LAXDESI
Topic Author
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:23 am

No direct flights from Pakistan to USA. Link:
http://www.samachar.com/showurl.htm?...e=No~direct~flights~from~Pak~to~US

Quotes:
The United States has now said that it will not allow direct flights to operate between Pakistan and any American destination. This move has been taken keeping in mind the recent terror threats.

The US is also concerned about security at Pakistani airports and has promised to help Pakistan enhance security at all its airports and provided some equipment in this regard.

Pakistan International Airways has three flights to New York, Houston and Chicago but they are not direct. They all make stopovers, mostly in European or gulf destinations.

The move, aviation experts say, is suggestive of the US not trusting Pakistani security clearances of hand baggage. If there are stopovers and aircraft changes, hand baggage would be cleared again. (With PTI inputs)
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:25 am

Rather old news. The US DOT had previosuly rejected PIA attempt to operate nonstop to the US from Pakistan.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
misbeehavin
Posts: 607
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:49 am

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
Pakistan International Airways has three flights to New York, Houston and Chicago but they are not direct. They all make stopovers, mostly in European or gulf destinations

Even if a flight stops en route, it's still a direct flight, as long as it doesn't involve a connection.

So, if these flights go Pakistan - Wherever - New York, they're direct flights, because the flight number / aircraft don't change.
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:38 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
Pakistan International Airways has three flights to New York, Houston and Chicago but they are not direct. They all make stopovers, mostly in European or gulf destinations

JFK was nonstop to ISB, KHI, and LAH back in April with the 777. Then suddenly the U.S. government realized it was not such a good thing. This was an excellent call on the part of the U.S. government. Now since what happened this past week, it is not a suprize to see these flights from Pakistan under higher scrutiny.
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
Avatordon
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:33 pm

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:54 am

Didn't PIA used to serve IAD as well?
 
Rj111
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:02 am

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:12 am

IIRC, the US twisted Pakistan's arm pretty hard when choosing the 772LR. Ironic and unfortunate that they will not be used to their full potential.

What could a terrorist do on a flight ISB-US that he couldn't do via MAN? Do passengers have to deboard the plane at MAN?
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24594
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 5):

What could a terrorist do on a flight ISB-US that he couldn't do via MAN? Do
passengers have to deboard the plane at MAN?

Yes, they do. And I believe their luggage is re-checked.
a.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:20 am

And yet we have non-stops from Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

What gives?

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 3):
Then suddenly the U.S. government realized it was not such a good thing. This was an excellent call on the part of the U.S. government.

Why? The fact that a majority of the recent liquid bomb suspects were of Pakistani ancestry has no bearing whatsoever on permitting non-stops to the US from Pakistan. This is a typical knee-jerk response done only to ensure that some flapping jaw in the clueless press or some yappy politician doesn't use it as some scare tactic. Realistically, it achieves nothing.

The only way a PIA flight from Pakistan to the US could pose a threat is if a potential terrorist decided to use the 777 as another 9-11 style missile. Well, that wouldn't be likely for a number of reasons. First, any hint that such an aircraft would pose to be a threat would be taken very seriously by US authorities, i.e., its almost certain that the aircraft would be destroyed by the US AirForce before it even approached US airspace. Second, a 777 flying non-stop from Karachi to, say, JFK would be nearly flying on fumes by the time it approached JFK, quite unlike the 9-11 aircraft which were laden with fuel.

Of course, its quite possible that the aircraft would be laden with a bomb, set off to explode over the Atlantic. Now given that most (if not all) passengers flying from Pakistan to the US are either Pakistani nationals or Americans of Pakistani extraction, what would any terrorist (unless he's a complete and total moron) hope to achieve by blowing up an aircraft with this brand of human cargo?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
misbeehavin
Posts: 607
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:49 am

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 7):
This is a typical knee-jerk response done only to ensure that some flapping jaw in the clueless press or some yappy politician doesn't use it as some scare tactic. Realistically, it achieves nothing.

