m180up
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Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:23 am

The other thread was already too long for some users bandwith.
Post your comments and updates here.
Werner from SAL
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part I

Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:36 am

I'm listening to a pilot on CNN now who is doing a good job of laying out the facts and the issues. BUT, he seemed to be almost implying that the runway wasn't where it shouldn't have been as the cause for the accident (Bad Runway...Bad Runway!)...nothing about pilot error, as though it couldn't possibly have been that. I realize that there are a whole host of reasons for why the crew did what they did.

An interesting point he brought up was 'wheels up' time. In other words, use your slot or lose it. Could that have rushed the crew to 'get going' in a very speedy way? Still, I'm wondering if 'slots' are even an issue at dawn on a Sunday morning. It's not like a normal weekday, where flights are all over the place at dawn and you have to get hopping for flow control purposes. There's not a whole lot of 'flow control' going on at dawn on a Sunday, is there?

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Garri767
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 1):
There's not a whole lot of 'flow control' going on at dawn on a Sunday, is there?

not at LEX as far as i know, although that does bring up an interesting point or two

[Edited 2006-08-27 21:44:36]
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nkops
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 1):
An interesting point he brought up was 'wheels up' time. In other words, use your slot or lose it. Could that have rushed the crew to 'get going' in a very speedy way?

Does anyone know if there was a GDP in ATL this morning?? I would hope that the crew wouldn't rush though even with this!!
:evil:
 
atlaaron
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:46 am

What is GDP? (besides Gross Domestic Product which I do not think is the case here)  Big grin
 
nkops
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:47 am

GDP= Ground Delay Program.. or flow control it is sometimes called
:evil:
 
Dtw757
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:49 am

Although it seems so easy to say they took off on the short runway, I have to ask myself how and why two experienced pilots would blast off down an unlit runway in the dark? Seems improbable.
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OPNLguy
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part I

Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 341):
By Comair not answering ANY questions regarding the runway issue including saying what runway the aircraft took off from, is not a good sign. To me that means they know there is a problem and are facing liability issues.

It might appear that way, but he's just following proper protocol...

Once there is an accident like this, it becomes the NTSB's investigation. Comair will obviously be one of the "parties" to the investigation (along with others), and as a "party" they must defer all questions on the investigative aspect of the accident to the NTSB. If a party violates this basic tenet, they can be excluded from the investigation, and that's not something that you wants to have happen. IIRC, the someone from the controller's union made some inappropriate comments re: the investigation into the DC-9 and 727 that collided on a foggy runway at DTW some years back, and "poof" the controller's group lost their "party" status.

Comair will continue to comment, I'm sure, on items related to the victims, as they should, but they will not be commenting on possible or rumored causes of the accident, no matter how many time the media will ignore explanations of the above "Party" system, and ask "what caused the crash" questions anyways.
.

[Edited 2006-08-27 21:51:54]
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AirWillie6475
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part I

Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 6):
I have to ask myself how and why two experienced pilots would blast off down an unlit runway in the dark? Seems improbable.

Looking at airport publications, the short runway at Lex had lights. ChrisNH where did you hear that pilot on CNN, was it a video? I'm also curious to look at the plane, they say the plane was actually intact but it caught fire.

[Edited 2006-08-27 21:55:49]
 
vasanthd
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:02 am

CNN just reported the Radar archive does prove the takeoff happend in the wrong runway.
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NIKV69
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 6):
Seems improbable

Then why is everything beginning to point to that?

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 7):
Comair will continue to comment, I'm sure, on items related to the victims, as they should, but they will not be commenting on possible or rumored causes of the accident, no matter how many time the media will ignore explanations of the above "Party" system, and ask "what caused the crash" questions anyways.
.

Of course they are not going to say anything, curious to see how the F/O is handled. He holds all the answers.
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OPNLguy
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:09 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 8):
Looking at airport publications, the short runway at Lex had lights.

Yes, it did, but the MIRL on 8/26 were notam'ed out of service indefinately...

