SHUPirate1
Topic Author
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Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:12 am

Just heard on CNBC...more news undoubtedly to follow.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
nuggetsyl
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:18 am

wow no suprise there.
 
Dtw757
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:19 am

Channel 4 in Detroit now reporting as well
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
SHUPirate1
Topic Author
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:24 am

Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
SHUPirate1
Topic Author
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:27 am

And from the Minneapolis Star-Tribune:

http://www.startribune.com/535/story/636013.html
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
KarlB737
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:27 am

Courtesy: WDIV-TV

Judge Blocks NWA Flight Attendants From Strike

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/9738020/detail.html
 
aviationwiz
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:28 am

If NWA can impose a contract, the F/A's can strike. This is total BS.
Proudly from the Home of the Red Tail.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:30 am

Booo...I was hoping to watch the stupidity through to its logical end.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:34 am

A federal judge blocked Northwest Airlines flight attendants from going on strike Friday, handing a victory to the cash-strapped airline.

U.S. District Judge Victor Marrero said he will issue an injunction that allows time for him to examine the case. He said Northwest Airlines Corp. made a “persuasive case” that a delay in any strike was necessary so that the legal issues could be
resolved.

He said that while the injury to flight attendants would be to delay their ability to strike, “far greater injuries exist to Northwest and the public by permitting the strike to commence at this point.”

Northwest, already operating under bankruptcy protection, has said a strike could kill it. It is Michigan’s largest passenger air carrier.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...icle?AID=/20060825/NEWS99/60825018
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
nuggetsyl
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:35 am

now this is funny
t4
http://www.nwaafa.org/
 
mrstl
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting Aviationwiz (Reply 6):
If NWA can impose a contract, the F/A's can strike. This is total BS.

Agreed, this is a sad day for labor. The consequences will have a ripple effect to negotiations at other airlines...
 
robsawatsky
Posts: 477
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting Nuggetsyl (Reply 9):
now this is funny
t4
http://www.nwaafa.org/

This is exactly the kind of performance that keeps me from giving most unions any respect. It is a perfect example of group behaviour; people doing something as a group they would never contemplate as an individual. Childish, unprofessional and superficial.
 
khobar
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 10):
Agreed, this is a sad day for labor. The consequences will have a ripple effect to negotiations at other airlines...

Maybe a sad day for labor but a happy day for the customers who won't get screwed by them.
 
Alias1024
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting Aviationwiz (Reply 6):
If NWA can impose a contract, the F/A's can strike. This is total BS.

Agreed. Right now it sounds like a temporary injunction while the legal issues are worked out since this is uncharted territory. If a strike is ruled to be illegal, then the imposed contract should be illegal as well, and the old contract reinstated.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
Dtw757
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting Aviationwiz (Reply 6):
This is total BS.

No, it isn't BS. Times are hard for a company that is 80 years old. Every effort must be made by the management team to pull the company through these hard times to protect the jobs of all the employees who want to work there.

If the flight attendants think they are so irreplacable and their skills are so valuable in the world, I'm sure another company would be glad to put their skills to work for them. When times are hard for the company and you don't like what they have to offer you, you move on. You say thanks but no thanks and you think you'll move on to a company that can pay you what you deserve.

Head over to any company and say "Look I can serve meals and drinks, count heads and manage paperwork, I can save lives if needed and I can travel and work flexible schedules including nights, holidays and weekends" then you ask "how much is that worth to you?" You might not like what they have to say but if you do take the job. If you dont like what they say take what your current company has to offer you for now so that you are employed and look for work elsewhere.
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
aviationwiz
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 12):
Maybe a sad day for labor but a happy day for the customers who won't get screwed by them.

What about those same customers who want the law to be upheld.
Proudly from the Home of the Red Tail.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 12):
but a happy day for the customers who won't get screwed by them.

Not really.
Tomorrow and especially Monday, the "I'm sick" calls should start hot and
heavy.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
aviationwiz
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 14):
No, it isn't BS. Times are hard for a company that is 80 years old. Every effort must be made by the management team to pull the company through these hard times to protect the jobs of all the employees who want to work there.

