aussie_
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Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:06 am

There have been persistant rumours around oz in the past few weeks (much longer than that, if you keep your ears to the ground) about a Virgin order for Embraer regional jets.

The most detailed of the rumours is the following that was posted on a regional spotters site recently:

Anyone have anything to add to this??

* * *

Subject: Virgin Blue Fleet additions

Hi,

New aircraft coming into the stables 2007-2009.

Embraer 170 Regional Jets (4x ), & Embraer 190 Regional Jets (21x) for
Regional services throught Australia.

International services:

B777-200 LR has been given the nod for International services to USA.

An announcement from Virgin Blue is expected mid September.

Embraer company demonstrator Emb-190 aircraft PP-XMB c/n 1900002 will
arrive in Darwin for an Australia wide tour in November.
 
MRURUN
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting Aussie_ (Thread starter):

Where will DJ use the EMB? Replacing capacity eg MEL-SYD at quieter times of the day? Or new routes? Is the order of EMB strictly for DJ or for PacBlue/PolyBlue too?
 
gigneil
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:26 am

777-200LR services to the USA vs. Jetstar's 787s will stand no chance.

N
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:31 am

Surely the cheaper way to start regional services would be to buy Rex?

cheers

mariner
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antares
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:16 am

I hadn't heard anything on this but it sounds pretty exciting.

If true, I'd expect the Embraers to focus on Canberra, where the use of Q400s and Q300s is an insult, especially a Q400 for more than two hours from Brisbane which I did a few months ago. A total disgrace. You don't stick business people in a stuffy horrid little buzz box, and if this is true Qantas is going to get the kicking it deserves.

This would also be a very potent jet for say Hamilton island and the Sunshine Coast, where Qantas enraged its customer base by deploying Jetstar. Ask yourselves. Two by two in an Embraer, or line up and shut up and push and shove so you can get jammed into a Jetstar 320.

This would be a very good move, if true. And even better if Qantas goes out and matches it with the Embraers as well.

Antares
 
jfk777
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:32 am

Virgin Blue to the USA would be great, but to what city are they flying to?
 
aerohottie
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:07 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
777-200LR services to the USA vs. Jetstar's 787s will stand no chance.

Not entirely true if you look at the routes the aircraft will likely operate on... DJ would probably use the aircraft on the prime routes of MEL/SYD and possibly BNE to LAX/SFO and maybe even ORD/NYC etc... these are prime routes for Qantas, where they use 747's... the 7772LR would have far lower costs than the 744's used by Qantas. If Qantas was to deploy Jetstar armed with 787's onto these routes just to offer flights with lower costs than DJ then they would also be attacking the Qantas premium brand and destroying their own yeilds. Effectively this would Give DJ a nice little posse between the QF brands.... QF would be damned if they did, and damned if they don't. QF would prob be better off leaving these prime routes to QF metal rather than mongrelise the market.
What?
 
ABpositive
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:08 am

I can't wait to get a go on the Embraers.
 
AS384
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:54 am

If there were any truth to the B772LR rumour, then I'd hope the rationale behind such a quixotic equipment choice was :

(a) because the B772LR is available right now (ILFC et al ?) and;
(b) to gazump QF by connecting UA hubs at Chicago and Denver to BNE, SYD and MEL before the B787 can be deployed by Qantas or Jetstar.

DJ should not get into a low margin war of attrition in the USA west coast market quagmire. Overfly 'em all, I say !!

Would it be right to speculate that the newly invigorated (but cash poor) UA likely won't concede bums on seats to anybody (even a potential code share partner, such as DJ) on their existing routes out of California. . .
 
gigneil
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:12 pm

Quoting Aerohottie (Reply 6):
the 7772LR would have far lower costs than the 744's used by Qantas.

I don't believe that to be true... a 777-300ER would probably, yeah, but the 747 vs a 777-200LR?

The 747 does have one thing for it, and that's seat mile cost if you can fill the seats. QF has absolutely no problem filling them on said route.

