dia77
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DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:42 am

Although this topic makes frequent appearances, it's been awhile since it has been discussed. Does anyone have insight into whether LH is interested in starting DEN-MUC next year? DEN has been a money maker for LH, so I imagine that this route must be high on their wish list.

In addition, does AF have any North American expansion plans in the next year? DEN always seems to be part of AF's evaluation process.

I'm looking for any plausible rumors or news  Smile
 
eva777sea
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:01 am

SEA will probably see service to CDG on AF before DEN because of the connections offered by AS but I think LH could make DEN-MUC work.
 
roseflyer
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:00 am

I agree that SEA is actively courting European Airlines, but Denver might work. LH puts a 744 into DEN from FRA, so MUC might work on an A343. I'm guessing there are quite a few connecting passengers that go elsewhere in Europe from FRA since DEN lacks European flights. The same could work with MUC. I think MUC would happen before DEN recieves more than daily flights to FRA.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
sw733
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:13 am

LH could definitely work simply because of the Star Alliance ties...without that, I would doubt seeing a DEN-MUC route...but then again, DEN would serve mostly as a transit point to MUC for west coast folks, and there is already an LAX-MUC or SFO-MUC route if I am not mistaken, so, we'll see
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:25 am

In my humble opinion, I would expect a DEN/MUC on LH before a DEN/CDG on AF. That said, I would also expect DEN/CDG on AF before SLC/CDG.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:49 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
I agree that SEA is actively courting European Airlines, but Denver might work. LH puts a 744 into DEN from FRA, so MUC might work on an A343.

Waht they can court and what they get may very well be two different things!

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 1):
SEA will probably see service to CDG on AF before DEN because of the connections offered by AS but I think LH could make DEN-MUC work.

SEA to CDG will not happen, if Air France can gain traffic rights to YVR. In addition SEA-MUC will not be happening. Look for MUC-SEA with the A333 before SEA enters the picture. LH is more than content with the UA feed from PDX-SEA, SFO-SEA, LAX-SEA, DEN-SEA, ORD-SEA, and AC from YVR-SEA, YYZ-SEA.

Quoting DIA77 (Thread starter):
In addition, does AF have any North American expansion plans in the next year? DEN always seems to be part of AF's evaluation process

In lieu of the SkyTeam marriages that have been going on, there is a better chance of seeing AF to SLC, before DEN. The O/D from DEN to France is not that high. The feed that AF can get from SLC-CDG would more than fill a A332 to Paris. Also note that Air France may very well introduce a second daily service to San Francisco in 2007 with the A332 or A343. The second daily seasonal 747-400 to SFO was originally planned in 2003, however that was put on hold.
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
eva777sea
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 5):
SEA to CDG will not happen, if Air France can gain traffic rights to YVR. In addition SEA-MUC will not be happening. Look for MUC-SEA with the A333 before SEA enters the picture. LH is more than content with the UA feed from PDX-SEA, SFO-SEA, LAX-SEA, DEN-SEA, ORD-SEA, and AC from YVR-SEA, YYZ-SEA.

Hmm even though Seattle is much larger and there are many more connection oppurtunities for AF with AS at SEA?
 
CO767FA
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:12 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 5):
In lieu of the SkyTeam marriages that have been going on, there is a better chance of seeing AF to SLC, before DEN. The O/D from DEN to France is not that high. The feed that AF can get from SLC-CDG would more than fill a A332 to Paris. Also note that Air France may very well introduce a second daily service to San Francisco in 2007 with the A332 or A343. The second daily seasonal 747-400 to SFO was originally planned in 2003, however that was put on hold.

Is this just an educated guess?
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:14 pm

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 6):
Hmm even though Seattle is much larger and there are many more connection oppurtunities for AF with AS at SEA?

That hasnt stopped Cathay Pacific, Air China, China Eastern, Singapore Airlines, Lufthansa, KLM, JAL, Philippine Airlines, or others from flying to Vancouver for years.
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BigGSFO
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:51 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 5):
The feed that AF can get from SLC-CDG would more than fill a A332 to Paris.