When I made the comment I didn't have anything in mind except the law. The airline was allowed to impose it's own contract, which is against the RLA, but when the F/A's want to strike because of that (also against the RLA), it is ruled illegal (for now at least.)

The law should be upheld equally for all parties, which right now, it isn't.
Proudly from the Home of the Red Tail.
 
DashTrash
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting Aviationwiz (Reply 15):
What about those same customers who want the law to be upheld.

Caveat Emptor.
 
1rocco
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:02 am

Lets not forget this is far from over!!! The judge still hasn't ruled yet. It took Judge Gropper a few days for his decision. There is still a higher court to rule.. Keep your chins up NWA f/a's..
 
KabAir
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:02 am

They may not be going "on strike" but I'd hate to be a NW customer the next few days. I doubt there will be too many happy peppy FA's and I wouldn't be surprised to see service levels go down. Or as someone else suggested, sick calls may start pouring in. Hard to "prove" someone wasn't sick. Though I think if that happens the FA's will hurt their own case - the judge will see that action and have very little desire to allow them to strike later on. IMHO.
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
wjcandee
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting Aviationwiz (Reply 6):
If NWA can impose a contract, the F/A's can strike. This is total BS.

How interesting that you know more about the Railway Labor Act than a United States District Judge. Frankly, it is an interesting legal question as to how the Railway Labor Act interfaces with the Bankruptcy Act in this circumstance, which is what the judge must decide. Personally, I would be interested to see the parties' briefs on the subject.
 
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mariner
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Booo...I was hoping to watch the stupidity through to its logical end.

It is always instructive to see how many here on airliners.net take such pleasure in seeing the average airline employee shafted.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Junction
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 8):
“far greater injuries exist to Northwest and the public by permitting the strike to commence at this point.”

This statement by the judge, in my opinion, didn’t make any sense. Isn’t that the whole point of a strike?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
It is always instructive to see how many here on airliners.net take such pleasure in seeing the average airline employee shafted.

When said employee thinks that by shafting the customer, they'll somehow improve their lot, then yes, it's nice to see karma come back around.

Moreover it's tough to sympathize with flight crews when you're an ivy league grad making less money than entry level flight attendants at a low cost carrier, yet working twice the hours. But I stayed at the job because I loved it, not because some union felt I deserved a lifetime appointment.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
piercey
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:12 am

Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
 
dc10s4ever
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:18 am

This is total bull crap. Makes the whole point to a union meaningless. If I were the FA's at NW, I would tell the judge to pound sand, walk out irregardless of his orders and shut down the airline. The pay the airline is handing out the FA's is an insult.

There are other ways the FA's can get even. They can remain in their jump seats for the duration of a flight and refuse to serve passengers. They are there for safety, but as far as service I would not even get someone a glass of water.
 
socal
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:22 am

Am the President IBPO Local 572 and I know if you go too far with an issue, it will ultimately hurt the union members in the long run. How smart is it to strike when your very own employer is in bankruptcy protection. The FA should seek employment elsewhere.
I Love HNL.............
 
KabAir
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 26):
There are other ways the FA's can get even. They can remain in their jump seats for the duration of a flight and refuse to serve passengers. They are there for safety, but as far as service I would not even get someone a glass of water

And you wonder why many people on this board have a dim view of FA's.....
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting KabAir (Reply 28):
And you wonder why many people on this board have a dim view of FA's.....

It's because they can't seem to understand something as crystal clear, obvious, and self evident as this:

Quoting Socal (Reply 27):
the President IBPO Local 572 and I know if you go too far with an issue, it will ultimately hurt the union members in the long run.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
tys777
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:47 am

“Management and the courts can stall us, but they cannot defeat us," said Mollie Reiley, Interim Master
Executive Council President. “Our crusade to protect our careers has only begun."

What Careers are you going to have when NWA doesn't exist anymore??
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:49 am

Here is the union propaganda...


