speedmarque
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Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:15 am

Hi All,

In the Sept/Oct edition of "Airports Of The World" magazine, the feature on Martinique shows both A320 and B737 of Air France. Obviously they are not used transat so where do they fly to? Is it mainline AF or a franchise?

What other european airlines do this sort of thing?

Thanks for help.

S
 
Thomas_Jaeger
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:35 am

It is one mainline A320-200.
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
 
speedmarque
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting Thomas_Jaeger (Reply 1):
It is one mainline A320-200.

Sorry but what?

On page 60 its an A320 but its a B733 shown being tugged on page 61.

Anyone have more info?

Thanks in advance
 
DernierVirage
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:56 am

AF have a service linking together Cayenne/Fort de France/Pointe à Pitre/Port-au-Prince/Miami, which is why you would see a 320 in Martinique. I think it is indeed a 320 that is used, but I am not 100% sure.
 
airbazar
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:03 am

AFAIK, AF mainline maintains one narrowbody aircraft (A320), operating between Miami and a few Caribbean destinations such as Haiti and Guadeloupe.

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Photo © Victor Lopez



IB used to operate a hub at MIA, flying A319's but after 9/11 they closed it down. I can't remember at this time whether the hub was moved to somewhere in C.America.

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Photo © Andre Quiros

 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting Speedmarque (Reply 2):
On page 60 its an A320 but its a B733 shown being tugged on page 61.

The B733 was used previously. It was replaced in the mid-90s by an A320. The aircraft is fully operated by AF, with AF Crews.
 
usair320
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:46 am

AF never had any 733. I think your thinking of the 735.
 
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viasa
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 5):
It was replaced in the mid-90s by an A320.

In the spring 2001 I see still the B737 at PTP. The newly delivered A320 replace the B737 in july of the same year.
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:01 am

As said in earlier posts, Air France operates an A-320 3Carribbean Division, linking the French territories (including Guyana) with neighbouring countries, mainly the US through ATL and MIA.
The plane there is F-GKXC with a special cabin config, the same as used for the "longer haul" Europe Div.
The 320 replaced the 737 then posted there three / four years ago. That's how old those pics are.
Ho^pe it helps.
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YULWinterSkies
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting Usair320 (Reply 6):
AF never had any 733. I think your thinking of the 735.

They did. They don't anymore. All 733s are gone, only a bunch of 735s are left.
When I doubt... go running!
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 4):
AFAIK, AF mainline maintains one narrowbody aircraft (A320), operating between Miami and a few Caribbean destinations such as Haiti and Guadeloupe.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 4):
IB used to operate a hub at MIA, flying A319's but after 9/11 they closed it down. I can't remember at this time whether the hub was moved to somewhere in C.America.

Well, the difference here is mostly that AF's hub is rather FDF and PTP than MIA. Or can one fly AF to Haiti through MIA too?

IB's hub IIRC has been moved to ... Madrid! perhaps I'm wrong though... And that was not right after 9/11 but 2004 (again, who can confirm please?)
When I doubt... go running!
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:29 am

Further to my post #8.
Air France did own some 733s, inherited from Aeromaritime during the UTA take over.
One of them, and as far as I know the only one used, was F-GFUJ which had flown in the Antilles division up to 2001 when it was replaced by a 320.
here is the proof :

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Photo © Justin Cederholm

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dutchjet
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting Usair320 (Reply 6):
AF never had any 733. I think your thinking of the 735.

AF did have 733s, and a 733 did operate the caribbean route until it was replaced with the A320 now operated.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 10):
Well, the difference here is mostly that AF's hub is rather FDF and PTP than MIA. Or can one fly AF to Haiti through MIA too?

Also, consider that the AF is connecting Miami with islands that are technically part of France (atleast that is true for Guadeloupe and Martinique), thus, the flight island hops from Miami to Cayenne. The AF caribbean route is an interesting and sentimental one.....routes like this are rarely seen these days.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 10):
IB's hub IIRC has been moved to ... Madrid! perhaps I'm wrong though... And that was not right after 9/11 but 2004 (again, who can confirm

You are correct.....IB closed down its MIA mini-hub since the post 9/11 US transit regulations were too burdensome and made the MIA hub very problematic for IB. While there was talk of moving the operation to Cancun or Santo Domingo, in the long run, IB ended up introdcuing new nonstop flights from MAD to certain Central American cities and entered into code shares to provide service to other cities once served via MIA.
 