Oh God not this again. Ain't going to happen.

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 5):
SEA to CDG will not happen, if Air France can gain traffic rights to YVR.

Two different cities, two different countries, two different markets. Service to one does not mean service to both.
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:56 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 9):
Two different cities, two different countries, two different markets. Service to one does not mean service to both.

If they are two different markets then why doesnt Cathay Pacific, Air China, China Eastern, Singapore Airlines, Lufthansa, KLM, JAL, or Philippine Airlines fly to Seattle?
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LTU932
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:43 pm

MUC-DEN might only be on the table for LH once their additional A346s arrive (to either serve it with an A346 or to free up an A343), but then again, why doesn't UA try their luck with DEN-MUC? A 772 could be perfect for UA on this route. Since UA and LH are partners in Star Alliance, this could make MUC grow as a hub for the Star Alliance.
 
eva777sea
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:48 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 10):
If they are two different markets then why doesnt Cathay Pacific, Air China, China Eastern, Singapore Airlines, Lufthansa, KLM, JAL, or Philippine Airlines fly to Seattle?

All of those you quoted besides LH and KL are Asian airlines and the large asian population in YVR is the reason they fly there over SEA. LH flies to YVR because of the star connections on AC and KL codeshares on the NW flight to AMS from SEA so that market is already served for them.

SEA is much larger than YVR and there are many more connections through AS in SEA compared to the connection oppurtunities in YVR. The SEA metro area is also about the same size as the DEN and SLC metro areas combined.

[Edited 2006-08-13 06:49:38]

[Edited 2006-08-13 06:52:02]
 
airfrnt
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:53 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11):
MUC-DEN might only be on the table for LH once their additional A346s arrive (to either serve it with an A346 or to free up an A343), but then again, why doesn't UA try their luck with DEN-MUC? A 772 could be perfect for UA on this route. Since UA and LH are partners in Star Alliance, this could make MUC grow as a hub for the Star Alliance.

DEN will either see service to MUC, or it will see a 380 to FRA. UA has had DEN on a very strict no international traffic policy. I think that is changing now with UA's new commitment to the airport (They have committed to 25% increase in traffic in exchange for DEN forgiving ~125 million in commitment).
 
DYK
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:58 pm

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 12):
All of those you quoted besides LH and KL are Asian airlines and the large asian population in YVR is the reason they fly there over SEA. LH flies to YVR because of the star connections on AC and KL codeshares on the NW flight to AMS from SEA so that market is already served for them.

Let me correct you, LH has been flying to YVR before star connections on AC. Lh flies to YVR for the same reasons SK flies to Seattle as is the same reason KL flies to Vancouver. YVR is a smaller city with a larger market, SEA is not an International market , it is a large U.S. market city. I dont think you will never see AF in Seattle for the simple reason in can not support another European carrier. Case in point Aeroflot. Can not remember what Europe services YVR has lost since for ever but while Seattle has lost service YVR has continued to gain. Air France will serve YVR well before Seattle.
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eva777sea
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:18 pm

BA, KL, LH, LTU, and AC fly to Europe from YVR and BA, NW, and SK fly to Europe from SEA. The European destinations served by AC probably rely partly on connections. So what exactly makes YVR a much bigger European market?
 
DYK
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:29 pm

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 15):
BA, KL, LH, LTU, and AC fly to Europe from YVR and BA, NW, and SK fly to Europe from SEA. The European destinations served by AC probably rely partly on connections. So what exactly makes YVR a much bigger European market?

There are a few things present in YVR and absent in SEA
1. much larger ethnic community
2. a very large expat community
3. Unique in N.A. as there are many Europeans that live part of the year B.C
4.It is a larger tourist destination in terms of Europeans, Asian, South AMericans, Australians.
5. it is becoming a year round market
6. It seen as a safer destination
7. Canadian are more similiar to Europeans.
8. It is a much nicer City

BTW I am not a Canadian but Italian and I love this place!!