NORTHWEST FLIGHT ATTENDANTS

STRIKE TEMPORARILY BLOCKED



New York, NY - A United States district court judge today temporarily blocked a planned strike by Northwest flight attendants until he has time to review the case. Judge Victor Marrero said a decision could come as early as next week on whether to grant Northwest Airlines an injunction that would prevent the flight attendants, represented by the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA (AFA-CWA), from striking in response to the company's rejection of their collective bargaining agreement.



"Management and the courts can stall us, but they cannot defeat us," said Mollie Reiley, Interim Master Executive Council President. "Our crusade to protect our careers has only begun. We will continue to fight for Northwest flight attendants and all flight attendants who will walk in our footsteps."



On July 31, the company imposed terms outlined in a tentative agreement that was overwhelmingly rejected by the flight attendants months earlier. The terms consisted of over 40 percent reductions in salary and benefits and as much as 25 percent additional work hours. AFA-CWA issued the company notice of their intent to strike as early as August 25 at 9:01 pm CDT. Under the Railway Labor Act, any unilateral change in a contract triggers a right to strike. Following the strike notice, the company quickly filed for an injunction, but a federal bankruptcy court denied the motion earlier this month.



While the judge considers his ruling, Northwest flight attendants continue to count down for CHAOST. CHAOS, or Create Havoc Around Our SystemT, is AFA-CWA's trademarked strategy of targeted work actions using random, unannounced strikes.



"We will continue to prepare ourselves and our members for CHAOS; this is NOT over," said Reiley. "Something is terribly wrong when a company that just made a quarterly operating profit of nearly $200 million continues to insist on the same cuts it demanded from flight attendants when it was losing money."



For over 60 years, the Association of Flight Attendants has been serving as the voice for flight attendants in the workplace, in the aviation industry, in the media and on Capitol Hill. More than 55,000 flight attendants at 20 airlines come together to form AFA-CWA, the world's largest flight attendant union. AFA is part of the 700,000-member strong Communications Workers of America (CWA), AFL-CIO. Visit us at www.afanet.org.
 
mrstl
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:53 am

American Airlines unions side with Northwest flight attendants
Friday August 25, 5:41 pm ET


The three unions at American Airlines say they support Northwest Airlines Corp. flight attendants, who have threatened to strike as soon as Friday night.
The Allied Pilots Association, the Association of Professional Flight Attendants and the Transport Workers Union issued a joint statement saying the new contract proposed by Northwest Airlines' (Pink Sheets: NWACQ - News) management was nonconsensual and contained steep pay cuts and significant work rule changes.

ADVERTISEMENT


"As we await a ruling today by U.S. District Judge Victor Marrero in New York regarding whether the flight attendants will be permitted to proceed with their planned work stoppages, we would like to express our support for the flight attendants' efforts to resist the imposition of a new contract against their will and we urge Northwest Airlines' management to reconsider its actions," the unions said. "A consensual resolution to this impasse is in the best interests of all concerned."

Fort Worth-based Allied Pilots Association represents the 13,000 pilots of American Airlines, including 2,890 pilots on furlough. The Association of Professional Flight Attendants represents more than 22,620 American flight attendants, including 4,084 furloughed attendants. The Transport Workers Union represents nearly 125,000 workers in the transportation industries, including 55,000 workers in the airline and government service industries.

American Airlines, which is owned by Fort Worth-based AMR Corp. (NYSE: AMR - News) is the nation's largest passenger carrier.

Web sites: www.alliedpilots.org, www.apfa.org, www.twuatd.org

Published August 25, 2006 by the Dallas Business Journal
 
khobar
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:00 am

Quoting Aviationwiz (Reply 15):
What about those same customers who want the law to be upheld.

I don't think most customers have much sympathy for those who bite the hand that feeds them, but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are referring to, so can you be more specific?

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
It is always instructive to see how many here on airliners.net take such pleasure in seeing the average airline employee shafted.

Is anyone holding a gun to their head forcing anyone to remain an average airline employee? And if an average airline employee is getting shafted, what makes it right for them to take it out on the customers?

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 16):
Tomorrow and especially Monday, the "I'm sick" calls should start hot and heavy.

And when sick time expires...?
 
