ETStar
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Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:38 pm

Airlines that have their flights departing at midnight opt to either have their departures indicated as 23:59 (ie 1 minute to midnight) or 00:01 (1 minute after).

The q's:

1. Why not midnight?
2. Implications of 23:59?
3. Implications of 00:01?
 
LAXintl
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:49 pm

23:59 works well primarily from a passengers point of view.

Having a departure at 00:01 can open up a can of worms as far as what day and have passengers show up on the wrong day.
Same goes for midnight. Midnight of what night?

In addition many computer systems dont accept 00:00 as being a valid time. Same reason why many airlines which work on UTC time will not schedule a flight at 00:00 UTC as aircaft, crew and a host of other schedules are prone to errors.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
aq737
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:07 pm

The time of midnight 0:00UTC causes trouble for passengers. At HNL, when QF operated their midnight (or around there) flights to SYD, I frequently could see some passengers show up at the airport to see no QF ground crew as QF only operates three times a week. If a flight leaves at Midnight, between Monday and Tuesday (technically 12:00am of Tuesday), that means passengers need to be at the airport at around 9:30 or 10:00pm on Monday night. So, this means that they need to be at the airport on Monday for a Tuesday departure. For some, this is quite complicated and they can easily confuse the days of their departure.

UA has an 11:59 departure out of HNL, the latest west coast departure. This is so that it is clear what night the departure is.

Aq737
 
soups
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:15 pm

GH flights to JFK, DUS, FCO and LHR use to take off allat 23:59 from ACC. just for people don't get confused on what day
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RobertS975
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:16 pm

There are numerous flights out of ANC destined for the lower 48 states that leave at 0030 to 0130... people are always showing up on the WRONG day!
 
ManchesterMAN
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:49 pm

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 4):
There are numerous flights out of ANC destined for the lower 48 states that leave at 0030 to 0130... people are always showing up on the WRONG day!

What hapens to these people? Are they told to buy another ticket as punishment for being stupid or do the airlines typically show some mercy and rebook them on the flight they thought they were supposed to catch? I know in the UK they'd be told to get lost or buy another ticket but I notice US carriers seem more willing to rebook people.
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vfw614
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:57 pm

In the first place, what makes airlines schedule a flight at 0000, 2359 or 0001 ? In the deepest of night, it hardly makes a difference if they schedule a flight at, say 2350 ? Certainly slots, gates, ramp space, air traffic, connections cannot be an issue...
 
Leskova
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:28 am

Going by how many calls we receive from pax that have missed their flights, because they thought that a 0:30 departure on 10AUG meant that they'd have to show up the evening of 10 August because the plane would, effectively, depart int he first hours of the 11th...

Without blaming everything on TV - but (not sure if it works that way around the world) at least here in Germany, TV programs are always published as 6am to 5:59am as being one day... in other words, 10 August starts at 6am on the 10th and ends at 5:59am on the 11th. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to have adopted that as real time, thinking that 0:30 still counts as the day before........

Sound strange? Sure... but in more than 50% of the cases in which I spoke to the passenger or the agency that had booked the flight, that was precisely the reason they gave - they were completely astonished that anyone would consider a departure time of 0:30am as being "the next day"...  Yeah sure
Smile - it confuses people!
 
aviationwiz
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 7):
Without blaming everything on TV - but (not sure if it works that way around the world) at least here in Germany, TV programs are always published as 6am to 5:59am as being one day

Precisely the way it is on this side of the pond, at least in the TV Listings book that comes every week with the newspaper.
Proudly from the Home of the Red Tail.
 
RobertS975
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 6):
In the first place, what makes airlines schedule a flight at 0000, 2359 or 0001 ? In the deepest of night, it hardly makes a difference if they schedule a flight at, say 2350 ? Certainly slots, gates, ramp space, air traffic, connections cannot be an issue...

Well, in the case of US overnight red-eyes, these flights all depart from somewhere (HNL, ANC, SEA, SAN, LAX, OAK, SFO etc.) and land the next morning where there are numerous opportunities for onward connections.
The flights leave when they do in order to arrive at a time that is convenient for connecting service.
 
RobertS975
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:23 am

The after midnight departures can even confuse travel agents who will book their clients for a hotel night that they will not actually be using... the client flying out on the 12th at 0130 will NOT need a hotel room for the night of the 11th, but as I said, even TAs fall into this confusion.
 
planesarecool
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 7):
Without blaming everything on TV - but (not sure if it works that way around the world) at least here in Germany, TV programs are always published as 6am to 5:59am as being one day... in other words, 10 August starts at 6am on the 10th and ends at 5:59am on the 11th. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to have adopted that as real time, thinking that 0:30 still counts as the day before........