Further, QF can demand a premium RASM on the route. A Virgin Blue 777 wouldn't really.

N
 
antares
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:24 pm

People back home think the 777-200LR rumor is wrong but that the Embraer rumor is plausible but at least an hour or so ago there was nothing from any of the proper channels to indicate confirmation or denial.
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:24 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 9):
Further, QF can demand a premium RASM on the route. A Virgin Blue 777 wouldn't really.

Who said the US services would come under the existing Virgin Blue brand? It could well be a VS-type full-service carrier for all we know, and I believe they have been making noises about looking at names and standards of service etc for the US route.

I still don't see why they would go with 772LRs ...

And the E190 idea for CBR and Queensland's holiday isles sound fantastic. Would love to see Embraers in Oz!
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onedude
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:53 pm

I believe the EMB's are for SYD/CBR/SYD high density service.

Cheers,
onedude
 
jacobin777
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:10 pm

this story has been around for a while..

fair use excerpt:

"the international arm of Virgin Blue, however, would be subject to Australia's foreign ownership restrictions. No more than 25% of a carrier can be owned by an individual foreign airline and no more than 35% by all foreign airlines, while foreign ownership is capped at 49%.

Services to the US probably would be launched with 747s leased from SIA, swapping to 777s once operational experience allowed ETOPS"**

** source:atwonline.com
"Up the Irons!"
 
antares
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:50 pm

Jacobin777,

The chances of Singapore Airlines being involved in the long haul Virgin Blue enterprise are said to less than zero by well placed persons in both Singapore and Australia.

The chances of Temasek Holdings, which is the major shareholder in Singapore Airlines, being involved said operation is more than zero, but I'm not sure by how much.

Antares
 
RichardJF
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:10 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 4):
Ask yourselves. Two by two in an Embraer, or line up and shut up and push and shove so you can get jammed into a Jetstar 320.

Good point!
 
jasond
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:55 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 10):
People back home think the 777-200LR rumor is wrong but that the Embraer rumor is plausible but at least an hour or so ago there was nothing from any of the proper channels to indicate confirmation or denial.

The EMB bit I could believe but the 777, I'm not sure. DJ have indicated a desire to extend internationally and sure their fleet of 737's makes them a sizable operator (most are leased BTW) but to operate a much larger aircraft over new routes like this would be a huge step for them surely. Could they launch this by themselves or would they require assistance from others?
 
cobra27
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:00 pm

Can they afford to buy 777-200LR?
 
mig21umd
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:45 pm

Let this be a lesson for DJ


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Photo © Sam Chui



I do not beleive DJ will have any fortune with flights to the US. Same goes for any other 'new kid' who tires to take on the Australia U.S. pacific block!
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
 
anstar
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:47 am

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 18):
Let this be a lesson for DJ

What is the lesson?

They are Virgin Atlantic beds which I ams ure we would see on DJ long haul USA services...

More like let it be a lesson to UA & QF..... DJ are coming.
 
bnamaxx
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:55 am

Virgin Blue from Australia to the U.S. Next year AC starts LAX-SYD with their fifth freedom , right? Isn't the market getting overcrowded with carriers? Is SN going to try and go for approval again? What about EK?
 
CrossChecked
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:49 am

The likes of DJ don't care that the market is becoming overcrowded, for they'll likely come in with prices so low that they'll take a massive chunk of the leisure sector. Any DJ service (though I doubt we'll see it) between the US and Australia will, I think, prove to be a big hit with the lower end of the leisure market - namely, backpackers and budget holidaymakers.

The prospect of an "explorer" ticket from the US to Aus and including maybe 5 domestic sectors through Australia, New Zealand and the SoPac is an exciting one.
Cabin crew, doors to manual and cross check.
 
bnamaxx
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting Bnamaxx (Reply 20):
Is SN going to try and go for approval again?

