102IAHexpress
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AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:20 pm

http://www.flytochinaonaa.com/

Will CO, UA and NW launch similar marketing campaings?
 
Delta4eva
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:26 pm

That's so ridiculous....."help us open the first route from the South to China".....isn't that what they were up against just 2 years ago when AA was competing against DL's ATL-PEK with their ORD-PVG?

I think it is lame that DL can't compete in this latest round of authorities.
FLY DELTA JETS
 
style
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:33 pm

Its a new low in my book. To ask people to write off on electronic letters to DOT. If a customer wants to show his support he can write to his congressman and take it upon himself.

This is something AA needs to accomplish on its own. Although, an idea is an idea after all.
 
qqflyboy
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:21 pm

Quoting Style (Reply 2):
Its a new low in my book

No, it's a saavy yet simple way to give people a way to support something they may find important or potentially useful. It also gives AA an easy way to make people more aware of the process and bring light to something most people aren't aware of. They had a similar website in place when they won the right to fly to Shanghai. It just might work again.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:32 pm

Quoting Style (Reply 2):
Its a new low in my book. To ask people to write off on electronic letters to DOT. If a customer wants to show his support he can write to his congressman and take it upon himself.

This is something AA needs to accomplish on its own. Although, an idea is an idea after all.

New low? Give me a break! If you want to call it a low (when in reality is good marketing that will support their application demonstrating a true desire to fly the route), fine. Don't call it new. Delta launched a similar and very aggressive marketing effort in 2004, which included a website where customers could submit...get this...electronic letters to DOT!
a.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:35 pm

Personally, I take my hat off to them for coming up with the idea, although, if they really felt that strongly about the routes importance, would they really need that support and more importantly do the DOT, really take notice of this kind of thing when making their decision??
 
elmothehobo
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:52 pm

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 1):

Based on your name alone I can see why you think it's lame. Delta's bid had little going for it. Atlanta isn't well placed for traffic to China, and there is very limited O/D traffic between Atlanta and Beijing to start with. Yes there is a market, but it is tiny.

American's flight just might work considering North Texas' growing ties with China, ties that just don't exist between Atlanta, let alone Georgia a whole and China.

But will agree that it's a shame that Delta can't compete.

I'm also disappointed the DoT is doing the 14 slot alotment over a two year period again. They should hand out the slots for use at the carrier's discretion, not one year after the first incumbent launches their flight.
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:54 pm

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 6):
Based on your name alone I can see why you think it's lame. Delta's bid had little going for it. Atlanta isn't well placed for traffic to China, and there is very limited O/D traffic between Atlanta and Beijing to start with. Yes there is a market, but it is tiny.

Taking into consideration the fact that flight distances from most locations east of the Mississippi River to Beijing are shorter over Atlanta than they are over Dallas, I'd say your statement about the relative lack of traffic Delta would attract with an ATL-PEK service is totally unfounded.

Furthermore, Delta has already proven time and time again that business ties between Atlanta and points outside the United States quickly develop and flourish once nonstop service is added. Delta's completely homegrown expansion from a nonentity in the Latin America market to a very strong #3 speaks volumes about the potential not only of the ATL hub, but also of how quickly Georgia is growing: a 26% population increase in the 1990's, and growing diversity.

It is entertaining to see AA touting their newfound desire to open up the Southeast to nonstop China service in light of the way they disparaged DL's application for ATL-PEK back in 2004.

[Edited 2006-08-22 12:05:00]
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:02 am

All in all AA has made a nice website; simple to navigate, simple html, useful forms. But I wonder if the map titled Connecting You to China is misleading.
I don’t know much about flight paths, but assuming the flight path to China will be polar, wouldn’t most of those red dots be better served connecting at ORD or EWR?
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:09 am

Is this a joke?

I can't connect to the server!
When I doubt... go running!
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 9):
Is this a joke?

Nope.

Quote:
FORT WORTH, Texas – American Airlines today launched a special public Web site in support of its application to open nonstop service to Beijing from DFW International Airport in March 2007 and is calling for support from individual travelers, domestic and international businesses, cargo shipping companies and others to take action for this competitive bid.

The site – www.flytochinaonaa.com – will enable travelers, business owners, AA employees and city and civic leaders to easily express their support for American’s application, as well as get detailed information about the proposed route. This bid process is highly competitive with multiple carriers vying for just one route from the United States to China. Only American chose to submit a bid for a route originating in the southern U.S. - an area of the country with no nonstop service to China. Public support is needed to augment American's application to the United States Department of Transportation, and names from the electronic petition will be packaged with American's application to help influence the ultimate awarding of the route.