SEattle is a Bi-product to Vancouver, nothing more.
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eva777sea
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:59 pm

Quoting DYK (Reply 16):
1. much larger ethnic community

OF Europeans? A large portion of Seattle is white. Plus there is much more business travel in and out of SEA.

Quoting DYK (Reply 16):
6. It seen as a safer destination

SEA had less violent crimes in 2004 than YVR.

Quoting DYK (Reply 16):
7. Canadian are more similiar to Europeans.

Doesn't even make sense.

Quoting DYK (Reply 16):
8. It is a much nicer City

Seattle is nicknamed the Emerald City...
 
dia77
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:17 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11):
MUC-DEN might only be on the table for LH once their additional A346s arrive

Back to the original topic at hand....... I think the A346 might be a little too large for the DEN-MUC market. Unfortunately UA has no interest in pursuing this route.
 
PavlovsDog
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:16 pm

Quoting DYK (Reply 16):
There are a few things present in YVR and absent in SEA
1. much larger ethnic community
2. a very large expat community
3. Unique in N.A. as there are many Europeans that live part of the year B.C
4.It is a larger tourist destination in terms of Europeans, Asian, South AMericans, Australians.
5. it is becoming a year round market
6. It seen as a safer destination
7. Canadian are more similiar to Europeans.
8. It is a much nicer City

BTW I am not a Canadian but Italian and I love this place!!

SEattle is a Bi-product to Vancouver, nothing more.

You sound like a Texan. LOL.

I love Vancouver but your view of the Seattle market vis-a-vis Vancouver is ignorant. I don't think YVR getting AF service before Seattle is fait accompli as you imply.
 
bolu340
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:55 pm

LH is seriously considering for summer 2007 MUC-DEN or MUC-YYC. One of both will be operating. Don´t know actually the frequency and type of ac, most probably A343.
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:42 pm

Quoting DIA77 (Thread starter):
Does anyone have insight into whether LH is interested in starting DEN-MUC next year? DEN has been a money maker for LH, so I imagine that this route must be high on their wish list.

i totally agree. in fact, it was considered sometime ago but then LH opted to start MUC-YUL instead.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11):
MUC-DEN might only be on the table for LH once their additional A346s arrive (to either serve it with an A346 or to free up an A343), but then again, why doesn't UA try their luck with DEN-MUC? A 772 could be perfect for UA on this route.

very true, currently LH lacks longrange aircraft in order to open up more routes. but the first new A346s (with a three-class layout, btw) will be delivered in September. however, don't expect new destinations before next year's summer schedule (apart from the already announced MUC-GRU and FRA-CCU).

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 13):
DEN will either see service to MUC, or it will see a 380 to FRA.

why would they operate one single frequency per day on an A380 to a Star hub, if a second daily to FRA or a daily flight to MUC would offer a wider range of connections?

Quoting Bolu340 (Reply 20):
LH is seriously considering for summer 2007 MUC-DEN or MUC-YYC. One of both will be operating. Don´t know actually the frequency and type of ac, most probably A343.

i would agree with MUC-DEN. however, I am very interested in your MUC-YYC assumption. would you please shed more information on this? to be honest, I think it is way off (LH seems to have been unable to make MUC-YVR work)...

or have you been wildering in another German aviation forum  Wink

brgds
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
DYK
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:55 pm

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 19):
I love Vancouver but your view of the Seattle market vis-a-vis Vancouver is ignorant. I don't think YVR getting AF service before Seattle is fait accompli as you imply

before making the ignorant remark, read first as it is in english. AF may not serve YVR, but yvr would have a better chance if serving Seattle.

I like Seattle but it is over rated as a market. If it was a international market for airlines then you would see a lot of more international service.
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BigGSFO
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 10):
If they are two different markets then why doesnt Cathay Pacific, Air China, China Eastern, Singapore Airlines, Lufthansa, KLM, JAL, or Philippine Airlines fly to Seattle?

