JAM747
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Engine Commonalities Between Airbus And Boeings?

Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:00 am

Are there any Boeing and Airbus Aircrafts which use the same engines? I am sure they might be calibrated differently or have accessory parts that vary from each airframe or type. Are there any operator who has both A and B planes in it's fleet and can swap engines from a A aircraft to B? For example are there certain engines on A 340 that can work on a 747 if they are from the same manufacturer such as RR, GE , etc. I know some 767 engines and 747 engines are very similar if not the same but I was wondering if the same can happen between A and B. Have there ever been a case when having engine commonality is more important in terms of costs and logistics than training pilots on a new type? Thanks.
 
gigneil
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RE: Engine Commonalities Between Airbus And Boeings?

Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:05 pm

Yeah the 767-300ER, 767-200ER, A300-600R, A310-300, and 747-400 use the same basic engine (the CF6-80C2). There are different subvariants for each, but they're the same major variant.

I don't believe you could swap whole engines, but I am sure they can spare parts.

N
 
FlySSC
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RE: Engine Commonalities Between Airbus And Boeings?

Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:23 pm

Engines are not made for a specific type of aircraft (A or B).
They are conceived to deliver a certain thrust, capable of pushing in the air a certain weight.
From that point, an engine can equip various aircraft types :

The CFM56 on A320 (2), A340 (4) or various B737 ...
The CF6-50 on A300s or DC10s
The Pratt & Whitney JT8D-9 on the Caravelle 10B and B727-200 etc ...
 
Glareskin
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RE: Engine Commonalities Between Airbus And Boeings?

Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:29 pm

Quoting JAM747 (Thread starter):
certain engines on A340 that can work on a 747

A Jumbo with hairdryers? Bad example probably. The 747 is obviously the heavier aircraft and thus needs more thrust. The A330 engines on the 747 would be a better choice.
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gigneil
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RE: Engine Commonalities Between Airbus And Boeings?

Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:47 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 2):
Engines are not made for a specific type of aircraft (A or B).

That's not really quite true for all of them... there are a variety of engines that are aircraft specific, and there are differences between engines on different planes.

The CFM56 has quite large differences between its Airbus and Boeing variants, for example.

N
 
JAM747
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RE: Engine Commonalities Between Airbus And Boeings?

Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:30 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 3):
A Jumbo with hairdryers? Bad example probably. The 747 is obviously the heavier aircraft and thus needs more thrust. The A330 engines on the 747 would be a better choice.

I was thinking that maybe versions of engines on the A340-600 or -500 were used on certain 747-400 models.The A340 does not seem not alot smaller than the 747 especially the -600 model.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Engine Commonalities Between Airbus And Boeings?

Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:30 am

The V2500 on the A320 and the MD90 are very similar. Not interchangeable but the basic engine is the same.
 
cf6ppe
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RE: Engine Commonalities Between Airbus And Boeing

Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:36 am

You have an interesting question about engine interchangeability.

I'll try to provide comments applicable for the CF6-50, CF6-80A and CF6-80C2 powerplant installations on Airbus and Boeing (including the former McD aircraft now under Boeing) airframes.

The below link to GE Transportation shows the different GE engine types.

http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/comparison_turbofan.html

1) GE CF6-50C/C2 powerplants were used on both DC10-30 aircraft and Airbus A300B2/B4 aircraft. The differences between the Airbus and McD is in the airframer installed equipment such as the hydraulic pumps - Airbus used two pumps as two systems, while McD used two pumps as one system meaning that the plumbing, etc is different. Most of the other items are similar except for the electrical harnesses. At least one operator with both types of equipment could convert from the A300B2/B4 to/from DC10-30 in less than one shift.

2) The GE CF6-50E/E2 powerplants were used on B747 aircraft. One operator operated both B747 and DC10-30 equipment and Boeing assisted with a conversion service bulletin to enable the subject powerplants to be used on both aircraft types.

3) The GE CF6-80A powerplants were used on both B767-200 and A310-200 aircraft. However due to the engine configuration - engine core mounted accessory gearbox - the CF6-80A/A2 engines are limited to the B767-200 installation. The CF6-80A3 engine configuration - accessory gearbox mounted on lower fan stator case - are limited to the A310-200 equipment installation.

4) Referencing the above link, for the CF6-80C2 engine types listed there is either an "A", "B" or "D" following "C2", which designates that that engine model is for either Airbus, Boeing or Douglas. Those model designations without an "F" following the numeral following the A, B or D are PMC (power management control) engines, while those with an "F" are FADEC (full authority digital electronic control..??) engines.
Not only are their subtle differences in the engies, but the airframers equipment has to be considered.