"We are calling on our millions of loyal customers and the flying public at large to support American's application for the DFW to Beijing daily nonstop route. The ultimate decision about the next U.S.-to-China route will be made by the Department of Transportation early next year,” said Will Ris, American's Senior Vice President of Government Affairs. “Acquiring the route would generate an estimated $120 million to upwards of $200 million annual economic benefit for the North Texas region and it would be the first-ever southern city gateway to China.”

According to Ris, the route would deliver benefits to a vast majority of the U.S. population.

“Passengers in 33 states, or approximately 80 percent of the U.S. mainland population, would benefit from the American route from DFW to Beijing,” said Ris. “DFW is American’s largest hub where we operate approximately 800 daily departures with service to 129 domestic destinations. The new international route would add 30 new cities that would for the first time benefit from one-stop connections through DFW to Beijing."

Sixty-one of those domestic destinations have flights which would allow for an easy connection with no overnight stay. Once travelers arrive in Beijing, there are 21 additional connection opportunities throughout interior China on American's codeshare partner, China Eastern Airlines.

This route would open up substantial business opportunities and job growth possibilities with daily cargo and shipping opportunities, convenient connection schedules and a new portal for importing and exporting goods to and from mainland China.

Currently, there are only three U.S. gateways to China and none are in the southern part of the U.S. The existing gateways include Chicago, Newark and San Francisco. American Airlines currently offers direct service to only one destination in China, via its Chicago-Shanghai service, which launched earlier this year.

“Opening DFW Airport to China travel only makes sense since dozens of cities and millions of people already connect directly to DFW,” said Ris. “People and businesses in the southern and southwestern United States deserve the opportunity for a daily nonstop or one-stop route to China that has not been readily available to them in the past.”

American is providing a link on the www.flytochinaonaa.com Web site that will allow the public to send a letter of support directly to the Department of Transportation. It also enables people to send information about the potential new route to friends, family and associates. The electronic petition can be signed in a few easy steps, and a link will enable petition signers to forward the site to friends, co-workers, and others so they can sign as well.
 
AA767400
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 1):
That's so ridiculous.....

No, DL's 8 777s is ridiculous. What are they going to do, pull the plug on BOM,TLV, or NRT?
"The low fares airline."
 
Delta4eva
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 11):

No, DL's 8 777s is ridiculous. What are they going to do, pull the plug on BOM,TLV, or NRT?

No, why don't you work out the aircraft utilization before you make a comment like that. 3 777s used for ATL-TLV and ATL-NRT. 2 777s used for JFK-BOM. That leaves 3 777. Two will be needed for ATL-PEK and an extra can be either used as a spare or added to JFK-BOM to make a JFK-NRT flight with both routes can be done w/ 3 aircraft.

And that's not including the 777s that DL will be taking delivery of in the next 2 years....but you (and half the other people on this forum) will probably say that that is rediculous too because DL is in bankruptcy. I also think that it's rediculous how close AA is with those fellows up in Washington DC, and that being the sole reason why AA got ORD-PVG in the first place.

AA can't even make DFW-KIX flight work out....and their tendancy to be slowly removing all of their Asia flying doesn't help their cause either.
FLY DELTA JETS
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 12):
to make a JFK-NRT flight with both routes can be done w/ 3 aircraft.

Delta can't do JFK-NRT. They lost the rights to that and LAX-NRT to American Airlines.

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 12):
AA can't even make DFW-KIX flight work out....and their tendancy to be slowly removing all of their Asia flying doesn't help their cause either.

Huge difference between Dallas-Osaka and Dallas-Beijing. Huge. Of course, Delta couldn't make Chennai work out, nor JFK-NRT, LAX-NRT, PDX-NRT, PDX-TPE, LAX-HKG, JFK-NRT (I'll stop, though of course, there is more). So I guess that means that wouldn't help Delta's cause either, according to your theory? Wrong. It really won't hurt AA that they have dropped out of some Asia markets recently. DOT knows that US-China routes print money. It is not a question of whether or not an airline will be successful with their proposal: they will be. The question is the best use for their
proposal.

AA's proposal is the strongest. The DOT perfers airlines with less dominance in the region and opening up a new US gateway/region to China. And look what the four proposals are bringing:


    *Northwest - 0/2 -They have 21 China flights and are not opening a new gateway.
    *United Airlines - 1/2 - They have 28 China flights, but are opening a new gateway, plus will get good political clout.
    *Continental Airlines 1/2 - They only have 7 China flights, but already fly Newark-China.
    *American Airlines 2/2 - They have only 7 China flights and are opening up the only US-China flights from the Southeast. While that didn't help Delta's proposal, that was when there were other markets taking priority.


