OttoPylit
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DL Will Retire DL5191

Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:13 pm

Delta will remove 5191 from the list of flight numbers used by Delta Connection carrier Comair, after the crash of Flight 5191 Sunday as it was bound from Lexington, Ky., to Atlanta. It is a traditional industry practice of respect following a serious accident.

With our current schedule, the service pattern for the Sunday morning flight from LEX to ATL differs from the weekday schedule. As scheduled, Flight 6107 departed LEX for ATL at 6:02 a.m., an Embraer 145 regional jet operated by Delta Connection carrier Freedom Airlines. With the new schedule effective Sept. 6, Freedom Airlines Flight 6107 also will operate the weekend frequencies.


Also:

Comair will release the passenger manifest for Flight 5191 after conferring with family members to ensure the protection of their privacy. The family notification process has been completed, including notifying families of international customers. Comair and Delta Care Team members are asking permission from individual families before publicly releasing the identities of their loved ones.

The Comair and Delta Care Teams have increased assistance to family members and loved ones of the passengers and crew. More than 100 employee volunteers have been dispatched from around the system, in addition to the approximately 50 Care Team members dispatched Sunday.



OttoPylit
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kc135topboom
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:24 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
Delta will remove 5191 from the list of flight numbers used by Delta Connection carrier Comair, after the crash of Flight 5191

Flight # 191 seems to not be a good flight number for anyone, OH-191 (DL-5191), DL-191, and AA-191.
 
NWrr
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:37 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
Delta will remove 5191 from the list of flight numbers used by Delta Connection carrier Comair, after the crash of Flight 5191 Sunday as it was bound from Lexington, Ky., to Atlanta. It is a traditional industry practice of respect following a serious accident.

You are correct. Most often they will retire the flight number after an accident, but not always. A prime example is AA Flt 1, which crashed on 01 March, 1962, but is still in use today JFK-LAX. It's quite curious as to why numbers are sometimes not retired after an incident.

Of course, as always, condolences to those who lost loved ones on 5191.
Welcome to the back of the boat...the non-rev section
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:57 pm

Quoting NWrr (Reply 2):
It's quite curious as to why numbers are sometimes not retired after an incident.

Well, in the case of AA1, it is probably because the flight number is too prestigious to them.
 
positiverate
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:42 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
The Comair and Delta Care Teams have increased assistance to family members and loved ones of the passengers and crew. More than 100 employee volunteers have been dispatched from around the system, in addition to the approximately 50 Care Team members dispatched Sunday.

Otto, its my understanding (contrary to what MSNBC was reporting ont he day of the crash), that within the first 30 minutes of the hotline being set up after the crash the 181 folks manning the hotlines took over 6000 calls with an average wait time of 31 seconds. Good work by your people.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 4):
Otto, its my understanding (contrary to what MSNBC was reporting ont he day of the crash), that within the first 30 minutes of the hotline being set up after the crash the 181 folks manning the hotlines took over 6000 calls with an average wait time of 31 seconds. Good work by your people.

(nonchalantly brushing off both arms) Ahhh, not a problem, all in a days work. lol Actaully, that is a good point you make though. 6000 calls fielded by 181 Delta Care Team volunteers? By my calculations, and I suck at math, thats 33.1 calls per person? Someone help me clear that up, becuase that is either really quick calls, or they were able to hold 2 conversations at once!

I got to hand it to the Delta Care Team, though. These are volunteers, not getting paid any extra, who opt to go through specialized training just for this very type of scenario. Its something I know I probably would not have the patience or time to put in for it, but I give these folks my highest respect for being able to do so.

From reading up on the accident this morning, the recent runway and taxiway construction was confusing to several pilots, and there were NOTAM's out in regards to the runway lighting being affected on the commercial runway, which may have seemed not surprising that during the takeoff roll, the pilots unconcerningly commented on the lack of lighting. It seems that they were not even aware that the end of the runway was near, as the plane skidded in the grass past the runway before hitting an earth enbankment and becoming airborne. According to the news reports, if there was another 39 feet of runway left, the plane would have made it airborne safely. It is good to know that if this was going to be a tragic accident, there are many factors other than just simple, ignorant pilot error that contributed.



OttoPylit
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jfklganyc
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:04 am

"Well, in the case of AA1, it is probably because the flight number is too prestigious to them."

Prestigious yes. But if it happened today, it would be retired. 1962 was a time without CNN, FoxNews, MSNBC, and the internet. Today a crash and the flight number involved are plastered everywhere for all to see.

Can you imagine if TWA operated a TWA Flight 800 between JFK and CDG in the years following the crash(I believe it became 902)? Everyone knows TWA 800; it wouldn't work.

I always wondered why airlines use such flight numbers like 800 or 500 etc. It's too memorable it a crash occurs.

PJ
 
AlexPorter
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:13 am

Will Delta 5191 still operate on September 3rd? Or will they sub an alternate flight number last minute?
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FutureFO
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:37 am

No the flight will not operate. It is completely retired from the CRS system. Read above.



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sq452
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:06 am

Does anyone else find it creepily coincidental that the two comair crashes in the last 10 years, both had the second and fourth digit of the flight numbers as the same? For instance:

Comair crash in Detroit
#3272 (both the second and fourth digits are the same)

Comair crash in Lexington
#5191 (same thing)

Also...it is common practice when they announce these flights that they will say something like "now boarding for comair flight 32-72" and split the 4 digit flight number into two.

In both cases if you split the 4 digit flight number up in both instances (32-72 and 51-91) the difference between each in those cases is 40 (32-72 a difference of 40, and 51-91 a difference of 40 too).

I just find it a little creepy and disturbing. All very sad. I flew on Sunday with DL out of BOS and they were pretty down there since there is a fairly large contingent of Comair CRJ's there.

I think there is a science behind this called numeronics or numerology that looks at stuff like this...

R.I.P. 5191 passengers you will all be missed  

[Edited 2006-08-30 02:07:42]
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
navairjax
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 6):
But if it happened today, it would be retired.

IIRC, the practice of retiring flight numbers after a major accident began sometime in the 1970s (PSA 182 always comes to mind as being one of the first to do so.)
 
aa777sjc
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 9):
Does anyone else find it creepily coincidental that the two comair crashes in the last 10 years, both had the second and fourth digit of the flight numbers as the same? For instance:

This isn't that mathematically significant:

Once you pick a number that has 2 digits in commom, there are 1000 more 4 digit numbers that repeat in those same two digits and differ in the other . (basically 10 choices for the number that gets repeated and 10 choices each of the other 2 digits. I supposed technically it's 10*9*8 = 720 since 4444 doesn't really have the same relationship is 3272 even thought the 2nd and 4th digit is equal.)

The 72-32 = 40 constraint is a bit more significant, but there are still around 50 numbers (out of 10000 possible 4 digit flight numbers.) so it's a 1 in 200 or 0.5% chance.

The far more mathematically odd event is that 3 airlines have lost a flight 191 since 1979. If you assume crashes are completely random and directly related to the number of times a flight is flown, the chance of one flight number is shared by 3 crashes has got to be fairly astronomical.
 
goingboeing
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:46 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Flight # 191 seems to not be a good flight number for anyone, OH-191 (DL-5191), DL-191, and AA-191.

Call me supersticious, but I don't like any flight where the first and last number are the same (191, 232...)
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:43 am

Quoting AA777SJC (Reply 12):
This isn't that mathematically significant:

Speaking of mathematically significant, I know people have noticed that the number 191, rearranged makes 911. Has anyone ever added up the flight numbers that crashed on 9/11?

11+77+175+93=456.

Then, add the first two and last two digits of that number

4+5=9, and 5+6=11
9 and 11
Good goes around!
 
sw733
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 9):
Does anyone else find it creepily coincidental that the two comair crashes in the last 10 years, both had the second and fourth digit of the flight numbers as the same? For instance:

Comair crash in Detroit
#3272 (both the second and fourth digits are the same)

Comair crash in Lexington
#5191 (same thing)

WOW, you need a girlfriend  Wink

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 6):
"Well, in the case of AA1, it is probably because the flight number is too prestigious to them."

Prestigious yes. But if it happened today, it would be retired. 1962 was a time without CNN, FoxNews, MSNBC, and the internet. Today a crash and the flight number involved are plastered everywhere for all to see.

I completely agree with this - there is no way it could get by these days
 
RyanAFAMSP
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:48 am

I didn't realize that the practice of retiring flight numbers has been contingent upon our media saturated age. This puts older practices of not retiring accident flight numbers into context.

Someone told me that TW847 had multiple incidents prior to the hijacking off of ATH in 1985. I believe TW usually used 847 for the CAI-ATH-FCO segment. A TWA 707 crashed into the Ionian Sea off of ATH in the early 70s. Was its flight number 847? Does anyone know if there had been other incidents on this route?
 
sw733
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:54 am

Quoting RyanAFAMSP (Reply 16):
Someone told me that TW847 had multiple incidents prior to the hijacking off of ATH in 1985

TWA flight 841 has had two incidents, but TWA flight 847 was just the one hijacking, note the wikipedia reference for TWA flight 841

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_841
 
AlexPorter
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 8):
No the flight will not operate. It is completely retired from the CRS system. Read above.

The quote doesn't answer my question. The quote at the top says that the Sunday flight will be changed following the September 6th schedule change / when the new timetable comes out. According to the current timetable, Comair is still scheduled to fly LEX-ATL at 6:00 AM on Sunday (September 3rd). What I'm wondering is this: For that last Comair-operated flight before the switch to Freedom after the 6th, will THAT EXACT flight still be 5191 or will they switch to some available Comair number for that day only? I'm sure plenty of seats on that flight are booked by now, so will there be one of Delta's schedule changes on their itineraries?
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pillowtester
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 9):
Does anyone else find it creepily coincidental that the two comair crashes in the last 10 years, both had the second and fourth digit of the flight numbers as the same? For instance:

Comair crash in Detroit
#3272 (both the second and fourth digits are the same)

Comair crash in Lexington
#5191 (same thing)

Also...it is common practice when they announce these flights that they will say something like "now boarding for comair flight 32-72" and split the 4 digit flight number into two.