Agreed. More than knee-jerk, it smacks of "look at us, we're actually doing something to keep the terrorists out". Like lots of other "initiatives".
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:47 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 7):
The fact that a majority of the recent liquid bomb suspects were of Pakistani ancestry has no bearing whatsoever on permitting non-stops to the US from Pakistan

It has plenty of bearing. Americans are being checked and re-checked for the insane ideas of a group of people who are bent on ruining the UK and US. People like to coward behind the religion or what not. The fact is that the people involved in the following events were not exactly European or Americans:

Air France 8969 Hijacking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969

Air India Bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Bombing

Bojinka Plot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojinka

EgyptAir Hijacking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_648

EgyptAir Flight 990
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990

Entebbe Hijacking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe

London July 7 Bombings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings

Madrid Bombings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid_bombing

Munich Olympics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre

Pan Am Flight 73 Hijacking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_73

Pan Am Flight 103 Bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_103

Pan Am Flight 110 Hijacking/Bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_110

Rome Airport Attacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_and_Vienna_Airport_attacks

September 11th Terrorist Attacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11%2C_2001_attacks

Singapore Airlines Hijacking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Airlines_Flight_117

TWA Flight 847 Hijacking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_847

TWA Flight 841 Bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_841

TWA Flight 840 Hijacking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_840

Vienna Airport Attacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_and_Vienna_Airport_attacks

World Trade Center Bombing 1993
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_World_Trade_Center_bombing

Sad but true the people that brought about the above events have a number of things in common. To sit back and say that the Western World should be held hostage and look at each other is useless. The people that are suspected in the latest Heathrow threat, Bojinka threat, 9-11, 7-7, and scores of others have one to many things in common. Flights from Pakistan to the United States should not be allowed as nonstop. If Canada wants to take the risk, let them. We learned a lesson on 9-11, and are not willing to go out on a limb and wait for it to happen again!
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
bohica
Posts: 2308
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:21 pm

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:20 pm

Quoting Avatordon (Reply 4):
Didn't PIA used to serve IAD as well?

They used to fly to IAD until about 2001.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:33 pm

No direct Pakistan-USA has been happening for a while..it has to do with the CAA/FAA and the fact certain government people from Paksitan who do not have to go through security check in Pakistan......

nonstop Pakistan-Canada flights still are allowed...

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 9):
It has plenty of bearing. Americans are being checked and re-checked for the insane ideas of a group of people who are bent on ruining the UK and US. People like to coward behind the religion or what not. The fact is that the people involved in the following events were not exactly European or Americans:

Your links are valid, but security in Pakistan airports is very tough...though I don't think there aren't bomb-screening devices such as we have here in the United States (there might be, I really don't know)....getting through airport security is tough for pax....

there are two screenings, as well as "pat-downs", on top of that, there are military people everywhere...

it would have to be an "inside" job...and as Jaysit properly mentioned, PK has 95% Pakistani's flying with them......
"Up the Irons!"
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
No direct flights from Pakistan to USA

Do you mean non-stop? Or do you mean direct? There's a difference. I don't recall there ever being Pakistan-USA non-stops.

Mark

[Edited 2006-08-13 06:38:14]
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
ordryan28
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:24 am

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:36 pm

hmm... I guess this is a good move by the US government.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
Quoting RJ111 (Reply 5):

What could a terrorist do on a flight ISB-US that he couldn't do via MAN? Do
passengers have to deboard the plane at MAN?

Yes, they do. And I believe their luggage is re-checked.

considering that, it seems like a great move by our government. there were rumors swirling around about a nonstop Pakistan-US flight but I knew those would never go through. after the recent events regarding terrorism, it doesn't look like it will ever happen.

