KarlB737
Topic Author
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USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:03 am

Courtesy: Philadelphia Business Journal

USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelp.../daily46.html?b=1155528000^1333998

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OK if this subject rings a bell I started a thread on May 10, 2006

It was titled: "USAirways Has Better Earnings-Pilots Want Better"
This was the story that highlighted the thread. There were 48 replies in this thread which is in archives and can't be dredged up except in the way I have done here.

Courtesy: The Business Journal of Phoenix

USAirways Pilots Seek Improved Contract Following Earnings News

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2006/05/08/daily18.html
 
airbazar
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:07 am

No offense but I'd expect a bit more inteligence from a goup of people such as ailine pilots. What do they want to accomplish with this? Take the airline back into ch11?
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:21 am

No, they're asking for some of their money back, the money the company had to steal to get back into the black. They aren't going to drive the company into the ground.

Remember, these "concessions" are usually temporary amendments to a contract, and in the case of DL as well, once the time is up on them, the company better CTAGB, because the payscales will be back where they should have been.

Right on, US pilots...bout time to make some money again.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
HAL
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:58 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
What do they want to accomplish with this? Take the airline back into ch11?

The pilot's unions are not operating in the dark. They have some very highly paid analysts that can look at a company's ledger and know what a reasonable pay scale is. They also are very clear on what the company can afford, and what it can't. They certainly don't want to run it back into bankruptcy.

USAirways posted over a $300 Million profit for the second quarter, yet the pilots are still flying at the lowest concessionary payscale they negotiated during the dark days of Ch. 11. It seems pretty reasonable that if Doug Parker and the rest of the management team is getting hefty bonuses, the employees that did the work for them are entitled to some of that profit too.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
HPRamper
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:09 am

What's really weak about their actions is that they couldn't even wait a couple months to go into action. The airline is starved for aircraft right now, yet the pilots want their money back. What about all the other groups that took pay cuts? Why aren't they protesting?
 
SonOfACaptain
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:58 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
Take the airline back into ch11?

Please, this won't take them near Ch. 11.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
No offense but I'd expect a bit more inteligence from a goup of people such as ailine pilots

Have you not paid attention to the US MEC?  wink 

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
HPLASOps
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:26 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 3):
USAirways posted over a $300 Million profit for the second quarter, yet the pilots are still flying at the lowest concessionary payscale they negotiated during the dark days of Ch. 11. It seems pretty reasonable that if Doug Parker and the rest of the management team is getting hefty bonuses, the employees that did the work for them are entitled to some of that profit too.

I just attended a town hall meeting with Doug and one of the questions frequently brought up was related to the profit and how it's going to be shared amongst the employees. Doug mentioned that the pilots had a clause in their contract that stipulated if the company did engage in a profit sharing program, the pilots' union was to get approximatly 40% of the overall pool. Didn't sound to good to the rest of the company, but that was what was negotiated with that union during US's BK.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
m180up
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:32 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 6):
just attended a town hall meeting with Doug

Hey, I've been hearing about this hall meetings with Doug from some employees I know from reservations, and now from you, he is a pretty open guy as I see it, and I think he is doing his best to run the airline, I hope the airline can stay on the track it is right now, having earnings and expanding to new markets as needed, focusing in the markets it has strenght, he made a lot in HP and is making a lot to improve the new US, at least that is the way I see it, can't confirm it on first hand, but IMO he is a great CEO and doing a lot for the new US:
Werner from SAL
 
HAL
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:33 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 6):
Doug mentioned that the pilots had a clause in their contract that stipulated if the company did engage in a profit sharing program, the pilots' union was to get approximatly 40% of the overall pool.

Don't forget though that both the old US and HP contracts will be disposed of and a new joint contract should be in place sometime next year. It is required by the transition agreement that there be a single contract and single seniority list before the airlines can officially merge. I would guess that the 40% share clause will be long gone by the time any bonuses are paid out. And it would be even worse for morale if just the US pilots got their 40% share while the HP pilots got nothing. Talk about setting up a situation for bitterness!