I have been told by GE engineers that changing a CF6-80C2 engine from PMC to FADEC can be done, but at the time they were not jumping with joy at the thought.

I am sure that their are some very creative aircraft powerplant engineers that have studied what it takes to be able to use the various engine models on several different aircraft types and some may have succeeded with the task. Remember to accomplish such a multiple use of the powerplants could require both engine and aircraft manufacturer service bulletins, maybe STC's and other legal sign offs to satisfy the FAA and other regulatory agencies.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 1):
I don't believe you could swap whole engines, but I am sure they can spare parts.

Spare parts is a yes depending on model applicabilities. Thats why the former paper illustrated parts catalogs were quite thick. BTW, the IPC's are now on CD's and/or are online.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Engine Commonalities Between Airbus And Boeings?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 4):
That's not really quite true for all of them... there are a variety of engines that are aircraft specific

Right. But that was more "true" in the 50s and 60s.
The best example : RollsRoyce SNECMA Olympus 593 Mk 610 afterburning turbojets, extrapolated of bomber TSR1, and used only for the Supersonic Concorde !


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1337Delta764
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RE: Engine Commonalities Between Airbus And Boeings?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting CF6ppe (Reply 7):
3) The GE CF6-80A powerplants were used on both B767-200 and A310-200 aircraft. However due to the engine configuration - engine core mounted accessory gearbox - the CF6-80A/A2 engines are limited to the B767-200 installation. The CF6-80A3 engine configuration - accessory gearbox mounted on lower fan stator case - are limited to the A310-200 equipment installation.

Delta has CF6-80A2s on their non-ER 767-300s. Isn't Delta the only airline with CF6-80A2s on 767-300s?
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lightsaber
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RE: Engine Commonalities Between Airbus And Boeings?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 2):

The CFM56 on A320 (2), A340 (4) or various B737 ...

?!? A 60.5" CFM-56 (737) is *not* compatible with an A320 CFM-56 of 68.11" (1.73m) diameter. Also, the A340 CFM-56's at 72.3" diameter are not interchangable directly with the A320's smaller engines.

Let's also note a 737-300 has a core that is quite different from that of a 737-700/800/900. Similar? Yes. Same build part #'s? No. (Ok, there is much overlap, but not for most of the "hot" parts, fan, and even HPC blades.)

Its like the pw4000. 94", 100" and 112" inch diameters.

However, core parts are often interchangable, etc.

A 94" pw4000 is a 94" pw4000 until the externals are considered. (This can include the FADAC, and assumes you're talking about the same generation of 94" pw4000.) Oh, fuel injectors do vary by thrust level and sometimes application. But let's not nitpick on LRU's. And yes, an older 94" isn't rated for as much thrust as a new design 94" pw4000... but those are little component upgrades here and there.

Lightsaber
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MarkC
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RE: Engine Commonalities Between Airbus And Boeings?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:23 am

The JT9D7R4's are fairly different with a lot of externals. They even differed in Fan Exit Cases between 747 and 767 models. Thats a very major structural part.

For the 4000's 100's and 112's are exclusive application, so there is no interchangeability with other aircraft. Actually, there are two different versions (used to be three) on the 112". These can only be mixed on the same aircraft if the more powerful version is derated.

As Lightsaber said, the vast majority of the 94" parts are the same for A, B and McD applications. The Boeing only has one hydraulic pump (either 747 or 767), and Airbus and McD have two. There is an SB to block off the unused bore in the gearbox to convert them. The 12 O clock Int case fairing is different on McD's, and that's really about it. The 747 and 767 application is interchangeable, and some operators switch from one to the other all the time, usually accompanied by a software thrust level change.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Engine Commonalities Between Airbus And Boeings?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting MarkC (Reply 11):
The JT9D7R4's are fairly different with a lot of externals. They even differed in Fan Exit Cases between 747 and 767 models. Thats a very major structural part.

I do not mention the JT9D7R4 usually due to the trauma.  Wink

Compared to the pw4000, I sometimes feel the JT9D's are like yaughts... Its almost like each is individually commisioned!  Wink Ok, not that bad.... But have you ever seen a mechanical engine controller?  gnasher   crazy  Its not like an EPROM change is enough to make the engine perform well application to application... Yikes!

Nice summary MarkC.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain