no more PIT cheerleaders. Let's remember how Pittsburgh is 100x better than NY LOL :-P You know when I think of Vacationing....I forget about the statue of liberty and think about visiting the steel mills of Western PA. Huh!!!!!!

If you examine my history of postings you will note how invalid your assumption is identifying me as a PIT cheerleader. My original comment that PIT could be the city DL is considering is based on the statement from Delta that they will announce a new flight to Europe next week from a U.S. city that has committed $6M. Pittsburgh officials have recently talked to Delta (among others) to start service and have made it clear publicly they are willing to financially support a flight. So why does one have to be a PIT cheerleader to come up with the possible result that the city may be Pittsburgh?

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 25):
I doubt US would defend PIT-Europe, they don't need to waste money now. They would be so stupid to add a flight just for competition.

I cannot believe you made that statement after your group of PIT flag wavers have been touting the fact and crying (infinitem) that Pittsburgh has the O&D passengers to support a European flight but no one will come. What - have you suddenly become a PIT basher?
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
Delta4eva
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:20 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:18 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 28):
The next big announcement is JFK-Pisa.

I believe you, but it seems like it would be more logical to fly JFK-Florence.
FLY DELTA JETS
 
MastaHanky
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 7:02 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:23 am

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 31):
I believe you, but it seems like it would be more logical to fly JFK-Florence.

Agreed on both points.

That'd be a first TATL for either city, wouldn't it?
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15265
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 27):
What their ops @ SAN? I know they fly to ATL, LAX,SLC,CVG,and JFK. Are they adding flts to lax?

No change there...just the intra California stuff and 2 or 3 Mexican destinations.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:37 am

Quoting MastaHanky (Reply 32):
Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 31):
I believe you, but it seems like it would be more logical to fly JFK-Florence.

Agreed on both points.

That'd be a first TATL for either city, wouldn't it?

Florence wouldn't put the cash up.
 
stl1326
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:07 pm

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 25):
The City of Pittsburgh is larger than RDU, STL, and SLC.

MSA of Pittsburgh as of 2005: (2,315,488)

Population of City: (350,363)

Population of Allegheny County: (1,336,449)

Sorry I can't resist, but the St. Louis city population is 352,572 and the MSA of St. Louis is 2,786,728. Got my info from www.econdev.stlrcga.org.
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2121
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:57 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 24):
It's Pisa. Bank on it. I think it is out of JFK...

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I thought the EU made such service subsidies illegal.
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Posts: 5478
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:39 pm

Well then, with all this population.. sounds to me like ya'll need to pull a RDU and bring a subsidy to the table. Quit tripping. If you want the flight, ya better be ready pull some some cash out the yangyang..

Cause it seems RDU has the least amount of people, but the best flight..

How does RDU cache business-wise compare to SLC, STL, and PIT? Is it better, the same, or worst? Hmmm.. riddle me this.
Aiming High and going far..
 
TokyoNarita
Posts: 556
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:30 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:27 pm

I am reading the article...but I am wondering if there is any problem with Delta's B767-300ER's performance on 90F-100F temp in the middle of the summer in high altitude airport like SLC to CDG? I think there is a good reason why one of DEN's runways is 16000ft. The mountains around the airport also strike my interest. Just curious in that area. If the flight keeps getting payload restrictions in the middle of the summer when a lot revenue is generated, it would be very tough to suceed.

TokyoNarita.

[Edited 2006-08-11 06:33:57]
 
A330323X
Posts: 2666
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:06 pm

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:34 pm

Quoting Vega (Reply 30):
My original comment that PIT could be the city DL is considering is based on the statement from Delta that they will announce a new flight to Europe next week from a U.S. city that has committed $6M. Pittsburgh officials have recently talked to Delta (among others) to start service and have made it clear publicly they are willing to financially support a flight.

Whether or not the city is PIT, I don't know.

But if it is, that would just again go to show how delusional the PIT cheerleaders are who maintain that PIT doesn't have more service because US "hates" them. In fact, it's PIT/ACAA who are the irrational ones with all the hate. They offered US a whopping $700,000 to fly transatlantic. Offering DL $6 million would just prove that PIT/ACAA expects US to play by different rules than everyone else and fly things just because PIT "deserves" it.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
User avatar
SLCUT2777
Posts: 3407
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:17 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:06 pm

Quoting TokyoNarita (Reply 38):
I am reading the article...but I am wondering if there is any problem with Delta's B767-300ER's performance on 90F-100F temp in the middle of the summer in high altitude airport like SLC to CDG? I think there is a good reason why one of DEN's runways is 16000ft. The mountains around the airport also strike my interest. Just curious in that area. If the flight keeps getting payload restrictions in the middle of the summer when a lot revenue is generated, it would be very tough to succeed.

