ord
Posts: 1355
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Tue Jun 27, 2000 10:47 pm

An American Airlines employee infiltrated the computer system of Legend via Sabre, gaining access to the most sensitive scheduling and pricing data of its local competitor. The AA employee who did the computer hacking just happened to guess the password of a friend who works at Sabre, thereby gaining access to the confidential data.

While the records show this employee looked at highly confidential Legend data for a period of one week, American claims she was only on for one minute, and that the week-long on-line session was because she didn't log off properly.

Was this intentional or not? You be the judge.
 
ord
Posts: 1355
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Tue Jun 27, 2000 10:53 pm

One more note: apparently the AA employee looked at the Legend data and hit the keystrokes to make schedule changes. American contends this was unintentional.

The woman was caught when someone from Legend tried to go into the system. Because of the sensitive nature of the data, only one person is allowed to be logged on at one time. So, they knew something was up and traced it back to a specific computer at AA.

 
FrontierMan
Posts: 384
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 6:19 am

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 1:29 am

American is a sleezbag. Legend should sue American. First Vanguard at DFW and the DOJ. I believe that American is going way too far. Poor Legend, a start-up carrier with class (which is hard to find in start-ups) has to put up with this. Hopefully they get a big settlement from American and expand even more.
 
tupolev154b2
Posts: 1269
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2000 9:01 am

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 1:46 am

Yes, but will Legend have the money to go through anymore lawsuits after all of their legal battles?
 
Guest

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 1:55 am

This incident, which right now has NOT been published in any major media, was most likely an accident. If American wants to find out how much Legend is charging for tickets, they can call their res office or go on the internet, or just ask anyone who has flown them! AA does not need to go through SABRE to find out the price of a legend airlines ticket. IN all likelihood, this was an accident if an AAer did log into Legens res system.

I do not think that American is being a "sleezbag" as frontier said above, they are simply doing what any other carrier in the industry would do -- holding onto their market share. Trust me, this is not something that AA would do just for the kicks - they are doing it to keep their passengers (especially their AAdvantage pax) and hold onto their position in the Dallas/Fort Worth market.

I say keep going AA -- Legend needs competition anyway! It wouldn't be fair to just have ONE long-haul carrier at Love, now would it? No, of course not! AA is just what legend needs to keep them pushing to make themselves better. Besides, AA is still fighting it out with the City of Dallas on whether or not they will be able to use those East Concourse gates that they have built.

 
ord
Posts: 1355
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 3:26 am

Last time I checked, the Wall Street Journal was a major newspaper. Check today's edition, page B1.

You state that American wouldn't do this just for kicks, but to keep market share. Well, that doesn't make it any better...if it was intentional, then what they did was wrong!

Whatever the real reason is behind this, American's shaky reputation, especially in its dealings with Legend, will naturally draw attention to incidents such as these.

Also yesterday, American got another blow with regard to their Love service. They've been pressing to use their new gates, saying there's no other space available. But when Legend offered to let them use the Executive Terminal, their excuse was no longer valid. So, they'll still be sharing gates with Continental Express.

I agree there should be competition, but keep it fair.
 
Guest

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 3:31 am

Sorry about that, I didn't see the Wall Stree Journal - I'll check it out. I noticed that AA/AMR has not put out any press releases about the incident yet... I'll keep watching for it.

I do sincerelely hope that this incident was an accident. Yes, American is being pursued by the DOJ for predatory pricing practicies at DFW with Vanguard and other small carriers. If this was intentional, I hope that there will be some type of punishment for the party involved.