Same in the UK. If i went onto www.five.tv/tvguide (for example) at 1am, I'd have to go onto "previous day" to find out what was on at the present time.

I know that during the summer, some of our charter carriers have 00:00 departure times, and are advertised as 00:00.

Jet2 have an advisery note on their website in relation to post-midnight flights:

Quote:
PLEASE NOTE: All flight times are local and in 24 hour clock. For flights that are very early in the morning (i.e. just after midnight) check-in opens the previous evening 2 hours before the time of your departure. For example: A flight at 00:30 on Monday the 23rd departs in the very early hours of Monday morning so check-in opens at 22:30 on the evening of Sunday the 22nd.
 
boysteve
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 7):
Without blaming everything on TV - but (not sure if it works that way around the world) at least here in Germany, TV programs are always published as 6am to 5:59am as being one day... in other words, 10 August starts at 6am on the 10th and ends at 5:59am on the 11th. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to have adopted that as real time, thinking that 0:30 still counts as the day before........

It is a similar to some Day return train tickets in the UK. If you buy a 'day return ticket' you can actually come back in the early hours of the following morning on routes where there is a train service throughout the night, such as Leeds-Manchester airport for example. However I still think people are stupid idiots if they think 2am on Tuesday actually falls in the early hours of Wednesday morning. Now what was that Darwin theory on natural selection again?........
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 4):
There are numerous flights out of ANC destined for the lower 48 states that leave at 0030 to 0130... people are always showing up on the WRONG day!

ALL the time. And what baffles me is that has been the norm at ANC for as long as I can remember. IF you're travel ANC-Midwest or East Coast, with very few exceptions, you're going to leave around midnight. If your ticket says 12:50am on Tuesday, you better show up Monday night. Not at 11:00am Tuesday - which often happens.

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 10):
The after midnight departures can even confuse travel agents who will book their clients for a hotel night that they will not actually be using... the client flying out on the 12th at 0130 will NOT need a hotel room for the night of the 11th, but as I said, even TAs fall into this confusion.

Lots of folks screw that up as well . . . they wind up paying for a night in a hotel room they never used, or losing the reservation altogether . . . ditto rental cars at their destination.

While I do feel sorry for the occasional traveler, I have to laugh at the supposed "seasoned" travelers that have this happen.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ChicagoFlyer
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:24 am

Don't forget the standby rules. I was flying NW from LAS-DTW on a red-eye with something like 00:30 Monday departure. At first I was glad that I found the flight since the fare was significantly lower than 23:30 or so departure on Sunday, and the timing made little difference to me. But then I did not feel well on Sunday, and called the airline to see if I could standby for the earlier flight, which was met with a resounding "No" since it was a different day!

(In those days it did not cost too much to change the ticket, so I paid to get on an earlier plane the "previous" day, and successfully stood by on yet an earlier one!)

Never have been to Dubai, but don't these Emirates flights depart way in the wee hours of the day? And the deep Latin flights to the US as well, right?
 
Broocy
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:46 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 6):
In the deepest of night, it hardly makes a difference if they schedule a flight at, say 2350 ? Certainly slots, gates, ramp space, air traffic, connections cannot be an issue...

They can be an issue depending on the airport. Take a look at the midnight rush from BKK, SIN and HKG as the Europe bound rush departs. I am sure that hubs in the Middle East experience the same issues as well.
 
bohica
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:58 am

At DH we used to have a LAS-IAD flight which was scheduled to depart LAS at 0015. It was guaranteed that several passengers would show up a day late for the flight. The departure time was changed to 2350 to avoid confusion.
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:28 pm

Quoting Bohica (Reply 16):
At DH we used to have a LAS-IAD flight which was scheduled to depart LAS at 0015. It was guaranteed that several passengers would show up a day late for the flight. The departure time was changed to 2350 to avoid confusion.

Actually is was for competitive reasons that they moved it to 23:50. I happened to be involved in that.

If you book on B6's website, they have a warning, reminding you that your flight departs after midnight (i.e. next day)...good idea IMO.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
N702ML
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:42 pm

I think one thing that people havent mentioned is the computer systems used by the airlines....

If you are checking in for a 0000 departure....that could cause a problem for an airline computer system.

