ltbewr
Posts: 12424
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:49 am

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv..._article_id=401419&in_page_id=1770
The above article (I know, from one for extremely sensationalist tabloids of the UK market) discusses where some pax on a Aug. 19th Monarch Flight # 613 to depart at 3 am from Malanga to Manchester was delayed as some pax demanded 2 'asian looking' men, who they thought were speaking Arabic be taken off the aircraft. To quell the growing issue, the men were taken off the flight by airport security at the pilot's request. Apparently some people, in part due to their own fears and for or from their children were behind this blatant case of discriminatory behavior. The men had gone through security procedures twice at the airport, but the pax effectively did their own profiling and caused this men to be removed.

The article also notes other incidents of passengers doing their own profiling against 'Islamic' looking men and women, their fears triggered by the recent plot disclosures. It could also mean more incidents and trouble for airlines and other pax in the UK and elsewhere where a few pax force their fears and discrimination upon the airlines despite through security checks.
 
warreng24
Posts: 573
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:38 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:06 am

Well according to the article... they men were acting suspicious. I applaud the passengers being so "aware" of the situation.

I only wish that they would have been as "aware" if it was two anglo-saxon's wearing heavy leather jackets despite of the warm weather.
 
CPDC10-30
Posts: 4681
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 4:30 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:50 am

Its a tough call. I had a situation where someone had a "prohibited" substance recently...the guy next to me on a flight YYZ-MAN last week took out a tube of hand cream and started applying it to his hands. Not so great for YYZ airport security....  no 

Anyways, you can bet I was watching him like a hawk but I didn't want to make a fuss over it unnecessarily and cause a diversion or anything stupid. But you can bet I would have got the f/a's attention if he brought the tube to the lav or started doing anything unusual with it. But it turns out he was just moisturizing his hands and YYZ airport secuirty dropped the ball big time. I asked him about it an he seemed generally ignorant - he had been on holidays for three weeks and hadn't followed the news.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 4015
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:02 am

I see no problem with this. As a matter of fact, the TSA should profile. We're looking for Islamic terrorists here. It's not being racist to say that the terrorists fit the the profile of a middle-eastern looking person. That said, you can't target Muslims for no reason. But if pax saw something unusual, it's worth taking a look at.

" But you can bet I would have got the f/a's attention if he brought the tube to the lav or started doing anything unusual with it."

Well that's quite absurd. If he brought the handcream to the bathroom and you alerted the crew, they'd probably have a much higher chance of discovering him doing something lude than trying to blow up the plane.

I think we have all gotten out of control with this liquid thing. Screeners are so busy looking for the forbidden toothpaste that a bomb is gonna flow right past them.

PJ
 
CPDC10-30
Posts: 4681
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 4:30 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Fl

Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:05 am

Quoting Jfklganyc (Reply 3):
Well that's quite absurd. If he brought the handcream to the bathroom and you alerted the crew, they'd probably have a much higher chance of discovering him doing something lude than trying to blow up the plane.

That is probably true, but nonetheless it is a banned substance that should have been caught by the security screeners. Whats the point of banning it if they can't even screen something this obvious.

[Edited 2006-08-20 04:06:29]
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:08 am

Quoting Jfklganyc (Reply 3):
I see no problem with this. As a matter of fact, the TSA should profile. We're looking for Islamic terrorists here. It's not being racist to say that the terrorists fit the the profile of a middle-eastern looking person. That said, you can't target Muslims for no reason. But if pax saw something unusual, it's worth taking a look at.

Before we all make this really political, let's not all act like lemmings.

Remember: The terrorist Timothy McVeigh was associated with fundamental Christian groups. The Israeli fellow who shot up the Muslim prayer group at a disputed site in the 90s was associated with a Jewish fundamental group.

The key word to remember in all this is fundamental, or fundamentalism: the inability to see the other p.o.v. My way or the highway thinking.

