style
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NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:34 am

USA Today has the following article posted on the travel section of its website:

NWA attendants may give fliers warnings before walkouts

Northwest Airlines' flight attendants union says it will alert travelers by e-mail before it stages the surprise walkouts it has threatened, the Detroit Free Press reports. “But don't expect much notice,” the paper adds. “The notice could be as much as a couple of hours if the union plans a full-scale walkout or short as 20 minutes -- after passengers are already at the airport -- if the union plans to strike one flight,” the paper writes, citing Association of Flight Attendants (AFA) spokesman Ricky Thornton. The AFA’s website warns that “CHAOS is coming,” but adds that the union “will endeavor to provide as much notice as possible but cannot guarantee that the notice will prevent all disruptions to your travel plans." The site also has a sign-up for a “passenger e-mail alert” that ask for fliers’ names, e-mail addresses and departure airports.

"It's an attempt to win the public's support while you're doing something that the public would be very much inconvenienced by," Gary Chaison, a professor of management at Clark University in Worcester, Mass., explains to the Free Press. Beginning as early as this Friday, Northwest’s attendants union has threatened to create targeted work disruptions known as CHAOS, or Create Havoc Around Our System. Such “mini-strikes” would be unannounced, and could affect certain flights, cities or dates. The strategy allows most attendants to keep working, but also brings a threat that the union hopes is severe enough to force management’s hand. ----- END


Definitely a sympathy tactic. Things look like they are about to get intense.
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting Style (Thread starter):
It's an attempt to win the public's support while you're doing something that the public would be very much inconvenienced by

Sorry, the attempt won't work to win my support, next.

Will they also send e-mails to my clients telling them why I'm late for my meetings?

Will they reimburse me for my lost time on the job?

Will they remember that I am a customer?


I'm sorry, but I can not be sympathetic to your cause right now.

I'm putting on my flame suit now.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
luv2fly
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
I'm sorry, but I can not be sympathetic to your cause right now.

I'm putting on my flame suit now.

I am surprised considering you yourself were a former FA and having walked in there shoes could and would feel there pain.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
CXA330300
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:46 am

Oh great............

Is it possible for them to negotiate just ONE MORE TIME?

They're not going to get sympathy.
They're going to get distaste.
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
dtwclipper
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 2):
I am surprised considering you yourself were a former FA and having walked in there shoes could and would feel there pain.

That was 20 years ago, times have changed.

It would be a different issue if the airlines survival was not a question.

NW can not afford this type of action and union mentality in an era of instability.

I'm sorry, I think they are making a strategic mistake.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
luv2fly
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:00 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
That was 20 years ago, times have changed.

Back then it was New York Air the non union low cost carrier putting the screws to the major airlines.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 5):
Back then it was New York Air the non union low cost carrier putting the screws to the major airlines.

I don't think NY was big enough to have been much of an issue.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 2):
I am surprised considering you yourself were a former FA and having walked in there shoes could and would feel there pain.

...and given that amount of pain, many have similarly decided that enough was enough and gone on to do other things.

This group of FA's have a vendetta against NW for what they believe they are entitled to, not for what they are necessarily worth in the current marketplace. At risk of speaking for Dtwclipper here, others likely see their own value in a given marketplace and determine it relative to other companies (who may value it/them more) or other industries (whereby new careers begin with greater potential) and choose accordingly.

This group seems unwilling to face that microeconomic decision and, worse yet, seems more willing to cut off the nose and spite the face of NW before they have to. It's sad really.

-Mike
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
AA767400
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 3):
Is it possible for them to negotiate just ONE MORE TIME?

It's up to the company now CX.

Until NW brings something to the table again, then this will keep going.
"The low fares airline."
 
KabAir
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:29 am

NW Customers to warn Flight Attendents (AP - Shaystown, ID)

The customers union today made the annoucement that it will give flight attendents warning of their possible impending action to inact CHAYS (Create Havoc Around Your System) in response to the lousy service and threats of strikes. Said spokesman Bob Smith "We will try to give the flight attendents 2 hours notice where possible, but notice may be as short as 5 seconds". The objective of CHAYS is for passengers to fake medical emergencies while in flight, thus forcing numerous flights (and flight attendents) to make unscheduled stops in randsom places and delaying flight attendents from making it home from their trips.

Said Spokesman Smith, "We truly regret resorting to these tactics as we know it will hurt flight attendents and their families, but at some point enough is enough. We the customers are tired of strike threats by various work groups and by golly if we're not making it to our destinations on time, then neither are the flight attendents. We demand a fair trip and it's in the flight attendents court now".

CHAYS is expected to begin as soon as August 25th. The Customers Union has advised Northwest Flight Attendents to carry extra cash in case they need to buy extra meals, rent a car to get home, etc.

****
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
carduelis
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:31 am

Interesting to hear that the Flight Attendants will email their affected passengers.

How do they get hold of their email addresses?

Wildcat, or 'unannounced' strikes are illegal in UK - only official strikes are permitted, with advice of notice of such.

I was a member of a number of unions throughout my varied career in aviation, and we never had any disputes in my time.

Interesting that the strike laws changed in UK in Mrs Thatcher's time in office, (for the better as they haven't been amended) strongly supported by Norman Tebbit, who before becoming a Member of Parliament was BA Captain and Union representative for the pilot's union BALPA.

He later became Lord Tebbit.
Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
slider
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting KabAir (Reply 9):
CHAYS (Create Havoc Around Your System)

 rotfl 

Not a bad idea!!!

Turnabout is fair play. The NW FAs are bluffing anyhow....it's all smoke.
 
iairallie
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting Carduelis (Reply 10):
Wildcat, or 'unannounced' strikes are illegal in UK - only official strikes are permitted, with advice of notice of such

This does not count as a wildcat strike. A strike vote has been cast and a judge ruled they were free to strike.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
mspguy
Posts: 183
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 7):

agree 100%
If it ain't broke, DON'T touch it!!!!
 
TWFirst
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 12):
A strike vote has been cast and a judge ruled they were free to strike.

NO, HE DID NOT. HE RULED THAT HE DID NOT HAVE JURISDICTION OVER THE ISSUE.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
Squid
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:59 am

NWA employees never cease to amaze me. Do they not realize that NWA is in bankruptsy? CHAOS is the last thing they should be doing to their company. If these FA's had half a brain, they would thank NWA management for TA1. Not only is TA1 fair in my opinion, I think NWA gave the FA's to much. THEY ARE JUST FLIGHT ATTENDANTS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Does anyone else get this. FA's do not require any significant education, or require any special skills and most FA's are the second income to their household. FA's don't deserve to make $50,000 per year, their main task is pouring drinks, and most treat that like a chore. Sure they check safety equipment, but that takes what, maybe 10 min. Fast food employee's work harder than flight attendants, especially now since most airlines no longer serve meals.

Has anyone taken the time to review TA1, the one they voted down by 80%? You can see the whole thing at www.nwaafa.org. Not only does this TA1 preserve their international positions, it also limits the size of AC that can be flown by Compass. Those reasons alone should be enough for the FA's to be greatful. I personally would have been very happy to see NWA hire most of their trans-pac FA's from Asia. NWA would then finally be able to provide service comparable to the major Asian airlines with which they compete against. I also feel that NWA should have pushed harder for the definition of a regional jet to be an aircraft that seats up to 100 passengers in order to allow Compass to fly the ERJ-190 as well as the 170. It really only makes good business sense. But NWA caved to the FA's and what do their FA's do to show their gratitude, they vote NO.

So here is their hourly inflight payscale, which NWA says is actually better than United's or USAir's.

DOS 1/1/07 1/1/08 1/1/09 1/1/10 1/1/11
1st Year $17.20 $17.46 $17.63 $17.81 $17.99 $18.35
2nd Year 18.53 18.81 19.00 19.19 19.38 19.77
3rd Year 19.83 20.13 20.33 20.53 20.74 21.15
4th Year 21.11 21.43 21.64 21.86 22.08 22.52
5th Year 22.82 23.16 23.39 23.62 23.86 24.34
6th Year 26.37 26.77 27.04 27.31 27.58 28.13
7th Year 28.90 29.33 29.62 29.92 30.22 30.82
8th Year 32.05 32.53 32.86 33.19 33.52 34.19
9th Year 32.38 32.87 33.20 33.53 33.87 34.55
10th Year 34.41 34.93 35.28 35.63 35.99 36.71
11th Year 35.17 35.70 36.06 36.42 36.78 37.52
12th Year 36.06 36.60 36.97 37.34 37.71 38.46
13th Year 37.15 37.71 38.09 38.47 38.85 39.63
14th Year 38.22 38.79 39.18 39.57 39.97 40.77
15th Year 38.79 39.37 39.76 40.16 40.56 41.37

per-diem is $1.65, lead pay is $1.65 and purser pay is and extra $5.00
All of this is better than United or USAir.

This contract really is a lot to look at, but I have pretty much reviewed the whole thing, and I honestly don't see why they are mad. If I were the CEO of NWA, their contract would have been much leaner, and ALL Trans-Pac flight would be staffed with Asian women that can speak several languages, enjoy serving, and all would be under 50 years old. If this is their contract AFTER 195 million in concession, which I realize includes cuts other than pay, than in my opinion, NWA FA's have been overpaid by at least 195 million for the past five years.