I know, for a fact, that the airline I work for used to (and may still) have a problem doing the flight closing entry for flights that are scheduled to depart AROUND midnight...

I remember the questions now....

"I am trying to close this flight (at 1159 tonight) and the computer is saying the flight is already closed (because LAST night the flight left a few minutes late AFTER midnight and therefore the SAME flight was already closed once today)."

"I am trying to check this passenger in and the computer is telling me the flight has already departed (because LAST night the flight was delayed and didn't leave until after 0000 and the computer sees the flight has already operated ONCE today)."
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of Southwest Airlines.
 
Analog
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

Quoting Aq737 (Reply 2):
. If a flight leaves at Midnight, between Monday and Tuesday (technically 12:00am of Tuesday),

Then 12:00pm would technically be both noon and afternoon, since PM=after noon?  Smile AFAIK the US DOT says one should not use either 12:00pm or 12:00am; consider them non-existent times.

Using the 11:59pm (23:59) or 12:01am (00:01) makes everything obvious (except silly people confused about when the day rolls over).
 
NWrr
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:33 pm

I know that when I book flights for people, I am very specific about when the flight departs. For example, I'll tell them that "Flight 336 leaves LAX at 12:10am on Wednesday, August 23rd and arrives DTW 7:34am the same day. You will want to check in at LAX on Tuesday night..." This seems to avoid confusion with the people that I speak with, but I know that my fellow co-workers are not always so forthcoming with that type of info for our pax.

I get a lot of calls from people who miss their flights by showing up at the wrong day. Unless the ATO personnel are in a particulary nice mood, then the pax is required to change their ticket and pony up any applicable fees and fare difference. Ouch Sad
Welcome to the back of the boat...the non-rev section
 
vfw614
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:55 pm

Quoting Broocy (Reply 15):
They can be an issue depending on the airport. Take a look at the midnight rush from BKK, SIN and HKG as the Europe bound rush departs. I am sure that hubs in the Middle East experience the same issues as well.

Well, I did not mean that the flights should depart in the morning or afternoon, but should only be scheduled in the timetable like 10 minutes earlier to avoid a confusing departure time for customers. If there is a slot issue, operationwise the flight could always be scheduled for 00:00.
 
UpperDeck79
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:47 pm

While not in the aviation industry, they have found a solution for this in the entertainment industry in Japan: not the 24-hour clock but a 29-hour clock! Big grin

For instance, if a bar is open from 8 p.m. to 1 a.m. it's advertised as being open 20:00-25:00! Big grin So 1 a.m. on Wed becomes 25:00 on Tuesday, 2 a.m. is 26:00 etc.
AY and ANA rock!
 
AUA747
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting ChicagoFlyer (Reply 14):
Never have been to Dubai, but don't these Emirates flights depart way in the wee hours of the day? And the deep Latin flights to the US as well, right?

Most flights to Europe out of Middle East leaves between 11.30pm and 3am, gives them an early morning arrival in europe. Once I flew DXB-EWR on MH which left at 2.30am, I was surprised to see how busy the airport was around that time
 
Olympus69
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting Analog (Reply 19):
Then 12:00pm would technically be both noon and afternoon, since PM=after noon? AFAIK the US DOT says one should not use either 12:00pm or 12:00am; consider them non-existent times.

They are non-existent. The correct form is 12:00 Noon and 12:00 Midnight.
 
carmenlu15
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 10):
The after midnight departures can even confuse travel agents who will book their clients for a hotel night that they will not actually be using... the client flying out on the 12th at 0130 will NOT need a hotel room for the night of the 11th, but as I said, even TAs fall into this confusion.

Tell me about it... Take Taca, for instance. Nearly all their LAX, ORD and SFO departures are around midnight, so we always advised passengers to show up the day before. However, there was not a single day when we would receive a call from a passenger that showed up almost a day late... It's not much of an issue if there's space available on the flight, especially in LAX or SFO; the real trouble was with passengers departing ORD, as the flight operates only 3 or 4 times a week!
Don't expect to see me around that much (if at all) -- the contact link should still work, though.
 
yow
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RE: Departure Of 23:59 Vs 00:01

Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:26 am

Why is it that the 24 hour clock is seldom used by U.S carriers yet is the norm just about everywhere else around the world? (WestJet doesn't really use the 24-hour clock either.) I'm referring to airline ops pax would see (i.e. FIDS, timetables, reservations, etc.) and not behind-the-scenes airline ops. Personally, I prefer utilizing the 24 hour clock.

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