QXatFAT
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Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:37 pm

Just wondering, what are the most profitable airline routes for the 747 for different carriers such as:

United Airlines
Lufthansa
British Airways
Qantas
Singapore Airlines
JAL
Eva Air
Cathway Pacific

They can be PAX routes or Cargo routes. Both would be even better!  Smile I figured these are the airlines with the biggest 747 routes. Any info is greatly appreciated  Smile

Thanks,
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MRURUN
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:08 pm

Quoting QXatFAT (Thread starter):

JAL has the biggest 747's all types while BA has the biggest 747400.
For BA it would be, in no particular order,
JFK
JNB
PVG
BOM
NRT
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:12 pm

I know that for QF SYD-LAX, MEL-LAX, MEL-AKL-LAX are some of their most profitable 744 and 744ER routes.
Similarly NZ uses 744 for MEL-AKL-LAX and AKL-LAX-LHR both of these routes have very good yields. They also often swap out 772ER for 744 on the AKL-SFO route.  Smile
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YULYMX
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:26 pm

LH should be FRA-YYZ, FRA-IAD, FRA-ORD
 
soups
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:38 pm

BA LHR-LOS.... ....
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kulatict
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:08 pm

for SQ, i think it has to be SIN-LHR (period)
 
UNITED777300
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:20 pm

One of, if not the, profitable 747 routes for United must be ORD-HKG. They have the market to themselves and those birds go out full!
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MRURUN
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting Soups (Reply 4):

Soups is the BA LHR - LOS not T7? Or was that the flight that has now been removed?
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:19 am

I would say for UA:-

ORD-HKG
SFO-HKG
 
LHR777
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting MRURUN (Reply 1):
For BA it would be, in no particular order,
JFK
JNB
PVG
BOM
NRT

JFK is a mix of 744 and 772. PVG is most definitely a 772, we've never flown that with a 744. BOM/DEL do very well for BA, as does HKG, but not NRT, which has seen reduced frequency from many carriers recently and isn't particularly profitable for BA.

I'd say the highest 744 earner for BA is the LOS service.

Quoting MRURUN (Reply 7):
Soups is the BA LHR - LOS not T7? Or was that the flight that has now been removed?

BA75/74 is always a 744. BA137/136 was the evening 3x weekly service, which started as a 763, then moved to a 772 for cargo capacity, before being withdrawn due to Nigerian Government restrictions.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:26 am

What about NW ops DTW-NRT, DTW-KIX?

They go out pretty full, but what are the yields like?
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LipeGIG
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:34 am

How about AF GIG-CDG ?

And TAAG - LAD-LIS ?


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mptpa
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:37 am

How about the Korean Air, NCS, AFR Cargo, UPS, Martinair, Polar/Atlas, LH Cargo service flights? Anybody knows about their yields?
 
TonyBurr
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:45 am

Do you think for UA, LAX or SFO for SYD would be a very high yield?
 
NicolasRubio
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:11 am

EZE-MAD for AR is quite profitable... One daily 744 which goes out preety full AFAIK... And especially taking into account that IB and NM also have one daily EZE-MAD flight with A346 and A332 respectively... Other EZE-Spain flights include EZE-BCN daily with AR's 744 and IB's A343s and EZE-FOR-BCN with NM's A332... This route/s is/are also very profitable but not as profitable as EZE-MAD IMHO...
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ourboeing
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:20 am

How about Northwest Airlines?

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JFK998
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:32 am

For JAL I would assume NRT-SYD to be quite profitable... (I might be wrong)
 
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LTU932
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:38 am

Given that they're routes that might also see the A380, I'd say FRA-MIA and FRA-LAX should also be considered very profitable routes. FRA-NRT might also be one of them, but I guess the reason it might be an A380 route has more to do with slot restrictions at NRT than just profitability.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:46 am

Like everybody else in this forum, i have no access to internal company breakdowns or route profitability, but I have always been of the belief that LHR to North America, LHR-SYD and LHR-HKG are among the most profitable routes in the world.
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moek2000
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:47 am

AF JFK-CDG possibly? Seems like a full load of passengers every flight
 
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AA777223
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:56 am

Quoting Soups (Reply 4):
BA LHR-LOS.... ....

