mu2
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US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:21 am

This was in the weekly newsletter!

Q. A hot trend in the industry right now is retrofitting Boeing
fleets (737/757) with blended winglets for fuel savings. Southwest
has led the way, but Continental, American, Alaska, and Aloha
are some of the other carriers that have caught on. I’ve read
that the ROI (return on investment) is about two years and the
cost savings are significant. Are we ignoring this possible cost
savings? It seems like the aircraft could easily undergo this
modification while going in for the new paint job. What’s the
story?
A. Many airlines are installing these winglets on their airplanes
although it will likely take longer than two years for them to
get their return on investment. The fact is, the business case for
installation depends on how and on what routes an airline intends
to operate the aircraft, the price of the winglets, the price of fuel,
the age of the plane and retirement plans/conditions for the aircraft.
Because of the details involved, it’s not possible, or practical in
some cases, for us to put winglets on much of our fleet. We will,
however, be adding winglets to certain B757 aircraft that we plan
to use primarily for long-range, over water flying well into the next
decade.
 
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DesertFlyer
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:24 am

I can't wait to see them. It should help with those Hawaii routes.
 
aviatortj
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting DesertFlyer (Reply 1):
Because of the details involved, it’s not possible, or practical in
some cases, for us to put winglets on much of our fleet.

Read HP 757s, all 733s, and all 734s. Should look cool once these show up. How about winglets on the busses?
 
COERJ145
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:31 am

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 2):
How about winglets on the busses?

Now those would look ridiculous!  yuck 
 
gigneil
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:32 am

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 2):
Read HP 757s, all 733s, and all 734s

No, I am confident its saying they will NOT be putting them on the 733s or 734s.

N
 
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aloha73g
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:34 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 4):

No, I am confident its saying they will NOT be putting them on the 733s or 734s.

I think that is what he was trying to say....that the 757s from US East would be the only ones receiveing winglets.

-Aloha
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
SlimChance
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:24 am

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 2):
How about winglets on the busses?

Oh come on now. Busses don't have wings. Big grin
 
Charliejag1
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 5):
I think that is what he was trying to say....that the 757s from US East would be the only ones receiveing winglets.

I don't see why we wouldn't put winglets on the ETOPS west 757s. Of the 13 west 757s, 9 of them are ETOPS certified and fly to Hawaii. We also fly them to big markets like DFW, JFK, ORD, etc, but those are mostly non-ETOPS.
The idea is, if the planes fly long legs (hawaii, transcontinental, or europe), the winglets will be worth the investment in about 2 years. I don't see why the east 757s would get them and not the west planes, europe legs are about the same length as hawaii legs and coast to coast flights arent that much shorter, especially in the winter. Besides, the certificates will be merged in Q2 07, so the planes will be interchangable throughout much of the route system, excluding ETOPS and MNPS restrictions.
 
hawaiian717
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:00 am

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 3):
Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 2):
How about winglets on the busses?

Now those would look ridiculous!

You mean like this?


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © French Frogs AirSlides

 
HPRamper
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:30 pm

I'd expect all the ETOPS 757s to get winglets. I think three more are getting certification. I also think the quote above from the employee newsletter only thinly disguises the fact that the 733s and maybe some of the 734s will probably not be too much longer for the US fleet. "Much of our fleet" excluding the 757s...put two and two together.
 
Aviator27
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:12 pm

Winglets are expensive. I believe they go for about $250,000 per set plus one week of non-productive hangar time sitting on the ground. Its not just the price of making the winglets, but the cost of engineering and flight certification included. It is cold hard cash that airlines have to come up with and then lost revenue from not flying that airplane for one week.

On a typical transcon, you can expect to save about 5% in fuel burn. That equates to roughly 625 kg savings for a 5 hour flight on the B737. That is 781 liters of jet fuel or 206 gallons. According to the USDOT, jet fuel cost airlines about $1.91/gallon. So that translates into $394 for one five hour flight. At that rate it would take 635 flights to recoup your money. Please note these are not exact figures but a rough estimate of 2500 kgs/hour fuel burn during cruise for the B737.

