leelaw
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Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:38 am

SAO PAULO (Dow Jones)--Brazil's embattled flagship airline Viacao Aerea Rio-Grandense, or Varig, will announce this month the purchase of 50 airplanes to supplement its dwindling fleet, Marco Antonio Audi, chairman of the airline's new owners, Volo do Brasil, said late Thursday.

According to the local Estado newswire, he said the company could invest up to $300 million in purchases from two different plane makers.

Audi said he is negotiating "with all plane makers," including Brazil aircraft manufacturer Empresa Brasileira de Aeronautica SA and Airbus...


http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20060810-717583.html
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ghost77
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:42 am

Embraer and Airbus only... and no Boeing... this is a very stupid management announcement. Airbus will not lower its prices. And certainly RG-Boeing strong relationship for years is now terminated!!

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vv701
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 1):
Embraer and Airbus only... and no Boeing... this is a very stupid management announcement.

No. It is not 'very stupid'. If you had read the quote you would have seen it said:

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
"with all plane makers," including

and not 'Embraer and Airbus only'.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:49 am

$300 million isn't going to get them 50 new Cessnas, to say nothing of Airbus narrowbody or widebodies.  Smile

Did the "new" Varig get any of the planes from the "old" Varig (which is now being used to dumb all the debts)? If not, perhaps this $300 million is being used to acquire some "pre-existing" Embraer and Airbus assets that might have been returned to the lessors/lein-holders?
 
ThePRGuy
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:03 am

Unless they are planning to buy a bunch of clacked out jets, $300m is way too low to buy brand new jets outright.
Unless they are speaking of financing them.
Alex
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JAM747
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:36 am

On a previous trend it was mentioned that RG had laid off the 777 crew and were considering used 747s. I do not know if this true or if there has been a change of thought. Does anyone know if this is really true?
 
mauriceb
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:44 am

I think they will go for newer jets , smaller jets, and certainly more economical jets.


I say don't be suprised when the will order a combo between Embraers ERJ series and EMB-170/175/180/185/190 and Airbus/Boeing A330/767, yes 767...
 
roseflyer
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:52 am

Quoting ThePRGuy (Reply 4):
Unless they are planning to buy a bunch of clacked out jets, $300m is way too low to buy brand new jets outright.
Unless they are speaking of financing them.
Alex

Of course $300M won't buy many planes outright, but it is a huge deposit. Planes are bought with financing and paid off through their lifetime or they are leased. Few airlines pay for planes up front since the cost of airplanes is so high. The finances of an airline are just not high enough. The planes are the biggest asset of an airline.
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American777
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:04 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Audi said he is negotiating "with all plane makers," including Airbus...



Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 1):
Embraer and Airbus only... and no Boeing...

Seems they'll probably be interested in these:


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antiuser
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:06 am

The information is they'll announce the timeline for the acquisition of 50 new aircraft in 2 weeks, not that they'll be acquiring 50 new aircraft outright. That'd just be silly given the situation the company's in.
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ETStar
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:14 am

Has Varig overcome its financial drama already, that it is talking about the acquisition of 50(!) aircraft?

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 1):


Embraer and Airbus only... and no Boeing... this is a very stupid management announcement. Airbus will not lower its prices. And certainly RG-Boeing strong relationship for years is now terminated!!

Not necessarily. What if Airbus and Embraer were to inject $ into the airline directly or otherwise? Think of US Airways which had a deal struck with Airbus. Also, what if the 5-year strong relationship with Boeing was unfavourable and contributed to the airline's financial woes? Airlines do get into certain unfavourable deals because they have no alternatives and have to meet with demand and face off competition, and when things get better, they do review and act according to their best interest.
 
andrewuber
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:36 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
$300 million isn't going to get them 50 new Cessnas, to say nothing of Airbus narrowbody or widebodies.

You're right. That's $6 million per aircraft. They may be talking about financing - but I thought Varig's credit might be a bit on the shoddy side???

Their options include: 50 new Cessna Citation Ultra's, or maybe one A380?