It will likely go, IMO, to AA or UA.

[Edited 2006-08-22 22:54:25]
a.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
The DOT perfers airlines with less dominance in the region and opening up a new US gateway/region to China.

I don’t know, then why did the DoT award AA seven frequencies the last go around? The route AA was awarded only served to duplicate an existing service from an established gateway.

IMO if the DoT didn’t approve DL route from ATL the last go around, they would be consistent in not approving AA application this time either.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 14):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
The DOT perfers airlines with less dominance in the region and opening up a new US gateway/region to China.

I don’t know, then why did the DoT award AA seven frequencies the last go around? The route AA was awarded only served to duplicate an existing service from an established gateway.

To provide competitive service on a busy US-China route from a centrally located hub that provides beneficial connections from all the continental US.

There is no set formula to what the DOT will and will not approve. If there was, then we wouldn't need to all make guesses.
a.
 
deltaguy767
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:58 am

I hope that AA doesn't receive the slots. They aren't committed to a strong international expansion and aren't on the books for longer range aircraft further showing the previous point. Even though DL doesn't have the a/c to implement ATL-PEK at this time, they have shown a commitment towards European and later Asian markets. AA already has some slots and should be grateful for what they have. I say give the slots to CO as they are on the books for 787's,have shown expansion,are profitable,established in Asia,and are highly rated as perhaps overtaking UA/AA as the US's most recognizable carrier abroad. Then when the next set of slots open up, when DL is out of BK, and has some a/c that can handle the route, then give some slots to them.

Just my  twocents 

Cheers from BDL,  wave 
DeltaGuy767
A Good Landing is one you walk away from!
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 16):
aren't on the books for longer range aircraft further showing the previous point.

Really? Why don't you check AA's order books, see how you are wrong, and then get back to us on that comment.

[Edited 2006-08-23 00:07:11]
a.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
There is no set formula to what the DOT will and will not approve.

True
But the best indicator of future behavior is previous behavior.

It should be restated that DL application would have provided massive feed into the largest hub on Earth and open up a Southern gateway, yet it was denied.
So, how is AA current application from a smaller hub also in the South, any stronger than DL denied application?
 
BigGSFO
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 18):
It should be restated that DL application would have provided massive feed into the largest hub on Earth and open up a Southern gateway, yet it was denied.

It was denied because at the time, the DOT considered the weakest arguement for China service.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 18):
So, how is AA current application from a smaller hub also in the South, any stronger than DL denied application?

Hub size is not the sole deciding factor with these awards. A couple of things come to mind, and of course, these are my opinions:
1. So what if ATL is larger than DFW? The number of flights is not relevant in this arguement. What matters is the number of communities who will benefit from one-stop service to China and that there is a justifiable reason that these particular communities are disadvantaged currently. Does the DOT care that DL can provide one-stop Macon-Peking? Probably not unless the need is demonstarted.
2. O&D: this is probably are larger factor than item #1. Arguably Texas has a greater need for diect China service than Georgia - the business ties alone between DFW and China could warrent the flight altogether. Remember - CO is not seeking approval for Houston - AA's bid is the only from the state. Thus AA's application is coming from a new region: the South/southeast (whatever region you want to put it in). UA and CO's gateways 100 or so miles apart. AA was smart to ask for Chicago first, then Dallas. They probably figured if they were awarded Chicago first over Atlanta, that their Dallas bid would be stronger in the second round, which it is.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:15 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 19):
The number of flights is not relevant in this arguement. What matters is the number of communities who will benefit from one-stop service to China and that there is a justifiable reason that these particular communities are disadvantaged currently.

Agreed.
This will benefit CO, as they can just as easily argue that the number of flights from DFW is also not relevant.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 19):
O&D: this is probably are larger factor than item #1.

Agreed
This will also benefit CO, as they can just as easily argue that, the O&D of Americas business capital and it’s underserved link between China’s business capital is more significant than what little O&D may or may not exist in North Texas.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:21 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 18):
It should be restated that DL application would have provided massive feed into the largest hub on Earth and open up a Southern gateway, yet it was denied.
So, how is AA current application from a smaller hub also in the South, any stronger than DL denied application?

Because you have to weight it against the other options. Compared to CO and AA's application, DL's was weakest.

Compared to UA, NW, and CO's applications, AA's is, arguably, strongest.

You can't compare the needs of 2004 with those of 2006. In 2004, there were more important gaps to fill in the US-China market than opening a Southern gateway - namely what was awarded: a competing service on a key route and service from New York City. Now, opening a Southern gateway is a higher priority, especially when you compare it to what the other three applications offer.
a.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:25 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 20):
Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 19):
The number of flights is not relevant in this arguement. What matters is the number of communities who will benefit from one-stop service to China and that there is a justifiable reason that these particular communities are disadvantaged currently.