More later,

Jeff
Dallas, Texas
 
Guest

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 4:06 am

Could someone please explan why AA is acting like Microsoft, hacking its compeititors mainframes and screwing with them, and the DOJ hasn't noticed?
AA's making me sick. I hope that Legend goes directly to the DOJ on this one, and I hope that the DOJ hits AA with a gigantic fine, and tons of damages to Legend.
AA's had a stranglehold on the DFW market for years. It's time for them to stop bullying startups and smaller carriers, and its time for the DOJ to step in and (if they can legally do this) force AA to abandon its DFW hub, or at least hit them with such a major fine that any thought of AA buying NW is put out to pasture.
How does Microsoft find itself broken up for predatory practices, and AA finds itself unscathed for engaging in the airline equivalent of monopolizing?
It's time for the madness to end. The DOJ needs to step in once and for all, block the UA/US and AA/NW mergers, and force AA to either loosen its strangle grip on DFW or be fined heavily (to the tune of several billion)/broken up for monopolizing.
I, for one, will avoid flying on AA at all costs. I refuse to support an airline which goes off on a rampage and literally kills every other business trying to make ends' meat.
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 4:51 am

I hope that the Justice Department steps in and sort out the mess at AA. AA is a big enough monoploy at DFW where the price to fly on AA at DFW is at an all time high for friends and relative I have living in Dallas because AA will stop at nothing to drive the underdog out of business with really low fare and the other airline goes out of business and once that is done fares shoot skyward and are higher than before. I hope Legend will beat AA at their own game. Shame on you AA!!! This reminds me of the dirty tricks campaigne that BA had to try and put Virginout of business.
"FUIMUS"
 
Guest

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 5:06 am

AA is only trying to compete and defend it'self, yeah i think AA should be fined a couple of million but when you have a lot of power like AA does,you can do that stuff, think of this, what if another carrier started up at ORD, UA would do the same,same with AW at phoenix,DL at ATL, you catch my drift?? so if you have a grudge against AA,thats your problem, but if you live in dublin and is a member of aer lingus' frequent flyer program and has several miles with them, and Aer Lingus were to do what AA did, I am sure you would defend aer lingus. what i am trying to say is that would you defend your home airline?? plus dallas is a hard market to start up and compete in so think about that, i am going with AA and i think that it was all an accident
blink182
 
ord
Posts: 1355
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: AA757_DFW

Wed Jun 28, 2000 6:33 am

Just wanted to make sure my last reply to you wasn't taken in a negative way. I figured you already knew about the WSJ article.
 
ord
Posts: 1355
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

AA's Press Release

Wed Jun 28, 2000 6:40 am

Here is AA's press release on the matter...


American Welcomes Legend's Inquiry Into Computer Incident



FORT WORTH, Texas, June 27 /PRNewswire/ -- American Airlines said it
regrets the actions of an employee who gained unauthorized access to a
proprietary area of Legend Airlines' computer system earlier this year, and
said it will willingly and voluntarily make the employee and her supervisors
available for questioning.
"We explained what happened in detail in a letter to Legend on May 5 and
asked them to let us know if they had further questions," said Mike Gunn, AA's
executive vice president - marketing and planning. "The next thing we heard
was that they were filing a court petition, which certainly wasn't necessary.
"There's nothing here to hide and we look forward to Legend satisfying
itself that this was an innocent and isolated incident," Gunn said.
He said American has taken a number of steps to ensure that future
situations do not occur. The company asked Sabre to have all its employees
change their passcodes and reminded AA employees not to use another person's
passcodes or to allow theirs to be used. In addition, the company stressed
the strict confidentiality of information that belongs to others.
"We sincerely regret this incident, and think it is important for everyone
to understand that this was simply a mistake -- albeit a serious mistake -- by
a single employee. No one else in the company was involved in her actions,
and no harm was intended or done -- which we are eager for Legend to discover
for itself," Gunn said.
Current AMR Corp. (NYSE: AMR) news releases can be accessed via the
Internet. The address is http://www.amrcorp.com/corpcomm.htm.