You answered your own question: they are different markets. Which is the same reason why Scandinavian flies to SEA and not YVR. Also KLM does serve Seattle with a code-share NW SEA-AMS.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 13):
DEN will either see service to MUC, or it will see a 380 to FRA. UA has had DEN on a very strict no international traffic policy. I think that is changing now with UA's new commitment to the airport (They have committed to 25% increase in traffic in exchange for DEN forgiving ~125 million in commitment).

When UA do go international over the Atlantic from DEN, IMHO it will be to LHR when Open Skies is eventually agreed.
 
dia77
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:28 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 24):
When UA do go international over the Atlantic from DEN, IMHO it will be to LHR when Open Skies is eventually agreed.

UA flew DEN-FRA for a brief time a few years ago. They have expressed interest in operating DEN-LHR once open skies is agreed to.
 
eva777sea
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting DIA77 (Reply 25):
UA flew DEN-FRA for a brief time a few years ago. They have expressed interest in operating DEN-LHR once open skies is agreed to.

Does UA have the slots right now to do that?
 
Humberside
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 26):
Does UA have the slots right now to do that?

Yes, but they are leased to other airlines such as AC
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BigGSFO
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 26):
Does UA have the slots right now to do that?

UA could launch Denver-London if they wanted to, however the flight would have to operate to Gatwick, not Heathrow. DEN is not a Heathrow-desgnated US gateway and UA would have to open a brand new station and split their London operations to accomodate one flight. I am guessing the economics don't justify the flight right now.

As an aside, if UA were to launch DEN-LGW, BA would have to shift their current DEN-Heathrow flight to Gatwick. There is a provision in the Bermuda 2 agreement that allows BA to operate service from Heathrow to non-Heathrow designated gateways (but approved London gateways) provided no US carrier operates that route. Once a US carrier enters the market (such as UA DEN-London or, say US PHX-London), then the service has to all revert to Gatwick, regardless if the airline if Heathrow designated or not.
 
AMS5280
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:15 am

Does any one see a reason for DEN-AMS non-stop? Currently UA908/909 through ORD. There are a lot of Dutch expats around Denver.
 
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LTU932
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting DIA77 (Reply 18):
I think the A346 might be a little too large for the DEN-MUC market. Unfortunately UA has no interest in pursuing this route.

Hence why I also said the additional A346s could help free up an A343 for MUC-DEN by LH.
 
dia77
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting AMS5280 (Reply 29):
Does any one see a reason for DEN-AMS non-stop? Currently UA908/909 through ORD. There are a lot of Dutch expats around Denver.

Martinair had a weekly DEN-AMS nonstop about 10 years ago. I definitely think there is potential for that route, but it would probably come after MUC and CDG.
 
DIA
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 21):
Quoting DIA77 (Thread starter):
Does anyone have insight into whether LH is interested in starting DEN-MUC next year? DEN has been a money maker for LH, so I imagine that this route must be high on their wish list.

i totally agree. in fact, it was considered sometime ago but then LH opted to start MUC-YUL instead.



Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 21):
why would they operate one single frequency per day on an A380 to a Star hub, if a second daily to FRA or a daily flight to MUC would offer a wider range of connections?

Johnnybgoode: You sort of anwered your own question with your first reply to DIA77: LH loves DEN...it is a cash cow. LH has stated that they are seriously considering serving the route with an A380. DEN really doesn't need another freq. to FRA...they just need more capacity. Now, if DEN-MUC started, I'd bet they'd keep the 747/A346 on the DEN route instead of upgrading to the A380.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting DIA (Reply 32):
You sort of anwered your own question with your first reply to DIA77: LH loves DEN...it is a cash cow. LH has stated that they are seriously considering serving the route with an A380. DEN really doesn't need another freq. to FRA...they just need more capacity. Now, if DEN-MUC started, I'd bet they'd keep the 747/A346 on the DEN route instead of upgrading to the A380.

sorry, but i could not disagree more!