Really? LHR to Nigeria? I wouldn't have thought that would be that popular.
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roseflyer
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:00 am

United's SFO-PVG or SFO-PEK would be my guesses.

I would guess the Kangaroo route is very lucrative for QF and BA.

I think I've heard somewhere that FRA-NRT is very lucrative for LH.

I've heard SIN-HKG-SFO is very lucrative for SQ as well.
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IADLHR
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:04 am

Read an article a few months ago that strongly implied that AF IAD-CDG was one of the most profitable routes in the AF system.
 
thegooddoctor
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:31 am

This one is easy - LAX-SYD and LAX-AUK. I was told by two different UA pilots that these flights usually make around 1 million in profit each flight... (PROFIT)

I'd love to have someone who works up there with numbers in UA back me up or shoot me down on this one!

S
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AeroWesty
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 23):
This one is easy - LAX-SYD and LAX-AUK. I was told by two different UA pilots that these flights usually make around 1 million in profit each flight... (PROFIT)

Well let's look at this. A 744 in UA's configuration carries 347 passengers. A million dollars in profit per flight would mean each seat would have to generate $2881.84 in profit each way. Each way. Now of course you have to consider the flight also carries cargo, but you also have to account for the expense of flying a 744 for 15 hours.

Personally, I don't believe it. Secondly, UA no longer flies to Auckland.
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flydreamliner
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 10):
What about NW ops DTW-NRT, DTW-KIX?

DTW-NRT and MSP-NRT are big routes for NW.
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KLM685
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:13 pm

I think every airline using the 744 coming into MEX has profits with the route ( with the exception of JL, but i'm not sure)

KL
LH
AF(when they brought them)
and BA

All have full flights all year round with their 744
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spacecadet
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:15 pm

For JAL, I would think the most profitable 747 route would have to be:

HND-SPK

which has nine, count 'em, nine 747 (100 and 400D) round trips per day, almost all of which generally sell out, and we're talking 550-capacity domestic-configured planes here.

A while back I might have said HND-Osaka (UKB/KIX/ITM), but that route is now all 777, 767 and 737.

Now, I'm sure JAL makes more per passenger per trip on a route like NRT-JFK, and they fly that three times per day plus code-sharing. But HND-SPK has got to more than make up for margins with volume.

[Edited 2006-08-22 05:17:11]
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ktachiya
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:34 pm

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 27):
Now, I'm sure JAL makes more per passenger per trip on a route like NRT-JFK, and they fly that three times per day plus code-sharing. But HND-SPK has got to more than make up for margins with volume.


Don't they fly that one time a day and like three GRU service that goes via JFK?

Sorry, I'm lost but where is SPK?
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Qantas744er
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:39 pm

Flew LH 447 DEN-FRA on Friday the 19th on a 744 in C. the flight was overbooked by 21 seats in economy and 30 in Business! This flight is always full, because it the only non stop europe connection with BA also doing non top to LHR.

There is speculation, that we could see LH use a 744 on the route in the future.

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spacecadet
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 28):
Don't they fly that one time a day and like three GRU service that goes via JFK?

Two non-stops JFK-NRT and one that goes through Chicago. I don't know anything about GRU. I don't think they'd route you that way; they'd put you on a code-share first, and that's assuming their three other flights are sold out.

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 28):
Sorry, I'm lost but where is SPK?

According to JAL, it's Sapporo - Chitose. I was surprised this site didn't pick it up and identify it, but it's definitely listed as SPK on JAL's timetable.

I've read that Sapporo-Tokyo is the busiest city pair in the world and JAL's high-density 747 frequency between the two cities seems to bear that out.