Sinlock
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 26):
Makes the whole point to a union meaningless

I'm sure the that the mechanics at NK would disagree with that statement. They received two weeks notice that their pay rates would be cut 20% and an extra 2 years added to the top out scale. And being non-union they had no say other than quit.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:35 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 8):
He said that while the injury to flight attendants would be to delay their ability to strike, “far greater injuries exist to Northwest and the public by permitting the strike to commence at this point.”

This is the most common reason for a TEMPORARY injunction such as this. People spouting off about the law and such need to step back and look at the reasoning.

The judge did NOT say a strike is illegal. He said he needs time to make sure this strike is legal, and doing nothing can cause irreparable harm to the airline, while postponing a strike by a few days does not do the same to the union.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 13):
Agreed. Right now it sounds like a temporary injunction while the legal issues are worked out since this is uncharted territory. If a strike is ruled to be illegal, then the imposed contract should be illegal as well, and the old contract reinstated.

The courts when enforcing or lifting injunctions must always weigh the impact of the decision, and whether an action, no matter how temporary, could destroy one of the parties. If the court allows this to happen, it basically grants a victory to the other side before a legal decision is even reached.

This is similar to the Echostar v. TiVO lawsuit recently, where an injunction was ordered to be halted as it would have destroyed the business of Echostar had it gone into effect even though the final rulings were months away. It doesn't meant TiVo was wrong, only that until everything is looked over more carefully, allowing the decision to destroy one company isn't fair to the shareholders or customers of that company.

If the strike action is legal, I expect the judge will allow it in a few days, and likely tell both sides FIRST, giving them time to bargain again before doomsday...

And isn't that really what NW employees want? To get a fair contract and keep their jobs?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 32):
American Airlines unions side with Northwest flight attendants

I would too. Put NW out of business increases the AA union's chances of getting raises and keeping the airline profitable.. You strike NW FA's!

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 26):
This is total bull crap. Makes the whole point to a union meaningless. If I were the FA's at NW, I would tell the judge to pound sand, walk out irregardless of his orders and shut down the airline. The pay the airline is handing out the FA's is an insult.

The FA's made the union meaningless by union shopping, coming to tenative agreements twice with two different unions and not supporting either of the duly appointed bargaining committees...plural. If I were the company, I would tell the union to pound salt.

Quoting Socal (Reply 27):
Am the President IBPO Local 572 and I know if you go too far with an issue, it will ultimately hurt the union members in the long run. How smart is it to strike when your very own employer is in bankruptcy protection. The FA should seek employment elsewhere.

Absolutely.
 
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mariner
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
When said employee thinks that by shafting the customer, they'll somehow improve their lot, then yes, it's nice to see karma come back around.

It all comes home to bad management. They're the ones shafting the customer by providing appalling labor relations.

In review:

NWA benefits from massive government intervention in the market place, in the form of Chapter 11.

NWA have already shafted their shareholders to the tune of billions.

NWA says that they need huge subsidies from their employees in order to survive.

A judge precludes action by those same employees, despite the fact that there is little legal precedent for what NWA is trying to do.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articl..._0_AIRLINES-NORTHWEST-UPDATE-3.XML

Labor experts have long debated the issue, noting the lack of precedent to clarify the matter.

And you sneer at the employees for trying to stand up for themselves.

Wow.

I bet Swissair and Sabena wish they had been able to incorporate under US laws.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
wjcandee
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 37):
there is little legal precedent for what NWA is trying to do.

Or for what the AFA is claiming, either. That's why it's an interesting legal question.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:18 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 35):
This is the most common reason for a TEMPORARY injunction such as this. People spouting off about the law and such need to step back and look at the reasoning.

The judge did NOT say a strike is illegal. He said he needs time to make sure this strike is legal, and doing nothing can cause irreparable harm to the airline, while postponing a strike by a few days does not do the same to the union.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 35):
The courts when enforcing or lifting injunctions must always weigh the impact of the decision, and whether an action, no matter how temporary, could destroy one of the parties. If the court allows this to happen, it basically grants a victory to the other side before a legal decision is even reached.