Oh well, at least I'm not involved anymore, although I do have a lot of friends still there. (I went back to Hawaiian this summer). Good luck to all!

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
HPLASOps
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:57 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 8):
I would guess that the 40% share clause will be long gone by the time any bonuses are paid out.

I believe that was part of the East's contract, and it will have an impact on this year's profits. Regardless of what happens with the combination of the two contracts, that 40% clause will still be in effect for the year's end and this year's profits will be divied up as such. Depending on how quick they negotiate the unified contract will influence how the profit is shared for 2007.

Quoting HAL (Reply 8):
And it would be even worse for morale if just the US pilots got their 40% share while the HP pilots got nothing.

I doubt the HP pilots will get none, but I would assume they're not gonna get that large of a stake. I'm currently in a non-union position, and well, the way these unions are talking about splitting up the pot, I'm thinking I may get a whole $35 at the year's end, when currently, the profit pool would average out to $1,000 per employee.

Quoting HAL (Reply 8):
Talk about setting up a situation for bitterness!

I think the bitterness is already in place.

Quoting M180up (Reply 7):
he made a lot in HP and is making a lot to improve the new US, at least that is the way I see it, can't confirm it on first hand, but IMO he is a great CEO and doing a lot for the new US:

Most employees are content with Doug in charge, and from what I hear, most of the East employees are happy to have Doug as their new CEO. I am pretty confident overall employee morale has improved since the merger.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
VEEREF
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
What do they want to accomplish with this? Take the airline back into ch11?

Insert "Greedy overpaid pilots bring down airline" thread here.........  tapedshut 
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
VEEREF
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:49 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 4):
What about all the other groups that took pay cuts? Why aren't they protesting?

Good question.
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
HPRamper
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:47 am

Now that I think about it, probably because if anyone else put up too much of a fuss, they'd just be outsourced.
 
Go3Team
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:11 am

It's nice to see that when a company has a little bit of money, that the employees feel that it belongs to them. That money would be better off saved for a rainy day. 300 million isn't going to buy a lot of aircraft, nor get very far when it comes to payroll. I don't know how much they get paid, but they should at least be happy to have a job.
Yay Pudding!
 
MastaHanky
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:14 am

Tell them they can call about their money when they can make it through the winter season profitably.
 
WJ
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:06 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 3):
The pilot's unions are not operating in the dark. They have some very highly paid analysts that can look at a company's ledger and know what a reasonable pay scale is. They also are very clear on what the company can afford, and what it can't. They certainly don't want to run it back into bankruptcy.

Yes, just like the analysts working for them at NW, UA, DL and so on and so on. They sure read that one right "$350,000 for a captain? Sure! Why not". that ofcourse had no impact on bankruptcies.

The US captains need to be thankful they have a job at a successful Flag carrier, which was in very dire straits just over a year ago, and are not running cargo in cessna caravans across the Sahara. Can't they just sit down and shut the hell up for once?! Doug Parker is the most talented airline CEO out there today and he will not leave anyone behind, least of all the pilots, who I am sure will get their due soon.

How goddamn greedy can you get??


I hate unions.
146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
 
HPRamper
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:01 pm

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
Doug Parker is the most talented airline CEO out there today

Well maybe not the most talented, but certainly one of the stars of the moment.
 
WJ
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:19 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 16):
Well maybe not the most talented, but certainly one of the stars of the moment.

Lets not start worshiping all of them, there are a few good ones out there but what he has accomplished in his tenure as CEO is nothing short of amazing. Turning HP around from near liquidation and then taking on US, which today is not the only successful airline out there to be sure, but it's the only one that was on the verge of extinction no more than a year ago.
146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
 
HAL
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:22 pm

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
he will not leave anyone behind, least of all the pilots, who I am sure will get their due soon.

How goddamn greedy can you get??

Do you know how many times over the past dozen years the pilots have heard that???????? And where are they now????? Far worse off in pay than they've ever been!