Agreed.
This will benefit CO, as they can just as easily argue that the number of flights from DFW is also not relevant.

You agree with him, yet then you say the opposite of what he said. The number of flights isn't the issue. It is the number of new gateways open to new one-stop/quicker China flights that matters. AA wins this argument over everbody else, hands down.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 20):
Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 19):
O&D: this is probably are larger factor than item #1.

Agreed
This will also benefit CO, as they can just as easily argue that, the O&D of Americas business capital and it’s underserved link between China’s business capital is more significant than what little O&D may or may not exist in North Texas.

O&D between China and Texas is not so insigificant that it will strongly disadvantage AA's application. The fact that CO already flies EWR-PEK and EWR-HKG will hurt them more than the lack of O&D will hurt AA.
a.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22):
You agree with him, yet then you say the opposite of what he said. The number of flights isn't the issue. It is the number of new gateways open to new one-stop/quicker China flights that matters. AA wins this argument over everbody else, hands down.

Actually no. The DoT was right, in that they rightly denied DL massive feed argument. So if the DoT past decisions are any indication of their future decisions, then they will also rightly deny AA massive feed argument this time as well.

If anything you’re agreeing with me, that number of flights feeding into a hub does not matter. Big grin

[Edited 2006-08-23 01:39:38]
 
deltaguy767
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Really? Why don't you check AA's order books, see how you are wrong, and then get back to us on that comment.

Wow, someone is a little ill tempered. Gee I'm sorry for not being more detailed in my research, but I don't think that attitude is warranted. Ok so I made an honest mistake, the right and mature thing to do would be to point it out in a less antagonistic attitude. I don't think this forum was meant to antagonize members who made a mistake, like those who say HP as American West. When somebody does that, everybody jumps all over him. I only hope that maybe this animosity to those who make errors on this forum can be suppressed.

Best Regards from BDL,  wave 
DeltaGuy767
A Good Landing is one you walk away from!
 
CXA330300
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:06 am

Isn't it more logical to have an EWR-PVG flight? The potential market (Shanghai and New York are major financial centres, there's a huge tourism and VFR market in the NE, connections to much of the South, NE, and Eastern Canada are possible) is much bigger.
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
corey07850
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:11 am

CO is doing the same, albeit not on a public site.... They have this on the employee site's homepage:

"CO is competing for DOT authority to operate New York/Newark – Shanghai (PVG) service in 2007. Employee letters of support improve Continental’s chances when DOT considers competing route applications, which will be the case in 2007. An example letter is attached here, and employees are asked to mail their signed and addressed letter back to Dan Weiss through internal mail at HQSGV. As Government Affairs needs copies of all letters for legal purposes, employees are asked to not mail letters directly to DOT. Letters are requested by September 21, 2006."
 
CXA330300
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:00 am

Isn't it more logical to have an EWR-PVG flight? The potential market (Shanghai and New York are major financial centres, there's a huge tourism and VFR market in the NE, connections to much of the South, NE, and Eastern Canada are possible) is much bigger.
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
ssides
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 12):
AA can't even make DFW-KIX flight work out....and their tendancy to be slowly removing all of their Asia flying doesn't help their cause either.

Well, DL's bankruptcy and tendency to tinker with all-out liquidation doesn't help its cause.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 5):
Personally, I take my hat off to them for coming up with the idea, although, if they really felt that strongly about the routes importance, would they really need that support and more importantly do the DOT, really take notice of this kind of thing when making their decision??

Frankly, it's a nice way to get your employees involved, but the DOT assumes that every employee of each airline supports new route applications. Whether no employees, 1 employee, or 30,000 employees write to the DOT in support of an application, I guarantee you it makes ZERO difference to the DOT and has NO effect on which airline receives route authority.
 
elmothehobo
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 16):
They aren't committed to a strong international expansion and aren't on the books for longer range aircraft further showing the previous point

American doesn't need to order anymore aircraft to operate a DFW-PEK flight. AA will have a couple of 777 they could move to Beijing. Remember American has dropped DFW-KIX, SJC-NRT, ORD-GLA, and BOS-CDG while temporarily upgrading JFK-EZE and MIA-EZE. With JFK-EZE a 767 in April of 2007 (they can also move up the downgrade date), AA will have 2 777s to operate DFW-PEK with.

American is on the books for more 777-200/ERs, though they have been defered to 2013.
 
commavia
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 16):
I hope that AA doesn't receive the slots. They aren't committed to a strong international expansion and aren't on the books for longer range aircraft further showing the previous point.