This is similar to the Echostar v. TiVO lawsuit recently, where an injunction was ordered to be halted as it would have destroyed the business of Echostar had it gone into effect even though the final rulings were months away. It doesn't meant TiVo was wrong, only that until everything is looked over more carefully, allowing the decision to destroy one company isn't fair to the shareholders or customers of that company.

If the strike action is legal, I expect the judge will allow it in a few days, and likely tell both sides FIRST, giving them time to bargain again before doomsday...

And isn't that really what NW employees want? To get a fair contract and keep their jobs?

Great post! Cuts through the crap and puts it in perspective.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 38):
Or for what the AFA is claiming, either. That's why it's an interesting legal question.

And isn't that the point of the injunction? Not to rule that the strike is illegal, but to determine the legality of the issues? I'm with you.

-Dave
-Dave
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:25 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 37):
And you sneer at the employees for trying to stand up for themselves.

I'm all for the employees striking. I've been waiting for one of the unions to actually make good on their strike promise since US went into bankruptcy the first time. Tell me how the employees "standing up for themselves" by striking is going to help anything.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
wjcandee
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:32 am

You know, this is the kind of reporting that should make the media embarrassed. But it doesn't:

From the Reuters story cited above: "The AFA had threatened surprise, intermittent strikes starting at 10:01 p.m. EDT (0201 GMT on Saturday) on Friday unless the airline negotiated a contract. The union issued its strike threat after the airline voided its previous contract and imposed new terms that give Northwest $195 million in annual savings."

Don't let your bias show, guys. The accurate statement would be: "The Union issued its strike threat after its members rejected a new contract that had been negotiated between the union and the airline, after which the airline imposed the negotiated contract pursuant to its rights under US bankruptcy law. The contract that the union had negotiated with the airline gave Northwest $195 million in annual savings. Although the union recognizes the company's right to impose the contract, it claims that the imposition of the contract under bankruptcy law means that the union does not have to honor another US law, called the Railway Labor Act, which prevents airline workers from striking unless freed to do so by a Federal labor mediator. Despite the recent spate of airline bankruptcies in the United States, all recently-bankrupt carriers were able to win membership approval of the agreements that they negotiated with their labor unions while in bankruptcy, so the present dispute raises apparently-unsettled questions of American labor law."

It's also freakin' amazing to me that nobody in the media has bothered to analyze how the contract that the AFA negotiated with Northwest stacks up against FA contracts negotiated with other bankrupt and non-bankrupt carriers, including a fair discussion of the non-hourly benefits (per diems, paid vacation and sick days, pension contributions, health insurance, etc.) that often add a big pile of $$ to the total cost to the airline of the contract. At a company I worked for, they once tried to show us how we were the highest-paid folks in our business in that city (excluding, of course, "market aberrations" -- which meant the couple of companies that paid way more than we were getting). They did a big presentation, showing how our health club dues, 401K contributions, life insurance, etc., etc. added up. You know what we told them: "screw the benefits, except health insurance, and give us the money". They did, and most people were a lot happier. I myself left and went to one of the "market aberrations".

[Edited 2006-08-26 01:39:59]
 
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mariner
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RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 40):
I'm all for the employees striking.

Why have you been waiting for a strike if you don't know what a strike will achieve?

You just want a strike for - the heck of it?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 40):
Tell me how the employees "standing up for themselves" by striking is going to help anything.

In simple terms, a strike might - stress "might" - force a reconsideration of policy on the part of management - or, perhaps more importantly, the BOD.

American Airlines came very close to Chapter 11 and industrial chaos - (over executive remuneration - bonuses and pension protections)).

American sacked the CEO, saved the airline from Chapter 11, are extremely profitable despite the price of oil, made a lot of money for shareholders and have relative industrial peace.

One has to assume that the BOD at NWA approves of the CEO going nuclear with the employees, and that thus it is corporate policy.

As such, it it is not the employees that will shaft the customers. And it if takes industrial action to make the BOD reconsider, it may well prove worth it.

Or - perhaps the BOD wants to go to the wall?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 5450
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:02 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 42):
Why have you been waiting for a strike if you don't know what a strike will achieve?

You just want a strike for - the heck of it?