There are additional benefits which are hard to quantify, like improved takeoff performance. You need less thrust from the engines and this extends the life of the engines resulting in lower maintenance costs.

Winglets aren't a slam dunk concept. It is interesting to note the longest range airliner, the B777, does not have winglets at all.
 
mah584jr
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:14 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 9):
the 733s and maybe some of the 734s will probably not be too much longer for the US fleet

I do agree that within the next few years that the US 737 fleet will diminish significantly.

I love winglets and I think the 757 winglets will look fantastic on US 757s. Is there any clue as to when they may be installing them?

Also, for those of you who work for US, is there anything else noteworthy that you are able to share from the company newsletter?
 
SonOfACaptain
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:20 pm

Quoting Mah584jr (Reply 11):
Also, for those of you who work for US, is there anything else noteworthy that you are able to share from the company newsletter?

Sure, but you can read it for yourself.  Smile

http://justplanenews.com/PDF/aboutUS_082406.pdf

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
Charliejag1
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:18 pm

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 10):
There are additional benefits which are hard to quantify, like improved takeoff performance. You need less thrust from the engines and this extends the life of the engines resulting in lower maintenance costs.

This is absolutely false. Winglets have nothing to do with takeoff performance. Winglets save fuel costs in cruise by preventing the wing from losing lift when higher pressure air under the wing curls around the wingtip to the top of the wing (lower pressure air). This action creates wingtip vortices, which create a certain amount of drag. Basically, winglets save a little lift and prevent a little drag.
Takeoff performance is all about thrust versus weight, it has nothing to do with lift. Once you are in the air, I suppose it could be argued that winglets improve climb performance a tiny bit, but not enough to make much of a difference.

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 10):
Winglets aren't a slam dunk concept. It is interesting to note the longest range airliner, the B777, does not have winglets at all.

I agree. The 777 has the most advanced and 'perfect' wing so far. I'm sure this means that it loses less air around the wingtip, but you'd think that winglets would ahve been mentioned at some point.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:48 pm

Quoting Charliejag1 (Reply 7):

I don't see why we wouldn't put winglets on the ETOPS west 757s. Of the 13 west 757s, 9 of them are ETOPS certified and fly to Hawaii. We also fly them to big markets like DFW, JFK, ORD, etc, but those are mostly non-ETOPS.

I think the assumption that only the East 757s will be wingletted is because the West 757s are much older old and the original post alluded to the fact that they wanted to be able to keep wingletted planes for 10 or more years to justify the capital expenditure.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
Aviator27
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:52 pm

Quoting Charliejag1

This is absolutely false. Winglets have nothing to do with takeoff performance. Winglets save fuel costs in cruise by preventing the wing from losing lift when higher pressure air under the wing curls around the wingtip to the top of the wing (lower pressure air). This action creates wingtip vortices, which create a certain amount of drag. Basically, winglets save a little lift and prevent a little drag.

Takeoff performance is all about thrust versus weight, it has nothing to do with lift. Once you are in the air, I suppose it could be argued that winglets improve climb performance a tiny bit, but not enough to make much of a difference.


I am sorry to say but you are 100% absolutely incorrect about this. Winglets reduce drag during all phases of flight not just cruise.

B737 Advanced Blended Winglets

Boeing: Commercial Airplanes - 737 - Winglets

Feel free to educate yourself on the benefits on blended winglets from the above website. Regards.

[Edited 2006-08-27 10:54:35]
 
gilesdavies
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:16 pm

I think there is a good excuse to put the winglets on all the 757's in both the US and HP fleets.

US use their 757's on some quite long routes from their PHL base, like LAS, MIA, FLL, LIS, GLA and DUB.

Then you have the HP aircraft flying to the likes of HNL.
 
panam330
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:56 pm

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 10):
It is interesting to note the longest range airliner, the B777, does not have winglets at all.

But the 773ER and the 772LR do have raked wingtips.

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 17):
MIA

AFAIK, US no longer flies 757s into MIA.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:03 pm

I have seen these new a/c ( ex ATA), and can tell you that the winglets will be going on and can tell you that they will look spectacular. In my opinion 5 other a/c should be ETOPS certified from the US east fleet. That would make 8 a/c instead of 3 availible to Euro runs.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
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flylku
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:28 pm

This is off topic a bit but we are flying PHL to LIS at the end of this week on US Airways. I was told that the 757s they use on this route are leased from ATA for the summer season and so have a different seating layout.