It's not religion and/or ethnicity that's the problem, it's fundamentalism.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:42 pm

they were "arabs"...so they could be "bombers"...makes me want to puke.. yuck ...

did these men do anything that was illegal or wrong? what the 'ell is "suspicious"??

so, this is what it comes down to..fear, paranoia and plane old racism..

maybe the people who got off the plane or who didn't board should have stayed..

"A spokesman for the Civil Guard in Malaga said: "These men had aroused suspicion because of their appearance and the fact that they were speaking in a foreign language thought to be an Arabic language, and the pilot was refusing to take off until they were escorted off the plane.""

the pilot chose the "others" over the "arab-looking' men"....simply unbelievable..

they pilot should be fired and monarch should be sued........

simply pathetic....
"Up the Irons!"
 
6thfreedom
Posts: 2622
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:48 pm

up until post 5, i was getting pretty worried.

what is the world coming to??

connie and jac... good to see some people being sensible!
 
OHLHD
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:30 pm

Suspect Pax Delays Maersk Flight In VIE (by OHLHD Oct 4 2005 in Civil Aviation)#ID2362388


In this topic I started months back the same thing happend. A Maersk flight from VIE was delayed as a " arab looking guy" who was reading a arabic newspaper was removed from the flight and the A/C was bomb searched!


So EK,QR,EY and GF will go down soon when all arab looking guys are removed Big grin from the flights.......
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:41 pm

They might well not even have been Muslim, and even it they were?
Could be Hindu, Sheik (SP?) - they don't all wear turbans, Buddist, christian.

I am afraid that looking, as one of the other pax said, 'a bit dodgy' does not cut it.
Susequent reports on this do not cast the objections of the other pax in as good a light as some think on here.
There is also the question of the lack of leadership of the Capt here.

These two young men, were given the all clear, returning later.
Given the Capt's lack of leadership, perhaps they should sue the airline.

I for one, most people I know will feel the same too, will NOT go about life being scared and paranoid.
Where I live live, where I work, you just could not function like this.

Then there is the issue of doing the TERRORist's work for them.
 
levent
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:11 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:56 pm

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 9):
So EK,QR,EY and GF will go down soon when all arab looking guys are removed from the flights

It would rather be the other way around - if I were an Arab, I would stick to flying with Gulf carriers only. And why not? They all offer a much better service than the European airlines...

This also worries me personally because I am an 'Arab-looking man' as well. And although I don't speak Arabic, I am sure many people wouldn't know the difference between Arabic, Turkish, Farsi or Hindu if they overheard it. I guess I'll have to cope with it, but if I ever get escorted off a plane because of my looks, I will sue that airline big-time!
 
OHLHD
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:36 pm

Quoting Levent (Reply 11):
It would rather be the other way around - if I were an Arab, I would stick to flying with Gulf carriers only. And why not? They all offer a much better service than the European airlines...

That´s true. They will avoid EU or US carriers if this becoming a common thing.

Quoting Levent (Reply 11):
'Arab-looking man'

Bad man Big grin ...just jokeing

Quoting Levent (Reply 11):
I will sue that airline big-time!

That for sure!!!
 
flynlr
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:12 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Fl

Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:04 pm

while im not a fan of profiling . if you look at the terrorist incidents since the 70's there is the oddball non confomist but in the end it keeps coming back to islamic extremists. I have a very close friend who is muslim . but gosh darnit that profile keeps turning up.
The Right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed
 
icarus75
Posts: 751
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:18 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:09 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
they pilot should be fired and monarch should be sued........

Agree with you!! This is pathetic!!
Flying is amazing!
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Fl

Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:25 pm

That's just sick. Is everyone who speaks "something like Arabic" and "looks kind of Asian" now a terrorist, or what? What are we really coming to?

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 1):
Well according to the article... they men were acting suspicious. I applaud the passengers being so "aware" of the situation.

Yeah, right.

Worries spread after a female passenger said she had heard something that alarmed her.

Heard what? "Something that alarmed her"? Did they talk like "Jihad, Jihad, Allahu Akhbar!"????

Passengers noticed that, despite the heat, the pair were wearing leather jackets and thick jumpers and were regularly checking their watches.