SOURCE American Airlines
Web Site: http://www.amrcorp.com/corpcomm.htm
 
tupolev154b2
Posts: 1269
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2000 9:01 am

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 6:46 am

I wouldn't want to think that AA did something like that, so I will just stick with the possibility that it was an accident. However, since it was Legend's computers that an AA woman managed to get into, then maybe it wasn't so much of an accident that had occurred. I agree that AA is simply competing and it is doing what any other business is doing by protecting its own market share. However, if it were to do so, it should do so fairly and without predatory and even illegal practices, for example gaining unauthorized access to Legend's computers.
 
tupolev154b2
Posts: 1269
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2000 9:01 am

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 7:30 am

Here is the link to the news story about this issue from AMRCorp's website (www.amrcorp.com):

http://www.amrcorp.com/news/jun2700.htm
 
Guest

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 8:37 am

It is amazing that we can condem an entire Airline, for one employees' actions. Get real people. !
 
scxmechanic
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 1999 10:20 am

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 10:50 am

I guess this is the sole reason AA and Sabre have had problems getting other airlines to use the Sabre system.

Sabre was to be a turn-key I.T. operation for airlines around the world. Meaning that Sabre and its parent, AMR Corp have developed Revenue/Yield, Traffic Management, Reservation and Accounting programs as well as other programs an airline would need.

They would pay Sabre for the use of the system and the airline would use it. But a lot of airlines feared that Sabre, being developed by AA/AMR, would have holes in the system to allow them to snoop around and check on what the competition was doing.

So I guess these fears have been proven.

What a shame... For all you who think this was an accident, will wake up and find that the wool has been completely pulled over your eyes!
 
Guest

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 10:59 am

Airlines and dirty trick campains go hand in hand these days. When Compass first started here in oz both the big two - Qantas and Ansett did all sorts of nasty things to make it as difficult as possible for the new carrier to get going. Both of their favoured tricks was to get their reservation and inquiry staff to constantly call Compass's revervation lines so they were always busy!

I'm sure Impulse and Virgin will be ready for these stunts, however I guess this is the way of the world these days.

mb
 
TommyBoy
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 12:15 pm

RE: AA's Press Release

Wed Jun 28, 2000 11:47 am

Gee, if AA was serious about regreting this incident don't you think AA would've fired the employee for hacking into a competitor's data base...or at the very least suspended her for spending AA company time goofing off..sounds more like they secretly patted her on the back!
 
Seattle Ops
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 1999 7:35 am

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 11:48 am

LEGEND IS JUST A BUNCH OF WHINERS! ALTHOUGH NOT QUITE AS BAD AS FRONTIER, EH F9MAN?
 
jetOKC
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2000 1:11 pm

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 12:42 pm

Legend is not "whining", they have a legitimate case for a lawsuit. A competing airline breached their computer system containing sensitive pricing and scheduling information. It should be consider a crime because they gained access by using another's password. It could not be an accident because the the WSJ article clearly stated the employee attempted to access the system by way of guessing a friend's password. It is not like the employee just happened upon the information, it was a deliberate act. AA has fought hard to keep Legend from flying and this incident is not helping American's image.
 
jr
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:15 am

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 1:18 pm

Yeah, really, why hasn't AA done anything to that Employee. Legend does seem to have a good case here ... I hope the DoJ does not let this one go.
I've flown on 9V-SPK.
 
bacardi182
Posts: 1029
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2000 2:47 am

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Wed Jun 28, 2000 1:57 pm

oh waaa! The big kid looked at my story and i am going to cry about it! who cares! do you expect me to believe that this inncident will single handedly give someone the power to make AA not use dfw as a hub(while delta can!) and cause many other things to change? If you don't like american, don't fly with them. If there prices are to high, then fly with tower air. because i dont care. if AA gets sued for millions by frontier, will ticket prices not go up even more? can't we all just get along?

i believe that the metroplex doesnt need two airports, especially if one of them is in the top ten for being the largest airport in the world. i think the problem lies with southwest. they caused the changes at dallas, and they should pay! but that is my opinion and i could be wrong....
 
Pilot1113
Posts: 2276
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:42 pm

American's Illegal Tricks

Wed Jun 28, 2000 4:32 pm

What this person did was illegal, pure and simple. That is if you take it at face value. If I got access to my friend's AOL account, for example, and decided to order myself a nice shirt, not only have I breached numerous anti-hacking computer laws but I also have credit card fraud too.