Can anyone confirm?
...are we there yet?
 
m180up
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:32 pm

Quoting FlyLKU (Reply 20):
This is off topic a bit but we are flying PHL to LIS at the end of this week on US Airways. I was told that the 757s they use on this route are leased from ATA for the summer season and so have a different seating layout.

Can anyone confirm?

The 757 were bought from ATA, and have different seating layout, only coach and the first 2 rows have domestic first class, you can pay an upgrade at the gate and have a little more perks.
Werner from SAL
 
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United_fan
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:48 am

Any idea when 757 winglets will be approved for P&W 75's . UA could use these on PS transcons and Hawaii flights.
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
flydreamliner
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 22):
Any idea when 757 winglets will be approved for P&W 75's . UA could use these on PS transcons and Hawaii flights.

NW is going to start ETOPS flights with wingletted PW2000 powered 757s from DTW to a few different european destinations in spring, so likely soon.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
HPRamper
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 17):
US use their 757's on some quite long routes from their PHL base, like LAS, MIA, FLL, LIS, GLA and DUB.

PHL-Florida isn't really that long a route.
 
bobnwa
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 23):
is going to start ETOPS flights with wingletted PW2000 powered 757s from DTW to a few different european destinations in spring, so likely soon.

NWA has never officially announced this, although it probably is true.
 
avconsultant
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:08 am

I've not read otherwise, considering this is an Airbus operator I guess this shows they're committed to the 757.
 
ouboy79
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 17):
I think there is a good excuse to put the winglets on all the 757's in both the US and HP fleets.

US use their 757's on some quite long routes from their PHL base, like LAS, MIA, FLL, LIS, GLA and DUB.

Then you have the HP aircraft flying to the likes of HNL.

Except for the fact that the ex-HP 757s are junk and will probably be gone long before the US East birds. I've heard several comments about how pathetic they are and how unreliable they are turning out to be.
 
N62NA
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:38 am

Aren't some of the US East 757's the original Eastern Airlines examples which were among the first built?
 
Charliejag1
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 14):
I think the assumption that only the East 757s will be wingletted is because the West 757s are much older old and the original post alluded to the fact that they wanted to be able to keep wingletted planes for 10 or more years to justify the capital expenditure.

Good point, the west planes are ancient.

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 15):
I am sorry to say but you are 100% absolutely incorrect about this. Winglets reduce drag during all phases of flight not just cruise.

I'm standing by my statement. If you read my post, I referred to takeoff performance (first stage, on the ground). If you read the first link, which is more detailed, it does not mention takeoff performance at all. The second link does, however it is referring to obstacle clearance. In my post, I agreed that clmib performance could improve (and apparently it does, according to your link).

I stand by my statement. Winglets do not shorten the takeoff roll. Before the plane reaches Vr and rotates, the wings are not producing lift and therefore the winglets do nothing. Once the airplane rotates, the winglets help because the wings are producing lift. Nothing about the shape of the wing (or winglet), can help the engines push the plane down the runway. In fact, if anything, a nitpicker (not me or anybody here), could argue that the winglets provide form drag during takeoff.
 
captaink
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:48 am

Among the points mentioned here are, "improve takeoff performance and obstacle clearance, listed as two separate factors. Could it be that because of the better airflow, Vr is reached sooner?

In any event, winglets seem to provide a lot more than fuel savings. From the list of benefits of Boeing's website, we see increase payload, increased range (slightly) etc etc..
There is something special about planes....
 
DeltaRules
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 28):
Aren't some of the US East 757's the original Eastern Airlines examples which were among the first built?

Ten of them are, N600-N609AU. In fact, N600AU was the third 757 off the line. A few of HP's 757s were also early models from Eastern.