Given how cold it is in airplanes, especially when you come from a warm country, these clothes do not surprise me. And checking their watches? What do YOU do when your planes is late? And how often is regularly? Twice in five minutes?

Anyway, paranoia and fear have turned flying from being the greatest thing in the world to a pretty annoying experience, these days.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:06 pm

Pitiful, absolutely pitiful, and typical of your average tabloid-reading egg-and-chips Monarch passenger - I hope the two men involved sue Monarch and the Guardia Civil for unlawful arrest etc etc. This is blatant racism, nothing more.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
strudders
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:39 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:23 pm

I am appalled by this, truly appalled.

Who is in charge the captain or the passengers?

It would seem that mob rule applies on flights from Malaga.

If anything the passenger's demanding their removal should have been left behind.

I hope they sue Monacrch

I also hope the Captain has some good answers as to why he and his crew let his flight get so out of hand. Just another win for the terrorists.........

Best Regards

Struds

[Edited 2006-08-20 12:24:48]
 
egmcman
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:53 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
they pilot should be fired and monarch should be sued........

Whilst you are entitled to your opinion I would imagine the Captain simply thought it was better to get the guys off the plane than have the rest of passengers complaining.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:07 pm

Now this is a very slippery slope.

Let me take two views:

1) The majority of the public is ignorant. A small minority of the public act on this ignorance. A smaller minority may be irrationaly disturbed at the sight of an Arab / Muslim / "Asian". They will then just look at them wearing 'jumpers' and speaking in 'Arabic' and automatically assume something is up.

2) Some people may side on the fence of security. Political correctness aside, this automatically lifts Arabs / Muslims / "Asians" to the top of the scrutiny pile and maybe rightly so. This is why you need profiling at airports.




In my view, these passengers were stupid. They were acting on racist instincts that were perpetrated by ignorance. They were acting on irrational feelings and mere shock at seeing an Arab / Muslim / Asian / Whatever the people were.

It is certainly very interesting to see how Monarch reacted.

The situation was a disgrace.

Having said that, I myself have no suggestions as to how to strike a balance between security and being aware of certain ethnicities that are statistically and common-sense-ically more likely to commit terrorism than others.

In essence, for shame on the ignorant passengers, for shame on their irrational feelings and emotions, for shame on Monarch.

And it would be the Daily Mail to publish such an article.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12424
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:08 pm

I did not intend this thread I started to become a discussion of politics more appropriate to the non-av area. Rather I wanted to note that we are seeing small numbers of passengers taking what they consider to be their security into their own hands, becoming vigilantes and the potential risks of such behavior. This is going to complicate security programs and airline operations, yet not really reduce terror risks. While we need to figure out better as to how to deal with terror risks, we need to get the confidence of the public and not give in to vigilantism, racism and ignorance.
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 30):
I did not intend this thread I started to become a discussion of politics more appropriate to the non-av area. Rather I wanted to note that we are seeing small numbers of passengers taking what they consider to be their security into their own hands, becoming vigilantes and the potential risks of such behavior. This is going to complicate security programs and airline operations, yet not really reduce terror risks. While we need to figure out better as to how to deal with terror risks, we need to get the confidence of the public and not give in to vigilantism, racism and ignorance.

Definitely agree on that ...
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
soups
Posts: 3220
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:41 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:23 am

i travel very often within europe and europe/africa
1- my middle name is muslim/arab
2-i look middle eastern
If i ever got ''profiled'' and put on the side i am sueing the airline or whoever is in charge of that
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
1stfl94
Posts: 1082
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:33 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:47 am

OK
1) Profiling should be looking for suspicous behaviour rather than simply race or common practice in a certain culture
2) Pretty much every religious extemist (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh) calls for the death of anyone not following their way. We should be targetting all extremists and avoid alienating moderates (something which racial profiling is very good at doing).

