rootsair
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KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:02 pm

Hi folks.

KLM has had fokeers 100s and 70s for a while now. Is there any plan for them to be retired anytime soon? Since Fokker has gone bankrupt for as while I just wondered how KL(and other fokker operating a/c) will do once there are not enough spare parts for maintainance.
I would guess a logical replacement could be a mix of $E170's and E190's but then again KLM could consider another alternative.

Regards BM
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
AMSSFO
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:03 pm

Fokker may not build any aircraft anymore, but support is still provided by Stork Fokker Services: http://www.fokkerservices.com/

KLM will continue to fly their Fokkers for a pretty long time. There's nothing that suits KLM to replace it with.
 
steph001
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:15 pm

I dont' think that the Fokkers will go very soon. There are lots of low cost operators in Germany (AB, Germania, DI) that are extensively using Fokkers (70s and 100s). Airlines seem to be content with the F70 and F100, as for me, I had several flights on a KL F70 and found it to be a very enjoyable aircraft.
 
MH017
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:28 pm

Although KLM is looking at other aircraft at present, the Fokkers will remain in the KLC fleet for another 4-5 years, in fact, there are rumours, KLC will even extend their numbers by receiving more 70's and 100's ex Regional/Air France...
don't throw away tomorrow !
 
AMSSFO
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:45 pm

Quoting MH017 (Reply 3):
there are rumours, KLC will even extend their numbers by receiving more 70's and 100's ex Regional/Air France.

However, one Regional F100 and 5 F70 are currently offered for sale by mid-2007.
 
Glareskin
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:15 pm

And it is mainly KLM that keeps the stories of a Fokker resurrection by the name of REKKOF alive....
IMO it would be better to phase out the Fokkers and replace them by the comfortable Embraer jets.  twocents 
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
CRJ900
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:21 pm

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 4):
5 F70 are currently offered for sale by mid-2007.

They're selling them? Didn't they go all the way to Indonesia to buy Merpati's F70s? Perhaps they should give Sukhoi a call, they're looking for buyers for their RRJ or SuperJet 100...
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
MH017
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:50 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 6):
Perhaps they should give Sukhoi a call, they're looking for buyers for their RRJ or SuperJet 100...

Apart from looking at the Embraer- and Bombardier products, this one, certainly, is also looked at !!!
don't throw away tomorrow !
 
TheSonntag
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:51 pm

And one thing is for sure, the F70 is a nice, small, powerful aircraft... I would take it over a CRJ anytime...
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:01 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 6):
Didn't they go all the way to Indonesia to buy Merpati's F70s?

KLM took over a couple of F100s from Indonesia's Pelita Air Services. I don't think there are any former Merpati frames in the KLC fleet.
 
petertenthije
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:50 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 9):
KLM took over a couple of F100s from Indonesia's Pelita Air Services. I don't think there are any former Merpati frames in the KLC fleet.

KLC also took Merpati F70s. For instance, PH-KZN is the former PK-PFE. And I am fairly certain there are more Merpati F70s in the KLC fleet.
Attamottamotta!
 
JRadier
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 10):
And I am fairly certain there are more Merpati F70s in the KLC fleet.

Acording to JPfleets there is only 1 with an ex PK-*** reg in WA's fleet.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
AMSSFO
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 6):
They're selling them? Didn't they go all the way to Indonesia to buy Merpati's F70s?



Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 10):
KLC also took Merpati F70s. For instance, PH-KZN is the former PK-PFE. And I am fairly certain there are more Merpati F70s in the KLC fleet.



Quoting JRadier (Reply 11):
Acording to JPfleets there is only 1 with an ex PK-*** reg in WA's fleet.

WA never took any Merpati F70's; Merpati never had F70 it was Pelita's only F70 that went to WA and was indeed registered PH-KZN. WA got their F70 from all over the world, including former OS, BD, MA, Avianova and Silkair aircraft. Seven were delivered new directly from Fokker to WA.


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BA777
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:56 am

A very good question from rootsair, they did get a good few from the old KLMuk and beyond before it all merged into one, I guess the AMS spotters get a bit bored of them like the BA 319s here at LHR, so chances are they'll be around for a while.

Henry
 
MH017
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:23 am

Henry,

see reply 3 ... these Fokkers have far better luggage-holds, volume-wise, than the new Bombardier and Embraer products, that's one of the reasons to keep them also; don't forget they're used as feeders into KLM long-haul flights, so need the 'big' luggage capacity...don't know about this feature when it comes to the Sukhoi product, though ...