Greedy is one thing. When they've taken over a 60% pay cut in the past few years, it's not surprising they're a little pissed off about it all!

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
They sure read that one right "$350,000 for a captain? Sure! Why not". that ofcourse had no impact on bankruptcies.

It takes two to tango - management didn't have a gun to their head when they signed that contract either.

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
I hate unions.

Fine. Don't come looking for a job here then. And when you get fired after 20 years with nothing to show for it, don't come crying to us saying 'that's not fair'!

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
WJ
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:52 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 18):
And where are they now????? Far worse off in pay than they've ever been!

Which is still far better off from where they would have been had they had no airline to work for.

Quoting HAL (Reply 18):
Greedy is one thing. When they've taken over a 60% pay cut in the past few years, it's not surprising they're a little pissed off about it all!

No, when they could have had a 100% pay cut and be left with no airline. In their situation you say thank you for having a job and you keep quiet until you start seeing the airline string together a few successful quarters. The cost of this merger are tremendous and many of them have not even begun to hit. As I said, they need to sit down and shut up.



Quoting HAL (Reply 18):
It takes two to tango - management didn't have a gun to their head when they signed that contract either.

Treatning to strike and striking were not invented yesterday. Unions used to have a lot more power than they do today and used it quite well in the past. These days its a whole new ballgame in which the lowest bidder wins and if the cost is letting go of your own people and hiring contract replacements so be it. The same rules dont apply anymore and all unions should be well aware of that. You can't go around making threats, someone may just hear you and either start hiring some of the thousands of eager RJ captains flying out there to backfill your mainline spot or maybe just give your route the express guys altogether.

Quoting HAL (Reply 18):
Fine. Don't come looking for a job here then. And when you get fired after 20 years with nothing to show for it, don't come crying to us saying 'that's not fair'!

Life isn't fair, haven't you heard? When I retire I dont expect a red carpet or anyone to come by and thank me every day for the work I did. I also dont expect to be handed out any significant retirement pay, if at all. If I am fortunate enough to make what flight crews made and even with recent cuts still make, I would learn to save and save a lot.
146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
 
COERJ145
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:00 pm

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
Doug Parker is the most talented airline CEO out there today and he will not leave anyone behind, least of all the pilots, who I am sure will get their due soon.

Agreed,
Chainsaw Steenland should take a lesson or two from Parker.

Quoting WJ (Reply 17):
Turning HP around from near liquidation and then taking on US, which today is not the only successful airline out there to be sure, but it's the only one that was on the verge of extinction no more than a year ago.

Wow, HP was close to liquidation? I thought they were fiddling in and out with profits.
 
SonOfACaptain
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:16 pm

Quoting WJ (Reply 19):
Which is still far better off from where they would have been had they had no airline to work for.

Well, how many airlines out there have almost gone under? Shouldn't they be counting their blessings? Heck, shouldn't all pilots be working for free as a way of thanks for these very generous airlines for allowing them to fly such pretty, fast, and big jet airplanes?  sarcastic 

Quoting WJ (Reply 19):
No, when they could have had a 100% pay cut and be left with no airline

Well, half of them did.

Quoting WJ (Reply 19):
In their situation you say thank you for having a job and you keep quiet until you start seeing the airline string together a few successful quarters.

Ah yes, let's all praise the ever so generous US Airways. You are too worthy for them to have pay similiar to the colleagues at other major airlines.  hypnotized 

Oh, and those "few successful quarters" must have already arrived for the management and non-union employee's have already received pay raises.

Quoting WJ (Reply 19):
The cost of this merger are tremendous and many of them have not even begun to hit.

So what is all this savings I have been hearing about from the merger?

Quoting WJ (Reply 19):
As I said, they need to sit down and shut up.

That's what they have been doing for the past 5 years. It is time for them to gain a LITTLE of what they gave up so the airline could survive.