I hope these guys do sue the a*** off Monarch, or at least badmouth to everyone they know
 
BA84
Posts: 184
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:36 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:01 am

You can be sure the captain discussed the situation with Monarch HQ.
It was a company decision, to prevent an airborne incident.
This was a no win situation for Monarch.
This was a case of pure paranoia in our society today.
Fire the captain? No, sir! The security of his airplane was his responsibility.
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:27 am

I find it quite disturbing that incidents of this sort are on the increase. People need to understand that terrorism has no boundaries. So while the rest of the world becomes fixated with "Asian" or "Middle Eastern" looking people, Al-Qaeda will simply send suicide bombers of a different race. Racial profiling is only a quick-fix, short term solution which does the bare minimum to fight terrorism. And these are not isolated incidents, last year Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens) was deported back to the UK by over-zealous US officials who somehow managed to identify a world famous musician as a terror suspect.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:37 am

ArsenalLHR is right, forgotten John Walker Lindh already?
What if he had not been some Taliban groupie, but someone training for something else entirely?
Richard Reid would slip through a profiling net too, as would one of the 7/7 bombers, Jermaine Lindsey.
 
djmatthews
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 7:47 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:01 am

I was absolutely disgusted when I heard about this..... What is the world coming to?

I would be interested to hear if Monarch compensated these guys and also what they said. How would you feel if you were singled out simply because of your skin colour and the language you speak?

The passengers on that flight should be ashamed of themselves. The Captain/Monarch should have asked the unhappy passengers to leave the aircraft, not the two innocent men heading on holiday.

I realise there has been lots of "incidents" recently, but behaviour such as this is letting the very small handful of terrorists win! We all forget we are more likely to die on the way to the airport in our cars than be a victim of an air crash or terrorism.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:15 am

Hopefully they'll sue Monarch and win.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
egmcman
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:23 am

This is a no win case for anyone.

If you were the guys accused would you want to be on a plane for two and half hours with people who clearly don't want you on the flight?

ZB chose the least expensive solution. Why should the airline be responsible for passengers opinions?
 
jmc757
Posts: 1205
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 3:36 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting Egmcman (Reply 44):
ZB chose the least expensive solution. Why should the airline be responsible for passengers opinions?

They shouldn't. But it seems a number of people chose to offload themselves from the flight due to concerns. Thats where it should have ended. If they didn't want to fly then thats their problem. Thats when Monarch can say "we're not responsible for your opinions".

Its worth noting that Monarch flew the gents on a later flight. We can assume that on this flight the other passengers weren't utter morons and, unless I've missed the news, the aircraft made it back to Manchester in one piece.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Thread starter):
'asian looking' men, who they thought were speaking Arabic

Yeah, some guy ordered hummus on a flight recently, I nearly had a panic attack.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
A340600MAN
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:42 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:23 am

Hi All

I find this hole episode very disturbing. Two men of Arab origin travelling together, talking in their own language on a aircraft and fellow passengers start loosing their marbles. It's crazy!!! These men past through the same security as everyone else.

If I was the captain and passengers refused to board or had left the aircraft, I would have left without them and they would have to pay for a new ticket. We cannot have the situation where passengers can decide who can and cannot fly.

Len
Fav aircraft has to be A340-600
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting Egmcman (Reply 44):
Why should the airline be responsible for passengers opinions?

The 2 passengers concerned had tickets to fly on Monarch that Monarch are bound to honour. They had passed security checks the same as all other passengers. Monarch should have offered the complaining bigot passengers the choice - be disembarked, buy a new ticket home, or board with the offending beige-hued passengers, sit down and shut up. Monarch are in no way obliged to take into account the irrational prejudices of the moronic passengers when deciding whether other passengers are to be embarked or not.

What if this had been a gay couple, or a mixed race couple, that these idiots had objected to ? Or an HIV positive person ? Is the airline to give in to this kind of bullshit - I would have hoped that Monarch and their crew had a bit more backbone than they showed in this incident.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
cefarix
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 12:00 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Fl

Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:22 am

My family and I here in the states for the summer from Pakistan, and we'll soon be going back. To be perfectly honest, I've never been as hesitant as I am now to travel in the West.