My bad, meant SQ.
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 3):
Surely the cheaper way to start regional services would be to buy Rex?

don't think so at all. first, i don't think that DJ is interested in 30-seat turboprop aircraft. there might be a market for such a service by Rex, but it doesn't allow for really low seat mile costs. i don't think that aircraft with less than 100 seats would catch the attention of DJ.

DJ must find a balance between low cost and regional service, something like Jetblue is trying with its EMB 190s.

Quoting Antares (Reply 10):
the Embraer rumor is plausible

it's more than rumor, more than a year ago, there have been brief articles in Flight International and ATW magazines.

Quoting Onedude (Reply 12):
I believe the EMB's are for SYD/CBR/SYD high density service.

unless DJ doesn't get one of those government deals, there is hardly no market for them to serve SYD-CBR as QF has got most of those kinds of contracts. that's why that route did not work out for DJ in the first place.

i think especially out west there are a number of markets which could be served by 100-seat Embraer jets. thinking of Kalgoorlie and Broome here.
also, those birds would allow to increase frequencies to other destinations, which in turn makes for a more attractive product for the business traveler.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 23):
DJ must find a balance between low cost and regional service, something like Jetblue is trying with its EMB 190s.

Indeed. And so far, the Embraers have not been a happy financial story for JetBlue.

Hopefully, that will change - they are dealing with service between major cities. One wonders how may cities in Australia can sustain such service.

Your example of Broome is valid, but it already has mainline service, and has always been popular with tourists, in season.

Perhaps for many places, the thirty seater may be the optimum aircraft for Australian regional service.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
A342
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 11):
Who said the US services would come under the existing Virgin Blue brand? It could well be a VS-type full-service carrier for all we know, and I believe they have been making noises about looking at names and standards of service etc for the US route.

Maybe Virgin Pacific ?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 25):
Maybe Virgin Pacific ?

Um - Pacific Blue? That was set up for Virgin Blue's international services - NZ, Fji, Samoa, etc.

Or - Polynesian Blue?

cheers

mariner
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jacobin777
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:57 am

Antares,

I'm not so sure if it really has any business to do with SQ directly...if SQ doesn't want to lease planes to DJ, then DJ might be able to get leases from somewhere else...at least that is my understading of the situation....I'm not sure if the article was talking about Temasek Holdings/SQ buying into a part of DJ, I think it was refering to the cap of Australian aviation companies in general.....

fair use excerpt:

"The Australian airline landscape is set for some dramatic changes after the country's dominant port operator, Patrick Corp., which has a 62.4% stake in Virgin Blue, accepted Friday a A$6.20 billion ($4.52 billion) takeover bid from Australia's Toll Holdings (ATWOnline, August 24, 2005).The deal ends an 18-month battle and could lead to a reshaping of the major operators' ownership structure and strategies.

..........Richard Branson's Virgin Group founded Virgin Blue in 1999 and has a 25.6% stake in the airline, with the balance in public hands. It sold a 50% stake to Patrick in 2002 for $260 million, but the relationship soured after the airline floated in December 2003."**

atwonline.com


IIRC, I read that Sir Richard really would like DJ to have the ability have daily flights to the United States before DJ decides to go for it.......
"Up the Irons!"
 
A342
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
Um - Pacific Blue? That was set up for Virgin Blue's international services - NZ, Fji, Samoa, etc.

Maybe.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
Or - Polynesian Blue?

Definitely not.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:27 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 28):
Maybe.

It may be a bit more than maybe, since they are - or were - unable to use the Virgin Blue name outside Australia.

Which is why Pacific Blue was set up.

Quoting A342 (Reply 28):
Definitely not.

Why? There could be some considerable advantages to using Polynesian Blue.

They are limited, at leats in the early days, to the number of Australia/US frequencies they could provide.

Because of the Samoan government shareholding, Polynesian Blue may be able to avoid that issue.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:57 am

IF DJ starts service to the US, will F class exist? I'd imagine a C class. Btw, I hope Y is all leather. Will Jetstars be all leather?