That is my entire point is that in order to effectively operate this service SLC needs to increase the length of one of their runways from 12,000' to 15,000' to get a Boeing wide body off the ground fully fueled and laden in 100 degree Fahrenheit (40 C) weather. Both 763ERs and 772ERs will not be able to depart SLC on such hot days without making a fuel stop somewhere northeast of here with a longer runway. The terminal here is another matter, they call the E concourse the International terminal, yet it is one big super CRJ/EMB-120 hub of all things. Who are they trying to kid in attracting a flight to Europe from SLC?

Quoting Vega (Reply 19):
I just wonder if this new Delta city is Pittsburgh. Of course, an opposing view would be that if DL did offer the service, US would likely counter with a flight. That could significantly reduce any chance of their success, since most of the service would be O&D.

Time to put down the crack-pipe! PIT has ZERO chances of regaining service to Europe from DL not to mention US. The truth is, PIT has had declining O&D numbers for years, which is why US dumped them as a hub and let WN come in and pick up the pieces. A PIT-SLC direct flight wouldn't be the least bit surprising since PIT is in dire need of west coast connection alternatives, and an SLC flight would do wonders for that. DL lacks the frequent flier base in PIT to do such an operation to CDG anyhow.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
vega
Posts: 1161
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:56 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:09 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 40):
Time to put down the crack-pipe! PIT has ZERO chances of regaining service to Europe from DL not to mention US. The truth is, PIT has had declining O&D numbers for years, which is why US dumped them as a hub and let WN come in and pick up the pieces. A PIT-SLC direct flight wouldn't be the least bit surprising since PIT is in dire need of west coast connection alternatives, and an SLC flight would do wonders for that. DL lacks the frequent flier base in PIT to do such an operation to CDG anyhow.

You're preaching to the Choir. Further I strongly object to your insinuation that I take Drugs. If you can't be civil in your reply - take it someplace else!

[Edited 2006-08-11 07:13:19]
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1209
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:27 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 37):
How does RDU cache business-wise compare to SLC, STL, and PIT? Is it better, the same, or worst? Hmmm.. riddle me this.

I would guess the same, but having a GSK in the Raleigh-Durham area with a HQ located near LGW does not hurt their cause at all. I don't think there is any businesses in STL or PIT willing to fork over that kind of jack to get a flight.

And SLC would have to be more tourist than business oriented...
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:15 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 36):
Please correct me if I am wrong.

I thought the EU made such service subsidies illegal.

The EU is not very clear on that. They prohibit subsidies that are only being offered to one carrier but not others (e.g. Ryanair at LBC), or in the case that tax money is being used for one carrier in a city where there's already lots of service at another airport (Ryanair at Charleroi). Not sure of Pisa, but if this will be at least partially funded by local banks or other companies, it is perfectly legal for the EU.
 
elmothehobo
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:10 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:36 pm

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 34):

Florence wouldn't put the cash up.

... nor do they have a runway anywhere near long enough to handle a 767. The biggest scheduled aircraft Florence sees is a 737, and that is pushing it.

Pisa's runway is almost 10'000 feet long.

It really doesn't matter which one you serve, DL will probably call Pisa-Florence Galilee or something to that extent.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:43 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 22):
SLC makes a good regional hub for DL, allowing coverage of the Western states (no pun intended), but a European connection is not required

You could argue that about a lot of hubs…why does Texas need service to Europe. It is a much smaller O&D than most Eastern gateways but they still have it. Texas has European service because it has enough local traffic to provide more than a fuel stop for a flight going elsewhere and because there are large hubs in Texas to distribute traffic.

The real answer is that most cities want to be as connected to the world as possible because it develops the economy – usually for both business and tourism. In this case, this particular city is apparently willing to pay something to overcome the financial risk to get connected to the world. SLC will get air service if they are willing to minimize the risk to Delta in starting up the route.

Regarding the announcement in a couple weeks, DL apparently seems to be moving into the position of helping develop a lot of smaller cities using economic incentives… and the 767 is well-suited to develop long-thin international routes. Several airlines have recently sought out a number of cities to begin service to as long as the city provided financial incentives. In most cases, the city is not willing to permanently subsidize it but some are. Wichita still cannot support air service to ATL on FL without subsidies so the local govt is willing to continue to poor money into FL to keep the little a flying to ICT.

I doubt if many cities are willing to permanently subsidize an international air route but DL does have the planes to help develop new routes to cities that otherwise might not have it.