-Ryan
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
beefstew25
Posts: 581
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:40 am

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:07 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 9):
It has plenty of bearing. Americans are being checked and re-checked for the insane ideas of a group of people who are bent on ruining the UK and US. People like to coward behind the religion or what not. The fact is that the people involved in the following events were not exactly European or Americans:

Air France 8969 Hijacking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969

Air India Bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Bombing

Bojinka Plot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojinka

EgyptAir Hijacking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_648

EgyptAir Flight 990
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990

Entebbe Hijacking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe

London July 7 Bombings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings

Madrid Bombings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid_bombing

Munich Olympics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre

Pan Am Flight 73 Hijacking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_73

Pan Am Flight 103 Bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_103

Pan Am Flight 110 Hijacking/Bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_110

Rome Airport Attacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_and_Vienna_Airport_attacks

September 11th Terrorist Attacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11%2C_2001_attacks

Singapore Airlines Hijacking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Airlines_Flight_117

TWA Flight 847 Hijacking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_847

TWA Flight 841 Bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_841

TWA Flight 840 Hijacking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_840

Vienna Airport Attacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_and_Vienna_Airport_attacks

World Trade Center Bombing 1993
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_World_Trade_Center_bombing

Sad but true the people that brought about the above events have a number of things in common. To sit back and say that the Western World should be held hostage and look at each other is useless. The people that are suspected in the latest Heathrow threat, Bojinka threat, 9-11, 7-7, and scores of others have one to many things in common. Flights from Pakistan to the United States should not be allowed as nonstop. If Canada wants to take the risk, let them. We learned a lesson on 9-11, and are not willing to go out on a limb and wait for it to happen again!

I will say it....they were Muslim extremists....lets just start profiling....
MLB: Where you are always number one for takeoff.....
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12422
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:44 pm

The USA has a stressful relationship with Pakistan, including going after al-Quada as well as trade issues. There are enough people in Pakistan whom have expressed views against the USA and are supported by a segment of people there so that the USA and it's politicans don't have much of an alternative.
 
ordryan28
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:24 am

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:16 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 15):
The USA has a stressful relationship with Pakistan

that is true, and after the recent events in the UK, I'm sure our relationship (both aviation related and non-aviation related) will worsen.

-Ryan
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
jumbo747
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:39 pm

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:20 pm

I am glad PIA doesn't fly direct. Not gonna happen in a hurry either.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting Jumbo747 (Reply 17):
I am glad PIA doesn't fly direct. Not gonna happen in a hurry either.

What sort of problem do you have with it? Last time I recalled, it was United States-based air carriers in 9/11 and United States-based carriers targetted in the UK last week....

and as Jaysit perfectly stated......

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 7):

The only way a PIA flight from Pakistan to the US could pose a threat is if a potential terrorist decided to use the 777 as another 9-11 style missile. Well, that wouldn't be likely for a number of reasons. First, any hint that such an aircraft would pose to be a threat would be taken very seriously by US authorities, i.e., its almost certain that the aircraft would be destroyed by the US AirForce before it even approached US airspace. Second, a 777 flying non-stop from Karachi to, say, JFK would be nearly flying on fumes by the time it approached JFK, quite unlike the 9-11 aircraft which were laden with fuel.

 checkmark .....the Twin Towers crashed not because of the fact planes had struck the buildings (they were designed even to widthstand a B707 flying into it), it was because of all of the fuel which caused the metal of the buildings frame to melt, which caused irreversible structural damage...
"Up the Irons!"
 
azza40
Posts: 1032
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:18 am

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:16 pm

So much for the 777LR's...

Aaron  swirl 
Not been on here for a good 2/3 years!
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Azza40 (Reply 19):
So much for the 777LR's...

the -200LR's are still being put to use in the Pakistan-YYZ routes....
"Up the Irons!"
 
bnamaxx
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:34 pm

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 8):
This is a typical knee-jerk response done only to ensure that some flapping jaw in the clueless press or some yappy politician doesn't use it as some scare tactic. Realistically, it achieves nothing.

Why didn't the U.S. ban flights by Saudi Arabian after 9/11 once it was known most of those hijackers were of Saudi heritage? Would this ban have happened in a non-election year? Time to start scaring the electorate again to save those votes in November.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 9):
It has plenty of bearing. Americans are being checked and re-checked for the insane ideas of a group of people who are bent on ruining the UK and US. People like to coward behind the religion or what not. The fact is that the people involved in the following events were not exactly European or Americans:

But what does that have to do with banning nonstop PIA 777s to the US from Pakistan?