yes, FRA-DEN probably is a very healthy route (well, i agree with you there). No, they have never stated that DEN was under consideration as an A380 destination! please, prove me wrong!
only ORD stands a chance to be served by an A380 (as a major UA hub) because it is usually served all year round with four, sometimes five daily frequencies!

the A380 makes sense on routes with either

a) one daily flight (reason being no major Star hub at the other end, e.g. MIA & MEX, or limited capacity for whatever reason, e.g. DEL, NRT)

or

b) where frequencies are already high.

imho, DEN neither falls in of the those two categories (granted, it's a simplistic view, but that's for the sake of the argument).

a second daily service, be it to FRA or MUC, would improve connections for passengers beyond DEN and beyond FRA. increasing frequencies improves the network product both LH and UA offer their customers, upgrading to an A380 wouldn't.

brgds
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
dia77
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 33):
No, they have never stated that DEN was under consideration as an A380 destination! please, prove me wrong!

While this is nothing formal, Andrea Tollar (district sales manager for Lufthansa) said that Lufthansa is considering DEN as an A380 destination:

http://www.flydenver.com/diabiz/info...ublications/wingtips/2006_qtr2.pdf

page 3 of the newsletter.
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting DIA77 (Reply 34):
While this is nothing formal, Andrea Tollar (district sales manager for Lufthansa) said that Lufthansa is considering DEN as an A380 destination:

thanks for pointing that out!

but to be honest, I would not count regional sales managers to be the most accurate source (not saying they are inaccurate, not all!) as they would have to advertise their service and make their airline look good in the eyes of the local customers. and there is no better way than doing so by linking it to the great and new A380!

LH's sales manager for Australia once said, LH would reintroduce SYD services with the A380. there has not been a single sign of that so far.
but granted, who knows what the future hold for DEN, perhaps an A380 some day? still, i'm skeptical.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 23):
Also KLM does serve Seattle with a code-share NW SEA-AMS.

By that insane sense KLM also serves Oakland, Sacramento, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Colorado Springs, Spokane, Boise, Salt Lake, Omaha, St. Louis, Austin, and San Antonio.

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 17):
OF Europeans? A large portion of Seattle is white.

The Italian, Dutch, and German communities in British Columbia trump Washington state anyday.

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 17):
Plus there is much more business travel in and out of SEA.

????? Please provide proof of the above statement.

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 12):
LH flies to YVR because of the star connections

100% False, Lufthansa flew to Vancouver for decades before Star was in existence.

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 12):
SEA is much larger than YVR

And your point is?
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eva777sea
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 36):
By that insane sense KLM also serves Oakland, Sacramento, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Colorado Springs, Spokane, Boise, Salt Lake, Omaha, St. Louis, Austin, and San Antonio.

SEA is listed as a destination served on the KL/AF route map.

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 36):
The Italian, Dutch, and German communities in British Columbia trump Washington state anyday.

Source?

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 36):
????? Please provide proof of the above statement.

What fortune 500 companies are headquartered in Vancouver and area...none.
Washington Mutual, Amazon.com, Nordstroms, Starbucks, and Safeco insurance (Expeditors International is #506 on the list) are all Headquartered in Seatte. Real Networks is also located in Seattle. In the greater Seattle area there are the fortune 500 companies Cosco, Microsoft, Weyerhaeuser, and Paccar plus there is still a lot of Boeing activity in the Seattle area. There is also the America headquarters of T-Mobile and Nintendo. Plus who knows how many regional headquarters.

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 36):
And your point is?

More O&D traffic.
 