NTSB has a press briefing at 1700 eastern time...
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alaska737
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:36 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
Quoting DTW757 (Reply 6):
Seems improbable

Then why is everything beginning to point to that?

thers nothing else to point to!!! the position of the A/C in relation to the runway is the first indicator and we all know that a CRJ cant take off in that short of distance so IDK what else we can say happend. RIP to the victims
 
xjramper
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:39 am

Flow control problems happen any time during any day. This is one thing that drives me nuts as a CSR, is that the weather is beautiful and at the destination it is horrible. So when they hear they are on a GDP, they get angry because they only see the weather in front of them.

XJR
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GAIsweetGAI
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:40 am

More news- basically what was being said in part 1:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060827/..._ot/kentucky_crash_investigation_1
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jorge1812
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:42 am

Cause I can't view th other thread with my 56k Modem....what happened and how many people survived/died?

Georg
 
m180up
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:47 am

Quoting Jorge1812 (Reply 15):
Cause I can't view th other thread with my 56k Modem....what happened and how many people survived/died?

Georg

A Comair plane crashed in LEX today, early in the morning, the FO has survived, is at the hospital, 2 more crews died, and 47 passengers.
Werner from SAL
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:51 am

I foind this on flightaware.com:

In 1993, the pilot of an air carrier filed a report with the NASA ASRS (aviation safety reporting system) after nearly departing from runway 26 when instructed to depart from runway 22 at Lexington.

The report reads, "Aircraft was cleared for immediate takeoff (traffic was inside the marker) on runway 22 at KLEX. We taxied onto the runway and told tower we needed a moment to check our departure routing with our weather radar (storms were in the area, raining at the airport). We realized our heading was not currect for our assigned runway and at that moment, tower called us to cancel the takeoff clearance because we were lined up on runway 26. We taxied clear and then held short of runway 22 for landing traffic. We took off on runway 22 and proceeded without incident. Possible contributing factors were poor visibbility and weather (rain. Confusing runway intersection and tower's request for an immediate takeoff. Suggest possible warning page (similar to Houston Hobby) to clarify multiple runway ends."
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ikramerica
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:00 am

I don't understand why some people still refuse to believe that the plane took off from the wrong runway. It happened. It's not debatable.

Quoting Xjramper (Reply 13):
Flow control problems happen any time during any day. This is one thing that drives me nuts as a CSR, is that the weather is beautiful and at the destination it is horrible. So when they hear they are on a GDP, they get angry because they only see the weather in front of them.

Probably because it's not explained to them. People get angry with lack of information. I've been on airlines where the information is provided: "Due to poor weather in Atlanta, the flight is being held here in XYZ. Once we are given a clear path to Atlanta, we will be on our way." Passengers are not unreasonable, but flying is stressful and people don't like being left in the dark about their own lives.
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Dtw757
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 12):
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
Quoting DTW757 (Reply 6):
Seems improbable

Then why is everything beginning to point to that?

thers nothing else to point to!!! the position of the A/C in relation to the runway is the first indicator and we all know that a CRJ cant take off in that short of distance so IDK what else we can say happend. RIP to the victims

It has been reported that RWY 8/26 is unlit and that to me didn't make any sense of how two trained pilots could mistake that for the main runway. After looking it up myself on airnav.com it appears that 8/26 is indeed lit which makes more sense.
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planespotting
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part I

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:04 am

Alrite, I want to preface my post by saying this:

what I'm about to say is not in anyway a condemnation or accusation of the crew in this crash, and it has definitely not been confirmed by anyone and is just speculation on my part. I also realize that despite my Commercial Pilots License with MEL/SEL/IR additions, I am still NOT a qualified CRJ-200 pilot. Furthermore, the Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 that I used to simulate flight conditions is definitely not the see all and end all of this investigation, and there are many limitations associated with using such a device to re-create an accident such as this one.

That being said, here goes.