Or do you just like hearing the sound of the clicks of your keyboard?

PIA nonstops or not, checks and re-checks are a fact of life now. If anything, PIA and Saudia flights are probably the safest way to travel now, giving ElAl a run for their money.

Reiterating what I said earlier, assuming a PIA 777 were hijacked, the US would probably destroy it prior to it entering US airspace; if it was intended to be used as a 9-11 style missile, it wouldn't do much good since it would have depleted its fuel reserves; and blowing one up by a "liquid" bomb wouldn't do much either since I doubt if the average American (red stater or otherwise) gives a damn about innocent Pakistani civilians being blown to bits over the Atlantic. If anything, it would enrage Pakistanis back in Pakistan.

If the US and the UK wanted to ban all PIA flights from flying into the US or the UK, it would - perhaps - make a tad more sense than banning nonstops from Pakistan. But politically that wouldn't make any sense. Pakistan would be enraged. And any cooperation the US gets from the Pakistani military would vanish.

So, the US authorities engage in this stupid measure which will make no one safer, but by enforcing this punitive measure against PIA will deflect any criticism by our idiotic unthinking press and equally dimwitted politicians.

Its just politics being played out in a petty and completely ineffective manner.

[Edited 2006-08-13 18:36:00]
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
MERLIN
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:16 am

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting Ordryan28 (Reply 16):
that is true, and after the recent events in the UK, I'm sure our relationship (both aviation related and non-aviation related) will worsen.

I dun really think so.

Quoting Beefstew25 (Reply 14):
will say it....they were Muslim extremists....lets just start profiling

True

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 15):
The USA has a stressful relationship with Pakistan, including going after al-Quada as well as trade issues. There are enough people in Pakistan whom have expressed views against the USA

Correct.

Lets say this we all know that with increasing tensions in middle -east and so the rest of the world involving muslim nations situations have been worsening with the US in particular as it supports the elimination of the Muslim extremists which co-incidently are said to be "Jihadis" which in the World of muslims carries a loud and clear meaning.

Waging a war or calling a Powerful muslim nation as axis of evil (IRAN) has already created a lot of unwanted situations for the US.The next most important part is, like mentioned above, US is having a stressful relationship with Pakistan in terms of maintaining a balance between its People and its Government,Knowing the circumstances as what could happen if US does initiate a move to Destroy its Militants.

As we know Majority of terror camps running across the LOC are located within Pakistan (no offence).Despite knowing it US doesnt involve itself directly into the issue but does interfere only if its land is in Danger,so as to prevent any other 9/11 or 7/7 weather its by not allowing Direct flights or by someother means.

Quoting Bnamaxx (Reply 21):
Why didn't the U.S. ban flights by Saudi Arabian after 9/11 once it was known most of those hijackers were of Saudi heritage?

trained by the Al-Qaida ( having a lot of people from around the world). Mainly if we see its mere politics
"Aviation & Black hole carry same effect,once any where near it you're bound to get sucked in".
 
777way
Posts: 6470
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:09 am

Air India bombing was by Sikhs not Muslims, I forsee PIA disposing of their 777LR in a trade off for other 777 versions with another airline eventually, Vietnam Airlines could do with them for their proposed US service.
 
Historic747
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:55 am

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:11 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 9):
Sad but true the people that brought about the above events have a number of things in common.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 9):
If Canada wants to take the risk, let them.

Canada is always slow as usual. They will learn the right thing sooner or later. UK and much of W Europe was lieneant toward some religions (you know which one I am talking about). Today they are paying the price for it and are realizing their mistake the hard way.
 
ordryan28
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:24 am

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting Historic747 (Reply 28):
Historic747

you just made a fantastic post, I couldn't agree more with everything you said. but anyway, lets get real. the more and more I think about it, a Pakistan-US direct flight isn't that drastic. drastic would be if all PIA flights were banned to the US. I think our government (and UK officials) is doing the right thing by implementing this strategy (stop in MAN, re-check luggage). we're still seeing PIA service, just with the ruling of the nonstop service out of our wildest dreams. this is only being done to protect us from the chance of a terrorist attack. we can't say all PIA flights are banned from entering the US because Pakistanis have to travel. same routes as before, with tightened security. cant take any risks...