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foxecho
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:58 am

Hell of a routing alternating days:
Airport

Cayenne, Rochambeau (CAY) - FRENCH GUIANA

12:45 pm on August 21,2006


Fort de France, Lamentin (FDF) - MARTINIQUE

1:50 pm on August 21,2006
Connecting flight

Fort de France, Lamentin (FDF) - MARTINIQUE

2:40 pm on August 21,2006


Pointe à Pitre, Pole Caraibes (PTP) - GUADELOUPE

3:15 pm on August 21,2006
Connecting flight

Pointe à Pitre, Pole Caraibes (PTP) - GUADELOUPE

4:15 pm on August 21,2006


Port au Prince, Toussaint Louverture (PAP) - HAITI

6:10 pm on August 21,2006
Connecting flight

Port au Prince, Toussaint Louverture (PAP) - HAITI

7:10 pm on August 21,2006


Miami, Miami Intl (MIA) - USA

9:00 pm on August 21,2006

Andrew
JFK/MEM/MCI
..uh, we'll need that to live......
 
OB1783P
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:11 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 12):
the flight island hops from Miami to Cayenne. The AF caribbean route is an interesting and sentimental one.....routes like this are rarely seen these days.

It is my dream to visit Guyane (especially the river between Guyane and Suriname). Has been for years. But it is incredibly expensive and time consuming. Of course the AF Island Hopper would be a hoot, but MIA to CAY is $1000 r/t and 8 hours. Plus MIA is not convenient for me: coming from the mid-atlantic, I'd have to spend a night there to make the early departure.

I once calculated it would be faster and cheaper to go through CDG!

I could fly to POS from my region easily and cheaply. But there, the situation gets dicey too (Suriname Airways? BWIA?). I have also determined once that I might as well fly to PBM and take the bus from there. Sounds like fun, no?
I've flown thousands of miles and I can tell you it's a lot safer than crossing the street!
 
Falcon Flyer
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:16 am

The 737 replaced a 727-200 that was also previously used in the Caribbean.
My definition of cool ? Not trying so hard to be cool.
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 12):
Also, consider that the AF is connecting Miami with islands that are technically part of France (atleast that is true for Guadeloupe and Martinique), thus, the flight island hops from Miami to Cayenne

Funny way of putting things.
Is Hawai technically part of the USA ?
Guyane, Martinique and Guadeloupe are french overseas "departements", Guyane also having the priviledges of a "region";
Hope it helps.
Contrail designer
 
MRURUN
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:28 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 16):

How does this work for flightdeck and cabin crew? Are they all locally sourced or are they rotated through the Euro/Mid-Fleet ex France?
 
MAH4546
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 8):
As said in earlier posts, Air France operates an A-320 3Carribbean Division, linking the French territories (including Guyana) with neighbouring countries, mainly the US through ATL and MIA.

It does not fly to Atlanta. The A320 is flies the following routes:

MoWeSa: CAY-PAP-PTP-FDF-MIA
TuThSu: MIA-PAP-PTP-FDF-CAY
Fr: CAY-FDF-PTP-PAP-PTP-FDF-CAY
a.
 
SJUSXM
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:17 am

I remember seeing the IB A319's. I saw about 3 in an hour and was thinking. What the heck are they doing down here? Later i heard about their carribean services. Only once have i ever seen the AF A320. It looks so weird in MIA.
AT7, ER3, ER4, ER5, CR7, E70, E75, F100, M82, M83, 722, 732, 738, 752, 762, 763, AB6, 320, 321, 772, 77W
 
airbazar
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:19 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 10):
Well, the difference here is mostly that AF's hub is rather FDF and PTP than MIA. Or can one fly AF to Haiti through MIA too?

I don't see why not. AF3943 departs MIA for PAP on Tue, Thu, Sun at 8:45am and arrives in PAP at 1:50pm. You'd have to overnight in Miami if you're flying from CDG but it seems possible.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:18 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 4):
IB used to operate a hub at MIA, flying A319's but after 9/11 they closed it down. I can't remember at this time whether the hub was moved to somewhere in C.America.

The IB MIA hub wasn't closed until September 30th 2004, and then on October 1st of the same year, direct flights from MAD to GUA, SJO and PTY were restarted. However, 9/11 is one of the reasons why the MIA hub was closed (along with the introduction of Transit Visas for non-Visa Waiver countries). AF and them basing an A320 is a bit different than IB's feeder flights to the MIA hub.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:11 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):
However, 9/11 is one of the reasons why the MIA hub was closed (along with the introduction of Transit Visas for non-Visa Waiver countries)

New rules that were a result of 9/11 - the cancelation of the transit without visa program - was pretty much the only reason the hub closed.
a.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:07 pm

Quoting Usair320 (Reply 6):
AF never had any 733. I think your thinking of the 735.