So now the DoT is in the business of picking which airlines are truly "committed to a strong international expansion?" Sorry, must have missed that paragraph in the last congressional funding reauthorization. Nonetheless, that is completely and totally laughable. DoT's job is not to pick which airlines are the most "committed," it is to pick the ones that will provide the most convenience and competition in a given market. Believe me, I wish it were all Open Skies so the DoT wouldn't even have the power to do that (as I don't think any government agency should ever be in the business of picking winners and losers in a free market), but the reality is that gauging "committment" is sort of like gauging "talent" or "ambition." Everyone has their own opinion, and it is highly subjective.

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 16):
Even though DL doesn't have the a/c to implement ATL-PEK at this time, they have shown a commitment towards European and later Asian markets.

What committment to Asia, exactly, are we talking about here? Delta has a single daily flight to the Far East, one flight per day. American has eight (soon to be six). But at least American has tried. They tried out ORD-NGO and DFW-KIX in the last three years. What has Delta been doing? Oh, that's right, they aren't as "committed" to Asia as American is, right?

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 16):
I say give the slots to CO as they are on the books for 787's,have shown expansion,are profitable,established in Asia,and are highly rated as perhaps overtaking UA/AA as the US's most recognizable carrier abroad.

American's profitable, American is expanding, and, kind of like measuring "committment," I think it is fairly impossible to say that Continental is or will ever be the "most recognizable carrier abroad." Sure, Continental has a well known name in Europe, Latin America and Asia, but guess what -- so does United, and so does American, and Delta, etc. United's name is probably one of the most well known among airlines in all of Asia, whereas in Latin America -- Continental's aledged "recognizability" doesn't even scratch the surface of the name recognition and market penetration American has.

And, not to mention once again, I don't believe it is the DoT's job to account for airlines' airplane orders, nor their profitability, nor the recognizability of their brand in foreign markets. Again, their job is to pick the airline that will offer the most convenience and competition in the market at hand.

[Edited 2006-08-23 19:54:32]
 
ssides
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:47 am

Kudos, Commavia.











_
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 31):
And, not to mention once again, I don't believe it is the DoT's job to account for airlines' airplane orders, nor their profitability, nor the recognizability of their brand in foreign markets. Again, their job is to pick the airline that will offer the most convenience and competition in the market at hand.

You're exactly right. All you have to do is read the Orders in route authority cases to get an appreciation for the issues that are most important. While there are ancillary issues that may be mentioned, "benefit to the consumer" is the most important issue. Of course, depending on the respective applications and how they stack up against each other, some issues may become more or less important. Having said that, all applications have their pros and cons, and at the end of the day, the DOT attempts to make the best decision it can.

There is no doubt that all three carriers, UA, CO, and AA, have put their most competitive foot forward in this application. AA clearly believed that applying from DFW (which has no China service) would be more competitive against CO then applying from ORD. CO clearly understands that NYC is the largest Chinese market in the U.S. and there is still limited nonstop service into China (CO to PEK and Air China from JFK to PEK). Finally, UA replaced SFO-CAN with IAD-PEK, which was a smart move to make them more competitive. Unfortunately for UA, they already have 28 weekly freqs into China and AA and CO only have 7.

As far as profitability, commitment to Asia, and aircraft orders go, the difference between CO and AA is most likely irrelevant in this application. UA has to be considered a long-shot because of their current service.
 
commavia
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 33):
There is no doubt that all three carriers, UA, CO, and AA, have put their most competitive foot forward in this application.

Agree 100%. Everyone in this case was extremely shrewd in their selection of which route to apply for. It has been fascinating to watch these dominos fall and see how the airlines laid down their chips.

Continental got things started off way back in April 2005 when it applied way in advance for Newark-Shanghai service. Continental hoped to play the New York angle, pointing out that New York was by far the largest U.S. city without service to Shanghai, and that Newark provided excellent connections up and down the east coast. Continental may have jumped the gun a bit, by showing its cards so early and boxing itself into a corner when it might have instead gone for a Houston-China flight, perhaps Houston-Shanghai, but nonetheless, a strong application.

Then, despite predictions of an application for Chicago-Beijing or LAX-Beijing service, American applied for a flight from D/FW, a completely new gateway to China and the second largest airline hub in the U.S., to Beijing, a city that airline currently does not serve. This application already had some momentum vis-a-vis Continental's as it involved a completely new U.S. gateway, serving a completely new region of the country for China service. American knew that it had to combat Contiental's plausible and valid argument that the New York Tri-State metro area was too big a market to ignore when assigning more service. Smart move.

