hmmmm...
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Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:00 pm



Above is a photo from the website tenerifecrash, put up by Pan Am co-pilot on that day, Robert Bragg, detailing the destruction left behind.

However, I have noticed that this photo and several others, seem to be from another crash all together. The wreckage in this photo seems to be from a Lufthansa aircraft, possibly from the Nairobi accident?

Can anyone confirm this?
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
lincoln
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:07 pm

Quoting Hmmmm... (Thread starter):
However, I have noticed that this photo and several others, seem to be from another crash all together. The wreckage in this photo seems to be from a Lufthansa aircraft, possibly from the Nairobi accident?

I could be wrong, but not only does it look like a Lufthansa aircraft, but it looks to me like a 3-holer Lufthansa aircraft (DC-10?)... Weren't the both of Tenerife aircraft 747s?

Lincoln
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777DadandJr
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:13 pm

Well, the tail section wreckage in the backround is definately Luftansa.

This photo could not be from Tenerife.

Here is the direct link to the phot page. The photo in question is "EO42.jpg"

http://www.tenerifecrash.com/gallery/Aftermath/index_3.htm


Russ
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elcableguy77
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:15 pm

Sure looks like a three-holer to me, too. And yes, both aircraft involved in the Ternerife crash were 747s.
Former ZW F/A | "Wisconsin 72A, contact departure, see ya."
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:19 pm

Does anyone have the heart to tell Capt. Bragg he's got some photos on his website that don't belong to his accident?

There are a slew from this accident it appears.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:20 pm

Definately a Lufthansa tail there. RIP.

According to Aviation-Safety.net, no LH DC-10s were lost. I'd wager that that tail is off of the '47 lost in Nairobi.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19741120-0&lang=en

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YEGer
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:29 pm

Tail logo does not look like Pan Am or KLM.


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Does not really look a little like a Lufthansa tail though. There is a white outline on the circle in the crash photo; Lufthansa does not have a white outline, theirs is the same color--blue. Besides, I don't recall a DC-10 or MD-11 Lufthansa accident.


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DeltaRules
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:32 pm

IMO, it looks like the white piece below the tail is a part of the fuselage & not a tail mounted engine. It looks like the white is too far down to be a third engine.

DeltaRules
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Outlier
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:49 pm

Quoting YEGer (Reply 6):
There is a white outline on the circle in the crash photo; Lufthansa does not have a white outline,

Look again. The white you mention is simply the yellow being washed out/reflecting in the sunlight.
 
jwenting
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:51 pm

Quoting YEGer (Reply 6):
Does not really look a little like a Lufthansa tail though. There is a white outline on the circle in the crash photo; Lufthansa does not have a white outline, theirs is the same color--blue. Besides, I don't recall a DC-10 or MD-11 Lufthansa accident.

Not now, but I believe they did in the past.

Neither PanAm nor KLM ever had such dark blue or large areas of yellow in their livery.
So it's definitely neither of those airlines, whether it's Lufthansa or not.

Either the person maintaining that site is deliberately putting up photos that are unrelated to the accident (which could well mean he's not whom he claims to be) or he's doing so accidentally (which also means he's likely not whom he claims to be, as he'd know where he took them if they were his own and he were there).
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Bobster2
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:52 pm

I have some additional evidence. I found this Lufthansa flight 540 crash picture on Wikipedia, and it's very similar to one of the crash pictures on the Tenerife site. Obviously, the Tenerife site has some pictures that don't belong there.

Lufthansa flight 540:


Compare this to E035.jpg on the Tenerife site:


edit:
Now I'm confused. I'm now watching Seconds from Disaster about the Tenerife crash on The National Geographic Channel and they just showed a picture identical to E035.jpg on the Tenerife site. So who's wrong? Wikipedia?

[Edited 2006-08-17 06:22:26]
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:53 pm

It's clearly Lufthansa, my guess is from the Nairobi accident.