Quoting Bohica (Reply 29):
I wonder if the Mormon Church has anything to do with it.



You better believe it. Nothing in Utah happens without the support of the Mormon Church either directly or indirectly. DL and the Mormon Church have locked horns before. Hopefully they have realized that both will help the other out if there is a healthy, mutually beneficial balance in the relationship. The Mormon Church is a heavy user of air services and would undoubtedly be willing to help support a route that improves its people’s access to the world.

No one has questioned the timing of this announcement. August is not a usual time for international air service announcements. It is late for winter season announcements but it is early for summer season. Of course, if it is subsidized and to a place that has a strong Christmas/New Years travel component (such as to Latin America), it isn’t as late as it may seem. And if the service will not support another carrier, it doesn’t matter how early it is announced for next summer as long as DL has the subsidy documents signed. It provides that much more time for marketing ahead of other usual summer service announcements.

No one has suggested that the route could be in Latin America or to the S. Pacific. I wouldn’t rule either out. It could also be an foreign ski destination.

[Edited 2006-08-11 14:44:19]
 
B4REAL
Posts: 2557
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:53 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:56 pm

Quoting B4real (Reply 12):
I actually think DL (if it had capable craft) would be better off flying to Europe from SLC. That is just my opinion, chew me up if desired...

It was late. I meant:

I actually think DL (if it had capable craft) would be better off flying to Asia from SLC. That is just my opinion, chew me up if desired...
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 3270
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 7):
Actually, SNA/ONT DL flyers will go AF LAX-CDG....

no way LAX is a zoo i would always fly out of Orange county, Burbank, Long Beach, San Diego or Ontario instead and connect. The parking is easier, less stress on everything along the way, someone can easily drop you off with a shorter drive. Thats why there are so many airports not just one.


Before any Asia or Europe flights could start i think a runway would need to longer. SLC is high alt and gets very hot in the summer. How long does it take to make a runway longer..... ie planning, construction, etc????????????


SLC has some pretty impressive O&D numbers and the mormon church has alot of people flying internationally. i think europe/asia would work very well if the runway was longer. SLC is a medium population city but all factors considered with a longer runway it would work.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2614
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 40):
That is my entire point is that in order to effectively operate this service SLC needs to increase the length of one of their runways from 12,000' to 15,000' to get a Boeing wide body off the ground fully fueled and laden in 100 degree Fahrenheit (40 C) weather. Both 763ERs and 772ERs will not be able to depart SLC on such hot days without making a fuel stop somewhere northeast of here with a longer runway. The terminal here is another matter, they call the E concourse the International terminal, yet it is one big super CRJ/EMB-120 hub of all things. Who are they trying to kid in attracting a flight to Europe from SLC?

A 763ER from SLC-CDG could easily make it off the 12,000' runway at SLC, only when it got close to 100 degrees would there be a problem, and a fuel stop wouldn't be much of an issue. Back when ATL-NRT was an MD-11, fuel stops were common when winds were strong. Denver had DEN-FRA with 744 service and DEN-LHR with 777 service before DEN got the 16,000' foot runway and aircraft did just fine, SLC isn't as high as DEN and the 767-300ER has much better runway performance than the 747-400 does.

Jeremy
 
CentPIT
Posts: 978
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:48 am

RE: DL Could Fly SLC-Europe In 2007

Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting Stl1326 (Reply 35):
Sorry I can't resist, but the St. Louis city population is 352,572 and the MSA of St. Louis is 2,786,728. Got my info from www.econdev.stlrcga.org.

Ok, sorry, Pittsburgh is larger than SLC and RDU by a bit though!

Quoting Vega (Reply 30):
I cannot believe you made that statement after your group of PIT flag wavers have been touting the fact and crying (infinitem) that Pittsburgh has the O&D passengers to support a European flight but no one will come. What - have you suddenly become a PIT basher?

I meant if DL adds PIT-Europe. We all know PIT can't support two daily European flights as of TODAY (This will be changing...) US would not add a flight if DL adds a flight because of subsidies. US would piss a lot of people off if they began a flight to compete with DL after all of the turning down they did!

Quoting A330323X (Reply 39):
They offered US a whopping $700,000 to fly transatlantic. Offering DL $6 million would just prove that PIT/ACAA expects US to play by different rules than everyone else and fly things just because PIT "deserves" it.

I don't blame ACAA for hating US. People are going to hate others, especially when they piss them off. I am not saying it is right to hate US, but it happens...why do you care anyway?




I have heard no news about this subject from any of the Pittsburgh media. Wouldn't they have reported something by now if this is true? When is DL supposed to make the announcement?
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)