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
SonOfACaptain
Posts: 1695
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:25 pm

Quoting WJ (Reply 17):
and then taking on US

Not discrediting what he did with HP, but I really don't think he has done anything all too special with US. Sure, their fortunes have changed, but it wasn't because of Parker. He hasn't done anything in relation to US that US wasn't going to do. He basically, so far, has just be the morale leader for the East operation, which does have a big effect.

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
WJ
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:56 pm

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 20):
Wow, HP was close to liquidation? I thought they were fiddling in and out with profits.

Yes, right around 9/11. Doug parker took over HP a few days prior and was about to seal up a deal for a significant and vitally needed cash infusion for the airline. Then 9/11 happened and the banks retracted. The fact that all the paperwork was set with business plan in place to turn the airline with that money, he was able to head to Washington and be the first one knocking on the door for the government backed loans. He got that approval before anyone new what hit them and HP was on the right track.

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 21):
Well, how many airlines out there have almost gone under? Shouldn't they be counting their blessings? Heck, shouldn't all pilots be working for free as a way of thanks for these very generous airlines for allowing them to fly such pretty, fast, and big jet airplanes?

SOAC, I am not saying they need to wait forever. A good business should always reward the people who got it there, no doubt. But give them a chance, they just posted a profit... No press statements, no dialogue, right away they come up with picketing. What's next? US pilots going on strike? Is there nothing else in that bag of tricks other than these two worn out actions?

I'm sorry but I find this begger position in which the pilots want to put themselves in a bit disgusting.
146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
 
SonOfACaptain
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:03 pm

Quoting WJ (Reply 23):
No press statements, no dialogue, right away they come up with picketing. What's next? US pilots going on strike?

Eh, don't worry about this. It is simply the MEC doing what they do best. While US pilots do deserve a raise, and I believe they should get one, don't pay attention to the noise makers at ALPA.

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
WJ
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:10 pm

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 24):
Eh, don't worry about this. It is simply the MEC doing what they do best. While US pilots do deserve a raise, and I believe they should get one, don't pay attention to the noise makers at ALPA.

Just justifying their existence I guess...
146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
 
m180up
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:11 pm

Quoting WJ (Reply 23):
SOAC, I am not saying they need to wait forever. A good business should always reward the people who got it there, no doubt. But give them a chance, they just posted a profit...

2 quarters with profit, and $300 millions earnings, but if you put this on the big scheme of things it isn't that much, it won't but many aircraft, or back many pay raises without hurting the airline economy.

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 24):
Eh, don't worry about this. It is simply the MEC doing what they do best. While US pilots do deserve a raise, and I believe they should get one, don't pay attention to the noise makers at ALPA.

I'm sure all employees have taken big pay cuts and a lot have been furloughed (your dad included IIRC?), and the airline should give something back once they start posting profits, but IMHO not yet, they still have a big track in front of them, the merge is not complete.
They will have a bonus at the end of the year because of the earnings, maybe it will not be enough, but wait a couple more of healthy quarters and the airline in a better position and they will have better benefits and wages.
But a raise now will hurt the airline badly.
Just my  twocents 
Werner from SAL
 
VEEREF
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:55 am

RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:12 pm

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
"$350,000 for a captain? Sure! Why not".

Ummm, what airline pilot makes that, and what percentage of pilots does that represent?
Might want to recheck those numbers.
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
saab2000
Posts: 1216
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:25 pm

I work in the US Airways system (though not technically part of US Airways) and am a pilot and make about 10% of this $350,000 figure. I don't think anyone who is an employee of US Airways makes anywhere near that figure.

People can hate the unions but without them there would be no safety, no regulations, no checks and balances.

Those who know me and my positions know that I am as disgusted as anyone at egregious historical abuses of union power. But to simply hate them is ignorant and not realistic. They are nothing more than the pilots fighting for what is appropriate. There should be flexibility and pragmatism on both sides and then all these ludicrous anti-union arguments would be silenced.

If US Airways is making money it should go partly to the people who have made it possible and that includes the pilots who have taken massive cuts. No business is successful without employees.
smrtrthnu
 
VEEREF
Posts: 560
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:42 pm

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
How goddamn greedy can you get??