Hunter
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Stitch
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:08 am

If DJ is interested in the 772LR, it strikes me they would want it because the model can carry a full load between Australia and the US where the 772ER (and even the 744ER) can be payload limited if the winds are unfavorable.

Though I seem to recall someone from Down Under (Antares?) noting that SYD might not have sufficient runway to get a fully-loaded 772LR into the air 365 days a year...

[Edited 2006-08-23 00:09:38]
 
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zeke
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:23 am

From what I hear the EMB will be given the nod, with an order of 9 being likely. Routes like Hobart-Newcastle will be the go.

Pay, Capts slightly more than 737 FO, FO less than 737 FO.

The VB international team was established some time back, I have not heard they have come to any positive outcomes to date.
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antares
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:53 am

Stitch,

I was told the MTOW at 38 C up to 45 C is not on at Sydney for the 777-200LR. At those temperatures I'm sure quite a few other flights would be seriously constrained as well. As the world gets warmer carriers and manufacturers will have to reconsider what they do and I think that airports where there is also an altitude issue will suffer more.

If its not one flaming thing it seems to be another these days. Oil, criminal attacks, take off temperatures, you name it. These are all external factors that are messing up aviation big time.

Antares
 
Unicorn
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:59 am

Hmmm, Embraer have been trying to sell the E170-195 family into Australia for a number of years.

They have always seen QantasLink as the natural customer, replacing the BAe146.

Virgin Blue is unlikely to go down the route pioneered by Jet Blue of using the E Jets for smaller routes that don't work for a 737, simply because the "smaller cities" that Jet Blue flies E Jets to are vastly larger than the Australian non-capital city destinations that are not well serviced by the current VB 737 fleet.

In addition the costs of acquiring and operating a second fleet type would almost certainly outweigh the benefits.

For example Virgin Blue operates a 737-700s to Coffs Harbour (a popular leisure destination) from Sydney with 70% load factors, twice a day. Qantas operates five flights a day Sydney-Coffs with Dash 8-300s at about 70% load factor.

There is probably not enough traffic to support replacing the single 737 flight with two or three E-170 flights. If there was more traffic either Virgin Blue or QantasLink would have increased their flights. This is true of many of the smaller destinations that Virgin Blue supports with one or at most two flights a day.

In addition, Virgin Blue operates 22 737-700's and 25 737-800's with 13 on order and options for 33 more. Hardly likely in a time of vastly increased fuel costs and a long haul fleet plan that they will also take on an expensive acquisition plan for smaller aircraft.

As for the 777 fleet, lets look at what was reported.

Virgin Blue has issued a request for proposals (RFP) for long-haul aircraft because in 2008 it plans to launch scheduled passenger services from Australia to the USA.

A Virgin Blue spokesperson confirms the RFP has been issued and says “we are looking at all aircraft capable of operating the trans-Pacific route including the” Airbus A340 and Boeing 777.

She declines to say specifically how many aircraft the RFP is for but adds that Boeing 737-700/800 operator Virgin Blue is looking to buy “possibly up to five in the short term and more longer term”.

When asked if it wants the first purchased aircraft delivered in 2008, the spokeswoman says it needs the aircraft “at least” in 2008.

Virgin Blue declined to rule out the possibility it might launch the international services to the USA using leased aircraft prior to delivery of the first aircraft on order.

***

Thus it could be either A340 or 777, the timing is all wrong for 787 or A350.

I am sure that Airbus will pull out all stops to break into what has hitherto been an all Boeing fleet, while Boeing would like to keep VB as an exclusive customer.

It should also be remembered that the airline will almost certainly not carry the Virgin name given the existing agreement with shareholder Singapore Arlines. Look for either the expansion of the Pacific Blue name or perhaps Blue Planet Airlines.

Flights to the US will also allow the airline to link in with Virgin Atlantic's flights from the UK and Virgin America's flights (if/when VA gets off the ground).