Drew
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LVZXV
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:46 am

So clearly RG's management is still high as a kite...  Yeah sure

Such is the credibility of said announcement that if I were RG, I would pack-up tomorrow to avoid further embarassment. RG have become the laughing stock of the aviation world, and it seems that their management is yet to realise that the jokes are on them.

Saludos,

ZXV
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LipeGIG
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:52 am

Ok guys, all the information i have right now:

1) There are 2 747 (and will be 747-400) under negotiations with a lessor. The condition is not the one Varig is looking for, but they are still trying as they are looking for this big bird!

2) A decision in favor of a new plane on RG fleet is now 75% in favor of Airbus A320/A319. The US$ 300 mm is really just the deposit and Varig is looking for long term financing and seems that Air Canada is helping them!

Felipe
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American777
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:05 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 13):
There are 2 747 (and will be 747-400)

They've been flying for a while now.


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A388
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:14 am

Those Airbus and B744 impressions really look very nice in the RG livery I must say! Wishful thinking for now unfortunately....

A388
 
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Stitch
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7):
Of course $300M won't buy many planes outright, but it is a huge deposit.

Perhaps Embraer and Airbus might be doing a B6-type deal where they back-load the fees and payments to allow a minimal down payment up front.

Quoting ETStar (Reply 10):
What if Airbus and Embraer were to inject $ into the airline directly or otherwise? Think of US Airways which had a deal struck with Airbus.

That could help, as well.

Quoting Antiuser (Reply 9):
The information is they'll announce the timeline for the acquisition of 50 new aircraft in 2 weeks, not that they'll be acquiring 50 new aircraft outright.

That makes more sense.  Smile
 
baron95
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:07 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
purchase of 50 airplanes



Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
could invest up to $300 million in purchases from two different plane makers

Hummmm that averages $6M/plane. Assuming that represents a typical 10% deposit, we are talking about planes averaging US$60M - certainly E195/A319/73G territory.

However, delivery slots for ANY of those planes are not availbale till 2009 at the earliest.

I'm sure Varig will be dead (again) by then.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
antiuser
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:30 pm

Quoting American777 (Reply 14):
They've been flying for a while now.

You don't need to go to the modified airliners database to see a RG 744, as they operated the type until the late 90s.


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MD11junkie
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:44 pm

Quoting American777 (Reply 14):
They've been flying for a while now.

No need to imagine that one, RG has already operated the type:


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Quoting LVZXV (Reply 12):
Such is the credibility of said announcement that if I were RG, I would pack-up tomorrow to avoid further embarassment. RG have become the laughing stock of the aviation world, and it seems that their management is yet to realise that the jokes are on them.

I would cut the slack on them, ZXV.  Wink Remember, this is not the Fundación Ruben Berta smashing RG to the ground and still making delirious promises. Sounds logical that they announce the timeline for a 50 airplane acquisition so that they expand their service to more profitable routes, in the future, of course.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 17):
I'm sure Varig will be dead (again) by then.

Just like UA and US should be.  Yeah sure If RG kept afloat going that deep, don't underestimate her. You won't be seeing RG dead anytime soon.

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 1):
Embraer and Airbus only... and no Boeing... this is a very stupid management announcement. Airbus will not lower its prices. And certainly RG-Boeing strong relationship for years is now terminated!!

Strong relationship?  Confused I thought that only started when Boeing bought out McDonnell Douglas. And if you read correctly, they said they are considering all plane manufactures - Airbus and Embraer INCLUDED.

Indeed good news. RG shaking up the remnants of a horrible administration and narrowing everything down to profitability has been the way to go.

Let's hope the 'Volo' group, owner of both Varig and VarigLog can get RG back where she belongs and where she used to be, along with AR - a premium airline, the pride of Latin America.

Cheers! wave 
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American777
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:15 pm

Quoting Antiuser (Reply 18):
You don't need to go to the modified airliners database to see a RG 744, as they operated the type until the late 90s.



Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 19):
No need to imagine that one, RG has already operated the type:

I already knew RG operated the type before! The only reason I posted that modification was because since RG wants 744's again that is a preview of how they'll look like in the CURRENT LIVERY!

JOE.  Wink
 
antiuser
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:50 pm

Quoting American777 (Reply 20):
I already knew RG operated the type before! The only reason I posted that modification was because since RG wants 744's again that is a preview of how they'll look like in the CURRENT LIVERY!

Gotcha. Won't look too different from the 747-300s they had  Smile
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:04 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 19):
No need to imagine that one, RG has already operated the type:

MD11junkie Why not check my profile for a picture of a real airplane landing at Kai Tak, you'll like the model  Smile

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express1
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:54 pm

Last time i heard,Varig was heading to the scrap heap!!!, as the carrier ran out of cash and no one wanted to buy them out?  confused 

dave
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antiuser
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:08 pm

Quoting Express1 (Reply 23):
Last time i heard,Varig was heading to the scrap heap!!!, as the carrier ran out of cash and no one wanted to buy them out?

They were bought out by VarigLog.
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UAL777UK
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:23 pm

All I can say is good luck to them, to say they have had troubles would be a gross misunderstatement......I am just glad the VARIG name lives on.
 
b777a340fan
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:42 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7):
Of course $300M won't buy many planes outright, but it is a huge deposit. Planes are bought with financing and paid off through their lifetime or they are leased. Few airlines pay for planes up front since the cost of airplanes is so high. The finances of an airline are just not high enough. The planes are the biggest asset of an airline.

 yes  I think you're right...call it an initial deposit. Isn't $300M like the published price of a 777?

I think RG's best best will be to lease w/ option to buy. Don't want to get into more financial responsiblity.
 
SBRFtoEHAM
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:21 pm

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 26):
I think RG's best best will be to lease w/ option to buy. Don't want to get into more financial responsiblity

I remember reading right after the auction that finally sold Varig, that they would no more seek "leasing comercial" (rental-type) but "leasing financeiro" (leasing with option to buy at the end).

Cheers
REC,AMS and a few others...
 
mauriceb
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:28 pm

To be honest, isn't the 747-400 to big right now? i remember that had problems filling the 400's when they still had them late 90's


Anyway i think those 747-400 look great in the current RG livery.

But if they are really talking with AC, i think we might see A330's and A340's since they will be replaced in favour of 777s and 787s. So is there any possibility that they will also take the A340-500's? wich will be replaced by 777-200LR's.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:12 pm

Quoting ThePRGuy (Reply 4):
Unless they are planning to buy a bunch of clacked out jets, $300m is way too low to buy brand new jets outright.
Unless they are speaking of financing them.
Alex

A $300,000,000 down payment?
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irobertson
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting American777 (Reply 8):

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Quoting MauriceB (Reply 28):
To be honest, isn't the 747-400 to big right now? i remember that had problems filling the 400's when they still had them late 90's

Love that pic of the A340-600, but it might be smarter to finally give the damn -500 a chance! Not such huge capacity but great range and fuel efficiency...

[Edited 2006-08-11 16:06:17]
 
RAPCON
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
$300 million isn't going to get them 50 new Cessnas, to say nothing of Airbus narrowbody or widebodies

Dude, for $300 big ones, you can get some junkie Ilyushins!!! Big grin
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MalpensaSFO
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:18 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 13):
1) There are 2 747 (and will be 747-400) under negotiations with a lessor. The condition is not the one Varig is looking for, but they are still trying as they are looking for this big bird!

2 747-400?

Miami, New York, or Frankfurt?

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 1):
Embraer and Airbus only... and no Boeing... this is a very stupid management announcement. Airbus will not lower its prices. And certainly RG-Boeing strong relationship for years is now terminated!!

The MD-11's were not money makers to say the least. The MD-11 was flying short/medium haul routes such as GRU-FLN, GRU-SSA, GRU-REC, REC-FOR-GRU, GRU-LIM, GRU-MEX..The 777, was costing a fortune to operate and in addition was being used on short/medium routes such as GRU-POA, GRU-GIG, GIG-BSB, GRU-EZE, GRU-SCL, GRU-BOG, GRU-MEX and none of those routes were exactly cost effective for the cost of the aircraft.