I really don't get the sense that this was accidental. First of all, if Sabre is anything like UAL's system, you have to be an expert just to get up to that level. It's Unix and everything is in ASCAII code. Much of it is command line code. It isn't Windows 98 or Mac point and click by any streach of the imagination. It would be virtually impossible for any novice computer user to get up to that level.

Second, if Sabre is as secure as it's supposed to be and this person was supposedly in a highly secure area, there should be an idle log off time. On any system of this nature if the person is idle for a period of more than 5 minutes then it logs you off, requiring you to log back in. If, as American claims, this person didn't "log off properly" the computer should have logged off for him/her after a period of inactivity.

I really can't see how this can be an accident. Those who do don't see what I see.

- Neil Harrison
 
Continental777
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:09 am

RE: American's Illegal Tricks

Wed Jun 28, 2000 9:04 pm

I agree with Neil,

This is what I think of American's actions---- 
This is what I think of Legend's Torture---- 


American had no right WHATSOEVER to do what they did.
 
FrontierMan
Posts: 384
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 6:19 am

RE: American's Illegal Tricks

Wed Jun 28, 2000 11:10 pm

SeattleOps, you know nothing about Aviation whatsoever obviously or you would be able to grasp the very simple concept that is being displayed here. Let's review from the last post okay? American slashes their fares far below Legends, and make their F100 all first class, then American hacks into their computer system and changes schedules and looks up other items of interest. Legend loses money by not being on time, due to mysterious schedule changes, and can't compete with American very well, so they go out of business forever. American then raises fares sky-high in first class as well as coach to punish the consumer. I'd like to see the look on your face when you're stuck with a 800 dollar first class fare from Dulles to Love. I think they should call that airport "hate", because that's the emotion that's being displayed all the time. Seattle Ops, I'm going to quiz you later over what you have learned from this little economics lesson.
 
Continental777
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:09 am

FrontierMan

Wed Jun 28, 2000 11:28 pm

I couldn't have said it better myself Frontier Man, I am a very big fan of Legend and you stretched your point to where anyone who cannot understand does not belong in this forum. If American is going to put an airline out of business, DO IT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But still, what American did was W R O N G!!
 =Americans Plans
 = what I think of Americans Plans
  = what I think of Legend Airlines
 =what I think of Legend's suffering


and not to change subjects or anything but

          = What I think of SWA.
 
Seattle Ops
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 1999 7:35 am

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Thu Jun 29, 2000 12:20 am

$800 bucks from IAD-DFW, no thanks, I think I'll use one of my passes and non-rev. Hey. did you like my poem on a previous topic?  
 
deltaagent
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 1999 6:06 am

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Thu Jun 29, 2000 12:37 am

I hope AA doesn't do to Legend what they did to Braniff. A friend of mine worked for Braniff as a res agent. She said AA/AMR contracted to do some of their reservations. They started calling passengers telling them that their flights were cancelled, when they were not, and rebooking them on AA flights. Yes, I know this is not the only reason Braniff is not here, but it didn't help them either.

She still has a strong hatred for AA to this day. When the rumor of AA and DL talking about a merger, she along with a lot of other people were talking about leaving. They want nothing to do with AA.

Delta Agent
 
Fleet Service
Posts: 473
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2000 11:58 am

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Thu Jun 29, 2000 12:37 am

  =What I think of your Legend fetish
  =What I think of you SWA fetish
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
Guest

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Thu Jun 29, 2000 2:04 am

This happens with every airline in the business, be it ethical or not. AA just happens to be stupid enough to get caught everytime they do something like this. AA will not be put out of business, they will pay a fine and damages after settling out of court.

Carty should go, in my opinion, he has created disaster after disaster since he became CEO. He is Crandall only stupider. Get Arpey in there and shake things up.

All of these fiascos are directly attributable to bad management and poor P.R.
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Thu Jun 29, 2000 2:44 am

I don't think ONLY AA "competes" in this unethical, illegal way. As Texairport said, they are the ones stupid enough to get caught.

I find it *HIGHLY* unlikely that this AA employee decided ON HER OWN to hack into the Legend reservation system. What good would it have done her personally? Of course her AA supervisors knew about it, and probably even encouraged it.