DYK
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 37):
What fortune 500 companies are headquartered in Vancouver and area...none.
Washington Mutual, Amazon.com, Nordstroms, Starbucks, and Safeco insurance (Expeditors International is #506 on the list) are all Headquartered in Seatte. Real Networks is also located in Seattle. In the greater Seattle area there are the fortune 500 companies Cosco, Microsoft, Weyerhaeuser, and Paccar plus there is still a lot of Boeing activity in the Seattle area. There is also the America headquarters of T-Mobile and Nintendo. Plus who knows how many regional headquarters.

look the bottom line is International carriers serve YVR because there is a market and interest YVR. These days if an airline does not make money on a route they leave. Seattle without doubt is a larger business market but you dont see carrier lining up to serve SEA. People travel business class because they can whether they are attached to a fortune 500 business or not. KLM, Lufthansa, Cathay, Singapore are do fairly well in business class ex vancouver.
Comparin Seattle and vancouver is almost liking comparing apples and oranges, they are different markets.

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 37):
The Italian, Dutch, and German communities in British Columbia trump Washington state anyday.

Source?

Just come up and look for your self. There is a cosmopolitan feel in vancovuer which you dont find in Seattle. My first impression of Vancouver is that it is very mutlicultural.

my apologies for hijacking this string
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eva777sea
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting DYK (Reply 38):
but you dont see carrier lining up to serve SEA.

There aren't carriers lining up to serve YVR either otherwise more than just 16 million people would go through the airport in a year. And yes YVR is larger tourist destination, but it is not a humongous difference. During the summer downtown Seattle is a big tourist destination. 5 Airlines offer flights to Europe from YVR and 3 from Seattle and one the ones that offer service from YVR is AC. The European market from SEA and YVR is much closer than the asian market which YVR completely dominates. Plus, lots of business travelers = High Yields.
 
A342
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:20 am

MUC-DEN could be very viable. The daily UA flight MUC-IAD continues to DEN, and other passengers will chose to go via FRA or LHR in order to avoid the inconvenient transit procedure in the USA.

If UA wanted to fly the route, a daily 763ER flight would certainly do well.

I'm not sure if LH can fill a daily A343, maybe they can if they downgrade the FRA flight to a A343 and send some connecting pax via MUC.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 39):
There aren't carriers lining up to serve YVR either otherwise more than just 16 million people would go through the airport in a year. And yes YVR is larger tourist destination, but it is not a humongous difference. During the summer downtown Seattle is a big tourist destination. 5 Airlines offer flights to Europe from YVR and 3 from Seattle and one the ones that offer service from YVR is AC. The European market from SEA and YVR is much closer than the asian market which YVR completely dominates. Plus, lots of business travelers = High Yields

You are however forgetting the importance of British Columbia for the Winter Ski Season, and Summer Cruise Season.

Quoting DYK (Reply 38):
Just come up and look for your self. There is a cosmopolitan feel in vancovuer which you dont find in Seattle. My first impression of Vancouver is that it is very mutlicultural.

No need to I am one of those Italian-Dutch hybrids with relatives in Vancouver and Victoria..  Smile

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 37):
More O&D traffic

False...

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 37):
SEA is listed as a destination served on the KL/AF route map.

So is Pheonix... In addition your previous post was NW/KL not AF/KL. Of which neither one fly to Seattle. However KL does fly, and has flown to YVR for decades!
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
DYK
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 39):
There aren't carriers lining up to serve YVR either otherwise more than just 16 million people would go through the airport in a year. And yes YVR is larger tourist destination, but it is not a humongous difference. During the summer downtown Seattle is a big tourist destination. 5 Airlines offer flights to Europe from YVR and 3 from Seattle and one the ones that offer service from YVR is AC. The European market from SEA and YVR is much closer than the asian market which YVR completely dominates. Plus, lots of business travelers = High

Unlike Seattle, access to YVR is very much restricted byt he Canadian goverment and I was not suggesting airlines are lining up to service Vancovuer
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EXAAUADL
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:28 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
That said, I would also expect DEN/CDG on AF before SLC/CDG.

not necessairly. AF could provide connections only beyond CDG by serving DEN, while going to SLC would provide conenctions beyond both CDG and SLC

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 5):
The feed that AF can get from SLC-CDG would
more than fill a A332 to Paris.

My guess is it would be a A340. A hot summer day in SLC would probably require engine out climb abilities that the A330 going to CDG pax, fuel cargo and all couldnt do.