Then United surprised everyone by altering the application they put in the first time around for SFO-CAN, which would have linked a huge market nonstop for the first time and opened up CAN to the U.S. market nonstop for the first time ever by a U.S. carrier. Instead, they chose IAD-Beijing, no doubt in part because they knew this route would garner more political clout and support, and because they knew they had to put their best foot forward in light of the fact that their main competition for this authority are each less than 1/4 the size of United in the U.S.-China market.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 33):
As far as profitability, commitment to Asia, and aircraft orders go, the difference between CO and AA is most likely irrelevant in this application. UA has to be considered a long-shot because of their current service.

Agreed. My deductive reasoning goes like this:

Starting out, I think Northwest and United will face an uphill battle off the bat because of how heavily dominant they are in the U.S.-China market, accounting for 80% of all the seats currently offered to Mainland China by U.S. carriers.

Of these two, however, I think United's application for IAD-PEK is stronger than Northwest's for DTW-PVG, so scratch Northwest.

Down to three applicants now, I think that while United's IAD-PEK route would offer good connections across the east, and will no doubt garner political clout for linking the capital cities of these two large countries, United's already-mentioned dominance in the market will kill their chances. Scratch United.

And then there were two. Now, of the remaining two in my small 'game theory'-like scenario, American and Continental, both have merit. Continental would offer service from China's most important business capital, to the world's most important, New York, and be the first airline with nonstop New York-Shanghai service. New York also has one of the largest Chinese expat communities on Earth, another plus. However, American's application also has huge merits. It would open up a new U.S. gateway to China, and a fairly good one at that -- with almost 800 daily flights just on American/Eagle. It would link far more cities with China one-stop than Newark, and would offer nonstop China service to the southern U.S. for the first time ever. Plus, Texas has a really big, really vocal congressional delegation, and while some may be persuaded to support the other hometown carrier (Houston-based Continental), I have to think that there will be some major lobbying by the vast majority of the Texas delegation to get a nonstop flight from Texas to China and raise the state's economic profile. Another plus for American, scratch Continental.

Just a theory, and a prediction. If you disagree -- that's fine with me, but please don't flame me just because you don't like my thinking.
 
B2443
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:54 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 34):
However, American's application also has huge merits. It would open up a new U.S. gateway to China, and a fairly good one at that -- with almost 800 daily flights just on American/Eagle.

Well, out of the 800 flights, how many would be the real feeders to DFW-PEK? American Eagle flies to Peoria, IL, you probably wouldn't expect people fly down to DFW first then on to PEK, right? They'd do ORD! So the reality for picturing DFW as the major connecting point to China might just be for the folks in South and South East who travels to China. From that standpoint, EWR might be a stronger connecting point than DFW. People wouldn't have to go South then North to PEK thus saving travel time. Compare how many European services there are from DFW and from EWR, the answer may be clear: People want to connect somewhere in the north, just because it's on the way.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 34):
I have to think that there will be some major lobbying by the vast majority of the Texas delegation to get a nonstop flight from Texas to China and raise the state's economic profile.

Which route has been awarded as a result of the State delegation Size?

If the route is truely determined by "conveniences" + "economics", DOT would award EWR-PVG. Clearly, EWR regions have more ties to China culturally and economically.

Agreed though NW has little chance and UA has already 28 frequencies.
 
commavia
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting B2443 (Reply 35):
Which route has been awarded as a result of the State delegation Size?

On its own, none, but political interference always plays a part, and it can't hurt that the nation's second-largest congressional delegation happens to come from a state directly impacted by one of these applications.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 35):
f the route is truely determined by "conveniences" + "economics", DOT would award EWR-PVG.

The "economics" are debatable, and the "convenience" is as well -- after all, how convenient is it for the people living west of the Mississippi for Continental to fly from Newark to both Beijing and Shanghai? Answer: not very. It's hardly that cut and dry.
 
B2443
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 36):
how convenient is it for the people living west of the Mississippi for Continental to fly from Newark to both Beijing and Shanghai?

SFO or ORD, no? UA has them covered.

So what are DOT's criteria in awarding an airline then?
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 34):
Agreed. My deductive reasoning goes like this:

Starting out, I think Northwest and United will face an uphill battle off the bat because of how heavily dominant they are in the U.S.-China market, accounting for 80% of all the seats currently offered to Mainland China by U.S. carriers.

Of these two, however, I think United's application for IAD-PEK is stronger than Northwest's for DTW-PVG, so scratch Northwest.

Down to three applicants now, I think that while United's IAD-PEK route would offer good connections across the east, and will no doubt garner political clout for linking the capital cities of these two large countries, United's already-mentioned dominance in the market will kill their chances. Scratch United.