Earlier, I re-created the known conditions of this accident (airport, time, runways) and speculated on the fairly unknown but probable conditions (aircraft weight/load out, temp/weather/dewpoint/wind) using an open source free-ware CRJ-200 aircraft downloaded at flightsim.com some time ago. As i stated above, I am not a CRJ certified/qualified pilot and am engaging in purely monday-morning quarterbacking activities. Also, this aircraft seems to be fairly accurate in terms of demonstrating the capabilites of the CRJ, but who really knows right? mainly, I did this to simulate actual conditions for the taxi to the runway.

I started from the gate, and taxied to the runway. They most likely received their departure clearance from the gate, and would have inputed the numbers -- ass. altitude and heading, vertical speed, v-speeds, etc... -- at the gate.

From the position of the gates at the field, to taxi to rwy 22 (assigned runway) they would have to taxi directly across the end of rwy 26 (shorter runway). If the pilots forgot to turn on the flight director, or perhaps forgot to press the activator switch for the heading function of the flight director, it is possible that they would not have been made aware directly by the flight director if they confused rwy 26 with rwy 22 -- most aircraft are assigned to fly runway heading immediately after take-off when getting an IFR clearance -- they would have inputed the assigned runway heading (220) at some point before the take off, either at the gate or on the taxi.

At the time of their take-off (6:06am), it was dark out. Perhaps a bit lighter out than it would have been at midnight, but much darker than civil twilight. The flight crew would have seen runway lights on their runway, and an intersecting runway that also had lights, coming from the same direction it would have been had they been on the correct runway. The trees at the end of the runway would not be visible at this time due to the darkness, and the fact that the runway was shorter would not be visible from the runway lights due to the fact that darkness would have just made the lights most likely stand out against the inifiniti of the darkness.

I have heard speculation or heresay about there being some kind of blind-spot or spotting difficulty from the control tower to the beginning of 26, especially in the darkness of early morning.

Can anyone else see the Human Factors "hoops" lining up? Night-time...crew with short rest...shorter runway comes before the assigned runway...perhaps a hard-off time...factors which all by themselves or even stacked together nothing really to worry about. But, one small slip up by the crew or atc, or perhaps some ultra-small aircraft problem (perhaps a small light in the cockpit went out or something crazy like that)...and the events come together in a dramatic fashion such as this.

And for a small FYI, i obviously tried the take-off on the flight-sim as well. First go of it with take-off flaps and regular throttle movements, V1 at 131, pull up with the flight director...hit the trees at the end and dive straight in...much like the Comair 5191.

Second go of it was a short field config...hold the breaks, let the engines spool up, and lo and behold, you can make it.

Not saying that they should have done the short field take-off...they were most likely very unaware of their blunder onto the wrong runway, and under normal circumstances there would be no need for high-per. take-off.

Anyway, that's my two cents, and nothing concrete. Just some speculation and educated guessing.

Don't flame please.

[Edited 2006-08-27 23:09:04]
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md80fanatic
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 18):
I don't understand why some people still refuse to believe that the plane took off from the wrong runway. It happened. It's not debatable.

I believe they did take off from RWY26, the question is "how" could both crew members have made that mistake simultaneously. According to OPNLguy, the lights were off indefinitely as of yesterday. I am also wondering how an experienced crew (seeing RWY22's threshold and runways lights ahead of them) could possibly turn into the darkness to line up on RWY26, much less firewall the throttles for a takeoff run. It just doesn't make any sense at this point.
 
prosa
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:09 am

It seems from the early reports that at least some of the passengers might have survived the impact but were unable to evacuate the aircraft before it was engulfed in flames. I ask this question as someone who's never been on a regional jet ... do the cramped cabins on RJ's make them more difficult to evacuate than mainline aircraft?
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flyf15
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 6):
Although it seems so easy to say they took off on the short runway, I have to ask myself how and why two experienced pilots would blast off down an unlit runway in the dark? Seems improbable.

There was airport construction where the taxiways did not match the charts apparently. Also, looks like they were on a continuous duty overnight... its a tricky way of getting around rest requirements. They put you on duty all night long and move your "rest" period during the middle of the day. Therefore, they can make your rest as short as they like at night... To make a long story short, your pilots up front on an early morning departure may have only gotten 3 hours of sleep that night. It sounds like they got in after midnight and left at 6am, 5 hours on the ground, including time getting ready for the flight, on the hotel van, etc.

So, a confusing situation plus a retardedly tired crew, and its easy to see how it could've happend.

You'd be scared if you knew how little sleep your crew up front may have gotten, day after day after day. Sometimes whats legal isn't whats safe.
 
Dtw757
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:13 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 21):
According to OPNLguy, the lights were off indefinitely as of yesterday.

Do we know with any certainty that these lights were on or off?
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Boston92
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:13 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 21):
I believe they did take off from RWY26, the question is "how" could both crew members have made that mistake

I tend to believe the THEORY that the craft did takeoff from the wrong rnwy. Rnwy 22 had just been repaved and the numbers might not have been visible that early. Also the rnwy lights were not on for 26, but the taxiway lights were. Still, no question, we have to wait until the black box has been heard and stop Jumping to these conclusions, that none of us know are right.
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APFPilot1985
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:16 am

I just found out that a friend and fellow pilot was confirmed as being on the plane. Very sad to hear.
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We're Nuts
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:17 am

Is anyone else wondering why, if fire crews arrived within seconds, and the plane was mostly intact, there is but a sole survivor?
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F9Animal
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:19 am

Something from the other thread that I found interesting. Plus the last post on the other thread stated that the flight crew was on minimal rest. I have not heard this on the news, so not sure to its validity.

About 24 minutes into this video, the helicopter pilots report clearly shows me that this runway could easily be confused. If I was tired, and deep in work thought, I could easily make that mistake. Also, runway 26 markings are very dull, and I cannot believe it is not more marked. I would compare this to driving in Downtown of any city. Is it easy to take a turn on a street that is not clearly marked?

Correct me if I am wrong, but taxiway alpha crosses 26, and could be confused by one not familiar with this airport. Even with no runway lights, could this confuse the pilots into thinking they were on the farther access point for runway 22?

Anyways, this is a great watch.

http://www.whas11.com/sharedcontent/...Id=57426&live=yes&props=liveplayer
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trekster
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 26):
I just found out that a friend and fellow pilot was confirmed as being on the plane. Very sad to hear.

So sorry to hear that Sad
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F9Animal
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 24):
Do we know with any certainty that these lights were on or off?

I thought they do not have lighting on that runway, or perhaps they said it was a daylight only GA runway.
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Goldenshield
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:21 am

Quote:
APFPilot1985 (previous thread)

This is a major reason why I hate the CRJ-200. It is a poor performer as far as take off and landing distance are concerned. We get it multiple times a day at APF and there have been quite a few times when I have puckered watching it take off or land. The 700 with leading edge devices is so much nicer and performs a lot better.


That runway is too short to take off from for ANY turbine aircraft flying passengers under part 121. A 737, 757, A320, MD80, ERJ, etc., could not takeoff from that runway safely either.

As for APF, the runway length is more than adequate for the flights that operate out of it.
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Dtw757
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 30):
I thought they do not have lighting on that runway, or perhaps they said it was a daylight only GA runway.

According to airnav.com the runway is lit with sidelights.
Runway 8/26
Dimensions: 3500 x 75 ft. / 1067 x 23 m
Surface: asphalt/concrete, in poor condition
CONC IS SEVERELY CRACKED.
Weight bearing capacity: Single wheel: 12500 lbs

Runway edge lights: medium intensity
MIRL RY 08/26 OTS INDEFLY.
RUNWAY 8 RUNWAY 26
Latitude: 38-02.339143N 38-02.433593N
Longitude: 084-36.574985W 084-35.855642W
Elevation: 969.5 ft. 972.6 ft.
Gradient: 0.3 0.3
Traffic pattern: left left
Runway heading: 085 magnetic, 081 true 265 magnetic, 261 true
Markings: basic, in fair condition basic, in fair condition
Runway end identifier lights: yes
REIL OTS INDEFLY.
Touchdown point: yes, no lights yes, no lights
Obstructions: 25 ft. tree, 400 ft. from runway, 150 ft. right of centerline, 8:1 slope to clear 17 ft. pole, 552 ft. from runway, 39 ft. left of centerline, 20:1 slope to clear

[Edited 2006-08-27 23:26:28]
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APFPilot1985
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 31):
That runway is too short to take off from for ANY turbine aircraft flying passengers under part 121. A 737, 757, A320, MD80, ERJ, etc., could not takeoff from that runway safely either.

I'm not debating that, no kidding about that runway.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 31):
As for APF, the runway length is more than adequate for the flights that operate out of it.

The runway being only 5290 is still right at the minimum for an RJ. Come and watch one take off or land and you will see what I mean.
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toering
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:28 am

I see, according to Flight Explorer, a DL 757 has left LEX ( DAL9865) . Could this be an aircraft bringing Delta's CEOs, and PRES, ect... to and from the site?
 
KATL757
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:29 am

Well.... Mary Schiavo was just on CNN running her mouthpiece about the accident this morning. She should be making the rounds soon, ie FOX, MSNBC.
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KarlB737
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:29 am

The investigation team is beginning to set up lights at the crash site in preparation for a long night.

Non-stop video stream from WLEX-TV:

http://www.wlextv.com/global/video/p...ory.asp%3FS%3D4827296&rnd=84547306
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:34 am

WHAS Channel 11 just had an airport official state that no construction was in progress anywhere on airport property at the time of the crash, also he stated that the lights on RWY26 were OFF at the time (according to the NOTAM).
 
thvgjp
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:37 am

Why are the officials reluctant in releasing the tail no. of the aircraft. I have heard from the news conference they wont release tail no yet, why not? The CEO of Commair stated no of cycles, hrs on airframe in the 1st news conference. Any ideas??
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 32):
According to airnav.com the runway is lit with sidelights.

I think it's more accurate to say that LEX 08/26 is equipped with edge lighting (MIRL). Whether or not the installed MIRL was actually operational or not is another issue completely.

Under Airnav's listing for LEX 08/26, it also says "MIRL RY 08/26 OTS INDEFLY", and as this was no longer being carried as a D-NOTAM (and appears to have been moved to the Class-II printed publication) it suggests that the MIRL has been out of service for quite awhile. Can anyone say, absolutely, that the MIRL was on this morning when 5191 tookoff? I can't, and that's one of the things that will come out via the investigation, but based upon the NOTAMs, it doesn't seem likely that they were on.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10893
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 27):
Is anyone else wondering why, if fire crews arrived within seconds, and the plane was mostly intact, there is but a sole survivor?

Yea, it's called fire and explosions and smoke. No matter how fast a fire truck can get on scene if the fire is intense there is little they can do, the smoke overcomes everyone first. If a someone can't get that door open and get people moving out of the aircraft there is little chance.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
User avatar
JBo
Posts: 1613
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 32):

According to airnav.com the runway is lit with sidelights.

Yes, but did you note the NOTAM text immediately underneath?:

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 32):

Runway edge lights: medium intensity
MIRL RY 08/26 OTS INDEFLY.

Translation: Medium-Intensity Runway Lighting on Runway 08/26 out of service indeflinitely.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
DMAJ7TH
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:04 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:42 am

hello all,

i am very new to a.net, although i have been reading the threads on here for quite a long time. i finally joined today because of the lured temptation of joining the masses and responding to an accident such as this. i have spent the good part of today reading all of your posts - your reactions, opinions, speculations, comments, etc. i can tell everyone who participates in this a.net message board are true fans of aviation and most likely eat, sleep and breathe airplanes - licensed or not. i know what it is like. after years of being a professional pilot, i still look at flying in a type of childhood wonderment. its a beautiful thing. the day i lose that childhood love of aviation is the day i will quit and find something else to do. i never thought i would join a message board type community (at least in aviation), but here i am! (by the way, the 15.00 it cost me to join is about 6 hours and 36 minutes worth of per-diem!)

on to my point. i have seen today speculation after speculation made, followed by criticism of those speculations. harsh criticism. most of the speculation has been made by younger folks (13-25 year range) - most of them bringing up some very valid questions and formulating some good thoughts of what might have happened. my question is- what is the problem with speculating?? this is a hobbyists website!! speculation is something that runs rampid on message boards sites such as these. i say, keep speculating - its why we all joined a.net in the first place. what is the harm that its doing? fox news or msnbc would never present the info generated from blogs such as these to present to the mass public anyway. that having been said, i would NEVER speculate about an accident outside of this site. i would never answer questions to the media in real life about an accident, because you all are right - it could take the NTSB up to 6 months to generate even a preliminary report on what happened. but on here, i am anonymous! everyone should come to terms with what this message board is. its a place to throw opinions out there. none of us work for the NTSB or FAA, because if we did, we most likely wouldnt be throwing things up on here. so lets continue to share our love of aviation without biting one another's heads off for speculating. and by the way, you ATP's out there - be nicer to the younger guys who may say something a little off or of their age. educate them instead - we were all there once.

-D
 
ltbewr
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RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 7):
It might appear that way, but he's just following proper protocol...

Once there is an accident like this, it becomes the NTSB's investigation. Comair will obviously be one of the "parties" to the investigation (along with others), and as a "party" they must defer all questions on the investigative aspect of the accident to the NTSB. If a party violates this basic tenet, they can be excluded from the investigation, and that's not something that you wants to have happen

Most probably flight Comair 5191 took off from the wrong runway from our 'reasoned' observations, but only a full NTSB investigation, which will take probably a year or more can be used officially in an assessment of liability, something that is critical to potential lawsuits from the families of the victims of this accident. As a result, as noted in the quote, everybody whom is a potential 'party' or witness to the investigation cannot speak to the public. I am quite sure the pilot already has lawyers appointed to him by Comair to make sure no one hears his explanations of what happened except NTSB or local law enforcement officials involved with this investigation. Even his family will be told to keep their mouths shut under threat of lawsuits. Letting out findings too early by any party or the NTSB can compromise the investigation, change witnesses stories to cover their liability and thereby not reach a proper determination of whom is responsible and has liability here. Not being able to do the investigation properly could lead to the wrong parties being assessed blame. It can also mean wrong changes to procedures learned from this accident.
I am quite sure within a week that lawsuits for those killed will be filed in Kentucky state court in Lexington naming the airline, the pilots, the airport, the maker of the aircraft and many other parties. With the threat of such lawsuits, they have to keep their mouths shut too or else end up with too much attention to blame.
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2635
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting THVGJP (Reply 38):
Why are the officials reluctant in releasing the tail no. of the aircraft. I have heard from the news conference they wont release tail no yet, why not? The CEO of Commair stated no of cycles, hrs on airframe in the 1st news conference. Any ideas??

Press Release Source: Comair

Comair Provides Updated Information Regarding Flight 5191
Sunday August 27, 4:43 pm ET

LEXINGTON, Ky., Aug. 27, 2006 (PRIMEZONE) -- Comair President Don Bornhorst provided the following updates regarding Flight 5191 in a press conference held at 2:30 p.m. today in Lexington, Ky.

-- Comair Flight 5191, a 50-seat Bombardier CRJ100 operating from
Lexington's Blue Grass Airport to Atlanta, was involved in an
accident at approximately 6 a.m. today near the Lexington
airport. The flight was carrying 47 passengers and three crew
members.

-- Comair has confirmed that the following crew members were onboard
Flight 5191: Captain Jeffrey Clay, 35, has been an employee of
Comair since November 1999 and is based at Cincinnati/Northern
Kentucky International Airport; First Officer James Polehinke,
44, has been an employee of Comair since March 2002 and is based
at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York; Flight
Attendant Kelly Heyer, 27, has been a Comair employee since July
2004 and is based at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New
York. There was one survivor of the accident.

-- Comair continues to contact families of those who were onboard
Flight 5191 and a dedicated toll-free phone line remains
available to family and friends with inquiries about this
accident. The center can be reached at 1-800-801-0088.

-- Employee volunteers of the Comair and Delta Care Team were
dispatched to assist family members and loved ones of passengers
and crew on Comair Flight 5191 shortly after it was learned that
the flight had been involved in an accident. An initial group of
54 team members was dispatched from around the system to
Lexington and Atlanta where the families of passengers were
waiting.

-- Comair is cooperating fully with all authorities who will be
investigating this accident, including the National
Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), the Federal Aviation
Administration (FAA) and federal, local and state law enforcement
agencies. The final determination of the probable cause of the
accident will ultimately by determined by the NTSB.

-- Comair has confirmed the following information about the CRJ100
involved in this accident.
- Aircraft Type: 50-seat Bombardier CRJ100 regional jet
(Model: CL600-2B19)
- Tail number 7472
- Registration number N431CA
- Manufactured in: January 2001
- Delivered to Comair: January 30, 2001
- Airframe Cycles (total number of landings): 12,048
- Airframe Hours (flight time): 14,536.2
- Last overnight maintenance check for aircraft: Lexington
8-26-06

Comair will continue to post updated information on the accident as it is available at Comair.com.

Contact:
Comair Corporate Communications
859-767-1500
404-715-2554
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Comair
 
laxatljfkcvg
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:32 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:01 am

The comair building at CVG today was packed!!
 
146crew
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:29 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:01 am

Anyone out their from OH that can verify if this was a Continuous Duty Overnight (CDO)/Standup?

Thanks.
Cross check complete.
 
DavidT
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:37 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting THVGJP (Reply 38):
Why are the officials reluctant in releasing the tail no. of the aircraft. I have heard from the news conference they wont release tail no yet, why not? The CEO of Commair stated no of cycles, hrs on airframe in the 1st news conference. Any ideas??

Comair President gave the tail number and registration in that conference (before cycles+hours)
 
jdl1527
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:55 pm

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting PROSA (Reply 22):
do the cramped cabins on RJ's make them more difficult to evacuate than mainline aircraft?

All aircraft must be able to pass evacuation tests before certification, the fact of the matter is you should be able to get out of an CRJ in the same time that it takes to get out of a 747, in reality the crj-200 has 4 exits, 2 over the wings, more then likely unusable seeing the fire that was involved, and the main boarding door on the left side and a smaller service door on the right side. The more people on board the more exits required, case in point the -900 has 4 exits over the wings.

CNN asked the same question to an "expert" and the response was some BS that i forgot.

I a am no expert, the CRJ is one aircraft that I know a little more about then most others. But what i can say is that i think that i could be a better expert then what most of the networks had on today.

My thoughts and prayers are with the friends and family of the victims and with the F/O,
RIP Comair 191

[Edited 2006-08-28 00:18:44]
 
shamrocka330
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:45 am

RE: Comair CRJ-100 Plane Has Crashed In LEX Part II

Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:14 am

Quoting DMAJ7TH (Reply 42):
on to my point. i have seen today speculation after speculation made, followed by criticism of those speculations. harsh criticism. most of the speculation has been made by younger folks (13-25 year range) - most of them bringing up some very valid questions and formulating some good thoughts of what might have happened. my question is- what is the problem with speculating?? this is a hobbyists website!! speculation is something that runs rampid on message boards sites such as these. i say, keep speculating - its why we all joined a.net in the first place. what is the harm that its doing? fox news or msnbc would never present the info generated from blogs such as these to present to the mass public anyway. that having been said, i would NEVER speculate about an accident outside of this site. i would never answer questions to the media in real life about an accident, because you all are right - it could take the NTSB up to 6 months to generate even a preliminary report on what happened. but on here, i am anonymous! everyone should come to terms with what this message board is. its a place to throw opinions out there. none of us work for the NTSB or FAA, because if we did, we most likely wouldnt be throwing things up on here. so lets continue to share our love of aviation without biting one another's heads off for speculating. and by the way, you ATP's out there - be nicer to the younger guys who may say something a little off or of their age. educate them instead - we were all there once.

Couldn't agree more, well said. Welcome to airliners.net  Smile
aka thebigjd (member since Sept 2001)

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