I hate unions.

Attention please all US airline employees!

WJ from the UK hates unions. He is now in charge.
WJ, what SHOULD an airline employee get paid, in your expert opinion, and where are the numbers to back it up?

Maybe it's time for YOU to take a 60% paycut and walk that line for a bit.

Just "having a job" won't do any good unless it pays the bills. Not everyone can live in cheap areas.
The problem in this country is that there ARE people who are willing to whore themselves out and work for next to nothing and that drags the ENTIRE industry down the crapper.

It's happening at the Regional level as we speak. There are F/O's below the poverty line. But at least they have jobs, right?
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
WJ
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:32 pm

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 29):
WJ from the UK hates unions. He is now in charge.
WJ, what SHOULD an airline employee get paid, in your expert opinion, and where are the numbers to back it up?

The problem you apparantly dont get is not what airline employees should get paid, it's what their market value is. It's a very nice thought to have, to think that the level or responsibility that all flight crews have, along with ground staffs have, should result in all of them making six figure salaries. Are our lives, which are in their hands not worth that much? Of course they do. The issue is that this is not how this industry works. Airline employees are not doctors or lawyers, where paying 100's of dollars an hour to see them is acceptable and if someone charged less, they are probably not as good. The airline industry has set a market value for many of its functions just above or at minimum wage for ground staff, reservations and F/A's and somewhat above it for pilots. As long as someone is willing to do your job for less, your job becomes devalued and if your airline employer believes he can get someone to perform the same quality of work as you and pay them less, why would they pay you more? There are thousands of pilots out there looking for a chance and that number multiplies many times over when looking at the rest of the airline positions. As time goes by, more and more people become qualified to do what you do and that means everyone will get paid less. Not realizing that and believing that everything can go back to the way things "were" is like sticking your head in the sand and hoping this passes you by. It's sad but it's the way this game is played these days.

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 27):
Ummm, what airline pilot makes that, and what percentage of pilots does that represent?
Might want to recheck those numbers.

350,000 is right around what 777 captains at DL and UA were making prior to 9/11. If you read and understood what I was saying, you wouldn't be taking things out of context like that.
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sccutler
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 24):
Eh, don't worry about this. It is simply the MEC doing what they do best. While US pilots do deserve a raise, and I believe they should get one, don't pay attention to the noise makers at ALPA.

Best statement in this thread.

I have a great deal of contempt for the way many unions' leadership attempt to justify their existence by making "over-the-top" demands and fanning the flames while, perhaps, a less-confrontational approach might be best (and this applies to unions in all industries, not just airlines).

Concurrently, though, I have to reluctantly agree that, in many airlines, the complete absence of a union would be a disaster for pilots and passengers, alike.

Whatever else history has shown us, we can certainly learn that a healthy and honorable attitude towards the people who are on the front lines- all of them- is an important element in successful operations. Where that respect exists as a matter of corporate culture- Southwest being the shining example of this approach- the presence of the union is no impediment to good relations and mutually-beneficial contract negotiations.

But, when you have a company where the big cheeses think their dukey don't stink, and that the folks who do the real work are nothing more than expendable drones, fungble assets- well, then, expecially in a field such as aviation, where the consequences of poor choices can be instantaneous and tragic, you may be most grateful that a union exists and that the modest aggregation of power they create exists.

I'm no lover of unions, but I can scarcely ignore human nature and history's lessons, either.

---

Now. All that said, it is certainly premature for US' MEC to be calling for informational picketing, especially at a time when the airline's financial position is so precarious (balance sheet, folks, look at the balance sheet).
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
saab2000
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:47 pm

WJ,

If market economics dictate salaries, why should labor NOT stick it to the companies when there is a labor shortage?

As a pilot, I can only speak from that perspective. There are times when there is a pilot shortage. There are not 'thousands of pilots' out there at this time and in some parts of the world there is a fairly significant shortage. That will happen in the United States as well.