Another interesting thing about that website is that if you read Capt. Bragg's story, allegedly written by him, it is a jumbled mess. Its grammar and sentence structure is so bad, that is it hard to understand some of it. I have heard Bragg speak on TV, and this does not seem to be something that he, or any marginally educated high school graduate, would write.

Also, he refers to the C-131 as the C1-31, more than once. Would a pilot make that mistake, especially one who flew it?

Then to all that, is the fact that photos from other crashes, clearly showing the logos of other airlines, are used in the website as being from the Tenerife accident.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
skgsjulax
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:56 pm

The location of the flag at the top of the vertical stabilizer is correct for a LH plane, but the older LH liveries also had the two-letter aircraft identifier next to (in front of) the flag. Also, the LH DC-10s had the tail engine housing painted blue. In the picture, the piece below the tail looks silver/white.

On the other hand, early LH 747s had the flag forward and the two letters further back on the tail. Really looks like a LH 747 tail.

[Edited 2006-08-17 06:00:56]
Omnium curiositatum explorator
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:04 pm

Since this website www.tenerifecrash.com is a commercial website selling DVDs, I doubt that the real Capt. Bragg would set up such a crass enterprise to profit from the disaster.

This is somebody under the name of SHENANDOAH MEDIA COMPANY, L.L.C.
which, perhaps with Bragg's knowledge, has set up this website, but which obviously, knows nothing about aviation.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
Broocy
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:02 pm

There is no argument. It is definitely the LH 747 crash at Nairobi. You can see the acacia trees and Ngong Hills in the back-ground.

The photos of the burning 747 are the LH one, not from another crash. It is often used as a stock standard image for crashes in the media.
 
planespotting
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:11 pm

A whole big programme about the Tenerife accident was just on the National Geographic Channel...in the "Minutes from Disaster" series. Pretty good stuff!
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
Bobster2
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:24 pm

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 15):
A whole big programme about the Tenerife accident was just on the National Geographic Channel...

But they apparently used a stock photo of the LH crash to represent the Tenerife crash. That blew my little mind. That photo was broadcast by coincidence during the 30-minute editing period for my previous post, so I frantically added a disclaimer.  Smile
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
UK_Dispatcher
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:02 pm

All of the photos in the posts above are definately from the LH B747 crash at NBO.

I know a lot of people think it must be a DC10 or MD11, but that just happens to be where one of the B747's engines ended up in the wreckage, creating an illusion.
 
AMSSFO
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:21 pm

The blue cheatline can be aither PA or LH, but to me, most if not all pics on that site seem to be from the LH Nairobi crash.
Although there might be one that's from a different crash

In this a larger part of front fuselage is still present, and door seem to be facing more upward

while in most other pics including the ones below there is clearly no front fuselage anymore, while the door seems to be facing downward:

 
keego
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:56 pm

There's no 2 ways about it its Lufthansa. you can even make out the German flag at the top of the tail. Looks like a DC10 to me but DeltaRules has a point when he mentions that the "engine" looks to be too far down the tail to be a 3 holer. I also dont recall any LH DC10's ever being lost but dont quote me on that.
 
sk909
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:57 pm

Quoting YEGer (Reply 6):
There is a white outline on the circle in the crash photo

I think you are wrong. The white you see is the reflection of the Sun, making it seem white.
Life's for Living!
 
alphafloor
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:10 pm


This is a Lufthansa B747 and the background has nothing to do with Tenerife.
Whatever
 
Scorpio
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:29 pm

The pictures being from the wrong crash is not the only thing wrong here. If you go to the '747' photo album, the large majority of the cockpit photos are from the A340, while in the rest of the album you can find pictures of 707s, 727s, even ATRs!
 
EMBQA
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:20 pm

Quoting YEGer (Reply 6):
Tail logo does not look like Pan Am or KLM.

Even though we have solved the mystery and the pictures are not from the Pan Am-KLM accident.... neither Pan Am or KLM carried the tail logo you quoted at the time of the accident...both are close, but slightly different.