But what really gets me about the NWA flight attendants is they are trying to get support from their customers. And many customers are giving them support, but they have no idea how decient the FA's contract actually is. Instead, the ungrateful flight attendants run to the media and completely mis-represent the good intentions NWA had when distributing the booklet on money saving tips. And the FA's cry to the customer that NWA has take over %30 of their compensation and they have to work X amout of extra hours and Blah, Blah, Blah. But if the customer could see the whole contract I doubt many would side with the FA's. This is the very reason I detest unions. In America, we are free to work where we want. And if you don't like what your employeer is willing to pay you, than do the American thing and quit. Unions do nothing but keep wages inflated, and force the employer into paying more than the job calls for. GOOD LUCK NWA, your almost 2 for 2.

[Edited 2006-08-22 23:04:13]

[Edited 2006-08-22 23:04:38]

[Edited 2006-08-22 23:06:37]
 
atrude777
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 15):
THEY ARE JUST FLIGHT ATTENDANTS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Does anyone else get this. FA's do not require any significant education, or require any special skills and most FA's are the second income to their household. FA's don't deserve to make $50,000 per year, their main task is pouring drinks, and most treat that like a chore. Sure they check safety equipment, but that takes what, maybe 10 min. Fast food employee's work harder than flight attendants, especially now since most airlines no longer serve meals.

You forgot something called safety.

If you have a heart attack, who is going to help you get your heart beat back? If you are having trouble breathing, whos going to help you with that? If the plane crashed and you need help evacuating, who helps you with that?

Trust me, as soon as an emergency occurs, these F/A will jump and THEN their real job will take over and they will do whatever they can to help save as many lives as possible. THATS where the 50,000 dollars you state they don't deserve, actually IS deserved. Plus these F/A are traveling, away from home, people, family, friends, these fast food workers you state work say 8am to 9pm home at night and go to bed with friends and family, the F/A don't.

So these F/A absolutely require "special skills" They absolutely do what they can to help comfort you, sure they pour drinks but their real job comes when there is an emergency.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
utapao
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting Carduelis (Reply 10):
Interesting to hear that the Flight Attendants will email their affected passengers.

How do they get hold of their email addresses?

Good questionn, Carduelis. They would have no access to the passenger information.

Or is it just a PR ploy to win the public's support?

I would be ticked off to find my email from my PNR was available to anyone.

Hope it all works out to the benefit of the travelers!
Sawasdee khrab!
 
TWFirst
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16):
So these F/A absolutely require "special skills"

Sorry Alex, but if that were the case, anyone who's ever taken a CPR class and can scream "GET OUT!" would be able to command a wage premium. Their "special skills" just aren't special... or scarce. Squid has it right.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
adh214
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:16 am

The one thing I don't understand about FA pay is why an FA with nine years of experience is paid twice what a new FA is paid? (according to the chart in Squid's post) Is an FA with nine years of experience twice as productive as a first year FA? Is an FA with nine years of experience twice as polite and customer service oriented as a new FA?

I can understand this in other industries where experience produces a more productive employee (such as engineering, research or law). I would propose that an FA with six months of experience probably has learned the job and is just as productive as one with nine years of experience. So why does the pay increase so much with experience?

Andrew
 
KabAir
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16):
You forgot something called safety.

If you have a heart attack, who is going to help you get your heart beat back? If you are having trouble breathing, whos going to help you with that?

So they know CPR and how to use and AED. That's about 4 hours of training right there. Most of the EMT's I've worked with in the past were LUCKY to make $30,000 a year (the ones that weren't volunteers that is) and they probably see just a few more emergencies per year than the FA's who you think deserve $50,000 because of their ability to perform a task that many 10 year olds know how to do, and to act in another sort of an emergency that will most likely never happen. Most firefighters don't make $50,000 per year. Think about that one.



Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16):
Plus these F/A are traveling, away from home, people, family, friends, these fast food workers you state work say 8am to 9pm home at night and go to bed with friends and family, the F/A don't

Wait, I took this job as an FA and you mean I have to travel?!?! How the heck was I supposed to know that was part of the job?

Not knocking FA's here, but if they are worth $50,000 a year then the EMT's I see around should be making about $300,000.
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
mptpa
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting Style (Thread starter):
It's an attempt to win the public's support while you're doing something that the public would be very much inconvenienced by

By giving me 2 hours of notice is going to help me? How? They are not going to get my sympathy at all, just the opposite. I have a flight on Aug 27 to VIE from DTW, and I hope they do not f**k up my schedule... I had been a NWA loyal flier for 13 years, and they will not get my sympathy for anything.

Quoting Carduelis (Reply 10):
How do they get hold of their email addresses?

They want you to go tot their website, put your name, flight and date as well as email addr so they can give you the puny 2 hours-20 minutes notice and they think it is supposed to help you.... Bloody hell I say.