Quoting A342 (Reply 40):
f UA wanted to fly the route, a daily 763ER flight would certainly do well.

DEN-MUC absolutely cant be done operationally with a 763. No cargo and horrific pax weight restirction. I am talking probably less than 150 pax.


One reason UA dropped DEN-FRA wasnt the market, it was that UA had to have the planes leave on the 2000 East bank due to heat and operational performance. That put it into FRA too late for many conenctions to eastern europe and middle east.
 
MAH4546
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 41):

So is Pheonix... In addition your previous post was NW/KL not AF/KL. Of which neither one fly to Seattle. However KL does fly, and has flown to YVR for decades!

KL/NW run all USA-AMS routes on a split operation interchanging equipment between the two airlines very freely. KLM does, in practice, fly to Seattle with a NW A330. They split the revenue with NW 50/50, it is not just a codeshare.
a.
 
User avatar
LTU932
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 43):
DEN-MUC absolutely cant be done operationally with a 763. No cargo and horrific pax weight restirction. I am talking probably less than 150 pax.

Even on DEN's 15,000 ft runway?
 
eva777sea
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 41):
Summer Cruise Season

Seattle has large cruise operations too.

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 41):
False...

First you say Vancouver is a larger business center than Seattle and now that Vancouver despite that the Seattle area has 1.7 million people more than the Vancouver area... Do you have a source?
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:05 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 44):
KL/NW run all USA-AMS routes on a split operation interchanging equipment between the two airlines very freely. KLM does, in practice, fly to Seattle with a NW A330. They split the revenue with NW 50/50, it is not just a codeshare.

MAH4546, please provide us with a date or time period that KLM has flown their own metal to Seattle. You will find that KLM has never flown to Seattle with their own metal. Everyone is well aware of the NWA/KLM deal. That is not a secret. Do a search on the forum and throughout the internet there are scores of stories about it. A prime question to ask is if the KLM.NWA relationship will last past 2007. The codeshare program between DAL/KLM may very well prove more fruitful seeing as that Air France, parent in the AF/KL partnership has reaped financial rewards for years with Delta Airlines.
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2002
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:35 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 28):

UA could launch Denver-London if they wanted to, however the flight would have to operate to Gatwick, not Heathrow. DEN is not a Heathrow-desgnated US gateway and UA would have to open a brand new station and split their London operations to accomodate one flight. I am guessing the economics don't justify the flight right now.

There are floating designations that can be provided, but for right now, it doesn't make sense for UA to operate the route unless they can shift designation to LHR.

UA has had the policy of restricting international flights to ORD and SFO. I think that will change very soon, given the other carriers success in expanding international operations. Since DEN is UA's second busiest hub, I think it's only a matter of time before operations expand.

Quoting DIA (Reply 32):

Johnnybgoode: You sort of anwered your own question with your first reply to DIA77: LH loves DEN...it is a cash cow. LH has stated that they are seriously considering serving the route with an A380. DEN really doesn't need another freq. to FRA...they just need more capacity. Now, if DEN-MUC started, I'd bet they'd keep the 747/A346 on the DEN route instead of upgrading to the A380.

The question is if DEN can sustain another A340 to Europe or not. If it can, frequency is the choice.

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 33):

yes, FRA-DEN probably is a very healthy route (well, i agree with you there). No, they have never stated that DEN was under consideration as an A380 destination! please, prove me wrong!

It has been very widely reported here that DEN is on the top of the list for A380s from LH.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DEN-MUC, DEN-CDG Possibility?

Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:49 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 43):
AF could provide connections only beyond CDG by serving DEN, while going to SLC would provide conenctions beyond both CDG and SLC

I don't believe there are any connections worth having through SLC that AF cannot already get via any of its other US destinations, either through a codeshare with a Skyteam partner or even interline travel. SLC/CDG would have a tiny local market that could be bolstered by mostly low yield connections, whereas DEN/CDG would have a better-but not fantastic-local market.
E pur si muove -Galileo