Quoting ThePRGuy (Reply 4):
Unless they are planning to buy a bunch of clacked out jets, $300m is way too low to buy brand new jets outright.
Unless they are speaking of financing them.

Well Northwest Airlines(bankrupt), Primaris Airlines(now defunct), First Choice, Blue Panorama, and others had no problem putting down low cost deposits for the upcoming 787 aircraft.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 6):
I think they will go for newer jets , smaller jets, and certainly more economical jets.

ERJ145/170/190, 319/320, 333/343. There at current is not a need for 345/346 range aircraft. In addition VARIG is now focused on the international moneymakers and in addition rebuiliding domestic service.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7):
Of course $300M won't buy many planes outright, but it is a huge deposit.

Yes, ask Northwest Airlines and the many others that have put down not to much for the new 787 equipment. In addition Airbus is known for incentives.

Quoting Andrewuber (Reply 11):
You're right. That's $6 million per aircraft. They may be talking about financing - but I thought Varig's credit might be a bit on the shoddy side???

Considering some of their backers seem to have bottomless pockets, I dont think there is going to be that much of a problem.
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flydreamliner
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 31):
Dude, for $300 big ones, you can get some junkie Ilyushins!!! Big grin

but can you get any spare parts or russian mechanics?

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 32):
Yes, ask Northwest Airlines and the many others that have put down not to much for the new 787 equipment. In addition Airbus is known for incentives.

Northwest wasn't in bankruptcy when they bought the 787s. Do you know how much they put down?

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 32):

Considering some of their backers seem to have bottomless pockets, I dont think there is going to be that much of a problem.

Which "backers" have bottomless pockets? No one just "throws money" at an airline, and certainly Varig.

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 32):
ERJ145/170/190, 319/320, 333/343. There at current is not a need for 345/346 range aircraft. In addition VARIG is now focused on the international moneymakers and in addition rebuiliding domestic service.

So they'll have international and domestic routes? That's a change how? And buying the A340? Yes, a wise financial decision with $75/barrel oil is to let go of 772ER's and buy A343's. Righto.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
slz396
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:52 am

What RG needs are slightly smaller, more fuel efficient planes than they do operate now, to reduce their seat mile costs drastically.

From this perspective, I'd put my money on: Embraer 190 and Airbus A330.
 
miamix707
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:11 am

wow that A320 does not look good at all Varig scheme, the A319 probably worse. I hope they get rid of that ugly scheme when they get back on their feet. Horrible livery for bad times, lets adopt nicer colors.


The classic livery was simply elegant when they had the 747s, should have never changed it, just updated it. VARIG you need a new livery! ..or adopt this smart one fleetwide!


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JAL
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:33 am

Where the heck will they get the money?
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jrosa
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting JAL (Reply 36):
Where the heck will they get the money?

May be Matlin-Patterson Fund.
 
ram025
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:12 am

Wouldnt buying airbus planes cost them more money to train and get parts for maintaining the aircraft, they should have just bought some Boeing NG planes or the E170or190 and just kept it at that.
 
miamix707
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:37 am

Why does Varig need a new expensive fleet, especially introducing a whole new plane type A320 and A330s to be profitable?

I don't see anything wrong with the couple of MD11s and 777s and 737s that are perfect for short haul. 777s too expensive? just keep one or two MD11s and shorten your intl. network.

If it was old pax DC-10s and 727-100s then maybe.

Is Varig still using the Euro Atlantic 767?
 
DC10Forever
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting SBRFtoEHAM (Reply 27):
I remember reading right after the auction that finally sold Varig, that they would no more seek "leasing comercial" (rental-type) but "leasing financeiro" (leasing with option to buy at the end).

Just a correction: "leasing operacional" (and not "comercial") is the simple rent.
Better one flying than two grounded
 
irobertson
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 33):
Quoting RAPCON (Reply 31):
Dude, for $300 big ones, you can get some junkie Ilyushins!!! Big grin

but can you get any spare parts or russian mechanics?