The actual aircraft involved just months before...
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Photo © Vito Cedrini


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Photo © Stefan Sjögren - Stockholm Arlanda Photography


[Edited 2006-08-17 12:32:40]
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baguy
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:22 pm

The background on the website even claims it to be 'The worst civil aviation disaster in history! I thought that was the JAL 747 accident!

BAguy
 
AMSSFO
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:29 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 23):
Even though we have solved the mystery and the pictures are not from the Pan Am-KLM accident.... neither Pan Am or KLM carried the tail logo you quoted at the time of the accident...

No? Take a look at the pics of the aircraft involved:

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Photo © Howard Chaloner
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Photo © Vito Cedrini



Quoting Baguy (Reply 24):
The background on the website even claims it to be 'The worst civil aviation disaster in history! I thought that was the JAL 747 accident!

It is. The 1985 JAL disaster is the worst single aircraft disaster.
 
keego
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:31 pm

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 25):
Quoting Baguy (Reply 24):
The background on the website even claims it to be 'The worst civil aviation disaster in history! I thought that was the JAL 747 accident!


It is. The 1985 JAL disaster is the worst single aircraft disaster.

This is usually if not always judged on how many fatalities there were!!There were 583 fatalities in Tenerife crash and 520 in the JAL crash in Japan. The only conflict or confusion that comes from this is that there was 2 aircraft involved in the incident in Tenerife. As said above the JAL crash was the worst single aircraft accident and KLM & Pan-Am the worst accident involving aircraft.
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:32 pm

If you go the site, not only are they selling DVDs, but they are selling tours!

What is telling is that, for the price of the tour, which includes hotel accomodation, you can also be introduced to the people involved in the disaster.


6. ARRANGING INTRODUCTIONS to MEDICAL PERSONNEL involved in actual
accident

7. ARRANGING INTRODUCTIONS TO AIRPORT CONTROL TOWER PERSONNEL involved in Accident

8. INTRODUCTION to EMERGENCY EQUIPMENT STAFF involved in Accident

9. INTRODUCTION TO CIVILIAN PERSONNEL involved in Accident



I think what is happening here, is that this guy, whoever he is, made a DVD that included footage with Bragg, then arranged these "tours" with these people above, took photos off the internet from the Nairobi crash, as Tenerife photos were very few, and packaged the whole thing as a website put up by Robert Bragg - the co-pilot.

What an insult and shame.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:36 pm

The piece of crap Co-Pilot from Pan Am, wanted to make a quick buck off of the accident. In addition he asked not one single family of the Pan Am/KLM flights for permission to go forth with the documentary. Relatives of mine who boarded the Pan Am aircraft in Los Angeles - Federico(Fred) and Ida Belluomini, along with two other cousins. None of the four survived. The film he is trying to hawk is nothing but a piece of garbage. He uses in excess pictures and pieces from 5 crashes and provides nothing more than a bloated view to make a few dollars. This is so difficult to talk about time and time again. Why are people so obsessed with the final moments of over 500 people? Looking at this pictures time and time again only can relieve the agony and terror the passengers on both flights went through.

Any yes, to answer the quesiton the photos were from Nairobi and that has been discussed time and time again.
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
jumpseatflyer
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:57 pm

Go to the website, click on "photo gallery" and click on "747." The cockpit shots are clearly from other planes (I see an A340 in there and an ATR of some sort).

The transcript from the F/O was a mess. I could barely get through it.

Clearly a sales pitch, definately a shame.
 
YYZYYT
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 5):
According to Aviation-Safety.net, no LH DC-10s were lost. I'd wager that that tail is off of the '47 lost in Nairobi.



Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 7):
IMO, it looks like the white piece below the tail is a part of the fuselage & not a tail mounted engine. It looks like the white is too far down to be a third engine.

DeltaRules



Quoting Keego (Reply 19):
There's no 2 ways about it its Lufthansa. you can even make out the German flag at the top of the tail. Looks like a DC10 to me but DeltaRules has a point when he mentions that the "engine" looks to be too far down the tail to be a 3 holer. I also dont recall any LH DC10's ever being lost but dont quote me on that

definitely not an LH DC10 - what appears to be the engine is white, whereas all LH DC 10's had their engines painted blue.