Oh no ?

F-GFUA, F-GFUD, F-GFUE, F-GFUJ, F-GHVM, F-GHVN, F-GHVO, F-GRFA, F-GRFB, F-GRFC.
All are B737-300. All were operated by Air France until 2003.
 
TriStar500
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:32 pm

Quoting Usair320 (Reply 6):
AF never had any 733. I think your thinking of the 735.

Funny, I flew at least twice on an AF B733 - I guess I must have been on drugs then.  crazy 

Quoting Pihero (Reply 8):
The plane there is F-GKXC with a special cabin config, the same as used for the "longer haul" Europe Div.

In what way is the configuration different from the short-haul configured examples?
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:59 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 8):
The plane there is F-GKXC with a special cabin config, the same as used for the "longer haul" Europe Div.

Not really.

F-GKXC is configured in a single Y class of 171 seats. This config is very similar to the one of the aircraft based at ORY and used on the domestic network (172 seats "Metroconcept").

The A320 used on the European network are configured with 165 seats ("Euroconcept").
 
rootsair
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:10 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 4):
IB used to operate a hub at MIA, flying A319's but after 9/11 they closed it down. I can't remember at this time whether the hub was moved to somewhere in C.America.



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 12):
You are correct.....IB closed down its MIA mini-hub since the post 9/11 US transit regulations were too burdensome and made the MIA hub very problematic for IB. While there was talk of moving the operation to Cancun or Santo Domingo, in the long run, IB ended up introdcuing new nonstop flights from MAD to certain Central American cities and entered into code shares to provide service to other cities once served via MIA.

flights are as follows

MAD-GUA-SJO-MAD

MAD-SJO-MAD

MAD-SJO-PTY-MAD

At first it were DC9's ,then MD87 s and finally A319s that were based in the MIA HUB.
Pre 9/11, we would go to a transit hall where we had to wait before embarking our next flight. It was horrible! You had no view of the outside.
After that, one had to do the VERY USELESS procedures of taking the little tram to go through the customs and then having to pass the customs again, without mentioning the very pushed safety procedures which could make you easily miss your flight. It was very stressful, and people who needed visas for the UShad to pay all that cash just to trnasit.

Many people complained and Iberia had no other choice than to close that hub and introduce direct flights .
Routes which could not hold a direct flight such as MGA, SPO, SAL or CUN are now served by a codeshare with TACA(don't know about CUN)
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:57 pm

Quoting MRURUN (Reply 17):
How does this work for flightdeck and cabin crew? Are they all locally sourced or are they rotated through the Euro/Mid-Fleet ex France?

FAs are recruited locally. Flight deck personnel are, as you said rotated from the medium haul division, for two years on a senioruty basis.

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 24):

In what way is the configuration different from the short-haul configured examples?



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 25):
F-GKXC is configured in a single Y class of 171 seats. This config is very similar to the one of the aircraft based at ORY and used on the domestic network (172 seats "Metroconcept").

And equipment tailored to the network...toilets in particuler, cabin menagement computer...

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
It does not fly to Atlanta.

My mistake !
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MRURUN
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:45 pm

Thanks Pihero!

fillfillfill
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:01 pm

Very intresting. I think this is a 5th freedom route if i'm not mistaken.

MCOflyer
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TriStar500
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:38 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 29):
Very intresting. I think this is a 5th freedom route if i'm not mistaken.

Only PAP-MIA, all the others are between France (FDF, PTP, CAY) and neigboring countries.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
airbazar
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:51 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):
The IB MIA hub wasn't closed until September 30th 2004

Last I checked 2004 came after 2001. I didn't say right after 9/11  Smile
In any case, I was making a generalization that meant that IB closing of their MIA hub was because of the immigration policy implemented in US airports post 9/11.
 
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Embajador3
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:36 pm

Do not forget that IB had an hub in EZE back in the 70's with DC-9s. MIA's hub was closed in 2004 and IB was poised to move it to HAV, however, they decided to reopen scheduled direct services to many central american destination such as SJO, GUA and PTY. CUN is currently flown by Iberworld codesharing with IB.

Hope it helps!
Flying Together
 
gte439u
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting Embajador3 (Reply 32):
Do not forget that IB had an hub in EZE back in the 70's with DC-9s.