If only Ilyushin would release that darn Il-96-400 with P&W engines (and get a decent production line going), there'd be some cheaper (and highly durable) medium-long range widebodies available to airlines without the cash for expensive Boeings and Airbuses or older planes that are fit for retirement in a year or so.

Same goes for the Tu-204s with western engines. Come on Russia! Get with the program!  Wink
 
baron95
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:36 am

Why the heck would Varig BUY any planes? Why not just lease and take advantage of the newly approved government income tax exemption on aircraft lease?

They need to lease 737NGs (whatever they can get) and 772/772ER or 763ER if they can't get the 777. Standardize on two plane types where they already have trained crews. Fire the crews for all the other plane types on the spot and be done with it.

Question is, who would lease to them after all the pain they caused to the lessors.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
SBRFtoEHAM
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting Dc10forever (Reply 40):
Just a correction: "leasing operacional" (and not "comercial") is the simple rent

I stand corrected, Dc10forever. I simply used the words I've read on a Reuters web page.
REC,AMS and a few others...
 
antiuser
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 42):
Standardize on two plane types where they already have trained crews.

777 crews were let go a few days ago.
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YULWinterSkies
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 42):
Fire the crews for all the other plane types on the spot and be done with it.

Man, you've got extremist views!
IIRC the MD-11 crews are the reason why Varig is having problems. That's what they deserve....
Geez....  banghead 
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F14ATomcat
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:16 am

They planes they will be getting with their great credit are to be found in partially dismantled boneyard. We will see. But then again there is a least one foolish manufacturer who will sell to anybody, regardless of their financial credibility.
 
SBRFtoEHAM
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RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:05 am

A little off-topic, but I just read on

http://www.estadao.com.br/ultimas/ec...nomia/noticias/2006/ago/11/327.htm
(sorry, portuguese only)

that the Civil Aviation Agency has approved RG's new route scheme. The daily number of flights has been reduced (compared to may 11) from 272 to 124. 53 daily landing slots at CGH have been released.

Finally, the article states that RG will be back to GIG when "bigger aircraft" arrive.
REC,AMS and a few others...
 
FMAL
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:16 am

RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:10 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 19):
Indeed good news. RG shaking up the remnants of a horrible administration and narrowing everything down to profitability has been the way to go.

I agree 100%

Guys, I won't read through 50 posts, but I just flew Varig this past Wednesday and Yesterday. I'll post a Trip Report (my first!) on it tomorrow. But I'll give you a little preview.

It was great. Just the Shuttle, SDU-CGH-SDU. Departed on time, kind, cordial and attentive personnel, from the check-in counter to the flight attendants. I scored the jump seat. There were 43 people on board (normal, given the time - 4:20 PM). On the way back, again cordial and attentive personnel. Nice flight attendants. The flight was delayed for 20 minutes because of low tire pressure (the captain told us so). But once solved, off we were. The best thing on this flight? It was full (ok, maybe 5 empty seats).

Varig has trimmed down considerably its route network. But the few flights they say they'll fly, THEY ARE FLYING IT! No more cancellations, no more false flights. You can't buy a GIG-POA because they don't fly it anymore. But you can easily buy a GRU-POA because they say they'll fly it, and they DO.

Slowly, Varig will regain the confidence of the passengers. It has gotten mine back. They have a great chance to capitalize on the mistakes that TAM and Gol are making (misplaced reservations, huge lines, flight delays, etc), and the high prices they are charging now, and I believe they will.

You can feel this is a new Varig indeed. New mentality. New awareness of the scenario of the business, ready to compete and to be efficient in the new aviation reality. Only time will tell if they'll succeed.
 
mauriceb
Posts: 2150
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:50 am

RE: Varig To Buy 50 Planes In August

Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:11 am

I smell to much American patriots in here.

Why so negativ about Airbus while Airbus got more materials produced in the USA than Boeing does..

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