Oh, one more thing, trans-Pacific is only the start, if they can get it off the ground, then they will be looking at additional routes from Australia to other destinations.

Unicorn
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:22 am

Quoting Unicorn (Reply 34):
A Virgin Blue spokesperson confirms the RFP has been issued and says “we are looking at all aircraft capable of operating the trans-Pacific route including the” Airbus A340 and Boeing 777.

I remember reading this somewhere too, except the DJ staff quoted it was a toss-up between the A340 and 777 ... which does makes sense.

Quoting Unicorn (Reply 34):
Flights to the US will also allow the airline to link in with Virgin Atlantic's flights from the UK and Virgin America's flights (if/when VA gets off the ground).

I have thought about this too ... if they can get all the Virgin branded airlines working together they'd have a great trans-Pacific network to rival QF/AA and far better than that what UA & AC can have access to.
4 Engines 4 LongHaul
 
jacobin777
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:34 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 31):

Though I seem to recall someone from Down Under (Antares?) noting that SYD might not have sufficient runway to get a fully-loaded 772LR into the air 365 days a year...

More than long enough, even during the hot weather...
"Up the Irons!"
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:38 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 36):
More than long enough, even during the hot weather...

{ checkmark }

If a 747-400 can get airborne with a full load, a 777LR can get airborne with a full load.

MCOflyer
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B787
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 11):
Who said the US services would come under the existing Virgin Blue brand? It could well be a VS-type full-service carrier for all we know, and I believe they have been making noises about looking at names and standards of service etc for the US route.

True, I recall reading in a thread on this web site that the 'Virgin' brand is not allowed to be employed on any other international carrier as per an agreement with SQ from when they bought into Virgin Atlantic. This is why DJs pacific operations are flown under the banner of Pacific Blue and not Virgin Pacific. Is this correct?

As for where will they fly to in the States? Surely San Francisco is logical isn't it? Particularly with the impending start of Virgin America who are based there. Perhaps we'll see 777-300ERs flying from BNE to SFC (base to base).

As for the Embraers. Yes we need an alternative to QF on the thin routes. Antares is right. CBR suffers from choice, and flights to/from CBR are expensive, but it's not just CBR that suffers. There are plenty of other sectors that need DJ to step up competition. If the DJ can make the Embraers work profitably, then bring them on.... please!
 
jacobin777
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting B787 (Reply 38):
True, I recall reading in a thread on this web site that the 'Virgin' brand is not allowed to be employed on any other international carrier as per an agreement with SQ from when they bought into Virgin Atlantic. This is why DJs pacific operations are flown under the banner of Pacific Blue and not Virgin Pacific. Is this correct?

Would that be anything associated with the "Virgin" brand out of Australia, because we do see "Virgin" America.....granted it hasn't taken off yet, but it does exist....
"Up the Irons!"
 
antares
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:51 am

Jacobin777,

More than long enough for this forum but not the carriers. Similar result when this forum declared the Worldliner capable of Sydney to Heathrow non-stop. It didn't even come close when Qantas dissected it.

The hot spell of last summer caused temperature diversions at Sydney, and damned good source at Qantas said that Boeing had been asked to recalculate all of the field lengths it had quoted.

It is important to acknowledge that Qantas really, badly, truly wanted the 777-200LR to meet its requirements. It was aching to buy this jet. It has enormous respect for the design. And for its shareholders. These two requirements proved incompatible.

If as mentioned in other threads from time to time Boeing can produce an even better version of this jet Qantas will again be ready to buy. The qualification then will not be the technical case but the business case, as in having enough customers. I've learned to be cautious about future demand. The variability of potential demand is such that circumstances may be either much more favourable to the use of the jet in say 2010 than now, or truly awful. I wish I knew which, as a lot more than a new jet on a new route depends on that answer.

Similarly Qantas is fervently in love with the 787-9, and it will be applying enormous but I assume welcome pressure on Boeing to wring every last bit of performance out that jet it can.