[Edited 2006-08-22 05:47:56]
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MAH4546
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:41 pm

The common formula is dense routes with significant O&D and business traffic. In the US, this will include routes like London-Miami, Frankfurt-Chicago, and London-Los Angeles, among others.
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767er
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:43 pm

SQs SYD SIN SYD is very profitable after SIN LHR SIN.
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COSPN
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:52 pm

CTS and SPK are next door to each other...many Japanese still use the SPK code but it is the same property just different runways
 
elmothehobo
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:08 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 20):
Really? LHR to Nigeria? I wouldn't have thought that would be that popular.

Yup. There is a significant population of Nigerians living in London, as well as a significant group of wealthy Nigerians who own places in London.

More importantly there is the black gold traffic. BP and Shell have major drilling operations in Nigeria, with their main offices in Lagos. Some other major oil companies (ExxonMobile, Chevron Texaco) have offices in London and Lagos in addition to their drilling and pumping projects elsewhere in Nigeria (Port Harcourt).

Finally there is also a lot of government traffic, however much of it is through Abuja (the National Capital).
 
vincewy
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:10 pm

for both BR and CI, amazingly, it's TPE-HKG, even discount economy fares are at least $200 RT, KA and CX charge about the same amount, now we're talking about cartel and oligopoly.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:31 pm

Sorry people but you are ALL GUESSING! Some of them maybe educated guesses, but they are still guesses! This is just about the most closely guarded seceret in the business!

If anybody has any real knowledge for ANY airline, for ANY route, for ANY aircraft type, I for one would LOVE to hear the details.

Gemuser
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N174UA
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:46 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 24):
Well let's look at this. A 744 in UA's configuration carries 347 passengers. A million dollars in profit per flight would mean each seat would have to generate $2881.84 in profit each way. Each way. Now of course you have to consider the flight also carries cargo, but you also have to account for the expense of flying a 744 for 15 hours.

Personally, I don't believe it. Secondly, UA no longer flies to Auckland.

I wonder if maybe he meant when UA did fly LAX-AKL with 744s? Still, we are talking about present day.

My guesses:

BA: LHR-JFK
UA: SFO-HKG, SFO-SYD, LAX-SYD, IAD-FRA, SFO-FRA
QF: SYD-LAX
CX: HKG-LAX/SFO
LH: FRA-ORD, FRA-IAD, FRA-SFO

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 36):
This is just about the most closely guarded seceret in the business!

If anybody has any real knowledge for ANY airline, for ANY route, for ANY aircraft type, I for one would LOVE to hear the details.

 checkmark  You'll never know those details until you work in revenue management for any one of these airlines.  Wink
 
QXatFAT
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:54 pm

Me personaly, I would guess that NW is making the most money then any other 744 route out there. DTW to NRT. Thats what I think is the biggest route.

The only other ones I could think of would be LAX-FRA on LH.

This might be a bit off track but AA used to use widebodys from SJC to NRT. Would 744 service work on this route and make a good amount of money? Yes I know AA doesnt have 744's at all but I am talking about JL or someone else putting 744's on this route. Would it make a great amount of money?
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roseflyer
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:50 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 36):
Sorry people but you are ALL GUESSING! Some of them maybe educated guesses, but they are still guesses! This is just about the most closely guarded seceret in the business!

Yes, but it is a lot of fun to guess and see what others think.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 36):
If anybody has any real knowledge for ANY airline, for ANY route, for ANY aircraft type, I for one would LOVE to hear the details.

There are some hints given in SEC filings, but in general, the profitability of a certain route would be a trade secret that airlines are not going to publicly announce.
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SAA346
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:11 pm

SAA JNB>LOS

Occupancy still runs in the 90's F and C generally 100%.

(Soups, we gonna tell the truth about WA routes in general  Smile )
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:34 pm

From my guess, I'd say LHR-JFK or LHR-LAX for BA, coming back from LAX, the plane was completely full, and I believe it's not un-common.

Quoting MRURUN (Reply 7):
Soups is the BA LHR - LOS not T7? Or was that the flight that has now been removed?

No, as far as I know, it's still a 744.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 20):
Really? LHR to Nigeria? I wouldn't have thought that would be that popular.