In both cases if you split the 4 digit flight number up in both instances (32-72 and 51-91) the difference between each in those cases is 40 (32-72 a difference of 40, and 51-91 a difference of 40 too).

I just find it a little creepy and disturbing. All very sad. I flew on Sunday with DL out of BOS and they were pretty down there since there is a fairly large contingent of Comair CRJ's there.

I think it's more creepy that you spent valuable time thinking about that, posting it on a forum, and that I spent valuable time reading it.
...said Dan jubilantly.
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:04 pm

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 13):
Call me supersticious, but I don't like any flight where the first and last number are the same (191, 232...)

That is called a palindrome I believe. I don't blame you for being superstitious. only 10% of numbers are palindromes, but it seems that many flight numbers that crash are these types of numbers.
I love ASO!
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:25 pm

For all you number people: On the radio, the Comair flight would have been using "Comair 191."
Chicks dig winglets.
 
dc10s4ever
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:36 pm

Eastern kept EA401 for years after 401 crashed in the everglades
 
flymia
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:46 pm

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 25):
For all you number people: On the radio, the Comair flight would have been using "Comair 191."

191 is just a bad flight number. I said on this fourm years ago that if I had a flight is the flight number 191 on any airline I would not like to go on it. Here is another case.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
UA772IAD
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:54 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 5):
I got to hand it to the Delta Care Team, though. These are volunteers, not getting paid any extra, who opt to go through specialized training just for this very type of scenario. Its something I know I probably would not have the patience or time to put in for it, but I give these folks my highest respect for being able to do so

Thanks for the information OttoPylit!

I'm curious to know (either if You know, or someone else, and I hope NOT from a personal visit) how these care agents/greif counseleors, etc. dispatched by the airline, are handled/viewed by the family members of the victims. Meaning, is there a general negative or positive view towards these volunteers? Obviously, an individual's reaction to a tragedy to trauma is unique, but I do wonder how effective the care agents are?
 
sq452
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:35 pm

Quoting PillowTester (Reply 18):
I think it's more creepy that you spent valuable time thinking about that, posting it on a forum, and that I spent valuable time reading it.

I actually only realized it when i was watching Fox news channel and they flashed the 3272 crash, and then the 5191. I have always been quick on math and I think outside the box and I notice odd stuff like that. So really...i didn't spend much time on it....I think I had that figured out maybe 30 seconds after the fox news segment....

Quoting SW733 (Reply 14):
WOW, you need a girlfriend

Yah...but my ex loved this dorky side of me.  Wink
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
RyanAFAMSP
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:34 am

Quoting SW733 (Reply 16):
TWA flight 841 has had two incidents, but TWA flight 847 was just the one hijacking, note the wikipedia reference for TWA flight 841

SW733,

Thanks so much for the search. I knew that TW841 came into MSP, my home airport, but I didn't realize this was the flight number that also had the Ionian sea crash. And to my knowledge 841 remained with TW as a flight number till nearly the end, always on the FCO-JFK leg, though the ATH, TLV, and MSP connections were long gone.
 
OttoPylit
Topic Author
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 23):
I'm curious to know (either if You know, or someone else, and I hope NOT from a personal visit) how these care agents/greif counseleors, etc. dispatched by the airline, are handled/viewed by the family members of the victims. Meaning, is there a general negative or positive view towards these volunteers? Obviously, an individual's reaction to a tragedy to trauma is unique, but I do wonder how effective the care agents are?

Well, we can all agree the first reaction is to kill the messenger, and cause serious harm to anyone who tries to help in such a grief stricken situation. The Care Team is basically there to assist and support the families affected, just as the Red Cross would, but it provides a kind of feeling of, "Well, the airline cares enough for this that they send their own people to help us", as compared to just turning your back and hoping the accident is forgotten quickly. They are a shoulder to cry on, someone to just listen, to assist with any accomodations the family may need-phone calls, hotels, food, etc.

Basically, its Delta's point to free up more people for the Red Cross to be more productive in whatever they must do, to be with the families and be able to take actions that the family would like as they grieve, and also to show that even though this tragic accident cannot be avoided now, the airline is fully equipped to provide you with whatever you need during this time, and the staffing to assist as well.

Some of the families were critical in the news briefs, saying they felt Delta was giving them the run around all day, but the Care Team was quickly rushed their, with little to no advance information on what happened, and were suddenly expected to know whats going on? But like I said, the typical reaction is always to kill the messenger, which is what many of these volunteers were to find out there were no more survivors than the one.



OttoPylit
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ckfred
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:02 pm

I don't remember the flight number, but the AA retired the number used by the MD-80 that crashed after landing at LIT in 1999.

And I think UA retired 232 after the Sioux City crash.
 
twal1011727
Posts: 449
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RE: DL Will Retire DL5191

Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:16 am

Comair's sunday flt is now OH9763/3SEP, it is valid for tomorrow only.
DL has a schedule change on 06SEP and this flt has been changed/dropped totally.

KD

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