Alitalia744
Topic Author
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:08 am

Delta plans to implement four employee provided fuel saving (weight saving) initiatives this year including potentially removing the bulkhead b/w F/Y Class per the link attached.

I personally am not in love with the idea, perhaps they could find a lighter weight "hard" divider vs. going to curtains?

Delta Fuel Management

Thoughts? I know Air Canada is currently implementing this on the nb aircraft...

[Edited 2006-08-24 22:10:16]

[Edited 2006-08-24 22:16:33]
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead

Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:11 am

This is not a class thing so much as a kid kicking the back of the seat thing, but I would imagine that since airlines like to seat kids in the first row of Y and kids like to kick seats, that removing this bulkhead will suck. Especially because you may get an envious mother who does nothing to stop her kid from kicking the "rich jerk".
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 695
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead

Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:14 am

Why are you unhappy sounds to me like Delta is doing the right thing and trying to lower fuel costs.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
Alitalia744
Topic Author
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 2):
Why are you unhappy sounds to me like Delta is doing the right thing and trying to lower fuel costs.

I guess I'm not thrilled because I enjoy the perks of being Medallion and seperation of class, yeah sounds like a snob.

My biggest complaint is exactly what Ikramerica said, kids often sit in bulkhead rows and will be less than thrilled to be constantly kicked in the back.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11508
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:21 am

I've sat in Row 4 plenty of times on NW aircraft (by aircraft, I mean -9s and 32Xs) and have never been kicked. On NW at least, it's a little far for the kid to kick (except on the XJ Avros, but they're a different animal). To be honest, I don't mind it that much. After all, if you can't snag the upgrade, the bulkhead seats are a pretty nice alternative, especially on shorter segments where there's not a lot of service differentiation. And hey, compared to some other ways to save money, it's not so bad.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
deltairlines
Posts: 6877
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:31 am

I won't mind it as long as Delta opens up Row 10 for elites to pre-select instead of holding them for airport control. I've flown on a few NW DC-9s in Row 5 (no chance for an upgrade as a DL elite) and like the fact that there's underseat storage, a ton of legroom, easy on-off access...by far my favourite seats on the planes. Just put a small hanging divider (like what European airlines use to seperate Business and Economy) and it's fine by me.
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 695
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:36 am

Ok i understand but one must remember that service isn't what it used to be. I have had kids kick the seats in coach and your right it is annoying. I guess we will just have to deal. Hasn't NW done without them for quite a while now. I think that DeltAirlines has it right about a mutually beneficial situation.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
DeltaMIA
Posts: 1622
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:53 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:55 am

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 5):
I won't mind it as long as Delta opens up Row 10 for elites to pre-select instead of holding them for airport control.

Won't happen. It needs to remain open for passengers with disabilites. Part of Delta's agreement with the DOT several years ago.
Opening up would lead to more elite passengers being displaced from their seat requests to accomadate the passengers with special needs.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
This is not a class thing so much as a kid kicking the back of the seat thing, but I would imagine that since airlines like to seat kids in the first row of Y and kids like to kick seats, that removing this bulkhead will suck. Especially because you may get an envious mother who does nothing to stop her kid from kicking the "rich jerk".

Well on DL the bulkhead typically goes to passengers with disabilites. If none than it goes to elites. Occassionally when none present themselves at the gate or counter requesting bulkhead seating than it will go to a family trying to sit together that had scattered seats. The chances of you being kicked are minimal assuming you choose to always sit in the last row of first class.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 6877
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 7):
Won't happen. It needs to remain open for passengers with disabilites. Part of Delta's agreement with the DOT several years ago.
Opening up would lead to more elite passengers being displaced from their seat requests to accomadate the passengers with special needs.

Just curious as to why Delta would have to place disabled passengers in the bulkhead. Northwest allows half the bulkhead to be reserved for disabled passengers (one side of the plane) and the other half for any elites, and then there is another row of seats in the front part of the coach cabin that only disabled passengers can reserve (passengers have to talk to an agent to be assigned these seats, and they can only be reserved for disabled patrons until the 24-hour mark when all seats open up). I would think this would be the most pleasing situation to everyone - allows elites a shot at getting some bulkhead seats, while still maintaining seats for disabled flyers.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11508
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 8):
I would think this would be the most pleasing situation to everyone - allows elites a shot at getting some bulkhead seats, while still maintaining seats for disabled flyers.