Quoting Squid (Reply 15):
. FA's don't deserve to make $50,000 per year, their main task is pouring drinks, and most treat that like a chore.

Get ready, you are going to get flamed. However, I agree with your thinking... A high schooler with no real skills or training can be a FA with minimal training and they reject $50K.... I had to endure 20 years+ schooling and then still some... Any NWA FA's here...... come on guys and gals... you guys are playing with fire.... McDonalds is not opening that many outlets in the midwest....
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:31 am

As much as I'd like not to debate the merits of FA's, the issue of value-added roles is at the root of the restructuring going on amongst all business groups in airline companies today, so a few of your comments need to be addressed...

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16):
If you have a heart attack, who is going to help you get your heart beat back? If you are having trouble breathing, whos going to help you with that?

With all due respect, the notion that a FA is the most qualified, able-bodied individual to provide assistance in medical emergencies on an airplane is absolutely preposterous. To answer your questions more directly, "just about anyone who knows CPR will help you". So there's no real value-added here.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16):
If the plane crashed and you need help evacuating, who helps you with that?

Yes, the execution of the evacuation plan is the responsibility of the FA's: to direct and assist (where physically practical) passengers to exit the aircraft in an ordered, safe fashion. However, is this a frequent enough occurence to be considered a value-added to the paying customer? Unlikely. And are these skills considered of high demand relative to their availability in the marketplace. Again, IMHO this is unlikely too. So to the question of value-added in this circumstance, it is marginal at best.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16):
Plus these F/A are traveling, away from home, people, family, friends, these fast food workers you state work say 8am to 9pm home at night and go to bed with friends and family, the F/A don't.

Two questions: (1) how were these sacrifices previously unknown to the FA at time of application when determining individually what the value of one's own time is? and (2) why, as a paying customer, do I care?

(I truthfully don't mean to sound callous here, but I'm not sure if the plight/sacrifices made by those in the service industry to whom I am paying some compensation has ever been considered as some value to me, nor do I think that it's in the prevalent consciousness of anyone who pays money to fly.)

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16):
So these F/A absolutely require "special skills" They absolutely do what they can to help comfort you, sure they pour drinks but their real job comes when there is an emergency.

Then I'm sorry, but based on my quick analysis above, the FA's don't appear to have much of a value-added at all (short of a dire emergency) to justify a wage that is ostensibly higher than what the market/company can bear.

IMO, if the FA's are going to base their value arguments on events that have an infinitesimally small chance of occuring, then the average paying customer is going to have an equal chance (read: nearly zero) of accepting their role in the airline and to pay a premium for said service.

Respectfully,
-Mike
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
markabcan
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16):
If you have a heart attack, who is going to help you get your heart beat back? If you are having trouble breathing, whos going to help you with that?

Ummm, that's a doctor, not a FA! Squid is absolutely correct, FAs are unskilled workers, yet they expect to be paid like professionals with substantial education and/or training. Not going to happen, your only paid what your worth in this world! I understand its a emotional situation but it is very simple, unskilled worker = salary of unskilled worker!
 
atrude777
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 22):
With all due respect, the notion that a FA is the most qualified, able-bodied individual to provide assistance in medical emergencies on an airplane is absolutely preposterous. To answer your questions more directly, "just about anyone who knows CPR will help you". So there's no real value-added here.

You have to assume there ARE no doctors on board or anyone physically able to help out, so thats why the F/A are trained, with the assumption no one else on board knows how to.

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 22):
However, is this a frequent enough occurence to be considered a value-added to the paying customer? Unlikely. And are these skills considered of high demand relative to their availability in the marketplace. Again, IMHO this is unlikely too. So to the question of value-added in this circumstance, it is marginal at best.

It isn't freqeunt enough no, but it does and can, and will happen in future flights. Not so much as crashes, but more landing incidents and runway run offs.

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 22):
Two questions: (1) how were these sacrifices previously unknown to the FA at time of application when determining individually what the value of one's own time is? and (2) why, as a paying customer, do I care?

I understand these F/A KNOW this when they try for the job, but I am stating its hard to compare a F/A working endless nights, and being away from home so much as opposed to a fast food worker who may work hard, dont get me wrong, but they are not away from home so much as the F/A and that sort of thing

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 23):
Ummm, that's a doctor, not a FA!

Again, as I stated above you HAVE to assume there are NO doctors on board, while the chances are very high of their being a doctor or SOMEONE who knows CPR, why make the passengers have to deal with that? They paid to fly from A to B not to help save someones life, hence the F/A jobs correct? Yes it would be nice and respectful if a passenger got up to help assist the F/A, and I agree it is the right thing to do, but again this job relies on the F/A and thats why they were put on board.