I think his point - and I might be mistaken - was "Hey, if you say you are gonna strike, then strike." I guess he wants to see them follow through on the threat so that the consequences - good, bad, or otherwise - would be seen by all.

If it happened, and the airline buckled under the pressure, then the union's tactics won out. If it happened, and the airline operated on a limited basis until replacement workers came on board - then perhaps the airline's tactics won out. If the airline collapses, I think we can all agree that nobody won out.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 42):
As such, it it is not the employees that will shaft the customers.

Depending on the situation, I might change that to "It is not JUST the employees that will shaft the customers." or "It is not SOLELY the employees that will shaft teh customers."

Sometimes the phrase "It takes two to tango" is appropriate.

-Dave
-Dave
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15254
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:15 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 42):
Why have you been waiting for a strike if you don't know what a strike will achieve?

The unions think it's a solution, so let's see it in play.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 42):
In simple terms, a strike might - stress "might" - force a reconsideration of policy on the part of management - or, perhaps more importantly, the BOD.

Well let's find out already. Unions think that basic economics don't apply to them so I'm curious to see how striking is going to either create more revenue or lower costs in the short or long run. I'm fairly certain it will do neither Silly.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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TVNWZ
Posts: 1655
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:41 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 41):
I myself left and went to one of the "market aberrations".

Good advice. And the NW flight attendants should follow it. Quit. Get another job.
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4595
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:51 am

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 14):
Every effort must be made by the management team to pull the company through these hard times to protect the jobs of all the employees who want to work there.

NW management hasn't really given a crap about protecting jobs in a while.

Quoting Khobar (Reply 33):
And when sick time expires...?

Why should that matter? They just wouldn't be getting paid for it, after that. "Sick time" is a farce anyway, as nobody can choose how long they will stay ill.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18187
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:03 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
The unions think it's a solution, so let's see it in play.

What union said that? It is a tactic, not a solution.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
Well let's find out already.

I agree. But not with the threat of fines - or worse - hanging over their heads.

You may prefer they break the law. I don't, however weighted the law may be to the employer.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
Unions think that basic economics don't apply to them

What union has said that? I believe the union in this case stands ready to negotiate.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
I'm curious to see how striking is going to either create more revenue or lower costs in the short or long run

Other than you, who is claiming that it will?

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 43):
Sometimes the phrase "It takes two to tango" is appropriate.

As above, I believe the union stands ready to tango.

But you can only tango successfully with a willing partner.

Good labor relations are not created overnight, but over years. NWA reaps what it has sewn - and sometimes it seems to want that harvest.

Bad labour relations can be changed - sometimes quite quickly, as with American Airlines above - but it requires some distinct action that may create the environment for change on management's part.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 43):
If the airline collapses, I think we can all agree that nobody won out.

I'm not sure that I can agree with that. Why is a badly run corporation that has squandered huge profits be worth saving? Why would that be "a win"?

An extreme action - however precipitate, whatever the consequences - may change the face of industrial relations for some time.

And given what has been done to labor over the past four years - with regard to pensions and medical benefits especially - a change in attitude by managers might not be such a bad thing.

Otherwise, slashing labor costs becomes their first response to any crisis, not the last.

They will always shift the blame for their own ineptitude to the cost of labor.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1259
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:14 am

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 45):
Good advice. And the NW flight attendants should follow it. Quit. Get another job

I think this is GREAT advice and they should all pack up what's left of their dignity and walk out of the job tomorrow. Just quit. That would be the thing to do if they truly don't like their jobs.
 
FCYTravis
Posts: 1172
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:21 am

RE: Judge Blocks FA Chaos Campaign!

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:21 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 41):
Although the union recognizes the company's right to impose the contract, it claims that the imposition of the contract under bankruptcy law means that the union does not have to honor another US law, called the Railway Labor Act, which prevents airline workers from striking unless freed to do so by a Federal labor mediator.

Way to show your biases. The Railway Labor Act is clear. If a company imposes a contract on its employees against their will, the employees then have the right to self-help, and that means striking. Otherwise, there is absolutely no incentive for the company to negotiate at all. Bankruptcy is not a ticket to do anything you want to your workers.
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