[quote=777way,reply=25]I forsee PIA disposing of their 777LR in a trade off for other 777 versions with another airline eventually, Vietnam Airlines could do with them for their proposed US service.

I don't think so because of the sole reason PIA is still doing KHI-YYZ nonstop. i guess they could trade off one LR, but why? i dont see their LR's going anywhere.

-Ryan
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
airxliban
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 12:14 pm

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:09 am

I'm not sure how realistic the perceived threat of PIA flights to the US really is. If the US wants to exert that level of scrutiny on air travel between the US and Pakistan it should be consistent across other aspects of security as well.

Quoting Historic747 (Reply 24):
It does. Pakistan is known for terrorism. Pakistan widely supports terrorism. Pakistan has no credibility. Who in the right mind would trust Pakistani airport security? Who in the right mind would believe that the Pakistani security force are not fundamentalists and not allow a bunch of insane terrorists laden with chemical/biological weapon on board the plane.

I think that's a bit unfair. Pakistan itself does not support terrorism, it just so happens that perhaps a disproportionate number of terrorists that appear on the world stage are Pakistani. That's not due to a proactive encouragement of terrorism by the government, but rather a host of factors which perhaps the government wasn't proactive enough in preventing. As for the airport security - having never been to Pakistan I can't speak from experience but my impression was that the security procedures themselves were not the problem, but rather that some high profile Pakistani travelers considered themselves to be above security Big grin

Quoting Historic747 (Reply 24):
It is not like Pakistan is an important trading partner and that busineses would be crippled if there were no direct flights. So it is prudent to be safe.

Pakistan is an important partner in the "war on terror" and Pakistan is more the solution than the problem.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1437
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 27):
Mate I would ask you to some research before spewing out your facts all over the place. Pakistan has been a major support to the US in the fight against terrorism, if it were not for Pak you would not have caught half of the AL Qaeda followers in custody now.

BTW, why are all the al-quaida top leaders holed up in Pakistan, and that too in cities like Karachi and Lahore? A top al-quiada leader was caught living very close to the Pakistani cantonments. Is it because they were always supported by Pakistan all along?

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
PIA nonstops or not, checks and re-checks are a fact of life now. If anything, PIA and Saudia flights are probably the safest way to travel now, giving ElAl a run for their money.

That is placing too much of a confidence in Pakistan's security. Many of PIA's employees are ex-Pak armed forces personnel. And many of them have had close contacts with the al-quaida/taliban folks as they were trained by Pakistani army. The chances of a sympathizer are much much higher in Pakistan compared to other countries.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
And any cooperation the US gets from the Pakistani military would vanish.

And that is assuming that the cooperation is very good, which however isn't the case. US/UK have to beg/bribe/threaten pakistan for whatever cooperation they are getting.

Quoting Historic747 (Reply 26):
Canada is always slow as usual. They will learn the right thing sooner or later. UK and much of W Europe was lieneant toward some religions (you know which one I am talking about). Today they are paying the price for it and are realizing their mistake the hard way.

 checkmark 
 
Historic747
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:55 am

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 30):
I think that's a bit unfair. Pakistan itself does not support terrorism, it just so happens that perhaps a disproportionate number of terrorists that appear on the world stage are Pakistani. That's not due to a proactive encouragement of terrorism by the government, but rather a host of factors which perhaps the government wasn't proactive enough in preventing.

It leads me to ask why is it that a disproportionate number of terrorists that appear on world stage are Pakistani? The governement is not strong enough to stop terrorist activities and that is precisely what the governement here fears.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting Historic747 (Reply 28):
I have quote what if they used a chemical weapon. A chemical weapon can be triggered once the plane lands so as to cause an impact large enough to surround the airport. And now you can do the math.

But then a one stop PIA flight would be just as much of a problem as a nonstop one. Why a ban on nonstops then?