Quoting KabAir (Reply 20):

Would have thought the training would be higher. I do also think Firefighters and EMT's should also be paid higher as well. But the argument is F/A not these workers.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Squid
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:13 am

And one last thing I want to add here is that I really hope NWA wins their appeal and prevents the FA's from CHAOS, then as punishment NWA demands 250 million in annual cuts per year on contract 3. If the employee's do not want to play nice, than management shouldn't either. It should be of the highest priority of management to keep their employee's in line with constructive discipline. By demanding 250 million in contract 3 as punishment for what the FA's have done, maybe the FA's, as well as all their union employee's, will think twice before getting out of line.
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:26 am

Alex, I guess what I'm encouraging for you--and indeed FA's at large in this situation--is to better pick your battles. If you're going to hang your hat on being the most qualified, best prepared person to provide a service that few, if any of us, will ever experience, then your value will be perceived by the masses (and worse for the FA's, by management as well) as relatively small.

Using NW FA's as an example, where many are "advanced" in life and their careers, they need to, quite frankly, identify how their years of experience translate into a value-added for the customer predictably every single time they step onto an aircraft, not simply when an aircraft overruns the runway or what have you. For example, I would imagine over the years that FA's know:

  • how to quickly fill an aircraft ==> time saved is a huge value-added

  • how to obtain and convey info on connecting flights and other pertinent announcements ==> info beforehand has value-added to the customer whether they're on business making a connection or a family looking to locate their luggage in a foreign location

  • how to maintain a pleasant demeanor during face-to-face contact with the customer ==> delays are frustrating for all, but to know that the service rep is calm, deliberate, and tireless in his/her efforts to mitigate the problem indeed has value

    Simply "getting older" and "putting in your time" does not justify a person to earn a higher wage. Theoretically, learning tricks of your trade, thereby in turn providing a value-added to the customer in some incremental amount, increases the likelihood of that customer returning and/or paying a premium to use your services, which in turn means a higher wage for them. Time and time again, this message seems to be missed by the FA's in this case: they seem stuck on what is "owed" to them in an economic environment that no longer has it to give.
  • I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
     
    LMP737
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    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:30 am

    Quoting Squid (Reply 25):
    And one last thing I want to add here is that I really hope NWA wins their appeal and prevents the FA's from CHAOS, then as punishment NWA demands 250 million in annual cuts per year on contract 3. If the employee's do not want to play nice, than management shouldn't either. It should be of the highest priority of management to keep their employee's in line with constructive discipline. By demanding 250 million in contract 3 as punishment for what the FA's have done, maybe the FA's, as well as all their union employee's, will think twice before getting out of line.

    Now there's a sure fire way to motivate a work force, punishment!!!!!!!
    Never take financial advice from co-workers.
     
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    TVNWZ
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    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:32 am

    Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
    Sorry, the attempt won't work to win my support, next.

    Roger, that!

    Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 2):
    am surprised considering you yourself were a former FA and having walked in there shoes could and would feel there pain.

    Their pain is partially self-induced. The union shopping spree the flight attendants went on did more harm than good and weakened their position with the company, BK judge and other unions.

    Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 12):
    This does not count as a wildcat strike. A strike vote has been cast and a judge ruled they were free to strike.

    As noted: not quite. He ruled he does not have the AUTHORITY to STOP a strike. Another judge does, however, and we will see everyone in court there I am sure.
     
    dolinja777
    Posts: 36
    Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 3:37 am

    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:36 am

    For a second I felt a tiny bit better after hearing about this email alert and went to the NW AFA site to register. I thought they might ask about a flight number, date or time? All they asked was your first name, last name, email address and which airport you are flying out of.

    That doesn't sound very comprehensive to me, which means one of two things:

    1. They can use that info to look up your reservation and will notify you if possible (which I understand is really no guarantee).

    2. This is all horseshit, just a ploy. No one will be notified.
     
    777fan
    Posts: 2256
    Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:09 pm

    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:38 am

    Great news (sarcasm). You can tell they're really doing their best to help their employer survive (more sarcasm). I'm hoping that, should NW be liquidated, the FAs end up being blackballed for subversive activities (not sarcasm).

    777fan
    DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
     
    jacobin777
    Posts: 12262
    Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:46 am

    Quoting 777fan (Reply 30):
    Great news (sarcasm). You can tell they're really doing their best to help their employer survive (more sarcasm). I'm hoping that, should NW be liquidated, the FAs end up being blackballed for subversive activities (not sarcasm).

    Rather than being liquidated, I hope all parties come through and solve this situation...NW has a bright future if they can get their cards in order.... Smile


    cheers.
    "Up the Irons!"
     
    777fan
    Posts: 2256
    Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:09 pm

    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:57 am

    Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
    Rather than being liquidated, I hope all parties come through and solve this situation...NW has a bright future if they can get their cards in order....