If this is truly just a free market thing, the next time there is a shortage of qualified pilot labor, the pilots should just strike until they get what they want. After all, that is what management has done to a number of US companies - squeeze labor knowing that there is nothing labor can do in return. Should the pilots not squeeze management next time they can?

Of course, I don't necessarily believe this is the right way, but based on pure economic laws of supply and demand, that is how it would be.

Cool heads, flexibility and pragmatism on both sides would go a long way to solving the animosity that exists.
smrtrthnu
 
WJ
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:14 am

RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 32):
Cool heads, flexibility and pragmatism on both sides would go a long way to solving the animosity that exists.

I wish everyone would share that approach but they dont. The companies have become suspecious and the work groups defensive (I am generalizing, it's not this way everywhere). Your free market evaluations is pretty much correct. There are many pilots out there, working for regionals or the super LCC's in Europe that would love a chance to go work at BA, VS, UA, AA and so on. Some areas in the world have shortage but it's deffinitly not where the money is yet but this is changing. Many pilots are headed out to work in the middle east and SE asia where their experience and skill holds a much higher value than it does at home.

The fact is that when there was a shortage, is when airlines did have to fold to demands and when the opposite occured, it was the pilot unions that had to make the conceccions.

I'll say it again, that this has nothing to do with the importance or the responsibility of the position. In that regard it is priceless. It is only the fact that if there are many who are willing to do the same job for less, is what drives down the market value for these positions.
146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
 
VEEREF
Posts: 560
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting WJ (Reply 30):
There are thousands of pilots out there looking for a chance and that number multiplies many times over when looking at the rest of the airline positions. As time goes by, more and more people become qualified to do what you do and that means everyone will get paid less. Not realizing that and believing that everything can go back to the way things "were" is like sticking your head in the sand and hoping this passes you by. It's sad but it's the way this game is played these days.

You are correct in that there are thousands of pilots out there, but out of those not all are cutout for airline flying. I have 7 years of training and checking airline pilots to back this up.
The "value" of an airline pilot doesn't change based on the financial condition of the airline.
I'm pretty sure the USAirways pilot group isn't asking for 350k, but as long as airline managers keep paying themselves fat bonuses while the ALL labor groups continue to carry the load then I would support them 100%.

In fact it's time for ALL airline labor groups to GROW A PAIR and take this industry back and show them you can't make your employees subsidize a product sold below cost.

And yes I did read your post again and may have taken it out of context.

Fly safe.
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
No offense but I'd expect a bit more inteligence from a goup of people such as ailine pilots. What do they want to accomplish with this? Take the airline back into ch11?



Quoting HAL (Reply 3):
It seems pretty reasonable that if Doug Parker and the rest of the management team is getting hefty bonuses, the employees that did the work for them are entitled to some of that profit too.

Okay... Given that US is finally back in black again, firmly at that, I guess it IS time that the pilots, F/As, mechanics, etc get some of their pay back... US is, without a doubt, a very healthy carrier now under new management and new routes and everything. Even with higher salaries, US should continue to prosper...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
HPRamper
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:53 am

Only pilots have that kind of leverage. If rampers and mechs "grow a pair" they would simply be outsourced a la NW and their mechs.

As for management "giving themselves" fat bonuses. The bonuses are actually given by the board of directors. The management doesn't vote on it like Congress does. The Board of Directors award bonuses based on merit. If the airline crosses point X of profitability, the Board gives manager Y a fat bonus.

These bonuses sound huge, but if you took all the money and split it up among the employees, they'd each only get what, ten, twenty bucks tops. Woo-hoo. Personally I'd say keep my twenty bucks and put it toward a new airplane. We need those more than I need my miniscule bonus.
 
VEEREF
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:57 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 36):
Only pilots have that kind of leverage. If rampers and mechs "grow a pair" they would simply be outsourced a la NW and their mechs

I left out part of that thought. What I should have said was that other employee groups should stand behind each other. I.E. If the rampers walked, the pilots, F/A's,res etc should walk with them. There wouldn't be any way to outsource all of those positions in time to save the company.
A somewhat simplistic and utopian idea, but drastic times.........
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3454
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:12 pm

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 21):
Well, how many airlines out there have almost gone under? Shouldn't they be counting their blessings? Heck, shouldn't all pilots be working for free as a way of thanks for these very generous airlines for allowing them to fly such pretty, fast, and big jet airplanes?  