BA A319's are boring also at AMS, not just LHR  Big grin
don't throw away tomorrow !
 
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airkas1
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):

 rotfl   rotfl 
Airliners.net Crew - Photo Screener
 
rootsair
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:11 am

Told you I'd start this topic off!
Can't believe its one of the most viwed ones !
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MCOflyer
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:24 am

I would hope E170's are going to replace them?

MCOflyer
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steph001
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:31 am

The E170 is certainly more economic, but I like the F70 too. I flew KL F70 between FRA and AMS several times, the planes were very clean and quiet, even in the back (hello MadDog Wink, both planes were build during the 80's, isn't it?). I have also been on the AZ's E170 on FRA-MXP-FRA. The plane was very new at that time and the legroom was more than decent (I'm about 1m85), but from the point of view of passenger comfort the two planes were similar. I hope that the F70 and will stay for a while. Although I have seen some threads on this forum regarding the fact that the F70 is unreliable and has a lot of technical issues, I didn't experience any of them.
 
turkee
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:56 am

(first time poster, long time listener  Wink)

I haven't had any experience with the F70, but the F100s are a beautiful aircraft. Availability of maintenance and spares aside, I hope they continue their service for a long, long time.

Here in Western Australia, Skywest Airlines (XR - not the same SkyWest in the USA) operates a fleet of F100s (and F50s) to directly compete with the QF regional off-shoot, QantasLink, with their B717-200s.

From a passenger point of view, the F100s here have an absolutely massive seat pitch (every seat feels like you're sitting in an exit row) and, unless you're unlucky enough to be sitting in the last 2 rows, you have an outstanding ride - pretty quiet.

From an airline point of view, they out-perform the B717 in our regional environment. Quite often we have to offload pax/cargo from the B717 due to the temperature, so much so that it limits the usual 117 seater to 86 seats (!) - I've never ever seen this issue with the F100 - and similarly I've never seen cargo offloaded from an F100 due to MTOW being reached. These aircraft are just fantastic.
 
moek2000
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:38 am

I flew KLM F70 and F100 this summer from STR to AMS and they both seemed to be in great shape both interior and exterior. (Maybe the interiors were remodeled within the past couple of years?) I don't see any reason to get rid of them. On the other hand, Air France (Regional) needs to get rid of their F100's, as they seemed to be in bad shape.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 8):
And one thing is for sure, the F70 is a nice, small, powerful aircraft... I would take it over a CRJ anytime...

Yes, I would rather fly the F70 over any CRJ on any given day.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:53 am

A nice fleet of EMB 170's and 190 will do.

MCOflyer
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A388
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:57 am

Quoting Turkee (Reply 19):
- I've never ever seen this issue with the F100 - and similarly I've never seen cargo offloaded from an F100 due to MTOW being reached. These aircraft are just fantastic.

Ive heard similar stories about the Fokker 100/70. Apparently these aircraft are very solid aircraft capable of withstanding a lot compared to other aircraft in its range. I once saw a documentary about the Fokker 100 operated in the U.S. by AA and US and the pilots they interviewed were very happy with the aircraft's handling capabilities and cockpit presentation.

A388
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:47 pm

The large Fokker fleet seems to be suiting KLC just fine, and passengers are generally satisfied with the cabin interior, and even prefer the Fokkers over KLM's older mainline B733s and B734s which are getting long in the tooth. However, the KLC Fokker fleet seems to be relatively more prone to technical problems and also seems to have problems dealing with weather issues - although that might be more of an issue for the Fk50s - and as such the KLC on time performance figures and cancellation rates are not exactly brilliant.
 
jwenting
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:38 pm

Yup. Flew a 734 to BHX last month, an F70 back.
After getting another seat (broken spring in the seatback of the one I got initially) it was a very pleasant flight. More comfy than the 737, and surprisingly more legroom too.
Overhead bins a bit small, but there's a coatroom in front for storing larger bags.
I wish I were flying
 
PietPiloot
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:34 pm

As I am just starting to fly the Fokker 70/100 for Cityhopper I can only say it is a wonderfull aircraft to fly. It is still a modern aircraft even after about 15-20 years of service.

The technical problems we have on the fleet are mainly due to the fact that we operate a lot of different configurations, hence we need a lot of different spare parts.

I don't see the Fokkers leave the fleet anytime soon. There might be some aircraft swapping, some will leave the fleet and replaced by others. But for now, there is no suitable replacement for them.