    That is always the hope, however, FAs warning pax of chaos tactics will no doubt force a good number to consider other alternatives, something that's not going to help NW recover. UA's FAs contemplated playing hardball until it became abundantly clear that they might have actually forced UA out of business in the process. I'm sure NW's FAs are basing their "strategy" at least in part on what happened at UA. We'll see...

    777fan
    DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
     
    MattMSP767
    Posts: 108
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    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:04 am

    If these FA's feel they have such great skills then they should quit and go work for a company where they feel they can be compensated to their satisfaction. What kind of people do nothing but complain about their job and wages, but yet stick with that company? People in unions, that's who. NW FA's need to get over themselves and look at the big picture or get a new job.
     
    Ben330NWA
    Posts: 36
    Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:02 pm

    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:21 am

    WOW. I'm actually surprised as to what most of the comments are in here. It is a very complicated situation that the FA's are in right now. Like I stated in another post, my former co-workers aren't looking for wealth. It's not like they had big homes and fancy cars in the first place. About 7 years ago when they were under the IBT, they fought hard to get wages that were on par with other airlines and to get some of the more junior flight attendants off of government assistance. That being said, it has only been less than a decade that the more senior flight attendants have been making the bigger salaries that you all have seen. They are fighting for a fair contract, NOT more money. They are only asking they be treated fairly by the company and that they receive wages that are LIVABLE in today's society. Everyone from a truck driver to a business man who travels gets some kind of bonus for being on the road for work, why shouldn't a flight attendant. Of course they will be those of you that will say, "They signed up for it"...well so did teachers, EMT's, firefighters, and truck drivers. No one seems to complain and argue if they want more money. Many of you act as though FA's are completely useless. I'm sure that during the 9-11 attacks, the flight attendants onboard those planes did as much to stop the terrorists and help passengers. And let's not forget the shoe bomber, who was discovered by a flight attendant. It really does sadden me to see so much animosity towards these people who are really a hard working group of people, ESPECIALLY coming from "fans" of aviation. Some of you have even said that they wished and hoped the company would impose a "stricter" contract upon them. That is absolutely horrible. What has this group of people done to you that you would wish a hard life upon them? While many of you will look to it as "complaining and whining" it's really not. Many of those "complainers and whiners" are single parents who are trying to do what's right and fight for what they have. Some of you will say "leave or quit" but it isn't that easy and why should they have to? Many of you are only looking at the economical and financial side of this whole mess, yet forget that there are human beings who are miserable and trying to stand up for what is right.
     
    swissy
    Posts: 1481
    Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:12 pm

    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:30 am

    Quoting Mattmsp767 (Reply 33):
    If these FA's feel they have such great skills then they should quit and go work for a company where they feel they can be compensated to their satisfaction. What kind of people do nothing but complain about their job and wages, but yet stick with that company? People in unions, that's who. NW FA's need to get over themselves and look at the big picture or get a new job.

    You have a point however that is the whole dilemma they are their own victims because of the unions, all their experience, seniority means sh.. at AA,
    CO, DL, US/HP........ why ask the unions............. they do not have a choice to work somewhere else because they would have to start at the bottom of the pay scale which is far less than they earn today.......in today's world you would think more or less everyone has some brains....... you know how you can Win sympathy???? accept the fact that NW is what it is today and work and show your loyal customers that they can count on you!!!! even on though times like now.................

    Cheers,

    Cheers,
     
    jacobin777
    Posts: 12262
    Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:42 am

    Quoting 777fan (Reply 32):
    That is always the hope, however, FAs warning pax of chaos tactics will no doubt force a good number to consider other alternatives, something that's not going to help NW recover. UA's FAs contemplated playing hardball until it became abundantly clear that they might have actually forced UA out of business in the process. I'm sure NW's FAs are basing their "strategy" at least in part on what happened at UA. We'll see...

    I agree...I'll check the NW flyer talk board to see what some reactions of the FF's are....

    That being said, I don't have a problem with them striking, but striking to the detriment of their customers without helping out the pax is a surefire way to lose some business..and that is something NW can't afford to have... no 

    its the customers which pay their bills, its one thing to spite NW management, but its another thing to spite one's customer..especially the loyal ones...

    cheers.
    "Up the Irons!"
     
    andrewuber
    Posts: 2142
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    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:52 am

    Quoting Ben330NWA (Reply 34):

    When will employees realize that keeping a job with a bankrupt airline requires sacrifice?!?

    Union workers want fairness, but the only thing they are willing to sacrifice is job security.

    Drew
    I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
     
    Bicoastal
    Posts: 2446
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    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:57 am

    I'm hoping they do start CHAOS and have some sort of job action. Seeing how the labor union members at all of the other now or once bankrupt legacies have thrown in the towel, we haven't had the pleasure of watching one of these threatened job actions play out. So just to keep it interesting and see how effective/ineffective organized labor is, I'm encouraging CHAOS.

