tys777
Posts: 154
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:43 am

TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:56 am

TOL recieved a Fed. grant worth 400,000$ to secure NYC service. Airport has said that they will negogiate with 3 already identified carriers. Grant will be matched by local sources to total almost $1,000,000.

Link to article

I figured that the three carriers would be DL, CO, with Jet Blue possibly being a long shot.

According to a 2004 study done for the port authority, Toledoans make about 94,000 air trips per year to New York. But because of frequent nonstop service, and typically better fares at Detroit Metropolitan-Wayne County Airport, 10 percent or fewer of those trips are made from Toledo Express

I did a fare search for OCT 14-16 and the cheapest fare out of DTW was 183$ while the cheapest out of TOL was 402$. Surely an airline like Jet Blue could survive on a route like this.

Any thoughts?

P.S.
This is my first post on here (been reading forever though)

[Edited 2006-08-25 19:26:28]
 
WMUPilot
Posts: 1428
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:32 am

Gosh I hope the hillbillies in our route planning department jump on this faster than a fat kid on a cupcake!

We really need to start expanding more to the west than CMH. The only problem is i'm not sure we have the aircraft available right now to add a new city. Maybe with the closure of the BUR-LAS, MCO flights we could.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
as739x
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:40 am

Possibility of AirTran TOL-LGA?


ASLAX
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
tys777
Posts: 154
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:43 am

RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 2):
Possibility of AirTran TOL-LGA?

I don't see that happening, Airtran used to fly TOL back when they were a shell of the airline that they are now. If I remember right, they weren't getting the loads that they wanted due to not have the connections that passengers wanted. I believe the route was TOL-ATL.
 
MarkATL
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:07 am

RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:10 am

I hear the Mud Hens have a massive fan base in Queens. This should help.

I suspect CoExp, DL Conex, or AE will be bellying up to the table for this helping of corporate welfare.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 4):
suspect CoExp, DL Conex, or AE will be bellying up to the table for this helping of corporate welfare.

For Sure..what a waste of tax dollars..makes me sick.

It is not as if there are no flights available in a reasonable distance to NYC. This is just local greed to subsidize service that can not exist profitably on it's own merit. ( at most an hour from most anywhere in metro TOL to DTW via either 75/275 or 23/94)

The EAS is another example of this for many communites to have "airline service", when reasonable and affordable service is usually an hour or so drive away. Now if it a community say, Pierre, Sd (and I don't know if they are an EAS airport) that is diffferent.
 
tys777
Posts: 154
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:43 am

RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 5):
For Sure..what a waste of tax dollars..makes me sick.

It is not as if there are no flights available in a reasonable distance to NYC. This is just local greed to subsidize service that can not exist profitably on it's own merit. ( at most an hour from most anywhere in metro TOL to DTW via either 75/275 or 23/94)

The EAS is another example of this for many communites to have "airline service", when reasonable and affordable service is usually an hour or so drive away. Now if it a community say, Pierre, Sd (and I don't know if they are an EAS airport) that is diffferent.

I agree, it is a waste of tax money b ut when they offer it, why not use it?

An hour to DTW? more like 1 1/2 minimum
 
billreid
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:45 am

The TOL SCASD grant application was based upon B6 target.
You can assume that they will be looking for B6 to enter and stimulate service.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
tys777
Posts: 154
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 7):
The TOL SCASD grant application was based upon B6 target.
You can assume that they will be looking for B6 to enter and stimulate service.

Do you have a source for that?

I would like to see B6 be the one to get this and serve TOL
It would allow me to fly from BNA back to my hometown for a decent fare while at the same time avoiding DTW and ATL
 
MarkATL
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Tys777 (Reply 6):
I agree, it is a waste of tax money b ut when they offer it, why not use it?

An hour to DTW? more like 1 1/2 minimum

If there was a market for NYC-TOL non-stop service then their would be a flight. Glass capitol of the world or not, TOL is a low level secondary market. I think the people of Toledo could find better uses for their $$$. The two most populated cooridors into TOL are from the north and the east. you only have to go a few miles north before DTW is not that much farther. To the east CLE isn't that far either. I used to go Port Clinton all the time and didn't mind one bit flying into CLE.