Remco
 
levent
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:48 pm

Quoting Turkee (Reply 19):
I've never ever seen this issue with the F100 - and similarly I've never seen cargo offloaded from an F100 due to MTOW being reached. These aircraft are just fantastic.

The same goes for the Fokker 50 compared to the Dash 8, for example. Air Nostrum is often limited on longer flights operated by the Dash 8-Q315 (for example BCN-Valladolid or BCN-Turin) but the Fokker 50 hardly ever caused any problems - fully loaded, fully fueled, she just kept going.
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:51 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 17):
I would hope E170's are going to replace them?



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 21):
A nice fleet of EMB 170's and 190 will do.

Agree and this will happen in a matter of time.

Rgs,
 
MH017
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:32 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 23):
the KLC Fokker fleet seems to be relatively more prone to technical problems

Do not forget, there's only 1 planned 'spare' F70 for 20 operating per day, so chances for delays and/or cancellations are high...also, the 733/734 fleet has had their technicals issues also lately !!! ...

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 24):
More comfy than the 737, and surprisingly more legroom too.

According the latest edition of 'Zakenreis magazine' seat pitch on 737 Economy is 30"-31", while F70 is 32" and F100 is 33"-34", depending on the configuration...

Quoting PietPiloot (Reply 25):
The technical problems we have on the fleet are mainly due to the fact that we operate a lot of different configurations, hence we need a lot of different spare parts.

Exactly, Remco, waiting for 'spare parts' is a main issue here, not so much the braking down of aircraft; These Fokkers are in regular A/B/C-checks and cannot be released just because of lack of these spare-parts...
don't throw away tomorrow !
 
aviopic
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:01 pm

Quoting MH017 (Reply 28):
Exactly, Remco, waiting for 'spare parts' is a main issue here, not so much the braking down of aircraft; These Fokkers are in regular A/B/C-checks and cannot be released just because of lack of these spare-parts...

That's KL policy, we are 30 yards away with spare parts but still it takes you guys 3 weeks to get one part across the fence. Big grin
Or let me wait till 02:00 in the morning just to cancel your AOG call.
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DONS
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 29):
That's KL policy, we are 30 yards away with spare parts but still it takes you guys 3 weeks to get one part across the fence.
Or let me wait till 02:00 in the morning just to cancel your AOG call.

Aviopic, Service of Fokker Services is poor, they better should call it just Fokker and leave out the word service. Items on stock at Fokker can take up to +4 hours and longer before they can be collected, not what I call a AOG service. And parts that still need to be certified by the certifying staff can take sometimes up to a day and longer. And if there is no stock at Fokker, you better pray for the spare parts brokers, than you really see where Fokker fails to deliver a AOG service. Policy of KL (WA & Martinair) is to store any part that caused a long AOG, as they don't want to wait that long the next time.
 
OHLHD
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:22 am

As long as there are NW´s DC 9, there will be KLM´s Fokkers! Big grin
 
sk601
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 31):
As long as there are NW´s DC 9

I don't know if this has been asked before on the forum, but when will NW....  faint   innocent   scratchchin   silly 
 
planemaker
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting PietPiloot (Reply 25):
I can only say it is a wonderfull aircraft to fly. It is still a modern aircraft even after about 15-20 years of service.

Yes, and imagine if BBD had gone ahead and bought Fokker... not only would there be NO CRJ700 but there also would probably have been the F130! Oh, well, at least a pleasant dream!

Quoting MH017 (Reply 14):
these Fokkers have far better luggage-holds, volume-wise, than the new Bombardier and Embraer products, that's one of the reasons to keep them also;

You might want to check that out vs the E195.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
steph001
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 31):
As long as there are NW´s DC 9, there will be KLM´s Fokkers!

KL's Fokkers will be all scrapped when NW will retire its last DC9 Smile
 
bnamaxx
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting Steph001 (Reply 34):
KL's Fokkers will be all scrapped when NW will retire its last DC9

Wow. 20 more years huh?
 
planemanofnz
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:28 pm

What routes do the KLM Fokker 70/100's fly?
 
MH017
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:03 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 36):
What routes do the KLM Fokker 70/100's fly?

Could be any European KLM route, from Amsterdam/NL as far West as Bristol/GB to as far East as Tallinn/EE and as far North as Trondheim/NO and as far South as Bologna/IT...

Better check www.klm.com for exact routings...
don't throw away tomorrow !
 
PietPiloot
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:15 pm

We fly these routes, some routes are also flown with B737 aircraft:

Amsterdam to/from:

Aberdeen
Berlin
Billund
Birmingham
Bologna
Bordaux
Bremen
Bristol
Brussels
Budapest
Cardiff
Copenhagen
Dusseldorf
Edinburgh
Frankfurt
Geneve
Glasgow
Gothenborg
Hamburg
Hannover
Humberside
Kristiansand
Leeds
Lyon
Manchester
Marseille
Munich
Newcastle
Nice
Norwich
Nuremberg
Prague
Riga
Sandefjord
Stuttgart
Tallinn
Teesside
Toulouse
Trondheim
Venice
Vienna
Zurich

Remco
 
OHLHD
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:12 pm

Quoting PietPiloot (Reply 38):
Amsterdam to/from:

Helsinki  Smile
 
PietPiloot
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:53 pm

Although I would like to fly to Helsinki, I'm pretty sure we don't send the Fokkers to Helsinki. At least not on a regular basis.

Remco
 
keesje
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:40 pm

I think there are few replacements for a 90-120 seat <2000nm segment).

The Fokker F70/F100 (OEW: 24,541kg (54,103lb)) has to be replaced by something substantially more efficient. It's not available yet.

http://www.kaktusdigital.com/images/large/klm_lrj_02.jpg
http://www.kaktusdigital.com/3d.html
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ptrjong
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:57 pm

Quoting MH017 (Reply 37):
Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 36):
What routes do the KLM Fokker 70/100's fly?

Could be any European KLM route, from Amsterdam/NL as far West as Bristol/GB to as far East as Tallinn/EE and as far North as Trondheim/NO and as far South as Bologna/IT...

If they fly on just any KL European routes, why isn't Cityhopper merged into the main KLM fleet? Why does Cityhopper exist as a separate entity?

Peter
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
MH017
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:02 pm

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 42):
If they fly on just any KL European routes, why isn't Cityhopper merged into the main KLM fleet? Why does Cityhopper exist as a separate entity?

Cost structure is way lower than 'mainline' KLM, therefore, 'thin' routes are better of, financially, to be operated by cheaper KLC.

(Note: pay of cockpit- and cabincrews are lower and, also, WRR is different)
don't throw away tomorrow !
 
PietPiloot
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:04 pm

Quoting MH017 (Reply 43):
(Note: pay of cockpit- and cabincrews are lower and, also, WRR is different)

Small correction: The KLM and KLC group of pilots is one entity. For example, I started as a second officer on the B747-400 and now I started as a first officer on the Fokker 70/100. Next step is probably back to mainline KLM again. Only the former KLM UK pilots are working under a different contract (not for long anymore).

Remco
 
OHLHD
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting PietPiloot (Reply 40):
Although I would like to fly to Helsinki, I'm pretty sure we don't send the Fokkers to Helsinki. At least not on a regular basis.

Really, that must have been an exeption than.


edit: just checked and yes, only 737 to HEL on regular basis  Smile
 
gkirk
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting PietPiloot (Reply 38):
Teesside

Durham Tees Valley actually  Silly
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Aleksandar
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
KLM has had fokeers 100s and 70s for a while now. Is there any plan for them to be retired anytime soon?

Actually, I just saw one of their Fokker 70s in Budapest last week (PH-KZD) and it was quite a surprise to see how KLM downgraded its Budapest service from 734s and 738s three years ago to only F70 now, but this plane helps them to keep this service after all.

It seems that many airlines re-discovered Fokker 70/100 lately and all of them who use those planes are very happy with them. It also applies to Hungarian flag carrier Malev.

Quoting PietPiloot (Reply 38):
We fly these routes, some routes are also flown with B737 aircraft:

I suppose KLM is using only smaller Fokker 70s to Budapest as a result of strong competition of LCCs.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
Joost
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 47):
it was quite a surprise to see how KLM downgraded its Budapest service from 734s and 738s three years ago to only F70 now

Didn't they shift some of there flights to Malev, who still flies 737s? Competition is indeed strong with SkyEurope establishing well in the market and now also Wizzair, altough they will withdraw from AMS-BUD and start EIN-BUD.

Even more off-topic: does anyone know if the KLM-Malev cooperation will continue now Malev is busy becoming a oneworld member?
 
Aleksandar
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RE: KLM Fokker 70's And 100's Till When?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 48):
does anyone know if the KLM-Malev cooperation will continue now Malev is busy becoming a oneworld member?

I supppose it won't matter that much.
Speaking of KLM's BUD service, there is one more observation. While KLM reduced this service in both frequencies and capacity, Air France is doing much better.
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