    The result will either be 1) an emboldened airline labor movement that stood up for principle and forced management to give them a better agreement; or 2) layoffs, NWA shutting down, FAs begging for their jobs back for lower wages and benefits, passengers flocking to other airlines, etc.
    Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
     
    Ben330NWA
    Posts: 36
    Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:02 pm

    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:00 am

    Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 37):
    When will employees realize that keeping a job with a bankrupt airline requires sacrifice?!?

    Union workers want fairness, but the only thing they are willing to sacrifice is job security.

    Drew

    I think they have sacrificed a lot. And not to mention they sacrificed way more than they should have only because the company was breathing down their necks with replacement workers who were foreign nationals. And when will upper management and the executives realize that they cannot and should not make their big salaries while the company is in bankruptcy. Do they really need to make more than 100K a year to figure out how to keep NWA afloat? While most of you are bashing these flight attendants who took a 40% paycut which was across the board including the junior flight attendants who were only making 23,000 a year, you guys seem to forget or overlook that management and the executives only took a 17% paycut after two rounds of reductions.
     
    tockeyhockey
    Posts: 880
    Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:57 pm

    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:07 am

    i love how nwa is allowed to threaten to liquidate, threaten to completely bust the union, threaten to take away all pensions, but when a union tries to fight back and just threatens to strike, this whole board goes on and on about how selfish and terrible the union members are.

    how brainwashed by your intro to macro economics courses are you guys?
     
    etops1
    Posts: 831
    Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:26 pm

    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:36 am

    i was gonna say that but then i would probrably be sent to the cornfield. but i agree with you 1,000% "we're nuts"
     
    User avatar
    TVNWZ
    Posts: 1678
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    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:39 am

    Quoting Ben330NWA (Reply 34):
    It is a very complicated situation that the FA's are in right now.

    It is indeed complicated. But, the complication comes because many just will not accept that the position of the airline in bankruptcy nullifies anything that happened in the past. You have to forget about the past and just save the airline. Hard to accept, but it is the way of things right now.

    It is also complicated because of the FA's union shopping. This is just chaos and was a stretegic blunder on their part.

    Quoting Ben330NWA (Reply 34):
    They are fighting for a fair contract, NOT more money.

    You have bargained tenative agreements with two unions. You voted both down. Agreements reached by duly appointed negotiating committees of your union(s) should be approved. You should have supported the new union negotiating team, but did not. Now what message are you sending the company? You are sending the message that nobody is in control of the membership, so the best thing to do is let the courts decide, because no matter what, the company can not be assured the negotiating team has any real authority to negotiate to completion.

    Quoting Ben330NWA (Reply 34):
    Some of you have even said that they wished and hoped the company would impose a "stricter" contract upon them.

    I agree, this is mean. Everyone should have a right to negotiate as much as possible. But, under the present circumstances, that is not much.

    Quoting Ben330NWA (Reply 34):
    Some of you will say "leave or quit" but it isn't that easy and why should they have to? Many of you are only looking at the economical and financial side of this whole mess, yet forget that there are human beings who are miserable and trying to stand up for what is right.

    I am one of them. And I believe it. If you can not accept the prediciment you and your company are in, then you OWE it to yourself to leave. Do it! You will never be happy in an environment where your company is on the edge of extinction and you are feeling put upon for years of past transgressions. the bitterness and divisiveness are too much. All those who stay will be bitter. they will always try to make up for the past, and the past will NEVER be made up. the economic model has changed. So, let other people, without bitterness, take your place. and you can move on to a more fullfilling life, away from the past.
     
    andrewuber
    Posts: 2142
    Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:45 am

    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:02 am

    Quoting Ben330NWA (Reply 39):
    I think they have sacrificed a lot. And not to mention they sacrificed way more than they should have only because the company was breathing down their necks with replacement workers who were foreign nationals. And when will upper management and the executives realize that they cannot and should not make their big salaries while the company is in bankruptcy. Do they really need to make more than 100K a year to figure out how to keep NWA afloat? While most of you are bashing these flight attendants who took a 40% paycut which was across the board including the junior flight attendants who were only making 23,000 a year, you guys seem to forget or overlook that management and the executives only took a 17% paycut after two rounds of reductions.