I bet the guys who came up with this are frequnt useres of prostitutes....They understand the concept, if you're too pathetic to get it on your own....you have pay for it!  stirthepot 
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
billreid
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:10 am

Yes the applications were all viewable at the DOT website. I went through each and every application, reviewed them by dollar amount and by state.
Unfortunately that site is now closed because the awards have been issued.

from an air service standpoint B6 will review the market very carefully considering the grant and the support that is included by TOL. I recall the support tolalling well over 1MM$$ from TOL including all the community support.

On the flip side I thought the strangest SCASD award was the to LAWA for Palmdale. Here we had Los Angeles World Airports applying for a grant for a regional flight between two airports they already manage Palmdale and LAX.

Another interesting award was Melbourne FL. They have been looking for additional service for some time with little success. Most airlines see them as too close to SFB and MCO. We'll see, perhaps BRAD D. exDELTA now with SABRE can diliver the goods. Good luck Brad.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
MarkATL
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 10):
Another interesting award was Melbourne FL. They have been looking for additional service for some time with little success. Most airlines see them as too close to SFB and MCO

Not to mention DAB.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
billreid
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:21 am

Agreed, but a bit further than SFB/MCO.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
MarkATL
Posts: 486
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:31 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 12):
Agreed, but a bit further than SFB/MCO

I agree, my/our point is that the area is already VERY well served. SFB being so far east of town is quite close. Although at times I think it is the UKs most western airport.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
FATFlyer
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 10):
Unfortunately that site is now closed because the awards have been issued.

The DOT info is still available:
Results:
http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf97/408502_web.pdf

All applications can still be reviewed and read in this list:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...umberValue=23671&searchType=docket

Most people missed the thread on here with all the awards. It posted the day of the arrests in the UK.
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2930955
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
flyinryan99
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:19 pm

CO most likely won't go after this especially with them bringing Dash 8s on the TOL-CLE route in the near future.

B6 was the target of this route but haven't been too receptive to the idea but are still listening.

For those saying it's just easier to fly to DTW, that's not the point. The point is all of the Toledo residents using DTW are taking money away from the city/port authority. It may be just as easy to go up to DTW and take a direct flight. Personally (not just because I like TOL but from a pax standpoint), I would rather fly TOL any day over DTW even though I live right inbetween the two airports. I prefer to keep the money in my hometown. That being said, the problem is fares. Fares, fares, fares. It was said up higher that DTW is $183 and TOL is $402...There is too demand from this city, problem is they if can't compete in the fare department, they'll lose every time which is the case right now. That is why the TOL authority went after B6, new name and competive fares. Speaking of B6, how's it going there Brian??

FL won't touch TOL with a 10 foot pole, especially with DTW being so successful. I wouldn't be surprised if FL really tried to go after NK up there in trying to fly some core routes for them...maybe LGA and BOS and LAS. Never again will FL be in TOL.

Ryan

P.s. Most of Toledo's metro population is moving south and west.
 
DTWAGENT
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:51 pm

If TOL had more flights and advertised their airport more they would have a great thing on their hands. Look at FNT. A few years ago it was just like TOL now it has grown.

I know from my stand point and my clients if they could by pass DTW and go to TOL they would.

If your booking a cruise with air, it is cheeper out of TOL then DTW.

Chuck
 
masseybrown
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:06 am

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 9):
I used to go Port Clinton all the time and didn't mind one bit flying into CLE.

So did my family, from Maryland. Didn't you take the Port Clinton oath? ... to keep the place secret?
 
ouboy79
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting Tys777 (Reply 3):
I don't see that happening, Airtran used to fly TOL back when they were a shell of the airline that they are now. If I remember right, they weren't getting the loads that they wanted due to not have the connections that passengers wanted. I believe the route was TOL-ATL.

The loads were actually doing great before they left, but it was all low yeild traffic. Owens Corning, Dana, Owens Illinois, and the other major Toledo-based were married to Delta and their SkyMiles. Of course now Delta is shunning them with continued service cuts.

Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 5):
For Sure..what a waste of tax dollars..makes me sick.

It is not as if there are no flights available in a reasonable distance to NYC. This is just local greed to subsidize service that can not exist profitably on it's own merit. ( at most an hour from most anywhere in metro TOL to DTW via either 75/275 or 23/94)

Please keep in mind what these dollars have done before. Akron Canton is probably the best example. I don't really see how this is local greed? They asked for a measly $400K. Let see how many other towns out there asked for much more for projects like Cessna service to a major city, or for a Co-Op, or to get one RJ on an existing route/service. The key with TOL and markets like it before, the people are there...its just a matter of busting the fares and getting the service in there. Once that happens the people will change their habits.