NW also will bump elites from bulkheads when necessary to accomodate an unusually large number of disabled pax, so I really don't see why DL must leave them open. If NW needs them, NW makes them available (one way or another).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
FLYACYYZ
Posts: 1820
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:13 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Thread starter):
Thoughts? I know Air Canada is currently implementing this on the nb aircraft...

This has been in effect for some time on AC's A319's & A320's. I believe the A321's are next. It is a definite weight reduction, but at the time of conversion, it was done mainly for "real estate" purposes, at the request of marketing. It allowed the company to slide in an extra row of Y/C seating.

The only real nuisance is that customers who are in the first row of Economy are now tapping on the seat backs of the last row of Business Class, programming their AVOD TV's.
Above and Beyond
 
deltaffindfw
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:42 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:53 am

I always pick the last row of F when I upgrade on DL due to the fact that most F/As let you leave the seat reclined during takeoff/landing, since it doesn't impede the seat behind you. I almost always sleep on flights, and this helps a lot. I guess if they get rid of the bulkhead, that will change.
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7071
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:55 am

I wish US and CO would do this on the 757's. It'd be a lot more confortable. I'd like to see that on the 737NG that CO has.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
DeltaMIA
Posts: 1622
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:53 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 8):
Just curious as to why Delta would have to place disabled passengers in the bulkhead.

The bulkhead has to be available to passengers with disabilities per ADA/DOT requirements. DL has elected as part of a huge settlement with the DOT to keep these seats vacant and readily available to anyone with a disability. The seats are available to customers with disabilities 331 days in advance up to 30 minutes prior to departure time. The seats will then be assigned to those that made the request with the gate agent or to passengers awaiting seat assignments. If you want a bulkhead just request it at the gate; there is a good chance you will get it, but I would assume everyone is sympathetic to the needs of the disabled.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
B4REAL
Posts: 2559
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:53 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:57 am

These new moves by DL are the right economic decision, but I grumble as a passenger b/c on multiple points service elements are decreased. I understand the decision, but am saddended to think that this means that some things won't come back (as if it wasn't clear already).
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
I've sat in Row 4 plenty of times on NW aircraft

I try to get the last row in F if upgraded so people don't bang the back of the seat or grab the seat for support when getting up.

I could care less about seperation of class or any of that crap, though i would also assume that having solid bulkheads in the cabin help to mitigate noise transfer.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 7):
Well on DL the bulkhead typically goes to passengers with disabilites

Another reason I wouldn't like this, as they are the most likely pax to grab the back of the next seat for support when getting up.

Anyway, I fly CO most often, and only the 735s, IIRC, have curtain bulkheads vs. fixed ones.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
DeltaMIA
Posts: 1622
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:53 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:20 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
Another reason I wouldn't like this, as they are the most likely pax to grab the back of the next seat for support when getting up.

I still can't get over the lack of people's ability to comprehend and adapt to change. How many times does this happen, honestly. Most passengers with a disability get up what 10 times a flight? I tend to forget how mobile they are. Or maybe that is just on your flights.

ALL OF YOU SHOULD BE APPLAUDING DELTA's EFFORTS TO CONSERVE FUEL. Because it is precious to all of us whether we fly or not.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
Anyway, I fly CO most often, and only the 735s, IIRC, have curtain bulkheads vs. fixed ones.

Then the move will have even smaller of an impact on you.

Quoting B4real (Reply 14):
I grumble as a passenger b/c on multiple points service elements are decreased.

I really see how. Most of the examples probably go unnoticed on a day to day basis (when they actually do occur), but are only being point out to make it seem as though the decision isn't in the best interest of the consumer. When in actuality it will benefit far more than it will impact.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
coerj
Posts: 216
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:49 pm

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:28 am

How Heavy are those bulkheads anyway? I couldn't imagine it would save much fuel. Please correct me if I'm wrong
 
bohica
Posts: 2308
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:21 pm

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:36 am

Bravo Delta!!!!!  praise  The bulkhead row on a 738 are the WORST seats on any DL airplane.  thumbsdown  I am not a tall person but I had NO legroom at all in those miserable seats. The bulkhead row in a CRJ has more legroom. I never knew I had claustrophobia until I sat there.  crowded 

I'm going to borrow a phrase from Ronald Regan and twist it a little:

Mr. Grinstein, TEAR DOWN THAT WALL!!!
 
aeroplan73
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 4:59 pm

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:00 pm

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 2):
Why are you unhappy sounds to me like Delta is doing the right thing and trying to lower fuel costs.

