infodesk
Posts: 1462
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 11:06 pm

Low-cost Airlines Ignoring ATC?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:44 pm

About three years ago I saw a newspaper article which said that an anonymous air traffic controller at an unspecified UK airport alleged that pilots of an unnamed "low-cost" airline were arguing with and sometimes ignoring instructions from ATC, in their anxiety to maintain schedules. Spokesmen for two airlines which come to mind were quoted as saying that their pilots weren't guilty of this - but then they would say that, wouldn't they? The story didn't run for long and I have often wondered:
1. Was there any truth in the allegation?
2. If so, was the controller "leaned on" to keep quiet - or did the guilty airline go through the pretence of telling its pilots to be a bit more careful?"

I'd be grateful for any thoughts or comments on this matter. Thanks!
"Do nothing in haste, look well to each step and from the beginning think what may be the end" - Edward Whymper
 
gilesdavies
Posts: 2268
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:51 pm

RE: Low-cost Airlines Ignoring ATC?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:05 pm

Im sure Pearson is about to shoot me down.

But Ryanair has been criticised on a number of occassions by ATC for violations...

There have been a number of claims over the years including... Breaking speed limits on taxiways, too fast approaches, and using diffrent thresholds at runways to take-off.

Here's a few articles, to back my claims...

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2002/06/19/story30425.asp

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,,742552,00.html

Im sure, there was an incident a while back and where a Ryanair 738 over shot the runway at either Vaasteras or Stockholm Skavsta and this was blamed as pilot error and ignoring ATC. But I cannot find anything else about that, so I will reserve judgement for the moment.
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: Low-cost Airlines Ignoring ATC?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:04 pm

Pe@rson might not have seen this thread yet, so I shall shoot you down instead.

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 1):
There have been a number of claims over the years including... Breaking speed limits on taxiways, too fast approaches, and using diffrent thresholds at runways to take-off.

Can you please state your source for this statement? If there had been violations, they would be found in CHIRP (British Confidential Human Factors Incident Reporting Programme) which, as the title implies, is a confidential reporting system whereby pilots, ATCs etc can report issues that may breach safety without any backlash. It would be impossible for a journalist to obtain the reports, so the stories that appear in the tabloids would be based on hearsay. If FR was continually appearing in CHIRP, you can be assured that this would attract the attention of both the UK and Irish CAAs.

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 1):
Here's a few articles, to back my claims...

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2002/06/19/story30425.asp

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus....html

The report in the Irish Examiner is 4 years old and does not single out FR. The article states that BALPA believes it is aimed at FR but whenever you mention LCCs, FR is probably the first name on everyone’s mind. People and the Press just love rocking FR and why? Simply because it is successful. And BALPA might have a sour grape since it does not have a “formal arrangement” with the airline. For all you know, the airline might have been buzz or Go! who were both around at that time.

The Guardian’s report, again 4 years old, is based on a former pilot who “no longer works for FR.” Sounds like a case of sour grapes to me.

I believe MOL when he says that keeping FR’s 18-year zero accident record as his number one, number two and number three priorities. MOL knows that a major incident, which is later found to relate to safety/operational guidelines having been breached, would be the death-knell for FR. Would he willingly compromise safety, or his fortune? The FR pilots are humans too. Surely they would not put their lives, and their passengers’ lives, at risk in order to adhere to the strict turnaround times.

Maybe the FR pilots break speed limits on taxiways, but can all of you in all honesty put your hands on your hearts and say you never exceeded the speed limits on roads, not even by 0.5mph? If the FR pilots used different thresholds at runways, you can bet your arse that they would be widely-reported, not kept in CHIRP.

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 1):
Im sure, there was an incident a while back and where a Ryanair 738 over shot the runway at either Vaasteras or Stockholm Skavsta and this was blamed as pilot error and ignoring ATC. But I cannot find anything else about that, so I will reserve judgement for the moment.

Again, please state your source. The 738 landed in exceptionally difficult conditions and skidded off the wet runway. I did not think that pilot error and ignoring ATC were stated as possible causes.

I shall now leave it to Pe@rson to hand down his judgement.   

[Edited 2006-08-24 15:08:28]
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16001
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Low-cost Airlines Ignoring ATC?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:03 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 1):
Im sure Pearson is about to shoot me down.

I resent the implication.  Wink I am as nice as a fluffy bunny.  Wow!

Quoting BCAL (Reply 2):
The article states that BALPA believes it is aimed at FR but whenever you mention LCCs, FR is probably the first name on everyone’s mind. People and the Press just love rocking FR and why? Simply because it is successful.

Indeed. Rather like a lot of its operation.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 2):
I shall now leave it to Pe@rson to hand down his judgement.

10 years hard labour. L.O.L.  Silly
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."

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