Quite well said SOAC!  checkmark 

There is a place for pilots like that...the scab carriers like GoJet and Freedom Air (Mesa).

And even the carriers where the pilots feel they should pay the AIRLINE for the privilege to fly heavy metal (Gulfstream)!

And they can stay there. Please.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
WJ
Posts: 299
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:13 pm

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 34):
In fact it's time for ALL airline labor groups to GROW A PAIR and take this industry back and show them you can't make your employees subsidize a product sold below cost.

Grow a pair like the NW Mechanics? Or Alaska Rampers? or a few other airline Reservations agents? Maybe Eastern's mechanics need to get off their butts and start acting?

The pilots are in a unique situation due to the skill level involved in their work but you can't group ALL the labor groups together on this. Times have changed and they do not have that power. Everyone is replaceable.
146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
 
HPRamper
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:27 pm

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 37):
I left out part of that thought. What I should have said was that other employee groups should stand behind each other. I.E. If the rampers walked, the pilots, F/A's,res etc should walk with them. There wouldn't be any way to outsource all of those positions in time to save the company.
A somewhat simplistic and utopian idea, but drastic times.........

I don't see it happening unless all airline employees are members of the same union. Call it the IAEU or something (International Airline Employees Union). But no, we have multiple unions that try to represent little chunks of the industry and would never consolidate because they are run like businesses, unwilling to give up market share. The IAM is ridiculous like this. They cover one airline's rampers only, another's res agents only, another's CSA's only, another's mechanics only etc.

I do like your idea and I was hoping to see something like this with AS. Unfortunately, the pilot's association is gutless when it comes to such things (or worse, indifferent). Airlines are too compartmentalized as far as employee groups are concerned.
 
VEEREF
Posts: 560
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:15 pm

Quoting WJ (Reply 39):
Grow a pair like the NW Mechanics? Or Alaska Rampers? or a few other airline Reservations agents? Maybe Eastern's mechanics need to get off their butts and start acting?

The pilots are in a unique situation due to the skill level involved in their work but you can't group ALL the labor groups together on this. Times have changed and they do not have that power. Everyone is replaceable.

Read reply #37
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
swissy
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:06 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 3):
The pilot's unions are not operating in the dark. They have some very highly paid analysts that can look at a company's ledger and know what a reasonable pay scale is. They also are very clear on what the company can afford, and what it can't. They certainly don't want to run it back into bankruptcy.

 checkmark 

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 28):
If US Airways is making money it should go partly to the people who have made it possible and that includes the pilots who have taken massive cuts. No business is successful without employees.

 checkmark   checkmark 

While I very much dislike Unions I respect them as a part of the industry we are working in, yes they posted a good profit and it would not have been possible without all these employees concessions I still think it is to early to dig in and give it out or perhaps a % rolled back in to a employee share pot.

I hope the dialog will not turn sour and US/HP will be able to keep on posting profits so that "WE" (passenger) have a choice to fly them and the employees get paid what they deserve..........

Cheers,
 
saab2000
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:37 pm

I agree that a common sense approach is needed. To give straight back all the money to the employees is probably not the answer. After all, investment is needed.

The new CEO seems to be a winner and at least talks a good game. Far less abrasive and greedy looking than some of his industry counterparts and seems to be in it for the success of the airline, not just to show his business school buddies how badly he can screw the workforce. The so-called 'leaders' of NWA could learn a thing or two from Doug Parker.

With that said, hard work and huge sacrifice have played a large role in the survival of US Airways and some acknowledgement of that is needed.
smrtrthnu
 
supa7E7
Posts: 1360
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 32):
There are times when there is a pilot shortage. There are not 'thousands of pilots' out there at this time and in some parts of the world there is a fairly significant shortage. That will happen in the United States as well.



Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 32):
If this is truly just a free market thing, the next time there is a shortage of qualified pilot labor, the pilots should just strike until they get what they want. After all, that is what management has done to a number of US companies - squeeze labor knowing that there is nothing labor can do in return. Should the pilots not squeeze management next time they can?

You are confusing the normal labor market consisting of individuals with the effects of a total strike. On an individual basis, yes, it's your right to walk away if your company does not pay you well. If they can't replace you, that means you probably got a better job somewhere else, since you were underpaid. That's on an individual basis _only_.

But labor strikes have nothing to do with the labor market of individuals. A labor strike is a battle between 2 corporations. One corporation is the company, the other is the labor union, which the workers own. Neither corporation is better than the other; both are legal. But morally speaking I prefer the main corporation and not the parasite.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15326
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:09 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 1):
No offense but I'd expect a bit more inteligence from a goup of people such as ailine pilots.

I don't. It's par for the course. Airllines should require a one semester course in Economics 101 at the local community college for all employee groups that are unionized or have the potential to be unionized.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
coa747
Posts: 380
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:33 am

As I recall the old US Airways meaning the east side had among the highest labor costs in the industry and you saw where that got them. The decision is do you want to have a job and work for an airline that is continuing to solidify its financial position and increase profits. Or do you want to demand a large sum of money now and fight the airline which saved your but from liquidation. Seems to me if the old US Airways pilots start this kind of talk they will quickly find the don't have the support from the west or from any of the other unions and their bargining power will quickly evaporate.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15326
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 35):
Given that US is finally back in black again, firmly at that, I guess it IS time that the pilots, F/As, mechanics, etc get some of their pay back...

It's been "in the black" for what, two quarters? Labor unions need to be beaten over the heads with years and years of "in the red" to finally get their head out of their collective arse to make concessions or changes, but two quarters of profit and the unions are convinced the turn around is complete and the airline can afford pay increases forever and ever, amen? They are either complete idiots or PR-grenade throwing jerks. This is why I have zero respect for unions these days. One day unions will realize that THEY ARE THE COMPANY, and working against the company is working against themselves. Either that or they'll die out. Right now it looks like unions are insistent on the latter.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
AA767400
Posts: 1892
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 10):
Insert "Greedy overpaid pilots bring down airline" thread here.........

And down the road there are the NW "greedy" Flight Attendants right? They just want their share, but I guess airline employees should not be making anything. (This is not directed at you VEEREF) but the general opinion on here about airline employees.

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 29):
WJ from the UK hates unions. He is now in charge.
WJ, what SHOULD an airline employee get paid, in your expert opinion, and where are the numbers to back it up?

I guess he expects them to make minimum wage, and still be able to smile while doing so. Guess what? They are not all going to college and using this job as a temporary gig.

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 29):
Maybe it's time for YOU to take a 60% pay cut and walk that line for a bit.

My friend do you think they get it? It is so easy to make assumptions about others.

People like WJ assume that airline groups are overpaid, and spoiled. What he does not realize is that those days are gone.
"The low fares airline."
 
saab2000
Posts: 1216
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RE: USAirways Pilots To Conduct Informal Picket At PHL

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:49 am

SUPA7E7,

I was speaking hypothetically. Of course, I don't believe that labor should 'walk' unless that is the last viable option. And even then it is not a good option because strikes generally produce only losers.

But I tend to side with labor because I have seen the indignity that is used against labor. Witness NWA and their so-called 'management'.

I understand the economics of this business and so do the overwhelming majority of my colleagues. Imbalance of any sort can destroy a business.

MaverickM11,

We pilots are not a bunch of mindless, brainless knuckledraggers and for the most part do understand the needs of the business. We also know that we, along with all the labor groups, are a part of the machinery that is a business. We have lawyers and managers and other professions among our ranks. My former simulator partner has an MBA in airline management. He is also a union member.

None of us wants to kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
smrtrthnu