I still don't see how looking up Legend's fares through the reservation system could hurt it. Anyone can look up fares of any airline through the consumer-based links to Sabre such as Travelocity. You can even see how many people are booked on their flights through the Seat Mapper software.

This "espionage" makes no sense to me, but it is still illegal. I am a Gold Aadvantage member on AA, and it is disappointing to find that AA is still pulling these stunts. My guess is that it is an industry-wide problem though, not simply an AA one. (Remember predatory practices at any of the other airlines?)
 
BA744
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2000 8:34 am

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Thu Jun 29, 2000 2:52 am

AA developed SABRE
LH developed Amadeus
BA developed BABS
etc

Then everyone else said, we're not going to develop our own systems, we'll piggyback off of these other airlines - our competitors, and we will get them to do our system maintenance.

It stinks, but what did legend expect. Its happened before - famously BA/Virgin - it will happen again.
 
Guest

RE: FrontierBOY

Thu Jun 29, 2000 5:16 am

FrontierBoy, it doesn't seem to me that you know too much about airline economics yourself or the free market system employed by the United States.

Love is the best airport in the Dallas area to fly out of thanks to WN and the more airlines competing the better. Have you ever been there?

Also, AA was not changing the schedule times of Legend. This happened in March and Legend hadn't even started flying yet so they can't change schedules and cause the planes to be late, that's reality, there is not that much of a conspiracy there.

I wouldn't want you to run my business because you will get run over and flattened like a pancake in the real world.
 
Pilot1113
Posts: 2276
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:42 pm

Creep

Thu Jun 29, 2000 5:59 am

Remember CREEP (Committee to ReElect the President)? Sounds like American is borrowing some tactics here...

I believe this tactics shouldn't go unpunished. I'm all for American dropping their fares and upgrading their airplanes because that's competition. A good airline forces the bad one to become better, which is what a free market economy should be.

What do you expect the encumbant should do?? Keep things as they are and allow their passengers to be taken away?

I don't agree with what AA has done and I spite them for it. This is no way to compete. Their tactics were illegal to the nth degree!

Please don't get the picture that I'm voting for AA to win this; I'm not. I want Legend to win this fight. I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

- Neil Harrison
 
FrontierMan
Posts: 384
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 6:19 am

Jomama, You Need To Go Back To The 'hood.

Thu Jun 29, 2000 7:39 am

Look, I do understand the system. I understand what predatory practices are. You obviously don't. When American prices their product below cost, they compete unfairly. American has more resources than Legend, so they can fly the route and lose money without going out of business. They win in the long run, because when Legend goes out of business, they raise fares higher than they were before. I have never been to love field. It's an airport that I believe the DOJ is starting to hate. I have no problem with American matching the fare, because if you can't match the fare you might as well leave the market. Don't tell me she didn't change anything when she went into the system. All Legend has to do is trace the keystrokes to see what she did. American claims she didn't do anything. I'll believe that when I see the court's decision on the actions. I think American put her up to this, otherwise she would be fired. I honestly don't think there's anyone here who can tell me exactly what she looked at. Legend hasn't realeased that information yet. Jomamma, you've been a member for 6 days, maybe you shouldn't fire off at people when you are obviously inexperienced with this forum. Could you tell me what business you do have in the Aviation industry?
 
Guest

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Thu Jun 29, 2000 8:11 am

FrontierBOY, you obviously don't understand anything.

1. How is AA fighting Legend below cost? Because they are a trunk airline and they reconfigured 4 planes to 56 seats from their fleet of 700+ to compete against a carrier that this tactic is the basis of their business strategy?

2. Undercut Legend's pricing? A walkup fare for DAL-LAX on AA on July 1 is (RT) $909 advance purchase and $957 no advance purchase according to aa.com. Legend is $382.50 according to legend.com. Where is the undercut?

3. Why would the DOJ hate Love Field? This is the first case the DOJ has had to deal with DAL in a long, long, long time. Just because DAL has been involved in court cases does not mean that the DOJ has been involved.