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 31):
That is placing too much of a confidence in Pakistan's security. Many of PIA's employees are ex-Pak armed forces personnel. And many of them have had close contacts with the al-quaida/taliban folks as they were trained by Pakistani army. The chances of a sympathizer are much much higher in Pakistan compared to other countries.

A good point, but then why hasn't it happened since 1995?
Yes, the ISI in Pakistan was (is??) packed with symapthizers of Islamic hard right organizations, but Musharaff knows which side his bread is buttered now, and he and his security apparatus in concert with the CIA and FBI will ensure that no flight that leaves Pakistan is a threat. Look, if the ISI wanted to, they'd attack India using a PIA jetliner before they'd hit the US. Even post 9-11, these people have a stronger dislike for India than they do the US.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 33):
But then a one stop PIA flight would be just as much of a problem as a nonstop one.

The flights are re-checked again at Manchester, thankfully.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 33):
Why a ban on nonstops then?

The people of the United States do not want to take the security risk!
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
MERLIN
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RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 27):
Mate I would ask you to some research before spewing out your facts all over the place. Pakistan has been a major support to the US in the fight against terrorism, if it were not for Pak you would not have caught half of the AL Qaeda followers in custody now.

i wud suggest the same to you. Its a hard proven fact of pakistans hand in global terrorism and to the point on helping is concerned after a lot of evidences of terrors in pakistan its become hard for them to hide the truth after which being pressurised by the US and the allies has taken action in its territory to show the world that it doesnt support terrorism..its just not u or me who says it but the entire world knows about it and if u still asking to prove the post by evidences then thats not right.
"Aviation & Black hole carry same effect,once any where near it you're bound to get sucked in".
 
Historic747
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RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 33):
But then a one stop PIA flight would be just as much of a problem as a nonstop one. Why a ban on nonstops then?

On one stop flights you are re-checked in Europe or some other nation whose security you may rely on. On non-stop flights you are not. You are just checked in Pakistan whose airport security might consist of a bunch of fundamentalists. Simple...

[Edited 2006-08-13 20:48:51]
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 27):
Pakistan has been a major support to the US in the fight against terrorism,

That has nothing to do with it. One thing comes up time and time again...

PAKISTAN... TERRORISM... PAKISTAN... TERRORISM... PAKISTAN... TERRORISM

CARTOONS... RIOTS... CARTOONS... RIOTS... CARTOONS... RIOTS

There is a trend in the above, and for many, keeping birthplaces of terrorism far away is an excellent way to curb a possible re-run of 9-11.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 27):
Even the current crisis was averted because Pakistani authorities urgently urged the British authorities to take action,

The Pakistani hands will be out for money... rest assured!
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
blrsea
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RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 30):
I think that's a bit unfair. Pakistan itself does not support terrorism, it just so happens that perhaps a disproportionate number of terrorists that appear on the world stage are Pakistani. That's not due to a proactive encouragement of terrorism by the government, but rather a host of factors which perhaps the government wasn't proactive enough in preventing.

Nope, you are wrong. You need to study Pakistan's history to understand its support for these militant groups. Pakistani dictator Zia-ul-Haq promoted a policy of stringent radicalization of the country to curry favours with the conservatives. He was helped in this by S Arabian govt. In fact, I recently deleted a link where in S Arabia sent its islamic scholars to Pakistan to properly implement shariah in that country. The government of the day actively promoted the madrasas which was supported by S Arabian money too to promote the wahabbi form of islam which is a very conservative view of Islam.

On top of it, Pakistan always regarded Afghanistan as part its strategic width should a war with India arise. With the soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Pakistan received huge amounts of arms and money from US/NATO to fund the militia fighting the Soviets. The pakistani army and intelligence services acted as intermediaries between the scores of milita and US. Many of these militia were schooled in the madrasas, which wasn't exactly what the US wanted. These madrasas turned out scores of indoctirnated islamic fighters fighting the athiests. However, the US govt as it typically does, turned a blind eye to this issue as its main goal was to get the russians out of Afghanistan. The nuclear and missile proliferation to Pakistan from China were brushed under the carpet for short term contingencies.