Lowering fuel costs is great, but hopefully not at the expense of key revenue business class sales.
I remember, the choices were chicken or fish. I had the lasagna.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13222
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:03 pm

Why don't they start with the obvious and install winglets on their 737-800s before getting to the drastic measures, I've gotten so accustomed to the 737-700s/800s with Winglets that seeing one without the winglets looks out of place.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
N867BX
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:19 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:47 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
Why don't they start with the obvious and install winglets on their 737-800s before getting to the drastic measures

That would cost money.
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7071
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:53 pm

Quoting N867BX (Reply 21):
That would cost money.

To save money, you have to spend money.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
Why don't they start with the obvious and install winglets on their 737-800s before getting to the drastic measures, I've gotten so accustomed to the 737-700s/800s with Winglets that seeing one without the winglets looks out of place.

Probably because the 738s are still used on quite a few runs where winglets would only mean additional weight. That said, the 757s coming from AA will have winglets, so that is at least something.
 
LawnDart
Posts: 861
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 11:33 pm

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:34 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 23):
That said, the 757s coming from AA will have winglets

Hmm...I'm not so sure about that. The 757s coming from AA are the P&W powered ones formerly used by TW (re-stating what has been discussed). They are not owned by AA, and I don't believe AA had any plans to add winglets on to 757s other than their RR powered examples.
 
widget1580
Posts: 286
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:14 pm

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:59 pm

Delta allows you to change your seating assignments on their website. If you have a problem with the bulkhead being removed, change your seat. Just becuase they're doing this does NOT mean they will automatically put you in the last row of F.

If you're upgrade is more important than the special needs passanger seated in the bulkhead, get over yourself.
KLM | Journeys of Inspiration
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 24):
Hmm...I'm not so sure about that. The 757s coming from AA are the P&W powered ones formerly used by TW (re-stating what has been discussed). They are not owned by AA, and I don't believe AA had any plans to add winglets on to 757s other than their RR powered examples.

Didn't mean that they already have winglets coming from AA. What I mean is that once DL takes delivery of those planes starting next summer, they will install the winglets themselves. That was buried somewhere in the initial press release.
 
Tod
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:51 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 10):
it was done mainly for "real estate" purposes

This is the main reason the some airlines chose a "mudflap" divider over a rigid class divider. You can place the first Y seat must further forward that way.
With a rigid divider you have to allow room for the F seat recline and the Y seat legroom.

Tod
 
ckfred
Posts: 4734
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:55 am

It seems to me that one advantage is that people in the bulkhead would now have underseat stowage space, under the last row of First. The disavantage with a hard bulkhead is that the only stowage space is the overhead.
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:35 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
Why don't they start with the obvious and install winglets on their 737-800s before getting to the drastic measures, I've gotten so accustomed to the 737-700s/800s with Winglets that seeing one without the winglets looks out of place.



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 22):
To save money, you have to spend money.

Where do they get the money to pay for these winglets? Remember they are in bankruptcy. Taking the bulkheads out only requires labor but adding winglets would require a large outlay of cash. Right now Delta does not have the cash for anything but the necessities.
 
FlyHoss
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:15 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 29):
Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 22):
To save money, you have to spend money.

Where do they get the money to pay for these winglets? Remember they are in bankruptcy. Taking the bulkheads out only requires labor but adding winglets would require a large outlay of cash. Right now Delta does not have the cash for anything but the necessities.

Yet, DL does have the money to buy a route from UA (a good move IMHO):
RE: DL JFK-LGW Receives Tentative DOT Approval (by Commavia Aug 26 2006 in Civil Aviation)#ID2955755
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:06 pm

Quoting Bohica (Reply 18):
I'm going to borrow a phrase from Ronald Regan and twist it a little:

Mr. Grinstein, TEAR DOWN THAT WALL!!!

LOL rotfl 

Quoting Aeroplan73 (Reply 19):
Lowering fuel costs is great, but hopefully not at the expense of key revenue business class sales.

What sales would be diminished? No seats are being removed. No seating differences are affected. So no loss of revenue sales.