4. I am not saying that AA didn't put this girl up to getting into Legend's database, however, she was there for 61 seconds, how many drastic changes could she have made in 61 seconds to SCHEDULING? Legend did not even discover the breach until the next week. The only info she look at was scheduling info according to Legend.

http://dallasnews.com/business/103100_LEGEND28.html

5. I work for in finance for a bank, not involved in the airline industry, what do you do in the industry between the ages of 5-15, FrontierBOY, collect safety cards for a major international carrier?

6. Simply because I have been a registered forum member for 6 days does not mean that I have not been reading your ridiculous posts for the past 8 months.

Finally, to get one thing straight, I think what AA did was stupid and wrong, but I am not going to jump to conclusions simply because it is the popular thing to do. FrontierBOY, I suggest you evaluate all of the details before commenting on them, otherwise you look like an ass.

 
Seattle Ops
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 1999 7:35 am

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Thu Jun 29, 2000 8:28 am

YOU TELL HIM, JOMAMMA!
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Thu Jun 29, 2000 8:55 am

Jomama -You might be too young to remember an airline called Braniff. AA used oddly familar tactics to help seal their fate - things such as booking non existant reservations on Braniff flights so that they would show full, notifying Braniff that they needed to "accomodate" passengers on their DFW-HNL flight because of a "mechanical" at AA. Braniff spends the money to provision the flight accordingly, and lo and behold, AA fixed the plane and they didn't need those seats after all.

AA was brought up on charges for predatory practices before for their actions regarding Western Pacific and Vanguard.

AA's former CEO was punished for trying to get Braniff's CEO to raise fares. That's a no-no.

So, those things are past history. This latest escapade is just par for the course for AA. Of course, working in the finance department of a bank, you must take that "past performance is no indication of future returns" bit to heart.

BTW, it's especially nasty if AA did all this before Legend started flying...Think about it - they find out up front what Legend's revenue management plan is and price accordingly.
 
FrontierMan
Posts: 384
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 6:19 am

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:38 am

Seattle Ops I really enjoyed your poem. I thought it was well thought out, and it flowed very, very well. My Compliments.
1. I never said AA was pricing below cost. I said that if AA prices their product below cost, they are competing unfairly. That is what AA did to WestPac, and Vanguard. They priced their product below cost. After all, in banking don't you look at a person's record before you give them a loan?
2. American claims she was there for 60 seconds. She can say she that's all the time she was on for, but isn't it funny they left it on. All of her excuses are just too convenient. Let's face it, if you're looking at something very interesting you're not going to leave right away.
3. I think you need to go to more aviation websites, because you obviously don't know anything about Love Field. Legend went through all sorts of battles just to start up at Love. Then the DOJ had to hear people like CO and other airlines who wanted to start flights as well. There were gate disputes from American. This is not the first case about Love. Also I believe the city of Ft. Worth is in some sort of legal battle over Love right now, but I could be wrong.

Jomama wrote:
-------------------------------
FrontierBOY, you obviously don't understand anything.

1. How is AA fighting Legend below cost? Because they are a trunk airline and they reconfigured 4 planes to 56 seats from their fleet of 700+ to compete against a carrier that this tactic is the basis of their business strategy?

2. Undercut Legend's pricing? A walkup fare for DAL-LAX on AA on July 1 is (RT) $909 advance purchase and $957 no advance purchase according to aa.com. Legend is $382.50 according to legend.com. Where is the undercut?

3. Why would the DOJ hate Love Field? This is the first case the DOJ has had to deal with DAL in a long, long, long time. Just because DAL has been involved in court cases does not mean that the DOJ has been involved.

4. I am not saying that AA didn't put this girl up to getting into Legend's database, however, she was there for 61 seconds, how many drastic changes could she have made in 61 seconds to SCHEDULING? Legend did not even discover the breach until the next week. The only info she look at was scheduling info according to Legend.

http://dallasnews.com/business/103100_LEGEND28.html

5. I work for in finance for a bank, not involved in the airline industry, what do you do in the industry between the ages of 5-15, FrontierBOY, collect safety cards for a major international carrier?