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 9):
If there was a market for NYC-TOL non-stop service then their would be a flight. Glass capitol of the world or not, TOL is a low level secondary market. I think the people of Toledo could find better uses for their $$$. The two most populated cooridors into TOL are from the north and the east. you only have to go a few miles north before DTW is not that much farther. To the east CLE isn't that far either. I used to go Port Clinton all the time and didn't mind one bit flying into CLE.

Obviously your knowledge of the market and area is severely limited. There is a market for Las Vegas service, but the nonstop isn't there. Why? Costs are too high. Allegient was pulling 80% loads and TOL was their 4th largest city for the first half of the year. Sometimes you need incentives like this to help kick start a turn around. It should also be noted, this is the first time they are really going in and subsidizing the service directly like this. They have done incentives before...but that was mainly by way of free local advertising and reduced airport costs. They have never done a revenue guarantee before. So don't be to hard on this city...they have tried everything else before. Unlike other cities.

As far as the population make up. The majority of the growth is South and West. The old population centers north and east are declining as people migrate west closer to the airport and south into Wood County. At least these are where the higher income residents are going - which probably fly more than a family in the central city.

----

My feelings on this. They will approach Delta, but I hope they stay away. JetBlue is the obvious choice here that would really get the city moving. Continental would be nice, but I think they are happy with the CLE service. American wouldn't be that far out there. I would like to see them use an airline that has the ability to expand to multiple cities over time. This way if the grant is successful and really isn't need (Read: CAK), they can utilize those funds to support the start up of additional cities.
 
CMHSRQ
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:41 am

SRQ is an example of how a SCASD grant can turn an airport around. 3 years ago they had declining traffic and only 4 carriers. They got the grant, traffic is up 20% with FL, B6, and AC all new carriers all adding service. The grant was for FL to operate 2 flights to ATL and 1 to BWI. This winter they will operate 9 dailies to 5 different cities. So good luck TOL, just hope that the local population supports the flights and they don't all run off to DL to get the miles.
The voice of moderation
 
Dtw757
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting Tys777 (Reply 6):
An hour to DTW? more like 1 1/2 minimum

HUH? What part of Toledo takes 1 1/2 hours miniumum to DTW? From where I live in Toledo I can be to DTW in under an hour.
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
tys777
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 20):
What part of Toledo takes 1 1/2 hours miniumum to DTW? From where I live in Toledo I can be to DTW in under an hour.

The southern suburbs always took me around 1 1/2 to get to DTW, give or take 10 min
 
MarkATL
Posts: 486
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:47 am

The service will most likely be once a day. Don't look for any carrier to open a new station for this. The only ones going for this pure pork will be an airline that already has an station at TOL. In short, B6 is a loooooooong shot at best.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
joeman
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Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:07 am

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 18):
Allegient was pulling 80% loads and TOL was their 4th largest city for the first half of the year.



Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 18):
I believe the route was TOL-ATL.
The loads were actually doing great before they left, but it was all low yeild traffic

Good loads and can't make money in a market that is obviously there.

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 15):
Fares, fares, fares. It was said up higher that DTW is $183 and TOL is $402.

That was about NYC Service. So, drive to a hub or fly them to a one, soak them with higher fares and all answers are solved. How dumb is this industry these days?
 
ouboy79
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Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:41 am

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 22):
The service will most likely be once a day. Don't look for any carrier to open a new station for this. The only ones going for this pure pork will be an airline that already has an station at TOL. In short, B6 is a loooooooong shot at best.

I would recommend reading the TOL application. It actually does a cost break down on 2-3 daily trips and the expected financial performance. You may find it informative.

Quoting Joeman (Reply 23):
Good loads and can't make money in a market that is obviously there.

Absolutely. That is why American is running 4 flights a day to Chicago and they are perfectly happy. They were going to go to 7 daily at one point...but never went back there. The market is there for more, but they are making a killing on yeilds in the market. Why mess with making a ton of money by increase capacity?
 