Antares
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:10 am

Quoting Unicorn (Reply 34):
Thus it could be either A340 or 777, the timing is all wrong for 787 or A350.

And there's currently quite a few A340's in the second hand market. Could be a great stop-gap until the 787 or A350.

With regard to EMB E-Jets in Australia, it would be perfect for developing secondary routes as well as off-peak flights on peak routes to keep frequency up. The other natural market I see is for developing the trunk domestic routes in New Zealand to service their trans-Tasman flights. This would also allow them to implement more trans-Tasman and Pacific flights out (of WLG especially).

Regards
MH

[Edited 2006-08-23 02:18:52]
come visit the south pacific
 
jacobin777
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:12 am

Antares..

True, the -200LR didn't come close as originally planned the way QF wanted it...that being said..it was quite some time ago..as you properly mentioned, last summer..

-the flight testing actually performed better than anticipated....in fact, it could have flown even further during its record flight, but because of the fact the crew/management already given their flight information, anything longer wouldn't have been accepted by the "Worlds Record" committee......the GE's performed better than anticipated....

-Boeing is still going through the campaign of lowering the weight of the 777's....there have been some reports of a 6-7 ton reduction in weight...

-as the 787 becomes more refined, expect to see even more 787 technologies implemented into the 777 series..

-after the release of the A350XWB recently, Boeing management has stated they plan on reducing the weight of the 777 to make it more competitive than the 350XWB

-the business case is actually a technical case..because technically, the 777-200LR can do SYD-LHR, but not feasibly given the current technical specs of the -200LR...I'm glad QF is pushing Boeing to get the plane to the standards QF want's..that's good business for both QF and Boeing....

-unless a complany (in this case QF) wants to be left behind, it must take risks on new technologies....SQ has and it has rewarded them well...I'm glad to see QF push Boeing on the 787's too..it will only improve the sale of Boeing planes and provide better economics for QF...

I agree with being cautious, and that is why I've been over and over saying that the 787 will be the workhorse for QF....given world/political, and more important.... economic scenerios (which I'm more concerned of each and every day), its better QF have a large fleet of 787's as opposed to a large fleet of A380s or 747's......this provides them with fleet flexibility in many different scenerious...

cheers..
"Up the Irons!"
 
antares
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:31 am

I would be interested to hear from fuel experts on the consequences for jets in and their fuel farms in particular when the external temperature reaches 44 C for three or four days, over for longer. I didn't pay much attention to the more technical aspects of things I was told about the Qantas evaluation, because to be honest, I couldn't understand them, but I think there may have been a problem in fitting in the fuel actually needed for a full fuel load. the planning did include towing the jet all the way to either end of the long runway and starting the engine there.

I have seen this done before, in Los Angeles and at Rio Galleogos and one a Qantas around the world charter tour when we departed Honolulu for I think Santiago in a classic. The captain said the jet would literally leak fuel from the wing tips while it was readied for take off, and it was a helluva long take off too.

Antares
 
jacobin777
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:52 am

Quoting Antares (Reply 43):
I would be interested to hear from fuel experts on the consequences for jets in and their fuel farms in particular when the external temperature reaches 44 C for three or four days, over for longer. I didn't pay much attention to the more technical aspects of things I was told about the Qantas evaluation, because to be honest, I couldn't understand them, but I think there may have been a problem in fitting in the fuel actually needed for a full fuel load. the planning did include towing the jet all the way to either end of the long runway and starting the engine there

I had that data a while ago, but I have no idea where I put it... Sad

maybe the websites of some of the engine manufacturers (or engine guru A.netters such as Lightsaber) would provide better information...

however...given that EK have purchased a few -200LR's and given how Dubai is, especially during summers, when the daily temperatures reach 45-48 celcius, I'll put my faith in it..