6. Simply because I have been a registered forum member for 6 days does not mean that I have not been reading your ridiculous posts for the past 8 months.

Finally, to get one thing straight, I think what AA did was stupid and wrong, but I am not going to jump to conclusions simply because it is the popular thing to do. FrontierBOY, I suggest you evaluate all of the details before commenting on them, otherwise you look like an ass.

 
Guest

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:10 pm

FrontierBOY, a little lesson, just because something goes to court does not mean that the DOJ is involved. The DOJ (Department of Justice) are the federal government's lawyers. They have been more involved with Elian Gonzalez than DAL. The court cases involved with DAL have been Ft. Worth vs. Dallas, Ft. Worth v. Legend, Ft. Worth v. American, Continental v. Dallas & Ft. Worth, DFW v. Continental and Continental Express, DFW v. American. Besides, the gate disputes with AA at Love are an issue with AA and the City of Dallas, owners of DAL. Just because a Federal judge may hear the case in Federal Court does not mean the DOJ is involved.

You are really arrongant and misinformed and if you are going to debate an issue, please make sure you know what you are talking about otherwise you look like an ass.
 
Continental777
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:09 am

Aunt Jomama

Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:56 pm

Hey Aunt Jomama, FrontierMAN has a point, you have been here for 6 days so we would ALLLLLL like to hear what you know, (which is probably nothing)  Plus, I read the post where you said that FrontierMAN would be flattened like a Pancake, What is it with you and Pancakes, I stopped eating your products 5 years ago. So you go back to your Pancake Business, and stop worrying about our Business.

QUIZ----What Airline is TRS
(No Cheating, but I bet you will)
 
Guest

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Thu Jun 29, 2000 11:41 pm

I'm sorry CO777, you really humbled me. I'm really sorry that you and FrontierBOY, and your "special" safety card collecting relationship, continue to prove your ignorance on this sight. I didn't know that I was worrying about yours and FrontierBOY's special "business" I agree, what you do in private is your own business and I will stop.

As I pointed out to your playmate, I have been looking at this sight for quite some time. I'm sorry I haven't bothered to reply to your "expert" posts in the past, because obviously you and your FrontierBOY friend know everything about the airline business and history at your knowledgeable age bracket of 5-15.

Finally, I would like to get something clear and back on the topic, I think what AA did was wrong, they have had a checkered past with questionable practices but please get an understanding of the facts, you and F9BOY tend to let your emotions take over and you don't think rationally. I'm sorry the little guy, Legend, is getting picked on, but that's life, which I'm sure you will learn more about once you reach puberty.

Also, before I forget oh omnipotent one, please tell me who TRS is.

Lastly, I am really impressed by your expert use of the emoticons, did you learn how to do those in your 1st period typing class?
 
FrontierMan
Posts: 384
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 6:19 am