Here's something that might let you know better about how I'll feel when travelling...
1) Will my valuable items (laptops, computer accessories, etc) be safe in the luggage? I've seen how the luggage is sometimes handled on the ramp...that stuff could break if it got rough.
2) We're a group of 8 travelling together, and my 5 siblings are all minors. What if something happens? What if, God forbid, they detain me or my father or someone else... (admittedly, the chances of this are low...we've never really been harassed before, but who knows in this day and world...). My family would be separated. That's a nightmare when you have 6 children and are travelling halfway around the world.
3) It's unlikely we have seats together on the first flight (States -> UK). Are people gonna be scared of us just cause we look different? What about my mom and sister?

It's like stepping into a jungle where you know the lions and prowling and you have to be constantly watching your back, or you might get eaten...

Although I doubt anything serious will happen, you still have all those things going in your head, and you're thinking, "If I get one step out of line, I'm done for..."

 Sad

Some people here have posted that Islam is the reason most "terrorists" are Muslims. That's the same as concluding that because a lion's fur is yellow, then any animal with yellow fur is dangerous. The reasons for a person being a "terrorist" are not found within Islam, but instead lie in politics and economics. However, this is off-topic, so I won't be debating this here further. Just a small response to those who accuse Islam.

Most people here are thinking, rational people who know that just because a person is Asian looking they're not a terrorist. Thanks a lot for that, it makes me feel safer when I travel  biggrin 

As for those who think any Muslim might be a terrorist, here's a some info for you to chew on: There are as many Muslims in the world as there are people in North America and Europe, so think about how ridiculous it is to be irrationally afraid of a diverse group of people whose population is the same as yours.  Yeah sure
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:30 am

I applaud those passengers for doing what any sane person should do. The problems with islamic terrorism has become so rampant, that the public must rely on its own judgement to protect itself. And it is their right to do so.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:36 am

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 53):
that the public must rely on its own judgement to protect itself

Yes, but let's face it. The public's judgement is somtimes stupid.... yes yes even if they do have their rights to do judge and condemn etc. etc. etc.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
frntman
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:23 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:38 am

What would all these Monarch paxs who complained about these passengers do if they were on a flight to CAI, DXB, or JED? Ask for all the "arab looking" people be taken off the aircraft?

As mentioned before, they went through the same security as everyone else. Are the security procedures fool-proof? Certainliy not. You're dealing with the human factor.

Ata any rate, a similar incident as the Monarch one happened with UA this month as well.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...al/2006/08/18/doctor-winnipeg.html
 
A340600MAN
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:42 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:00 am

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 53):
I applaud those passengers for doing what any sane person should do. The problems with Islamic terrorism has become so rampant, that the public must rely on its own judgement to protect itself. And it is their right to do so.

I'm sorry but that is complete and utter rubbish!!!

You cannot have passengers dictating who can travel on a particular flight.

Where do we draw the line here. We have to trust that security is doing it's job.

Len
Fav aircraft has to be A340-600
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 53):
I applaud those passengers for doing what any sane person should do.

Racistly discriminate against someone? Don't be absurd.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
N754PR
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 10:03 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:17 am

I hope these two guys sue the airline. How the hell can passengers just start getting people removed from planes because of their own feelings.... amazing.

When I fly I see loads of peole that I dont like the look of but I'm not going to ask for them to be removed... thats why we have the security at airports.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:25 am

Great, so now:
-I should avoid speaking Arabic at all while on a plane. Speaking Arabic with another Arab = planning a terrorist attack.
-Looking Arabic seems to be a problem to... I mean, who knows, according to Jwenting theres a more than average chance i'm a terrorist!
-Reading Arabic is especially forbidden... its probably the Al Qaeda handbook. I mean, what books do Arabs have other than the Al Qaeda manual and the Quran?
-I shouldn't even dare try to do anything suspicious like try to go to the toilet... I mean, who knows what I could do in there?
-Most important of all, as a Muslim, I shouldn't dare say Allahu Akbar (even though Arabs use it very casually - the equivelent to peopel saying Jesus Christ when pissed off), Alhamdulliah (nope, no thank god in arabic allowed, I mean, anything with Allah has to be linked to terrorism), or anything that is slightly religious.

Guess i'll go lock myself in a room for a year so that maybe I can turn whiter, might help my flying experience  Yeah sure

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 53):
I applaud those passengers for doing what any sane person should do. The problems with islamic terrorism has become so rampant, that the public must rely on its own judgement to protect itself. And it is their right to do so.

This coming from somebody who lives in Toronto? So the tens thousands of Muslims in the greater Toronto area, especially in Mississauga, are now automatically all suspects for terrorism, and if the public feels that two Arab looking men need to be taken off a plane, it should be done even if there is no evidence to suggest there is anything wrong with them other than checking their watch (wow, that must mean something is up) and wearing jackets?

Some of the posts in this thread are seriously disgusting... If this is what the world has come to, expect public opinion of the West to take a deep dive in the Middle East.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:26 am

Quoting Jfklganyc (Reply 3):
It's not being racist to say that the terrorists fit the the profile of a middle-eastern looking person.

It's not being racist, but it's being wrong. Heard of european (as ethnical origin) people converted to radical Islam?

Quoting Thorben (Reply 16):
Anyway, paranoia and fear have turned flying from being the greatest thing in the world to a pretty annoying experience, these days.

 checkmark   Sad

Quoting Levent (Reply 11):
I am sure many people wouldn't know the difference between Arabic, Turkish, Farsi or Hindu if they overheard it.

Yes. This story just makes me puke. Shame on human kind.
When I doubt... go running!
 
tootallsd
Posts: 458
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:02 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:32 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 48):
What if this had been a gay couple, or a mixed race couple, that these idiots had objected to ? Or an HIV positive person ? Is the airline to give in to this kind of bullshit - I would have hoped that Monarch and their crew had a bit more backbone than they showed in this incident.

In the early days of the epidemic, but after the mode of transmission was understood and known, this DID happen. As I recall there were newsworthy occurrences on AA, DL and UA.

The point is that pilots are not gods. They were in a hard situation and in this case made the wrong decision. Hopefully it will be discussed making people more aware of what should be done when this DOES happen again.
 
OHLHD
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:32 pm

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 50):
I applaud those passengers for doing what any sane person should do. The problems with islamic terrorism has become so rampant, that the public must rely on its own judgement to protect itself. And it is their right to do so.

??? Pure Nonsense! I am sure you are a judge too.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 56):
Great, so now:

 Big grin that sums it up!  Big grin

Quoting QR332 (Reply 56):
Guess i'll go lock myself in a room for a year so that maybe I can turn whiter, might help my flying experience

Do not forget your PC to read the regular BS about arabs and islam here on A.Net. Big grin
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:50 pm

Quoting BA84 (Reply 36):

Precisely!

It really is an absolutely sad situation, showing exactly the state to which paranoia has reached, engineered no doubt by certain parties to meet their own agendas.

Monarch was clearly between a rock and a hard place. Dump the suspicious looking passengers and be accused of racism, or dump the passengers who stirred up the rumpus? Just imagine the backlash that would have occurred in the latter case - the tabloids will be screaming that Monarch is on the terrorists' side!

It is all very well to sit back in the comfort of your chair and decide what decision the captain should have made even if you do not have the facts. Personally I would have booted off the passengers who started the drama, without compensation and without their luggage, and left them to make their own way back at their own expense. What right do the passengers have in deciding who may, and who may not be their travelling companions, and how dare they question the authority of the captain, or the efficiency of the security arrangements. If they don't like it, they should get off not sit there like a bunch of juvenile girl guides refusing to sit at a table as they saw a daddy long legs earlier. Could the passengers in the incident not behave like responsible and mature adults? Exactly what sort of example did they set for their children?

I do not blame the captain of the flight or Monarch in any way. Given the current propensity of the UK government, Blair and Bush to lie, I blame them not only for the paranoia but also for the events that caused the paranoia in the first place.

I know I will be flamed for these comments, and I will make no apology in advance, but I think things have gone too far. The reaction of the UK government, and the paranoia of the public is exactly what the terrorists want. How many remember Margaret Thatcher coming within seconds of losing her life in a real bombing at The Grand in Brighton. The following morning she insisted, against the advice of the police and security forces, and with some close colleagues dead or seriously injured, that life must go on uninterrupted.

[Edited 2006-08-21 09:58:16]
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
AI
Posts: 252
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:13 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:48 pm

When i first heard about this incident, i thought there could be no two ways about this. how can a bunch of pax decide who gets on & who doesnt. surely it was wrong to get those 2 men get off because they were middle eastern looking & talking in arabic. I am very surprised with some of the comments here actually justifying that or saying its alright to do so.

I am an Indian hindu & whenever i travel with my family ( we are all "asian" looking ofcourse) i speak to them in my mother tongue - gujarati. now theres no way anybody else is going to know my religion by looking at me & if you dont speak gujarati or arabic & you overhear us speaking in this language you think - hey brown middle eastern looking people talking in some foreign language - must be arabic. so lets get them off the plane. (even though we have been through the security check)
how ridiculous is that ??? & how can anybody here justify that ??
 
Clogman
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:37 pm

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 1):
Well according to the article... they men were acting suspicious. I applaud the passengers being so "aware" of the situation.



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
the pilot chose the "others" over the "arab-looking' men"....simply unbelievable..

they pilot should be fired and monarch should be sued........

simply pathetic....

The poor guys probably were afraid of flying. I have checked my watch too many times when I'm waiting for the A/C. Maybe I should stop doing it now because its suspicios.

I really hope as well that Monarch will get sued their asses off.
And those racist passengers wil have a bad taste in their mouth after this.
 
BMIbaby733
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:44 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:51 am

if, after these men were taken off the flight, it was found that they had some sort of devices (or liquids as it has been talked about)snuggly in their anus, the captain would now be a hero and everyone on here praising him!

A decision was made, job done (regardless of weather or not it was the right one)

Next topic!!!
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 1):
men were acting suspicious

A) suspicious ? overdressed apparently, for whatever reason. As
-
Patrick Mercer, the Tory Homeland Security spokesman, said last night: "This is a victory for terrorists. These people on the flight have been terrorised into behaving irrationally. "For those unfortunate two men to be victimised because of the colour of their skin is just nonsense."
-----------
B)
"The two passengers offloaded from the flight were later cleared by airport security and rebooked to travel back to Manchester on a later flight."
-
On one side it is obvious that they in future rather swallow their fear of cold British weather. On the other side, the question which arises is whether you, if becoming victim of such a problem, are legally entitled to sue the airline for compensation for delay, expenses etc. Not least as there are many holiday-flights just taking place once or twice per week.
-
 
nwcoflyer
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 7:55 am

RE: UK Flyers Do Own Profiling-get Some Pax Off Flight

Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:18 am

This story seems a little bit extreme to me. Though I do favor profiling of select individuals, these men (from what I understand) had cleared security twice. It seems like the necessary steps were taken to ensure that they were no threat to aircraft. I think people may be getting a little to concerned here. I think that Monarch did the right thing, by placing these men in a hotel and sending them out the next day (though it should have never happened in the first place). They were kind of between a rock and a hard spot.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 5):
The terrorist Timothy McVeigh was associated with fundamental Christian groups.

Timothy McVeigh was a racist SOB, but he was not a fundamentalist Christian. Though he claimed his bombing was over Ruby Ridge And Waco, he had no religious ties. As a matter of fact he claimed to be an agnostic (according to The Guardian). He had a copy of the Turner Diaries( a racist book that has no real religious beliefs). Timothy McVeigh was surely a racist low life domestic terrorist, but he was a not a fundamentalist Christian (or even a Christian for that matter).
The New American is arriving.