Dtw757
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:44 pm

Quoting Tys777 (Reply 21):
The southern suburbs always took me around 1 1/2 to get to DTW, give or take 10 min

Even if you live in Perrysburg it shouldn't take 1 1/2 hours

Start: Perrysburg, Ohio, United States
End: Detroit Metropolitan Airport (airport), Romulus, Michigan, United States

Total distance: 63.4 mi
Estimated time: 1 Hour, 2 Minutes

To those who live is North Toledo/Point Place area DTW is a mere 40 miles away and they can probably make it to DTW almost as fast as going to TOL.

Don't get me wrong....I fly out of TOL when I can but when flying Northwest sometimes the connection to TOL is too long at DTW and I wouldn't want to sit there for 3 hours when I could have driven home and back in that amount of time.

As far as this nonstop to New York goes, I hope we can get someone like Jet Blue here but I'm not holding my breath.
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
MarkATL
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:07 am

RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:30 pm

Another thing to look at is IF B6 came the service would be to JFK. By the time you deal with the Van Wyck and the other JFK related issues (distance to the city, etc) yo might has well have gone to DTW and flown to LGA.

As for an airline flying from LGA, will the yields be high enough to "burn" 1-3 slots? Or can those be used on higher yielding routes.

This leaves EWR, great airport and great connection to the city. Say hello to COexp.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 17):
So did my family, from Maryland. Didn't you take the Port Clinton oath? ... to keep the place secret?

Shhhh, it was actually Catawba Island....exempt from the oath being outside the city limits. I could explain more, but as you know I'd have to kill ya. 

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 18):
There is a market for Las Vegas service, but the nonstop isn't there. Why? Costs are too high. Allegiant was pulling 80% loads and TOL was their 4th largest city for the first half of the year.

A leisure airline to a leisure market does not even qualify for comparison. You could fill an A380 in a high capacity configuration if the fares were low enough, and enough tour operators offed enough ways for people part with their money in Vegas. I'm going to be nice and call this comparrison niave.

Bottom line is I see any airport so close to another i.e. TOL to DTW. to be awarded ans EAS grant to be nothing more than pure waste of taxpayer money. The "E" stands for essential. There should be a seperate programe for these vanity requests via the commerce department or someting (if at all). The EAS was inot intended to help keep people from driving an additioal hour. It was intended to help people not drive an additional 4-5 hours.read next post, I got my facts wrong on this very important point.

As for Toledo itself, the best thing I can say about is, I had a great time there a couple years ago; but only after I nailed that girl from Holland (OH) at her place on my last night there.

[Edited 2006-08-27 16:52:12]
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4111
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 26):
Bottom line is I see any airport so close to another i.e. TOL to DTW. to be awarded ans EAS grant to be nothing more than pure waste of taxpayer money. The "E" stands for essential. There should be a seperate programe for these vanity requests via the commerce department or someting (if at all). The EAS was inot intended to help keep people from driving an additioal hour. It was intended to help people not drive an additional 4-5 hours.

Umm...do you even know what the SCASD program? Or Small Community Air Service Development program. This is for non-EAS markets that need a little help getting going. Such as Akron-Canton, Flint, Sarasota, and the numerous other mid size cities awarded over the years. This would explain why your posts are so negative on this grant, since it appears you think this is an EAS award...which it isn't. I guess (to borrow from your post) .....

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 26):
I'm going to be nice and call this comparrison niave.
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1427
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 26):
As for Toledo itself, the best thing I can say about is, I had a great time there a couple years ago; but only after I nailed that girl from Holland (OH) at her place on my last night there.

This is relevant how?

And please get with it...the award is for the SCASD as mentioned above not EAS. Once again, this has to do with keeping money in the city and the area economy. If this were anywhere related to Jeep, then you would see almost everyone in the city behind this. It's kind of sad actually. Maybe the city/port should make some signs that say "fly toledo" with a big heart on it just like the "keep jeep" campaign. Toledo is losing so much money with passengers going to Detroit to fly out. The market is there, just wait, you'll see. Just need to give it a kick start.
 
MarkATL
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:07 am

RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 27):
Umm...do you even know what the SCASD program? Or Small Community Air Service Development program. This is for non-EAS markets that need a little help getting going. Such as Akron-Canton, Flint, and the numerous other mid size cities awarded over the years. This would explain why your posts are so negative on this grant, since it appears you think this is an EAS award...which it isn't. I guess (to borrow from your post) .....