    My question is - why would they choose a 100% paycut by starting CHAOS?
    I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
     
    luvfa
    Posts: 333
    Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 10:05 pm

    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:15 am

    I think people have missed the point here! Everybody is blaming the NWA FA's for this predicament. The fact is they are well within their right to strike, (and a judge agreed), if NW throws out their contract. If management doesn't honor the contract, then why should the union?
    As far as e!mailing customers, as a union you want to create as much potential harm for the company as possible, to help level the playing field during negotiations! Yes this hurts the company, but desperate times create desperate measures! The hope is the threadt of a loss in business will bring management to negotiate in good faith. Up to now it has been "We are throwing out the contract take this offer or else". Now there will actually be Negotiations!
    FA's are worth what they make. At SWA we went through 4 1/2 weeks of unpaid training. We took daily tests and had to pass each one or else we were sent home. All but 1/2 day of our time was spent on safety. Yes most of the time our job is to provide service but that is just p.r., (and the best part of the job). Part of that salary is per diem which is merely compensation for expenses for being away from home 15+ days per month! Top out pay of $40 Hr x 70hrs month 2,800 p/month which is 33,000 per year after 15 years nof service to the company. Yes lets buy that Rolls!
     
    dtwclipper
    Posts: 6668
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    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:25 am

    Quoting Luvfa (Reply 45):
    you want to create as much potential harm for the company as possible

    That would be fine and dandy it the industry was not in the shape it was in.

    Again, this is 2006, not 1970, '80 or even 1990. The world has changed.

    Quoting Luvfa (Reply 45):
    The hope is the threadt of a loss in business will bring management to negotiate in good faith

    The loss of business could close up the shop...who wins?
    Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
     
    Ben330NWA
    Posts: 36
    Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:02 pm

    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:41 am

    Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 43):
    because many just will not accept that the position of the airline in bankruptcy

    I believe that my former co-workers have realized where the company is at this point, but have Steenland and the rest who make the big bucks realized it? Who in their right mind would accept a bonus or feel it was deserved during bankruptcy??? How can you call yourselves executive "talent?", and still watch as the finances of the company go down the drain?

    Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 43):
    You have bargained tenative agreements with two unions. You voted both down. Agreements reached by duly appointed negotiating committees of your union(s) should be approved. You should have supported the new union negotiating team, but did not.

    First off the PFAA agreed to TA1 before asking the imput of the members. The flight attendants time and time again asked and asked them to seek the support of other unions, namely AFA-CWA, by accepting their legal and negotiating advice, but the PFAA turned it down and decided they themselves would negotiate the best contract for the FA workgroup. It didn't work and they were voted out. AFA took control, but at the time of the election they only had a matter of days before meeting with the company to come up with a better TA. NWA was dead set on their goal of 195 million and only budged on a few issues. Many of the complaints that came forth were about new work rules and rest periods NOT pay.

    Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 43):
    You will never be happy in an environment where your company is on the edge of extinction and you are feeling put upon for years of past transgressions. the bitterness and divisiveness are too much. All those who stay will be bitter. they will always try to make up for the past, and the past will NEVER be made up.

    Once upon a time there was a company that was on the verge of extinction. They had a horrible reputation. Then came a Mr. Gordon Bethune. He completely changed the operation of the airline and sent Continental to the top. Those that remained are happy that they did so and are proud to now work for a great company.

    Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 44):
    My question is - why would they choose a 100% paycut by starting CHAOS

    CHAOS isn't a complete walkout. They are still going to be there for the flight, just maybe 15-20 minutes late. Or maybe they just won't be there for a flight at all. That's the mystery of CHAOS. As far as a 100% paycut...well that's what sick time is for.
     
    laxatljfkcvg
    Posts: 39
    Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:32 am

    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:55 am

    Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
    Sorry, the attempt won't work to win my support, next

    Obliviously you live in Detroit and you dont want to leave the side of your pooor!NWA.
     cry 
     
    User avatar
    TVNWZ
    Posts: 1678
    Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:59 am

    Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 46):
    Quoting Luvfa (Reply 45):
    The hope is the threadt of a loss in business will bring management to negotiate in good faith

    The loss of business could close up the shop...who wins?

    And the irony here is the winners will most likely be the upper management these people hate. In fact, Steenland would probably make a lot more money somewhere else.

    Quoting Luvfa (Reply 45):
    The hope is the threadt of a loss in business will bring management to negotiate in good faith

    Once again, TWO union bargaining teams consisting of duly appointed union membership negotiators and their lawyers came to tenative agreements with the company. Both times they were voted down. But, the second time is was only voted down by one-in-four members of the unit. three-fourths voted for the agreement or did not vote. I am sorry, this is about as good faith as it gets. The bad faith comes from the union(s) and membership. They can not approve tenative agreements and can not support the negotiating teams no matter the union. Maybe someone should call the Teamsters.
     
    dtwclipper
    Posts: 6668
    Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

    RE: NWA Flight Attendants To Warn Customers

    Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:01 am

    Quoting Laxatljfkcvg (Reply 48):
    Obliviously you live in Detroit and you dont want to leave the side of your pooor!NWA.

    This from an: Occupation: unemployed, Age: 13-15

    Come back when you grow up and have something to say, and oh a job!
    Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business