Re: Jemima

Fri Jun 30, 2000 3:55 am

This is from an Aviation Website. I picked it out for you, Aunt Jemima

"It seems that anytime AA management gets around something named "Reno" they screw it up.
First we had the Reno Air fiasco last year, which cost the airline a couple hundred million, with not much return. Then there was then DOJ lawsuit accusing AA of predatory behavior, filed by another, more dreadful Reno, a.k.a. Janet.
The Reno Air issue was a management screw-up. Initially, the Janet Reno problem was little more than a cheap political stunt inflicted on American by a crooked Administration looking to divert scrutiny from a host of their own illegal activities. No big deal. The suit was based on spurious accusations that a half-literate child could blow out of the legal water. While it might be an expensive exercise, American could prove fairly easily that the incidents noted in the DOJ suit were pure jive. While the lawyers for both sides played their silly games of discovery and depositions, all AA had to do was to keep its nose clean, and not make any moves that would play into Janet's hands.
If they played their cards right, American's response could have made Reno wish she was going back to Cuba with that Gonzales kid.
But Nooooo.... American management just had to let Love mess things up. Love Field, that is.
Right when it was becoming increasingly obvious that the Renosaurus was finding this lawsuit to be a potential fiasco, AA management lobs a slow pitch right over her plate. They try to zap a new entrant - Legend Airlines. Inside the park homerun for Janet.
Now, there is nothing wrong with responding to new competition, per se. But this is different. AA is in a very delicate and dangerous position right now. It should recognize that with the Clinton DOJ they are up against a very powerful adversary - one that does not play by the rules. Janet Reno cares little about facts, or the law, or - judging by her boss's behavior - adhering to the truth. So in this case, AA's strategy should have been to lay low and not do anything that would give the appearance of being a nasty bully. American could have even turned Legend's entry to its advantage. When Legend came along, they had a golden chance to appear to the be magnanimous competitor, welcoming Legend to the market, and vowing to let the consumer alone be the arbiter. AA could then use that as a prime example of why it is not a "predator." Besides, the size and scope of Legend is not a major nor immediate threat to American.
But apparently the blustering arrogance of Bob Crandall still lives at AA.
They just had to make some arrogant, aggressive move toward stopping Legend. Not only that, but they've done it in such a clumsy, transparent and heavy handed manner that may have handed Reno and the goofy fringe a cause celebre to put steam back into the DOJ suit:

* They move big-time into Love Field, an airport where up until now their service efforts had resulted in financial disaster.
* They blatantly copy the new entrant's service levels, calling it "Executive," even noting that the flights will have "premium" pillows and blankets on board. (There's a first - like a classy bordello, maybe.)
* They overlay the two strongest potential routes that Legend would likely serve, O'Hare and Los Angeles.
* And, as a special gift to Janet, in at least one instance they even undercut Legend's fares.

From the standpoint of tactical strategy, AA's actions are embarrassing. Especially so when one considers that all this is intended to stop a small airline flying 56-seat DC-9s. Think of it, a high-quality, sophisticated bazillion-dollar global airline like AA trying to hit a little DC-9 competitor across the head with a 2-by-twice. AA management just couldn't resist taking a shot at Legend right out of the box. They couldn't wait six months. The fact is that if they let Legend get up and get successful, then AA could have entered Love Field and not looked like such a predatory bully.
Chances are good that Janet Reno may start looking for Love in all the wrong places. And Don Carty just gave her the map to find it."
The Boyd Group.

If your reading skills are up to par, you can see how the DOJ has gotten involved in Love Field. You can also see that American did undercut Legend's fares. You know what, Aunt Jemima? I think the saddest thing is that you've been outsmarted by some people who know more about the indstry than you do, and also are younger than you. So who really looks like an ass now? I don't think it's CO777 or me.
 
Guest

RE: AA Up To Dirty Tricks Again -- This Time W/Legend

Fri Jun 30, 2000 4:20 am

Apparantly you can't read, F9BOY, the DOJ hasn't been involved with Legend. The article you so kindly provided from your "aviation website" does not mention that the DOJ has any lawsuits agains AA over the Legend affair. It states that given AA's past, notably the current predatory pricing with Vanguard at DFW, AA would have been wise not to do anything stupid, which they did, obviously (even to you F9BOY).

"They just had to make some arrogant, aggressive move toward stopping Legend. Not only that, but they've done it in such a clumsy, transparent and heavy handed manner that MAY have handed Reno and the goofy fringe a cause celebre to put steam back into the DOJ suit"

Your article states that the Legend fiasco MAY give fuel to the Vanguard suit, but NOWHERE does it state that the DOJ is CURRENTLY involved with the AA/Legend/Love Field scenario.

Besides, what is your fascination with undercutting fares? Southwest does it all the time and its allright, however, when an established carrier, be it AA or not, you get pissy. As a consumer (or your parents at least) should be happy about this.

Also, have you ever flown Legend? How do you know they have class Mr. Expert? Because they are all 1st class? Because they have an Executive Terminal? Does Legend have as much class as Frontier?


 
Guest

Have Your Fights On A Different Thread!

Fri Jun 30, 2000 4:33 am

You guys sound like your on Springer! If you want to fight, take it to http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/33101 All they do is fight about Oneida and what not.

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