And then there were two. Now, of the remaining two in my small 'game theory'-like scenario, American and Continental, both have merit. Continental would offer service from China's most important business capital, to the world's most important, New York, and be the first airline with nonstop New York-Shanghai service. New York also has one of the largest Chinese expat communities on Earth, another plus. However, American's application also has huge merits. It would open up a new U.S. gateway to China, and a fairly good one at that -- with almost 800 daily flights just on American/Eagle. It would link far more cities with China one-stop than Newark, and would offer nonstop China service to the southern U.S. for the first time ever. Plus, Texas has a really big, really vocal congressional delegation, and while some may be persuaded to support the other hometown carrier (Houston-based Continental), I have to think that there will be some major lobbying by the vast majority of the Texas delegation to get a nonstop flight from Texas to China and raise the state's economic profile. Another plus for American, scratch Continental.

I absolutely agree - I believe AA has a slight edge.

As mentioned by in a previous post, CO's riff with the DOT regarding the airline ownership rule and how it relates to CO's lack of access at LHR is an intangible that cannot be overlooked, unfortunately.

Also, NW has the right to serve PVG and PEK from DTW as they were doing so pre-9/11. In their application, they state that "dismantling their Tokyo hub" (i.e. using 7 frequencies into China from DTW vs. NRT) is not an option because of West Coast feed. This is an incredibly thin argument and is borderline arrogant. Realistically, they are asking for authority to do what they currently have the authority to do. They essentially have NO CHANCE - DOT would never waste valuable China frequencies under these circumstances.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting B2443 (Reply 35):
Well, out of the 800 flights, how many would be the real feeders to DFW-PEK? American Eagle flies to Peoria, IL, you probably wouldn't expect people fly down to DFW first then on to PEK, right? They'd do ORD!

Excellent point.
IMO no matter how it’s broken down, CO EWR application benefits the most people. On the merits and facts alone, CO application is a slam dunk.
Though I’ll be the first to concede that when dealing with big politics inside the beltway, perhaps merits and facts won’t win the day.
Some say that CO has lost points in D.C. with its vocal opposition regarding foreign ownership of U.S. airlines, but using that logic AA has probably also lost some points with all the whining its done over the Wright Amendment.
In any event I hope politics will stay out of the DoT decision.
 
ssides
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 39):
IMO no matter how it’s broken down, CO EWR application benefits the most people. On the merits and facts alone, CO application is a slam dunk.

Many people in the New York area already have non-stop service to China.

That's not the case for 22 million+ Texans, along with countless millions in nearby states that would benefit from DFW-PEK over EWR-PVG.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 31):
What committment to Asia, exactly, are we talking about here? Delta has a single daily flight to the Far East, one flight per day. American has eight (soon to be six). But at least American has tried. They tried out ORD-NGO and DFW-KIX in the last three years. What has Delta been doing? Oh, that's right, they aren't as "committed" to Asia as American is, right?

If we're talking about the Far East then yes DL has shown less commitment to the region than AA. Although, I do doubt that the current leadership at DL would have been short-sighted enough to cancel both LAX-NRT and JFK-NRT.

Anyway, as I know you're well aware, Asia is far more than just the Far East and DL does offer more in terms of an Asian route network than just ATL-NRT in the form of ATL-TLV, JFK-IST, JFK-CDG-BOM (soon to be nonstop JFK-BOM), and the soon to be axed JFK-CDG-MAA.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
ssides
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 41):
Asia is far more than just the Far East and DL does offer more in terms of an Asian route network than just ATL-NRT in the form of ATL-TLV, JFK-IST, JFK-CDG-BOM (soon to be nonstop JFK-BOM), and the soon to be axed JFK-CDG-MAA.

Yes, but traffic on ATL-TLV and JFK-IST resembles European traffic much more than it resembles traditional Asian traffic.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 41):
If we're talking about the Far East then yes DL has shown less commitment to the region than AA. Although, I do doubt that the current leadership at DL would have been short-sighted enough to cancel both LAX-NRT and JFK-NRT.

Anyway, as I know you're well aware, Asia is far more than just the Far East and DL does offer more in terms of an Asian route network than just ATL-NRT in the form of ATL-TLV, JFK-IST, JFK-CDG-BOM (soon to be nonstop JFK-BOM), and the soon to be axed JFK-CDG-MAA.