Ouch, I'm not even going to defend that then. Sometimes you just gotta admit you're a schmuck. I applaude your clever use using my own words, albeit out of context.
 white 

I still see it as pure pork wasted tax dollars.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4111
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 29):
Ouch, I'm not even going to defend that then. Sometimes you just gotta admit you're a schmuck. I applaude your clever use using my own words, albeit out of context.

No worries.  Smile It happens to us all. I can agree on the waste of tax dollars in certain cases. Such as some of the crazy bids such as Cessna service to St. Louis from some little town in Missouri. If I were more awake, I could find a ton for you that were grossly perfectly examples of pork. However, there are always a few here and there...such as CAK, FNT, SRQ, etc that over the years have proved to be great incentives to kick start service.
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1567
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 26):
Bottom line is I see any airport so close to another i.e. TOL to DTW. to be awarded ans EAS grant to be nothing more than pure waste of taxpayer money. The "E" stands for essential. There should be a seperate programe for these vanity requests via the commerce department or someting (if at all). The EAS was inot intended to help keep people from driving an additioal hour. It was intended to help people not drive an additional 4-5 hours.



Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 27):
Umm...do you even know what the SCASD program? Or Small Community Air Service Development program. This is for non-EAS markets that need a little help getting going. Such as Akron-Canton, Flint, Sarasota, and the numerous other mid size cities awarded over the years. This would explain why your posts are so negative on this grant, since it appears you think this is an EAS award...which it isn't. I guess (to borrow from your post) .....

Well, IMHO..EADS/ SCASD..whatever you want to call it in this case. TOL is not a small community nor should it be considered for EAS considering its' proxsimity to DTW or CLE as far as large metro airports are concerned. This is still a grand waste of tax dollars. Why should the taxws I pay support lower fares for NW Ohio residents/business for travel to NYC?

Just to throw another factor in, heck if you look at the map of NW Ohio, many potential TOL pax conceivably reside closer to FWA also.( this is using the logic of an hour to 90 min drive to an airport)

Maybe, we should make a case for folks in Ohio & Michigan to subsidize service from FAT to ORD, so my travels to the Chicago/Great lakes/ North East might be better than a connection in DFW/PHX/DEN/SLC/LAX/SFO ?

It isn't as if there are no alternatives for TOL pax to get to NYC!

This is another government program with great intentions that had enough loopholes in it to be ized and fly a 737 thru.
 
MarkATL
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:07 am

RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 28):
This is relevant how?

It's not, but I did have a great time.    Perhaps after reading this throngs of horney rich CEOs will fly to TOL to look at building manufacturing plants there....or not. I'm only trying to help. Obviously Jammie (Kilinger) Farr isn't pulling his weight anymore on civic issues. scratchchin 

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 28):
And please get with it...the award is for the SCASD as mentioned above not EAS

Already acknowledged on the my original an subsiqent post.

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 28):
The market is there, just wait, you'll see. Just need to give it a kick start.

That's your job as a community, not the federal government's job. Most people want the federal government out of local matters. Until that is they think it can benefit them.

[Edited 2006-08-27 17:16:42]
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
FWAERJ
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:09 am

Oddly enough, I read in the local paper a while back that FWA's catchment area had over 100,000 O&D pax to the NYC area each year, which is slightly more than TOL. Like TOL, though, less than 30% of the flights are through FWA... most pax choose (surprise!) IND. Fortunately, I hear that FWA is also trying to lure B6 service to JFK or COEx service to EWR with comparable co-op ad dollars and 2 years of free rent. They have been talking with both carriers a lot as of late.

Maybe the reason why B6 is only listening to TOL and not talking is FWA? Only time will tell.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
ouboy79
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 31):
Well, IMHO..EADS/ SCASD..whatever you want to call it in this case. TOL is not a small community nor should it be considered for EAS considering its' proxsimity to DTW or CLE as far as large metro airports are concerned. This is still a grand waste of tax dollars. Why should the taxws I pay support lower fares for NW Ohio residents/business for travel to NYC?