SYD's 16R/34L runways is just a tad shorter than DXB's.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
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zeke
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:56 am

Quoting Antares (Reply 43):
I would be interested to hear from fuel experts on the consequences for jets in and their fuel farms in particular when the external temperature reaches 44 C for three or four days, over for longer. I didn't pay much attention to the more technical aspects of things I was told about the Qantas evaluation, because to be honest, I couldn't understand them, but I think there may have been a problem in fitting in the fuel actually needed for a full fuel load. the planning did include towing the jet all the way to either end of the long runway and starting the engine there.

Hotter is gets the SG reduces, less mass of fuel in the tank for a given volume, fuel cools in the climb and cruise, less volume, higher SG.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
antares
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:58 am

Thanks Jacobin, I will follow that up but not likely this week. Its a nagging question. I also think I misunderstood the take-off issue at Sydney, in that of course the jets will take off in very hot conditions, but not with as much payload.

Imagine the announcement, Hullo passenger, glad to have you on board. Good thing you were the first to book. Everyone else is being rebooked.

Antares
 
jacobin777
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:43 am

Quoting Antares (Reply 46):
Thanks Jacobin, I will follow that up but not likely this week. Its a nagging question. I also think I misunderstood the take-off issue at Sydney, in that of course the jets will take off in very hot conditions, but not with as much payload.

I've been checking up on GE's website, haven't been able to find anything yet..but I sure would like to get some kind of graph of range/temp for different planes..especially the 777's....

I know BA's GE GE90-85B 777-200IGWs fly approximately 300 more kilometers of range when departing at night/dusk rather than the day..and about 250 extra kilometers for their RR Trent 895's

The payload situation is the biggest problem so far QF have with the -200LR...

while the 777-200LR has better payload capabilities (meaning."economics") than the A345 (the A345 is weight restricted, where as the -200LR is fuel/volume restricted)..it still isn't enough to satisfy QF for what they want it to achieve..

I think if Boeing can get the weight reduced by 6-7 tons as they say they might, then I think there is a good shot at QF getting the 777-200LR...

Boeing has changed their website of the technical specs for the -200LR for "typical" missions...IIRC, it was once SYD-LHR, now its PER-LHR in typical 301 class configurations...

there was an interesting thread a while ago using Widebodyphotogs data..from his data, it was perceived that the -200LR would be able to decently provide QF LHR-SYD year round nonstop services and SYD-LHR 9 months of the year....but once again, the economics isnt' up to QF's needs...and other posters here are correct that QF will not probably order the -200LR just to open JFK/DFW.....

Quoting Antares (Reply 46):
Imagine the announcement, Hullo passenger, glad to have you on board. Good thing you were the first to book. Everyone else is being rebooked.

I'm sure (I hope) QF does better at fleet/yield management than that... spin ..

Quoting Zeke (Reply 45):
Hotter is gets the SG reduces, less mass of fuel in the tank for a given volume, fuel cools in the climb and cruise, less volume, higher SG.

 checkmark .....
"Up the Irons!"
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:55 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
Um - Pacific Blue? That was set up for Virgin Blue's international services - NZ, Fji, Samoa, etc.

Or - Polynesian Blue?

Pacific Blue does not serve APW, Samoa. This is served by Polynesian Blue, the JV between Virgin Blue and the government of Samoa.

BTW, I think Virgin Pacific would be the perfect name for a full-service long-haul Virgin product on this side of the world. And this to coincide with Virgin-Atlantic joining the Star Alliance (I hope).

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin Blue's New Embraer And 777 Fleet?

Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:37 am

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 48):
Pacific Blue does not serve APW, Samoa. This is served by Polynesian Blue, the JV between Virgin Blue and the government of Samoa.

Yes, my mistake. The mind said Rarotonga, the fingers typed Samoa.

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 48):
I think Virgin Pacific would be the perfect name for a full-service long-haul Virgin product on this side of the world.

I'm sure they think so too, but there remains the problem of Singapore Airlines.

It is my understanding that the Australian airline may not use the Virgin name outside Australia.

Thus the creation of Pacific Blue.

http://www.flypacificblue.com/travelhappy/

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta