APFPilot1985
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Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:26 am

Just on MSNBC, went down into a lake with a successful deployment of the parachute.
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KFLLCFII
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Thread starter):
with a successful deployment of the parachute.

Amen for CAPS. Hope everyone escaped without injury.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
uadc8contrail
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:29 am

just watched it on msnbc as well...it took off from eagle creek airport.can that a/c hold 5 pax?????extremely lucky it didnt take any houses with it.....
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
tnreynolds
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:33 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):
Amen for CAPS.

Ditto there, certinaly seems like its needed with the number of crashes Cirrus seems to have.

Tried insuring a Cirrus latley?
There cannot be a crisis next week. My schedule is already full.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):
Amen for CAPS. Hope everyone escaped without injury.

they are reporting 5 for 5
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BladeLWS
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:39 am

Thats extremely lucky it didn't land on a house. That pond is surrounded on all sides by houses and the pond looks only 100 yards across. As said above thank god for CAPS.

I'm listening to the news right now and they're calling the chute a flotation device, saying a parachute couldn't fit on that plane. Someone go and smack them upside the head...

[Edited 2006-08-28 17:40:40]
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting BladeLWS (Reply 5):
I'm listening to the news right now and they're calling the chute a flotation device, saying a parachute couldn't fit on that plane. Someone go and smack them upside the head...

They are saying a lot of stupid things.

Quoting Tnreynolds (Reply 3):
Ditto there, certinaly seems like its needed with the number of crashes Cirrus seems to have.

Tried insuring a Cirrus latley?

That is what happens when you get a lot of low time pilots with a lot of money flying aircraft that are beyond their league. Just like a Columbia or a Bonanza or malibu. Think it is bad now? Wait until the VLJ's come out.
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joness0154
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 6):
They are saying a lot of stupid things.

Well I just watched it on MSNBC, and the guy on the phone the newscasters were talking to seemed to know his stuff pretty well.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
dogfighter2111
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:59 am

Great news that they got out. What a brilliant safety device the parachute is.

http://www.cirrusdesign.com/chutehappens/

Thanks
Mike
 
tnreynolds
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 6):
That is what happens when you get a lot of low time pilots with a lot of money flying aircraft that are beyond their league.

Exacatly!  checkmark  checkmark 

Flying Cessnas just aint cool anymore.
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planemaker
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 6):
That is what happens when you get a lot of low time pilots with a lot of money flying aircraft that are beyond their league.

"A lot of low time Pilots"...

Do you even know how many CAPS deployments there have been to justify using the term "a lot"??

Do you even know any of the pilots to justify describing them as "low time"?
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
mirrodie
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:32 am

It's great to hear everyone was safe.


re: a comment above about Cirrus needing parachutes, are you statistically saying that they have more incidents and accidents than other small aircraft?

If not, then the parachute system is a great benefit to having a Cirrus.
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APFPilot1985
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 10):
"A lot of low time Pilots"...

Do you even know how many CAPS deployments there have been to justify using the term "a lot"??

Do you even know any of the pilots to justify describing them as "low time"?

Sure do, and if you don't agree talk to an insurance agency and see what I mean. I'm not referring to just the CAPS deployments either.
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planemaker
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 12):
Sure do,

Oh, sure... so you know one of the pilots that have had to deploy their parachute... right! Which one of the "lots of low time pilots" that you claim?

For your information, there has only been 5 deployments, not including todays! So that really backs up your baseless assertion...

That is what happens when you get a lot of low time pilots with a lot of money flying aircraft that are beyond their league.

And the reasons they pulled the chute have nothing to do with "an aircraft that is beyond their league" as you claim with absolutely no facts!!

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 12):
I'm not referring to just the CAPS deployments either.

Oh, sure, now you try to change your tune. In your own words...

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 6):
That is what happens when you get a lot of low time pilots with a lot of money flying aircraft that are beyond their league.

So, since you must know that each Cirrus pilot is "low time" and the reasons why they deployed CAPS, please explain just how the Cirrus is an aircraft "beyond the league of the pilots", and, more relevant, why in an aircraft like the 172 these "low time pilots" would not have had to deploy CAPS!
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:20 am

Planemaker calm down you will give yourself a stroke. You must own alot of Cirrus stock.  Wink
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
travelin man
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:09 am

I have yet to see any evidence that Cirrus pilots are somehow more "low time" than any other pilot group. My father owns and flies a Cirrus (SR20). Like most other Cirrus pilots that I've met at Cirrus fly-ins and other events, he traded up from other airplane types (Pipers, Cessnas, etc.).

The fact is that you far more likely to find a "low-time" pilot flying a Cessna 172 than a Cirrus. And it's too bad the pilots of the Cessnas can only dream of a system such as CAPS.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Thread starter):
Just on MSNBC, went down into a lake with a successful deployment of the parachute.

What an unfortunate place to land! Wonder how long the airframe stayed afloat... On the plus side, as long as it didn't sink, the airframe should be much more repairable...The 1200'/min. descent rate with the CAPS chute causes pretty major structural damage when the mains touch Terra Firma.

Glad all 5?!?!? got out safely...(is that legal in a Cirrrus?).
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flyinryan99
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 6):
That is what happens when you get a lot of low time pilots with a lot of money flying aircraft that are beyond their league.

The pilot was not a low time pilot.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 13):
please explain just how the Cirrus is an aircraft "beyond the league of the pilots", and, more relevant, why in an aircraft like the 172 these "low time pilots" would not have had to deploy CAPS!

Brilliant kid but the Cirrus is not as stable as the 172, especially at slower airspeeds. It also happens to spin much easier than a 172.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
planemaker
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 14):
Planemaker calm down you will give yourself a stroke.

Don't worry... I'm just having fun with the groundless posts.  Wink

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 18):
Brilliant kid but the Cirrus is not as stable as the 172, especially at slower airspeeds. It also happens to spin much easeier than a 172.

Brilliant kid - shows how little you know. Please point out the Cirrus accidents that could have been avoided in a 172.

In any case, the Cirrus stall speed is only 6 knots more than the 172 so it should be obvious to you that it is not "much easier" to stall than a 172... especially with its leading edge cuffs!!
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texan
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 10):
"A lot of low time Pilots"...

Do you even know how many CAPS deployments there have been to justify using the term "a lot"??

Do you even know any of the pilots to justify describing them as "low time"?

While this might prove to be the exception and not the rule, there was a Cirrus based in Alabama that had an engine failure last year, iirc, flown by an experienced pilot (good amount of jet time, etc) that necessitated the use of CAPS. Worked perfectly and all souls survived. Seems to be a good system for use in emergencies like that.

I also do know a couple of pilots who have lower time in their Cirrus craft. I don't think we can brand the Cirrus anyting like "The Doctor Killer" (Bonanza), but any high powered airplane has the potential to cause potentially fatal problems to low time pilots.

In any event, good to hear that all souls on board are safe!

Texan
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planemaker
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting Texan (Reply 20):
While this might prove to be the exception and not the rule, there was a Cirrus based in Alabama that had an engine failure last year, iirc, flown by an experienced pilot (good amount of jet time, etc) that necessitated the use of CAPS. Worked perfectly and all souls survived. Seems to be a good system for use in emergencies like that.

Yes, FYI, the very first CAPS deployment was on the Cirrus' first flight after maintenance and the aileron was rigged incorrectly. As I pointed out above, none of the Cirrus deployments would have been avoided even if the pilots were flying a 172.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
RobertS975
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:45 am

My local news program just reported that the father and pilot of the plane did get out alive but later died from injuries.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 13):
So, since you must know that each Cirrus pilot is "low time" and the reasons why they deployed CAPS, please explain just how the Cirrus is an aircraft "beyond the league of the pilots", and, more relevant, why in an aircraft like the 172 these "low time pilots" would not have had to deploy CAPS!

I am not talking about CAPS and never had, I have said multiple times I would own a cirrus before any other GA aircraft BECAUSE of CAPS. I am talking about how much it costs to insure a Cirrus. The reason is because that many low time pilots with a lot of money are buying them. If you don't believe me ask any insurance adjuster. Any of the new (and even older but still built) high performance singles are the same way.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 15):
The fact is that you far more likely to find a "low-time" pilot flying a Cessna 172 than a Cirrus. And it's too bad the pilots of the Cessnas can only dream of a system such as CAPS.

You mean the exact same system that is STC'd on the 172 and has been since 2002

http://brsparachutes.com/Default.aspx?TabId=38
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flyinryan99
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:09 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 23):
I am talking about how much it costs to insure a Cirrus. The reason is because that many low time pilots with a lot of money are buying them. If you don't believe me ask any insurance adjuster.

Planes aren't the same as cars. Most insurance agencies base rates upon the actual pilots, history of the aircraft, or location. What would you be your best guess be for a $400,000 SR22 be for an annual premium for a 5,000 hour pilot? or a 1,000 hour pilot?
 
rdwelch
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:10 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 22):
My local news program just reported that the father and pilot of the plane did get out alive but later died from injuries.

Robert, thanks for for letting us know. May he rest in peace.

Gus
They say I have ADD, but they don't understand..Oh look! A chicken!
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:12 am

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 24):
Planes aren't the same as cars. Most insurance agencies base rates upon the actual pilots, history of the aircraft, or location. What would you be your best guess be for a $400,000 SR22 be for an annual premium for a 5,000 hour pilot? or a 1,000 hour pilot?

WE aren't talking about that. I am talking about pilots with 100 hours or 200 hours that just got their license and aren't ready for something like a cirrus.

and you even said it yourself it is based on history of aircraft.

[Edited 2006-08-29 00:13:20]
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flyinryan99
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 26):
and you even said it yourself it is based on history of aircraft.

You're missing the point here. So far the SR20/SR22 have had great records...I was mostly referring to maintenance. The point was, one's rate isn't going to be exactly the same as another's just because of the same plane. The 100 hour pilots and 200 hour pilots who go out and get a SR22 will go through the Cirrus school and get instruction in it, just like anyone else. They will pay higher rates though...much higher then someone who is say a 3,000 hour pilot. My rate as a 3,000 hour pilot won't be affected very much by a bunch of 100 hour pilots smashing their planes into the ground.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:24 am

double post disregard

[Edited 2006-08-29 00:27:03]
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APFPilot1985
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 27):
My rate as a 3,000 hour pilot won't be affected very much by a bunch of 100 hour pilots smashing their planes into the ground.

Ok bottom line, two pilots equal time, lets say 500 hours both one with an SR-20, one with a 182T who is going to pay more to insure the aircraft.

Both are brand new and the price is similar who is going to pay more.
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travelin man
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 23):
You mean the exact same system that is STC'd on the 172 and has been since 2002

Yeah, I guess I should have said a system "most" Cessna pilots can only dream of. What percentage of Cirrus' have the system vs. the percentage of 172/182s? Just because it is theoretically available doesn't mean the average 172/182 pilot has access to the system.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 30):
Yeah, I guess I should have said a system "most" Cessna pilots can only dream of. What percentage of Cirrus' have the system vs. the percentage of 172/182s? Just because it is theoretically available doesn't mean the average 172/182 pilot has access to the system

Doesn't matter that's not what you said. The reality is that the average 172/182 pilot does have access to the system however the question is if the owner will have it installed.
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travelin man
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:49 am

At this point, I really don't even understand what you are arguing. Cirrus pilots are less capable? The Cirrus is hard to handle? Cirrus pilots have low hours? The Cirrus is less "safe"? The Cirrus costs more to insure?

What exactly are you arguing?
 
planemaker
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 23):
I am not talking about CAPS and never had

Ok - but, FYI, your initial response to Tnreynolds was not clear about that.

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 29):
Ok bottom line, two pilots equal time, lets say 500 hours both one with an SR-20, one with a 182T who is going to pay more to insure the aircraft.

I would assume the 182T pilot for the simple reason that the SR-20 has more "safety" features that could prevent death and minmize third party damages.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 32):
Cirrus pilots are less capable? The Cirrus is hard to handle? Cirrus pilots have low hours? The Cirrus is less "safe"? The Cirrus costs more to insure?

What exactly are you arguing?

What I am arguing is that with the advent of fast and technically challenging aircraft there have been a number of people with a lot of money that go out and get their pilots licenses with the minimum hours and jump into a cirrus or other high performance single that is out of their league.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 33):
I would assume the 182T pilot for the simple reason that the SR-20 has more "safety" features that could prevent death and minmize third party damages.

We'll see
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zotan
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 29):
Ok bottom line, two pilots equal time, lets say 500 hours both one with an SR-20, one with a 182T who is going to pay more to insure the aircraft.

A lot would depend on the hours on type. If both were coming from say, a 172, then the pilot transitioning to the 182T would be paying less in insurance due to the similarities between a 172 and a 182T.
 
aerogeek
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 33):
I would assume the 182T pilot for the simple reason that the SR-20 has more "safety" features that could prevent death and minmize third party damages.

... and could instill false confidence in some pilots. We've seen this with car safety features such as antilock brakes, airbags, traction control, etc., which can embolden drivers (on average) and have little impact on the safety record, even though they improve the survivability of a given situation. Drivers are simply more likely to get into a bad situation in the first place.

So while a given pilot who flies equally cautiously in an SR20 and a 182 will probably be safer in the Cirrus, the same may not hold true statistically across all pilots -- or at least not as true as the safety features alone would predict (time will tell). And I'm talking here about the whole package (Entegra + CAPS + real-time wx + terrain + traffic, etc.), not just one or two features that may be known to improve the safety record in isolation.

Also, keep in mind that CAPS destroys the airframe on deployment, no matter how gentle the landing.

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 18):
It also happens to spin much easier than a 172.

Where did you get this information?
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:48 am

Since this forum has gotton EXTREMELY off the main topic, let me post some updates.

The pilot bacame incapacitated after takeoff for unknown reasons and his wife activated the parachute. (There goes the pilot inexperience arguments.) The parachute was pulled bacause of inexperience though, his wife had NO experience, so it was the safest way to go.

The pilot and a friend of his had just bought this aircraft DAYS ago (so no pics in DB). The tail appears to say SR-22 GTS, but it is unclear and the reg. is N91MB.

Residents of the neighborhood jumped in to pull the people from the plane (only 4 were inside).

Pictures show that the plane will never fly again. On impact, the front section including the engine and part of the upper fuselage/roof and side panels/doors were sheared off in a jagged fashion. It apperas the second row seats still have fuselage surrounding them. The images showing the aircraft being pulled out of the water show the wings mostly separated from the fuselage and the empanage appears to be bent on the left side. Images from the 5 o'clock update video show part of the cowling had just ripped off, not just along the screw lines. Must have been a hard landing!

http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=5334340
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GQfluffy
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:49 am

Quoting BladeLWS (Reply 5):
I'm listening to the news right now and they're calling the chute a flotation device, saying a parachute couldn't fit on that plane. Someone go and smack them upside the head...

Next they'll say all that these schmoes need to do to is dry the aircraft off and restuff the shute....
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
planemaker
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:59 am

Quoting Aerogeek (Reply 36):
... and could instill false confidence in some pilots.

I would agree absolutely that false confidence could be a factor in some pilots. But at 500 hrs (the above scenario for insurance coverage) I would hope that false confidence would be an insignificant factor by then.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
KELPkid
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:00 am

Quoting Aerogeek (Reply 36):
Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 18):
It also happens to spin much easier than a 172.

Where did you get this information?



According to this article here: http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/cirrus-sr20

Quote:
pilot with 800 hours in the SR22 noted that in his experience it is not nearly as docile as the Cessna 172 and Piper Arrow that he had trained on. A CFI ("certificated flight instructor") who now flies the $3 million Pilatus PC-12 says "The Cirrus is a plane designed to go fast. You shouldn't be flying it slow. It is trickier to handle in a stall than a 172 or the Pilatus."

Once in a spin the SR20 and SR22 are virtually impossible to recover, according to the test pilots. Remember that spin testing in certification is done with a special tail parachute for breaking the spin that can then be cut away inflight.
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MCOflyer
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:25 am

May both RIP.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
planemaker
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:31 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 40):
According to this article here: http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/c...-sr20



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 40):
You shouldn't be flying it slow. It is trickier to handle in a stall than a 172 or the Pilatus."

Why??? Because the author finds it...

" harder to keep level with rudders in a stall than a Cessna or Diamond"...

Well, duh, you are not suppose to keep level with your rudder during a stall in a Cirrus. It is designed that way by Cirrus, as the author later notes...

"The outer portion of the wings, which are in front of the ailerons, are still flying and permitting the pilot to control roll with the yoke, even as the inner sections of the wings may be stalled and creating a warning buffet. This illustrates one of the advantages of composite construction;"

In other words... it is safer to keep controling roll through the stall with the same control (the aileron)... instead of having to switch to a different control (the rudder).
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Sr22GTS
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:35 am

Good to hear about a successful chute deployment. RIP to the gentleman that lost his life.
 
sphealey
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:36 am

> On the plus side, as long as it didn't sink, the
> airframe should be much more repairable..

I believe the airplane is destroyed by chute deployement; no repairs possible.

sPh
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:43 am

If you wanted an example of what I am talking about with low time pilots here you go: Now let's look at a preliminary NTSB report of a fatal Cirrus stall/spin accident that occurred last spring. The two private pilots, co-owners of a new SR22, had taken delivery of the aircraft less than a week prior to the accident.

The pilot in the left seat held an instrument rating for single- and multiengine airplanes. His logbook showed 311 hours of total flight time. The other pilot was instrument-rated in single-engine airplanes and his Cirrus client profile datasheet stated he had 475 hours of flight time. A contract flight instructor, who provided factory training, had flown with both pilots and estimated they had about 20 to 30 hours each in the SR22.

The airplane was equipped with a Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS). According to the SR22 pilot's operating handbook, "CAPS [is] designed to bring the aircraft and its occupants to the ground in the event of a life-threatening emergency. The system is intended to save the lives of the occupants but will most likely destroy the aircraft and may, in adverse circumstances, cause serious injury or death to the occupants. The CAPS consists of a parachute, a solid-propellant rocket to deploy the parachute, a [manually activated] rocket activation handle, and a harness imbedded within the fuselage structure.? CAPS is initiated by pulling the activation T-handle installed in the cabin ceiling on the airplane centerline just above the pilot's right shoulder."

The weather was good VFR with light winds. Prior to the accident a CFI reported seeing the Cirrus doing touch and goes. Radar data indicated that the target departed the airport, climbed to 5,500 feet, and then headed toward the accident area, maintaining between 5,200 feet and 5,700 feet. En route, it made a left 90-degree turn, followed by a right 90-degree turn. It then made an approximately 360-degree right turn, followed by a 360-degree left turn.

The target then continued the left turn, making smaller turns, until it reached the airspace over the accident site. Target altitude readouts in the vicinity of the accident site showed that the Cirrus started at about 5,500 feet and then lost more than 2,400 feet in less than 30 seconds before radar contact was lost.
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aerogeek
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:57 am

RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:44 am

Sorry to stray off-topic, but...

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 39):
I would agree absolutely that false confidence could be a factor in some pilots. But at 500 hrs (the above scenario for insurance coverage) I would hope that false confidence would be an insignificant factor by then.

I generally agree, though even high-time VFR pilots can get into trouble when upgrading to a nice airplane and an instrument rating at the same time.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 40):
"The Cirrus is a plane designed to go fast. You shouldn't be flying it slow. It is trickier to handle in a stall than a 172 or the Pilatus."

True, but that doesn't necessarily make it more likely to spin. Much of the low-speed handling characteristics have to do with the unique control linkages on the Cirrus. I haven't read any pilot reports of spins other than from Cirrus test pilots, so I was curious if there was an independent report out there. I'll agree that it is a rather interesting aircraft to stall.
 
eclipseflight7
Posts: 482
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting Aerogeek (Reply 46):
I haven't read any pilot reports of spins other than from Cirrus test pilots, so I was curious if there was an independent report out there.

SOP in a spin is to pull the CAPS handle.
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APFPilot1985
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:58 am

Quoting EclipseFlight7 (Reply 47):
SOP in a spin is to pull the CAPS handle.

Spot on, in fact in cirrus training pilots are told not to even waste time trying to get themselves out of one or recovering.
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: Cirrus Crashes Near Indianapolis

Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:34 am

Quoting Tnreynolds (Reply 3):
Tried insuring a Cirrus latley?

Actually yes. A bugger--and painful--to say the least.

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 48):
Spot on, in fact in cirrus training pilots are told not to even waste time trying to get themselves out of one or recovering.

 checkmark  Absolutely correct.

Quoting Aerogeek (Reply 46):
I'll agree that it is a rather interesting aircraft to stall.

True. In fact when I was getting standardized as an instructor in the Cirrus I only did a full power-off stall; they would only let me do (and teach) power on stalls to the imminent position. It's not the easiest airplane in the world to hand-fly either, especially after transitioning out of airplanes with no electric trim to one that pretty much relies on it.

It's a unique go-fast and relatively inexpensive (relatively) airplane, but it does have it's quirks--and it's gotchas.

I wouldn't trust that 'chute in plenty of situations (namely the ones above 133 knots). We get a lot of people thinking it's like the reset button on a video game. I think of it more as an absolute last resort--a guarantee you'll crash, but you might be giving yourself more of a chance to walk away with less injuries.
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