So are you also against the success this project has had at CAK and SRQ? Where, lets be honest, the money has already been recouped through taxes generated. I mean we can go over a list of cities much larger than TOL that have received these SCASD grants if you would like. In fact I believe FAT has received such grants...FATFlyer can probably confirm, I think it was for a subsidy for Alaska. So was it fair for my tax payers (mind you i'm in neither market) to help support development where you are?

Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 31):
Just to throw another factor in, heck if you look at the map of NW Ohio, many potential TOL pax conceivably reside closer to FWA also.( this is using the logic of an hour to 90 min drive to an airport)

TOL has roughly a 2-3% leakage to FWA...70-80% goes to DTW.

Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 31):
Maybe, we should make a case for folks in Ohio & Michigan to subsidize service from FAT to ORD, so my travels to the Chicago/Great lakes/ North East might be better than a connection in DFW/PHX/DEN/SLC/LAX/SFO ?

Again, I believe your city received one of these grants.

Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 31):
It isn't as if there are no alternatives for TOL pax to get to NYC!

This is another government program with great intentions that had enough loopholes in it to be ized and fly a 737 thru.

Have you read the restriction on the program? This only for small hub or smaller airports by the DOT's definition. Its not like grants are being given to IND, CMH, or similar facilities. Again, your apparent home town received a grant.

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 32):
That's your job as a community, not the federal government's job. Most people want the federal government out of local matters. Until that is they think it can benefit them.

The best part about this all...is the federal dollars are the minority of this package. TOL had put forth bids for NYC service before that had much more exposure for the federal dollars. They found a way to do it with less...400K...and the local exposure is much greater. I would not be shocked that this service is a success and the dollars are not used at all - much like was the case with CAK's bid for LGA service with FL.
 
MarkATL
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 34):
They found a way to do it with less...400K


Fine. Just give back the $400,000 and raise it locally. Maybe you could go to NYC and see if they'll chip in? I'm sure they just as upset about no being able to fly to Toledo non-stop, as you guys are about not being able to fly there.

I'm still convinced this is more about vanity than actual need. It ain't because of the market. Otherwise an airline would already be flying it.

If you guys really want B6 then this really is nothng but vanity. Add in the JFK factor and their is no time advantage over DTW to LGA or EWR.

[Edited 2006-08-27 19:56:29]
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
ouboy79
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:46 am

http://www.aviationplanning.com/smallcommunity.htm

I would recommend reading Boyd's site on the SCASD program. Especially the communities and purpose of the program. Are you demanding that cities like CAK, SRQ, and other markets that have received these funds pay them back? Honestly, the funds are recollected through increase revenue and tax on that revenue. It would be interesting to see a break down on the revenue generated from this program.



That is from Boyd's site on just the markets they have helped directly. TOL is not alone at all.
 
ouboy79
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:49 am

I wanted to point out Fresno, CA really quick...comment from Boyd's site:

Fresno, California: The Boyd Group helped the community win a $1 million grant, which was then used to negotiate new low-fare service to Frontier’s Denver hub. The Boyd Group developed traffic, route and revenue data to convince the airline to enter the market.

I think this goes right along with what you are you talking about Mark when it comes to just offering another option, versus really adding a market that is needed.
 
MarkATL
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:54 am

All I read was an add from a consulting firm wanting to get cities to PAY for their services weather or not successful. More tax dollars spent......
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
milesrich
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:25 am

UA operated, prior to deregulation and going back to the days of Viscounts and DC-6's, nonstops between TOL and EWR for years, as well as nonstops from EWR to CAK, YNG, MBS, GRR, LAN and FWA.
 
joeman
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 34):
TOL has roughly a 2-3% leakage to FWA...70-80% goes to DTW.



Quoting MarkATL (Reply 35):
I'm still convinced this is more about vanity than actual need. It ain't because of the market. Otherwise an airline would already be flying it.

Hmmmmn. Looks like the market is there, but why service the market when passengers can have the pleasure of being routed through the likes of DTW (even by just driving) or ATL. Another station to maintain is costly and really, that would chip away at the overly inflated passanger base that keeps DTW and ATL fuctioning at the level their at. Vanity? What if DTW or ATL were to rely on their own O&D.
 
ouboy79
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:47 am

Quoting Joeman (Reply 40):
Hmmmmn. Looks like the market is there, but why service the market when passengers can have the pleasure of being routed through the likes of DTW (even by just driving) or ATL. Another station to maintain is costly and really, that would chip away at the overly inflated passanger base that keeps DTW and ATL fuctioning at the level their at. Vanity? What if DTW or ATL were to rely on their own O&D.