After the Soviets withdrew, these islamic fighters truly believed ( and to this day) that they alone defeated a superpower due to their faith in Allah (support of US money/arms were forgotten). And these folks then turned their attention to other countries, namely US, as they had already defeated one great satan. At this time, the US slowly stopped its funding of these militas as Soviets had withdrawn and their purpose was served. However, Pakistan wanted a government in Afghanistan that was closely allied with itself. But the band of militia groups trying to form the govt in Afghanistan were all split among different warlords, and weren't so keen on Pakistan. So, they raised an army of milita again, called the taliban, which means students, in the madrasas, and provided them with arms and money. These taliban, who were even more radical than the earlier militants, easily defeated the other milita( who now had no one to support them). The taliban formed the government in Afghanistan and were immediately recognized by Pakistan. Saudi arabia too recognized the taliban as they were part of their bigger game plan. Pakistan later urged UAE to recognize them too. These were the only three countries to recognize the taliban. And bin-laden who found the taliban to share his equally retarted views, found sanctuary under Taliban's rule. Pakistan's army still had military observers and advisors posted to help the Taliban government.

Gen Musharaff took power in Pakistan overthrowing the democratic govt in Pakistan and nothing changed. In fact, a senior general in Pakistani army sent to convince the taliban to hand over Bin Laden to US instead urged Taliban to not surrender and offered his help to them!! During the seige of Tora bora, pakistani helicopters were allowed by the coalition forces to airlift their army personnel before commecenment of the attack. Many analysts believe that bin laden and mullah omar too might have escaped then.

There was and continues to be lot of support in Pakistani armed forces to the taliban as it was their creation. At this time, US was pressurising pakistan to do more in capturing taliban. Musharraf then announced "free elections" in Pakistan. However, he made it a condition that only graduates will be allowed to contest. However, even graduates of madrasas were allowed to compete. By cleverly maneuvering the elections, he ensured that the people elected would do his bidding. So in the elections, the MMA, a ultra-conservative party got a number of their folks elected. Musharraf already had made a deal with them. The other mainstream parties started calling this the mulla-military alliance. MMA also won elections in NWFA, the tribal area bordering Afghanistan. He then used the MMA as a negotating tool with US saying that since they were popularly elected, he has to take them along in any decision he makes. As a result, he has not cracked down hard on any of these relegious parties or the hate messages they indoctrinate among the students of these madrasas or their militant activities. And he also used them to parrot his statement that since the relegious parties have so much support, if he is removed, they will take over and US will find it even harder to work with them. Musharraf and the pakistani army also treat these trained terrorists as an irregular fifth column should a war with India arise. So he is reluctant to close down any of these terrorist outfits. In fact, he banned two of the major terrorist groups called Lashkar-e-toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed, but gave them ample time to withdraw all their bank balances. They are now operating under different names in Pakistan. All these terrorist groups are the ones comprising al-quaeda and targetting the civilized world.

So, anyone who believes that the terrorists are in pakistan by accident, or that they have no official patronage, need to do their research more thorougly. In fact, all the information I posted is freely available on the web in case anyone wants to research more into the radicalization of pakistani society.

[Edited 2006-08-13 21:09:24]
 
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chrisnh
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RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:06 am

It's pretty hard to have flights on a route like this when the only people not on the 'No Fly' list are flying the plane.
 
airxliban
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RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 38):

Thanks for the info. I obviously didn't know all of that. I was under the impression that Pakistani society had become more civilised over the last 15 years. But then again all the Pakistanis that I know are from the elite and I imagine give off a different impression than would your average guy from Peshawar.

I'm still skeptical of the extent to which nonstop flights constitute a security threat, however.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
LAXDESI
Topic Author
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RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:32 am

Blrsea,
Excellent post(#38).
 
Horus
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RE: No Direct Flights From Pakistan To USA

Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:39 am

Unfortunately certain members have turned this discussion into a political one that has nothing to do with civil aviation and therefore the thread has been locked.

Horus
Forum Moderator

[Edited 2006-08-13 23:52:21]
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