Once again, commitment to Asia is irrelevant in this case because of the players (CO and AA). Having said that, it's really hard to ignore the fact that DL doesn't even serve HKG. While not serving HKG will probably not have an affect on their 2007 application, it would sure be nice to see them start or announce HKG service prior to their next China application - it's difficult to take a "commitment to China" argument seriously when HKG isn't on your route map.
 
kanebear
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 43):
Once again, commitment to Asia is irrelevant in this case because of the players (CO and AA). Having said that, it's really hard to ignore the fact that DL doesn't even serve HKG. While not serving HKG will probably not have an affect on their 2007 application, it would sure be nice to see them start or announce HKG service prior to their next China application - it's difficult to take a "commitment to China" argument seriously when HKG isn't on your route map.

AA doesn't serve HKG either. They only codeshare with CX. That said, I have to disagree with this premise entirely. HKG and China are two very different markets. One doesn't have to serve HKG to be 'serious' about China at all. DL serves HKG via Skyteam through KE so it's not as though you can't get there from here so to speak.
 
daron4000
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:44 am

So at the beginning, I thought that the DOT had 14 slots to allocate to two different carriers/routes but now, it seems like there are only 7. What is up with this? Second, does anyone think it would matter that United is offering to fly a 747, the biggest plane in the world and the biggest plane flown by any US carrier between IAD-PEK? By offering more seats on a daily basis, compared to a 777, which really is a lot smaller when you think about it, I think that might add to their argument.

United would be offering a total of 126,655 seats per year.

American would be offering a total of 90,155 (cofin) or 89,425 (Flagship suites) seats per year.

Continental would be offering a total of 103,295 seats per year.

That's a big difference in my mind
 
commavia
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 45):
I thought that the DOT had 14 slots to allocate to two different carriers/routes but now, it seems like there are only 7.

As far as I know, it was only ever for seven weekly passenger frequencies, to be awarded only to an incumbent carrier in the market (meaning American, Continental, Northwest or United).

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 45):
Second, does anyone think it would matter that United is offering to fly a 747, the biggest plane in the world and the biggest plane flown by any US carrier between IAD-PEK? By offering more seats on a daily basis, compared to a 777, which really is a lot smaller when you think about it, I think that might add to their argument.

United would be offering a total of 126,655 seats per year.

American would be offering a total of 90,155 (cofin) or 89,425 (Flagship suites) seats per year.

Continental would be offering a total of 103,295 seats per year.

That's a big difference in my mind

The last thing United wants to do is emphasize how many more seats it would have versus American and Continental. Because United is already in so much of a dominant position in the U.S.-China market as it is, the last thing they want to do is remind everyone of how much smaller American and/or Continental are and will be in these markets, regardless of who gets the 2007 route authority.

The name of the game when vying for coveted slots like these is emphasizing how much more consumer "choice" and "competitive dynamics" you'll bring to the market -- the DoT loves buzz-words like that. Saying, "we'll offer 22% more seats than our nearest competitor, in addition to the huge majority of seats we already control in the nonstop U.S.-China market among U.S. carriers" really doesn't inspire much confidence in the "choice" and "competitive dynamics" department.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Thread starter):
Will CO, UA and NW launch similar marketing campaings?

Looks like CO has set up a form on their website. Though not as flashy as AA's.

http://www.continental.com/web/en-US...D=F8064C79B66743689209144AAFEA7C01
 
B2443
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 46):
really doesn't inspire much confidence in the "choice" and "competitive dynamics" department.

I've been wondering about the DOT criteria...and yet they've never been clear.

Since MU is going to start PVG-JFK in Dec 2006, wouldn't one think CO's EWR-PVG application fits at least the "choice" and "competitive" department?
 
commavia
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RE: AA's New Website Soliciting Support For China

Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:01 am

Quoting B2443 (Reply 48):
Since MU is going to start PVG-JFK in Dec 2006, wouldn't one think CO's EWR-PVG application fits at least the "choice" and "competitive" department?

Well, it all depends on your viewpoint.

Certainly, Continental would be providing new "choice" and "competition" in the New York-Shanghai market which, at least at the moment, does not have any nonstop service, and it would be providing new "choice" and "competition" in many markets between Shanghai and cities behind Newark. Continental also can very rightly say that its application will definitely be serving the largest U.S. market of any considered in this application as, overall, it doesn't get much bigger in terms of air markets than the New York metro area.

However, others might argue that American's application would provide even more "choice" and "competition" because it provides for the first nonstop service -- ever -- between Dallas/Fort Worth and China, whereas the greater New York area already has multiple daily flights to the country, and provides the first and only nonstop service between Asia and the southeastern United States, a region currently without any nonstop service to China. Further, D/FW is a much, much larger hub than Newark is.

At the end of the day, both of these applications -- which, I believe, are the two that have the best shot at getting the slots for reasons I've already stated -- have definite merit and both would certainly benefit many, many people. It's a shame there can't just be open skies so both airlines, plus other airlines, could add as many flight as they wanted tomorrow.

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