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sdwranglers
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:18 am

Out of curiousity, is there anyone who has purchased or viewed the DVD being marketed by Shenandoah Media Company?
 
IFEMaster
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:19 am

I'm calling BS on this website. In addition to all the discussion above about inaccurate pictures, poor grammar etc., I would bet that Bragg probably has nothing to do with "Shenandoah Media Company" and likely wouldn't endorse this website if he knew how poor and blatantly inaccurate it is.

I sent an email off to the address on the website...if I get a reply, I'll post it.

EDIT: Had to post this. He is apparently talking about what happens when you suffer an engine failure...

"in a 747 if you loose an engine you have to descend 8000 feet. And then the airplane will continue right on at the same speed as you were doing at a higher altitude on 4 engines. And, a matter of fact, you don't even tell the passengers typically because they cant see the propellers stopping which in a sense there is no propeller."

 rotfl 

This ain't no airline captain writing...

[Edited 2006-08-17 17:25:37]
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
33Zulu
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:59 am

After 5 years of lurking, skulking, and lingering around A.net on a dang near daily basis, this massive crock made me sign up.

Here's some publicly available 'Google-able' info...

Address of Shenandoah Media Co. Ltd.
10401 Whispering Pine Lane
McGaheysville, VA 22840

...which matches this lady found on both Shen Media's site and on The Library of Virginia's list of professional researchers.

Dorothy A. Boyd-Bragg, Ph.D.
10401 Whispering Pine Lane
McGaheysville, Virginia 22840
Fax 540-289-7210
boydbrda@jmu.edu

Note that her email address on the library's site has an educational domain. JMU for those of you not too familiar with the mid-Atlantic coast of the USA is James Madison University. Uh oh. Gosh, I sure hope she ain't a faculty member or something because a university sure will take a dim view of a lack of intellectual integrity!

Guess what?

Dorothy Ann Boyd Bragg (faculty)
James Madison Center
MOOD 210A
MSC 2001
office phone: +1 540 568 3548
e-mail: boydbrda@jmu.edu

That's pasted right off of JMU's directory page.

Any thoughts?

[Edited 2006-08-17 18:14:58]
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:22 am

what year did LH 747 crash in NBO? What were the fatalities and injuries?
 
lijnden
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:28 am

Plane was D-ABYB, a 747 of Lufthansa that crashed during take off at NBO in 1974.

BTS
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Falcon84
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 25):
No? Take a look at the pics of the aircraft involved:

The tail in the first picture show shows a dark-colored tail, with a lighter logo, so it cannot be the Pan Am Tenrife aircraft. Plus, clearly, the picture in the thread-starter is of an aircraft with a tail-mounted engine. No doubt of that.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
YYZYYT
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:51 am

Also, if you want even more confirmation, compare the cheatline and black radome in the pictures at post 10 to the PA 747 invovled in the crash...


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andrewuber
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:25 am

No disrespect meant here - but whoever put together that photo gallery just randomly threw in aviation crash photos. Like this one for example:

Big version: Width: 640 Height: 432 File size: 49kb


Unless I've missed something, there was no B727 involved in the Tenerife crash. This photo is 100% the right main landing gear from a 727. The canoe, the gear bay, the packs, the two-wheeled bogies, the fat-boy tires, the landing gear door, the flaps . . . . this is absolutely positively from a 727.

What's the deal with that site?

Drew
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BA84
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:52 am

Bravo! to 33Zulu.
Good detective work.
Welcome aboard!
 
33Zulu
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:11 am

Here are some more details I've pulled up about Dorothy Boyd-Bragg. I'm not trying to pull any kind of character assassination here (and not to flatter myself, I'm just some guy posting on a forum...) but Dorothy is the only contact person I can find on this turd-of-a-website.

This is her bio on James Madison University's website.

This is her bio on some little publishing company that has put out histories of area churches and a cookbook.

Personal opinion...
It burns me up that someone is cashing in on other people's tragedy. I can't see how the website's content is benefitting anyone or any cause except the peddler of this DVD. Sensational pictures of burning debris... bodies... these are people's sisters, fathers, sons, daughters, mothers... It's obscene. It doesn't appear that Mr. Bragg or Ms. Boyd-Bragg are taking a completely passive role in this site since the contact addresses seem to match up with Dorothy's other unrelated interests.
 
aussieindc
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting BA84 (Reply 39):
Bravo! to 33Zulu.
Good detective work.
Welcome aboard!

Dito!

Has anyone dared call her on it yet?
 
threepoint
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:31 am

Well done on your super sleuthing 33Zulu. Welcome.

I share your level of amazement that a supposed PhD is behind this info dissemination. I suspect there is a poorly-paid (and equally-educated) third-party writer involved in this arena.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
golftango
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting Alphafloor (Reply 21):

This is a Lufthansa B747 and the background has nothing to do with Tenerife.

You can even see the Lufthansa titles above the cabin door.
 
threepoint
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 42):
I suspect there is a poorly-paid (and equally-educated) third-party writer involved in this arena.



Quoting 33Zulu (Reply 40):
Here are some more details I've pulled up about Dorothy Boyd-Bragg.

As Dorothy purports to be an English graduate from Temple and a professional document editor, I can safely assume my statement (above) is likely the case.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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alberchico
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:03 am

http://www.tenerifecrash.com//gallery/747/pages/3062.htm

take a look at this. This is supposed to a photo section on the 747 but it clearly a Airbus A340 cockpit  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
33Zulu
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 42):
I suspect there is a poorly-paid (and equally-educated) third-party writer involved in this arena.

That certainly seems plausible to me. Complete conjecture on my part, but the look of the site and it's rabid promotion doesn't scream "history professor" to me. Also, what kind of professor can take time to run around or call around Tenerife setting up interviews and booking hotel rooms? Again, just a guess, but I'm betting someone else is involved. It's not hard to imagine Mr. and Ms. Bragg wanting a turnkey web page for the sake of pitching their DVD and somebody slapped this mess together. That said, it's still indefensible and their names are on it.
 
tcfc424
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:37 am

Okay, so she shares a last name with the co-pilot of the Pan-Am aircraft. Has anyone looked to see if she is related? Could it be that she is a divorcee of the co-pilot? A disgruntled family member? It seems that its someone who would want to compromise his character, as these images are falsely being advertised as being from the Tenerife crash...Just an idea, maybe Google can tell me...I'll update.

Mike S. in AUS
 
rampart
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:42 am

Very interesting detective work, everyone. And what a mess of hijacked history!

I can speak as a faculty member at another university: This Boyd-Bragg connection to the website is very suspicious, and I'm darned curious about an explanation. While not impossible, a weird and factually spurious commercial venture would not be consistent with ethical academic practices. Note also from her website that she is a vice president for academic affairs. If this person is indeed associated with the commercial web site, it's probably not illegal (depending on how much time was committed), but it sure looks odd, particularly for someone in a field where historical accuracy is critical, and where honest academic standards make up one's job description.

Many of you have questioned weather Capt. Bragg is a bonafide participant in the website. I might venture that Dorothy Boyd Bragg of Shenandoah productions MAY not be the academic of the same name (an unfortunate coincidence), or that someone has usurped her name for these purposes. (I wouldn't put it past a disgruntled student, for instance.)

But I could be wrong! Private lives of faculty -- more than you want to know!

-Rampart
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Is This Tenerife Wreckage?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:47 am

Interestingly, there's a Dutch site dedicated to the Tenerife crash featuring the same sequence of pictures, produced by some guys for a school project. It even features the same DVD!

I really wondered who copied from who...

Have a look for yourself:

http://www.project-tenerife.com/engels/tenerifecrash1.htm

I might drop them a line...
I scratch my head, therefore I am.

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