One word; oil

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AA777223
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:32 pm

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 34):
Yup. There is a significant population of Nigerians living in London, as well as a significant group of wealthy Nigerians who own places in London.

Well, thanks for the info! You learn something new everyday, although I do have to say that makes perfect sense. I feel stupid for not realizing it myself.
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:38 pm

BA and SA definitely make piles out of LOS and on JNB-LHR.

I imagine CX makes a lot between LHR/SYD/LAX/YVR and HKG?

And SQ between SIN and SFO/HKG/FRA/JFK/LHR/SYD?
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Zkpilot
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:56 pm

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 23):
LAX-AUK

I think you mean LAX-AKL (New Zealand, AUK is Alakanuk, Alaska, United States).
As for the amount of profit per flight, I would say its more in the region of US$100,000.
Also UA doesn't fly to AKL anymore... just to Australia... UA has a codeshare on NZ (which btw has a much better product).
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BreninTW
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:20 pm

In days gone by, CX used to fly the 744 HKG <-> JNB, and I remember those flights almost always being full. Last two flights I took were biz class on an A343, and the flights were packed to the rafters (I think econ pax were moved up to biz class).

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ZSOFN
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:20 pm

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 41):
From my guess, I'd say LHR-JFK or LHR-LAX for BA, coming back from LAX, the plane was completely full, and I believe it's not un-common.

Don't mistake high volumes (sure it's a heavy route) with high yields and profits. Average ticket prices on the JFK/LAX routes aren't nearly the same as LOS for example.
 
BCAL
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:40 pm

Quoting MRURUN (Reply 1):
For BA it would be, in no particular order,
JFK



Quoting N174UA (Reply 37):
My guesses:

BA: LHR-JFK

Like it has been said above, airlines' most profitable routes are highly guarded secrets otherwise there would probably be calls for the airlines to drop their fares on those routes. However, it is no secret that despite being probably one of their niche routes, BA does not make significant profits on LHR-JFK. In fact, I seem to recall reading somewhere in the Bermuda II papers that BA makes more profit on LHR-YYZ than LHR-JFK. So this might silence the anti-B2 brigade that Bermuda II is anti-competitive.

LHR-LOS is known to be a good performer, but much of the revenue from this route is frozen in Nigerian bank accounts. Even in these days of electronic and card payments, I believe the Nigerian Government still has strict antiquarian exchange controls, so money earned in Nigeria has to stay in Nigeria.
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richardw
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:54 pm

I've never seen BA LHR-GRU go on special offer, so am guessing this is probaly a good one.
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: Most Profitable 747 Routes For Airlines?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:29 pm

One route nobody has mentioned yet is QF's SYD-JNB? Given the high fares on this route you'd think (hope?!) that it's a profitable one.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 21):
I would guess the Kangaroo route is very lucrative for QF and BA.

Well you'd hope so too, if only just for QF's sake. The Asian carriers have quite a big advantage over QF.

It probably isn't as profitable as other routes, otherwise BA wouldn't have pulled out of MEL completely and is putting on a 772 instead of a 744 for the SYD via SIN route.

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 23):
This one is easy - LAX-SYD and LAX-AUK. I was told by two different UA pilots that these flights usually make around 1 million in profit each flight... (PROFIT)



Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 24):
Well let's look at this. A 744 in UA's configuration carries 347 passengers. A million dollars in profit per flight would mean each seat would have to generate $2881.84 in profit each way. Each way. Now of course you have to consider the flight also carries cargo, but you also have to account for the expense of flying a 744 for 15 hours.

Yeah a million dollars per flight sounds impossible to me, even with cargo you're looking at US$2800+ per pax even if it goes out full ... and it has a load factor of 80-something % ... and that figure is revenue, not profit.

Quoting JFK998 (Reply 16):
For JAL I would assume NRT-SYD to be quite profitable... (I might be wrong)

Probably not. Wasn't JL going to reduce frequency on this one because of low yields? (Or was it another Japanese port?) Keeping it going was a worthwhile announcement by the Aussie tourism minster ...
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