Where did IB fly from it's EZE operation in the '70s?
 
miaskies
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:37 am

Another rare sight is the Martinair A320 in full color scheme side by side to the Martinair 763.... so we still see some Euro rarities around at MIA
Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
 
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LTU932
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting MIASkies (Reply 34):
Another rare sight is the Martinair A320 in full color scheme side by side to the Martinair 763

That aircraft is wetleased from TA to serve SJO from MIA and MCO, as a feeder flight. MP stopped direct flights into SJO in 2004 and the word is that it's got something do to with the airport infrastructure (couldn't blame them though, SJO is in fact one of the probably worst managed airports in the region thanks to Alterra).
 
TriStar500
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:27 am

For a short time, Miami Air also operated a B738 for MP in their colorscheme from MIA to SJO.


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Diego Alonso Romero Alvarado - SJO Spotter

Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
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LTU932
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 36):
For a short time, Miami Air also operated a B738 for MP in their colorscheme from MIA to SJO.

Correct. That was when MP started "outsourcing" their SJO operations. The lease ended after a year, and since then, MP uses a TA A320 (it's actually an LR aircraft, but LR only exists on paper now and that just doesn't count for me) for their MIA-MCO feeder flights from SJO.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrés Meneses - SJO Spotter

 
TriStar500
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:50 am

If I recall correctly, MP also used operate/ still operates (?) an EMB-120 as a crew shuttle within the Carribean in order to transfer crews between lesser frequented destinations, thereby avoidíng week-long crew layovers.

Does anyone know more about this interesting operation?
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
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Embajador3
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting Gte439u (Reply 33):
Where did IB fly from it's EZE operation in the '70s?

I think this picture does explain everything. As at MIA, those DC-9s where used as feeders.
Big version: Width: 640 Height: 418 File size: 76kb

Hope it helps
Flying Together
 
columba
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting Embajador3 (Reply 39):

I think this picture does explain everything

Those were the days. Great picture of two awesome birds. Makes me miss MDD even more.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
gte439u
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting Embajador3 (Reply 39):
oting Gte439u (Reply 33):
Where did IB fly from it's EZE operation in the '70s?

I think this picture does explain everything. As at MIA, those DC-9s where used as feeders.

What were the destinations to which IB flew from EZE when IB had the hub there?
 
AA767400
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting Gte439u (Reply 41):
What were the destinations to which IB flew from EZE when IB had the hub there?

ASU/MVD/SCL if I am not mistaken.
"The low fares airline."
 
FPOST
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:33 pm

(Quoting FLYSSC) Oh no ?

F-GFUA, F-GFUD, F-GFUE, F-GFUJ, F-GHVM, F-GHVN, F-GHVO, F-GRFA, F-GRFB, F-GRFC.
All are B737-300. All were operated by Air France until 2003.

Yes, that's right! As a 737-300 F/O I flew last sunday on F-GFUE on a CDGFUNCDG flight an I can tell you it's a ex Aéromaritime, ex Aéropostale and ex AF aircraft. It has a cargo door (it's a QC aircraft) and was manufactured in 1988 (I checked all the papers before flying).
 
David L
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:57 pm

Quoting FPOST (Reply 43):

I see we now have two Paris based AF pilots here. We'll definitely need to double-check before posting anything relating to AF now - less chance of "getting away" with anything while Pihero's away flying.  Smile
 
RayPettit
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:30 pm

Just for the record, the AF presence in the Caribbean goes back a long way, and I remember that one or two of their Caravelles were elusive at Heathrow in the early seventies because of their duties in those warmer climes.
 
se210
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:40 pm

AF SE210 at MIA (lower left hand corner)


Source: Murphy Bros. Press 72-46

AF SE210 F-BJTR at PAP


Source:Mexichrome 6790
 
TriStar500
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:47 pm

Fascinating pictures! Does anyone know, when the Se210 was replaced by the B727 in the Antilles?

Didn't there used to be some ERJ-145 with AF flight numbers a few years ago ex PTP and FDF? I suppose these flights were operated by Air Caraibes. Why did that stop?
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
coyoteguy
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:20 pm

I took the AF 733 once from FDF to MIA with stops in PTP and PAP. We had to get off the plane in PTP and PAP, and I remember that there was limited electricity in PAP terminal at the time, and the announcements were made with a megaphone. A full meal was served between PTP and PAP and another one between PAP and MIA, both with wine, drinks, etc. It was a very gracious, French style service. I don't remember exactly when this was, but I would guess it was 97 or 98.

IB also used MD-87s for a while in their MIA mini hub before replacing them with the A-319s and then eventually closing down altogether.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Air France A320 And B737 In Martinique?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:32 pm

Could I fly PAP-MIA on AF?

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.

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