Then what would be the point of offering any O&D markets except at the large hub airports? I mean its almost as if people just throw common sense out the window when they post here. Sure ATL, CLE, etc all have the nonstop service. However it seems as though, those from the larger cities feel these smaller ones shouldn't have the service.

If people are willing to fly it...then by all means. Otherwise, what is the point of offering any air service? Sometimes air service just needs a little kick start...much like Akron-Canton - and look at them now.
 
joeman
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:18 pm

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 41):
Then what would be the point of offering any O&D markets except at the large hub airports? I mean its almost as if people just throw common sense out the window when they post here. Sure ATL, CLE, etc all have the nonstop service. However it seems as though, those from the larger cities feel these smaller ones shouldn't have the service.

I support the service. My response was regarding vain large city hub netters that think the world revolves around them.
 
MarkATL
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting Joeman (Reply 42):
I support the service. My response was regarding vain large city hub netters that think the world revolves around them

I assume I'm one of those "vain large city hub netters that think the world revolves around them". Yes, I live in Atlanta...so? The catchent area of our airport blows Toledo away. That's neither a good thing or a bad thing, just a fact. However, when the largest airport in the world is also pulling 43% O/D passengers; I hardly think the civic leaders would be beggin' da man for some money to get an air to fly what would other wise be a money loosing route.

[Edited 2006-08-28 06:36:30]
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
MarkATL
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:43 pm

Quoting Joeman (Reply 40):
DTW or ATL were to rely on their own O&D.

At 43% O/D Atlant does pull the numbers, enough so that even AA operates p2p service ATL-LGA in comptition to DLs service. I fail to see your point here.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
joeman
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:35 pm

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 43):
However, when the largest airport in the world is also pulling 43% O/D passengers; I hardly think the civic leaders would be beggin' da man for some money to get an air to fly what would other wise be a money loosing route.

I hope not. With 53% of ATL traffic coming from other destinations, to go to other destinations, why can't Toledo have a lousy flight to NYC unless you are already aware of actual TOL-NYC O&D. If it's so low that it's impossible to even break even, I'll agree it's a waste of cash and in that case TOL is lucky to be within driving range of NYC.

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 44):
At 43% O/D Atlant does pull the numbers, enough so that even AA operates p2p service ATL-LGA in comptition to DLs service. I fail to see your point here.

The point was as with any hub, if your not servicing other cities O&D, especially to the extent that ATL does, there would be substantial cuts. The busiest airport does not service the biggest city nor catchment area.
 
joeman
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:38 pm

Quoting Joeman (Reply 45):
'll agree it's a waste of cash and in that case TOL is lucky to be within driving range of NYC.

I meant DTW, but NYC too.
 
MarkATL
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:06 pm

Quoting Joeman (Reply 45):
Toledo have a lousy flight to NYC unless you are already aware of actual TOL-NYC O&D.

Well it's simple....It's not commercially viable without civic welfare payments to cover the costs. I would sure like to live in a place like LA, SF Bay, Chicago, NYC or Washington Metro and be able to have both an NL and an AL baseball team. However, as that is not economical viable it won't happen. It's simple economics. Your community currently can't support this flight without my tax dollars, therefore I oppose it and waste.

When I lived in Charleston I had to change planes to get to either ORD or MDW. Did I cry to my congressman to fork over some tax dollars to subsidize the cost of my ticket, so I wouldn't have to chill in ATL,CLT,MEM,CLE,IAD or PHL for an hour or so. Hell I didn't even have a DTW within EASY driving distance, CLT and ATL were 3 and 4 hours away.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
joeman
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:46 pm

I hear you, but my tax dollars have been spent on lots of what I feel is waste. In fact, they've been used to protect DL, apparently a not commercially viable entity, not that I think that's a waste.
 
Falcon84
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RE: TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service

Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 15):
CO most likely won't go after this especially with them bringing Dash 8s on the TOL-CLE route in the near future.

I've never heard that we'll be putting Dash anythings in our fleet in CLE. We have the Beech1900 for Commutair, the Saab 340 for Regions Air, and Commutair, from all indications, will be getting 37-seat Q200's to expand with out of CLE late in '06 and into '07.
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