Personally, I am saddened to see the bulkhead wall go away as the curtain(or mesh curtain that has been coming back) just seems a little tacky. The bulkhead walls can't really weigh that much, and I know there are light weight types of bulkheads, weighing less than 5 lbs. for a whole sheet. Granted, they are paper thin, but still are easier on the eyes than a mesh curtain. And I could not see 5 lbs crippling an airplane's fuel economy that much. Well, hopefully, fuel will not spike as it is rumored to and all of this would not have to last long.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
4xRuv
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:05 pm

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:50 am

Oh man, What's next?
Maybe they'll remove tha toilets from the plane? just leave holes instead?
Or maybe A Y-- class where you just sit on the floor tied with ropes to the floor? I bet that would save a lot of weight...

Now seriously, I get it, they want to save weight, but to decrease the contingency fuel? That's already a security issue.... especially nowadays where you can spend twice the time of your flight circling your destination...
 
aeroplan73
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 4:59 pm

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 31):
What sales would be diminished? No seats are being removed. No seating differences are affected. So no loss of revenue sales.

I realize the business class service would remain intact, but the overall experience could be diminished.

A simple curtain wouldn't provide the kind of cabin exclusivity, or noise reduction in the premium cabin.

Also, lets face it, when you pay over 3 grand to fly domestic business, you don't care much about a few pounds in airline weight saving.
I remember, the choices were chicken or fish. I had the lasagna.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11508
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting Aeroplan73 (Reply 33):
A simple curtain wouldn't provide the kind of cabin exclusivity, or noise reduction in the premium cabin.

How much noisier is it really? I fly NW a lot, and I really don't notice that much noise from Y.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 16):
I still can't get over the lack of people's ability to comprehend and adapt to change. How many times does this happen, honestly. Most passengers with a disability get up what 10 times a flight? I tend to forget how mobile they are. Or maybe that is just on your flights.

Why, exactly, should all people embrace all change? If the change is negative, why accept it. Because Delta's doing it and thus it can't be the wrong thing?

As for people getting up, YES, they do. Elderly people do get up from those seats, pulling very hard on anything they can grab, to use the restroom. Not too many elderly people in wheelchairs that I've seen can sit for a 5 hour flight and not use the restroom.

People with one leg? Likely not. And if you're asleep at 4am on a redeye and someone pulls on your seat really hard, don't even think of trying to tell me that that won't impact your day. And when they do it again to sit back down, just as you got back to sleep, you are going to have a tough time getting back to sleep a third time.

I've experienced it, it's not a great experience. I do my very best never to pull or lean on the seat in front of me when getting in and out, and given my height, this is much harder than it sounds.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 16):
Then the move will have even smaller of an impact on you.

I forgot how overprotective Delta fanboys are on this site. Get over yourself.

Quoting Widget1580 (Reply 25):
If you're upgrade is more important than the special needs passanger seated in the bulkhead, get over yourself.

Excuse me, but this is a problem DL is introducing that didn't exist, and saying it's a bad idea is not a matter of conceit. But making such statements like you have IS a matter of some attitude problem.

Of course, yet another Delta fanboy.

I wonder if you two would have such a holier than though attitude if it was CO proposing to do this, and not your precious Delta.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11508
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 35):
As for people getting up, YES, they do. Elderly people do get up from those seats, pulling very hard on anything they can grab, to use the restroom. Not too many elderly people in wheelchairs that I've seen can sit for a 5 hour flight and not use the restroom.

People with one leg? Likely not. And if you're asleep at 4am on a redeye and someone pulls on your seat really hard, don't even think of trying to tell me that that won't impact your day. And when they do it again to sit back down, just as you got back to sleep, you are going to have a tough time getting back to sleep a third time.

I've experienced it, it's not a great experience. I do my very best never to pull or lean on the seat in front of me when getting in and out, and given my height, this is much harder than it sounds.

What's the problem? If you are sitting in another row of F, the F passenger behind you can do it just as easily. FWIW, I cannot ever remember having my seat grabbed by a Y pax while sitting on the "bulkhead" in NW F (and I probably do 15 segments a year in those rows).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Alitalia744
Topic Author
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Delta Removing F/Y Bulkhead?

Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:12 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 35):
Of course, yet another Delta fanboy.

I wonder if you two would have such a holier than though attitude if it was CO proposing to do this, and not your precious Delta.

Easy there Ikramerica, not all Delta fan boys think this way.

I think it's a shitty idea and it annoys me to no end. There have to be other ways for Delta to save money, and while I applaud their fuel/weight saving proactivity, I do not applaud this move and find it more annoying than the 10lbs are worth.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.