DeltaRules
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Aviator27
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:16 am

Takeoff performance isn't limited to takeoff roll distance. In transport category airplanes, accelerate stop distance, accelerate go distance, and single engine obstacle clearance profiles are taken into consideration. Some runways are climb performance limited due to obstacles. The winglets allow an operator to takeoff at greater weights (or use less power) on such runways. Anytime you're using less power on de-rated engines, it increases engine life cycle. No one is knit picking here. Just giving you the facts that Boeing and a lot of other people are saying.

On another note, the B767-400 also carries raked wingtips. I believe they were the first Boeing models to sport that technology. They are not quite the same as winglets but the end results seem to be the same, the reduction of wing-tip vortices and the induced drag caused by it.
 
Charliejag1
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 31):
Ten of them are, N600-N609AU. In fact, N600AU was the third 757 off the line. A few of HP's 757s were also early models from Eastern.

You're right. I know at least N902AW is a former Eastern frame, originally delivered to Eastern in 1985.

Aviator27, I understand and agree with your point. Wouldn't you agree that the winglets don't help with the pre-Vr portion of the takeoff? I think we are arguing the same point from different angles. Either way, I think raked wingtips are much more attractive, but that might be partly because they are newer and less common. The 787 and 747-8i come to mind.

[Edited 2006-08-27 20:23:31]
 
HPRamper
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 27):
Except for the fact that the ex-HP 757s are junk and will probably be gone long before the US East birds.

You're forgetting that ten of US Airways' 34 or so 757s are, in fact, older than any 757 in the HP fleet. Sure, the ex-Eastern birds are old, but the airline can ill afford to get rid of an aircraft that there is no real replacement for.
 
ouboy79
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 34):
You're forgetting that ten of US Airways' 34 or so 757s are, in fact, older than any 757 in the HP fleet. Sure, the ex-Eastern birds are old, but the airline can ill afford to get rid of an aircraft that there is no real replacement for.

Nope, I remember where the original ones came from.  Smile Junk does not equal old.
 
georgiaame
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:32 am

Could there be any justification to adding a "winglet" or raked tip to the horizontal stabilizers?
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
Charliejag1
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 36):
Could there be any justification to adding a "winglet" or raked tip to the horizontalrnstabilizers?

Well, its a similar situation except on a much smaller scale. The Beech 1900 has vertical appendices on the horizontal stabs. Most of the time, the horizontal stabilizer produces lift, pushing the tail down. This is opposite of the wing, where the lift raises the wing. This is why, if you look at the 1900, the 'winglets' on the tail extend down instead of up. It is the opposite of the main wing.

It would have the same effect, but its still a matter of economics.

[Edited 2006-08-27 21:46:53]
 
MCOflyer
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:40 am

How many of the US east will be retrofitted? I presume more than 3.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 24):
PHL-Florida isn't really that long a route.

2.2hrs on a 757 which equals to 1013 miles according to GCM.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
HPRamper
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:11 am

Nope, not long at all for a 757  Smile
 
gilesdavies
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:21 am

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 27):

Except for the fact that the ex-HP 757s are junk and will probably be gone long before the US East birds. I've heard several comments about how pathetic they are and how unreliable they are turning out to be.

Granted, it is probably not worth adding winglets to the older birds as they will probably be gone within the next few years and takes several years to get the cost back for adding the Winglets.

However the age of the aircrafts should have nothing to do with the reliability of the aircrafts... A good example of this is Monarch Airlines here in the UK which operates 7 757's and these were some of the first delivered back in 1983. These aircrafts are very heavily utilised on routes between the UK and Mediteranean holiday destinations, flying upto 18 days a day.
 
DTWAGENT
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:11 am

If you ask me using the B757 for transatlantic flights is a bit to much. I just got back from GLA and SNN on US B757 and fully books their is no room to move. And only having 5 restrooms on that plane is not enough for that plane. Bring back the B767 or larger aircraft for these long flights. '

Chuck
 
ouboy79
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RE: US To Add Winglets To 757s

Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:53 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 41):
However the age of the aircrafts should have nothing to do with the reliability of the aircrafts

Exactly my point. Let's look at the the the old HP birds and their reliability on the Hawaii runs. Especially when they have to turn back because their radios go out, flaps dont work, doors won't shut, or they just break down.