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Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:47 pm

... among other things. Given the types they wanted to order in the past, OU would by now have had the most diverse fleet on the planet  biggrin .

On a serious note, as reported by an on-line business/economy journal (link in Croatian here), sources close to OU have reported that the company is "intensely considering" buying some regional jets. The same sources, though unnamed, say that negotiations with Bombardier for four CRJ-900 are already underway. The OU PR department didn't offer any clarification ("no comments at this time").

It remains to be seen what, if anything, will come out of this deal. Four new planes for an 11-strong fleet might significantly boost capacity and lighten the strain on many routes, as well as opening new ones. The article mentioned that the RJs would be used on short and medium haul routes, which would fit with domestic and nearby destination (ZRH for example)... but we'll have to wait and see.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:29 pm

Hmmmm, interesting, apparently JAT is still going ahead with CRJ-900 purchase as well - to be announced shortly apparently.

I wonder if JU and OU approached Bombardier together and got a better price?
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Aleksandar
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting TripleDelta (Thread starter):
negotiations with Bombardier for four CRJ-900 are already underway.

It is interesting. CRJ-900 would fit nicely between ATR-42 and A319. The good thing about possible purchase of CRJ-900 is that OU can count on technical support of Lufthansa.

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 1):
I wonder if JU and OU approached Bombardier together and got a better price?

I doubt it.  Sad Although it would have been a nice business move.

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 1):
JAT is still going ahead with CRJ-900 purchase as well

If they asked me, CRJ-900 is what JAT needs, but their general menager is constantly repeating they need 70-seater. Somehow, I'm still afraid that they might go for CRJ-700 and have regional jets of the same capacity as ATR-72.

On a funnier note, I just wonder what would delivery scheme look like?  scared 

Interestingly, with MAT already operating CRJ-900, and JU and OU as possible buyers of the type, we might have a true successor of famous DC-9 in the region.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:42 am

Seems like the CRJ900 will become a popular plane in the Adriatic area. Adria Airways (JP) is also considering getting at least two of them in the not so distant future, according to uncomfirmed rumours. They are also looking at the A319, but as I understand it, they concluded it is simply to heavy for the routes they fly (mostly short-haul). I think it's too bad Adria didn't consider the ERJ-195, since it's a much more comfortable plane to fly in. I guess it's because JP also operates a Bombardier maintenance center, which is becoming an imporant part of their revenues and going Embraer wouldn't be exactly constructive for their business relations with the Canadian company.

[Edited 2006-08-29 18:46:56]

[Edited 2006-08-29 18:48:04]

[Edited 2006-08-29 18:49:16]
 
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 2):
If they asked me, CRJ-900 is what JAT needs, but their general menager is constantly repeating they need 70-seater.

Then they can buy both  Smile The CR7 and CR9 share 90% commonality, if not more now that they use the same engine - when the engine reaches its numbers on the CR9 it can be installed on the CR7 and fly derated for 2,000-3,000 more hours...

Also, with Adria Airways having a BBD tech-centre and LH Cityline being quite an expert on CRJs as well there's plenty of support.

I think Bombardier's future success with CRJs lie in Europe. Hopefully they think so too and send their best marketing and sales people over here...
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting BigSky123 (Reply 3):
Seems like the CRJ900 will become a popular plane in the Adriatic area.

So, DC-9 will have a successor. I believe, you also rememeber how many DC-9s of JAT and Adria were there around.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 4):
Then they can buy both

I'm not sure they would need both. ATR-72s are doing their job just fine and what seems like the biggest problem is the lack of plane of the size of DC-9-32. Although not exactly the same category, CRJ-900 seems just fine for thinner European routes.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 4):
Hopefully they think so too and send their best marketing and sales people over here...

Bombardier delegation visited Belgrade and JAT recently and so did Embraer.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:50 am

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 2):
they asked me, CRJ-900 is what JAT needs, but their general menager is constantly repeating they need 70-seater. Somehow, I'm still afraid that they might go for CRJ-700 and have regional jets of the same capacity as ATR-72.

Possible but I think they got a much better offer for the CR9 than the CR7.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting BigSky123 (Reply 3):
They are also looking at the A319

JP badly needs good refurbishments of their A320's - even better, new aircraft! I thought that JAT's 733's interiors were bad, that's until I discovered that JP's were about the same.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 6):
Possible but I think they got a much better offer for the CR9 than the CR7.

I hope so. The problem is that all they are talking about is 70-seater and CR9 is bigger than that. Of course, one can never trust "aviation experts" either from JAT or from our media. Big grin

Oh, BTW, two days ago LH used one to BEG. I saw it from my window. Really elegant bird.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 2):
The good thing about possible purchase of CRJ-900 is that OU can count on technical support of Lufthansa.



Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 2):
nterestingly, with MAT already operating CRJ-900

Two of the reasons why is OU looking at the CRJ900 in the first place:

- LH can take pretty good care of them, and the MX departments of both LH and OU have always had a tight relationship (LH trains OU mechs, OU does some checks and outfitting for LH)

- according to the article, MAT got its three for $86 million, which is, as far as I get it, pretty cheap, so OU of course tried to strike a similar deal for itself...
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 9):
MAT got its three for $86 million, which is, as far as I get it, pretty cheap

Yes, but one of them is not new. In fact, it is one of the prototypes.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:00 pm

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 10):
In fact, it is one of the prototypes.

The inflight announcement for that one will probably pass well with the pax: "Ladies and gentlemen, welcome aboard this MAT prototype CRJ-900."  bigthumbsup 
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:18 pm

Might be a good time to send OU my resume  Smile

TripleDelta, thanks for posting this news. It is always nice to read new news regarding Croatia Airlines.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:41 am

Does OU have any plans on retiring the ATR-42's any time soon?


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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting CB777 (Reply 13):
Does OU have any plans on retiring the ATR-42's any time soon?

So far, no. There have been rumors going around for awhile now that once the [insert aircraft type] arrives, the ATRs are going to be relegated to cargo duties - not a drastic shift in itself, since two out of the existing three are quick-change versions anyway. I think this first came up when OU wanted to order brand new ATR-72s to replace the ageing -42s.

[Edited 2006-08-31 20:41:05]
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 12):
Might be a good time to send OU my resume

In a related story, OU is looking for five captains and first officers for the A319/320 fleet...
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:46 pm

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 11):
"Ladies and gentlemen, welcome aboard this MAT prototype CRJ-900."

Hahaha, good one, I can see the following announcement, "Welcome aboard this MAT experimental CRJ-900" Big grin Big grin
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:35 pm

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 16):
"Welcome aboard this MAT experimental CRJ-900"

"....Which means we'll perform experiments on you, dear passengers, during this flight."  Silly
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 15):
In a related story, OU is looking for five captains and first officers for the A319/320 fleet...

TripleDelta, thanks again.

I would like to know what Croatia Airlines pilots are payed? If anyone has any idea please tell base rate for Captains and FO's?

I'm guessing TripleDelta that you might know  crossfingers  Smile.

Thanks again
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:32 am

Any other news for OU for next year 2007, maybe bigger airplanes? or any new routes?

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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 18):
I would like to know what Croatia Airlines pilots are payed? If anyone has any idea please tell base rate for Captains and FO's?

While I personally do not have any concrete numbers (I can hazard a few I've heard over the years, but I can not pin down any specific number), OU pilots (and core aviation personnel in general - mx, ATC, ...) are among the best paid people in the country, according to a study from a year or so back. While they do not bask in riches, OU aircrew are quite a bit above the Croatian standard.

Quoting CB777 (Reply 19):
Any other news for OU for next year 2007, maybe bigger airplanes? or any new routes?

Apart from the actual CRJ-900 deal, I personally haven't picked up anything interesting - apart from the usual frequent flyer and holiday pack deals. Judging by media reports, OU has for a time now been focusing on smaller aircraft (AT72, CJ9), with possibilities of them opening new short- to medium-haul routes, or increasing frequencies on existing ones. The afore mentioned cargo services with AT42s may actually start when new aircraft arrive to replace the 42s.

EDIT: typos... forgot to hit the spellcheck button...

[Edited 2006-09-01 22:00:06]
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:22 am

Cheers TripleDelta.

I look forward to hearing you give me clearance to land at Zagreb Pleso. hyper 

CB777, this is from Croatia Airlines web site.

Question Does Croatia Airlines plan to establish direct flights to and from the USA in the near future?
Answer At the time being we are not planning to establish direct and charter flights to the USA, for commercial reasons. Although we are well aware of a large number of our immigrants who live in the USA, Croatia can be reached via larger European cities (Munich, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Paris, Rome etc.). Croatia Airlines is an airline with middle range aircraft and, in order to establish a connection with North American cities, Croatia Airlines would have to change its fleet, which is not its present plan. Please note that several departments within Croatia Airlines, the government authorities of the Ministry of the Sea, Tourism, Transport and Development, as well as the government authorities of the state of arrival decide upon establishment of a new route. The decision depends on the regulatory rules of the countries involved, the flight schedule and other factors.

It would be great to see OU flights to the US and Australia especially now would be a good time to take advantage of Austrian Airlines pull out of the Australia market next year where already a large number of pax on these flights were flying onto Croatia, for in Australia in the Croatian community it was advertised as the main airline to use to fly to Croatia and many Croatian did use it.

OU could learn from Lauda and set up the operation in a similar way which by all reports was said to be a profitable route sector for them. It was not until Austrian Airlines took over and apparently there model proved to be unprofitable on the Australian sectors.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:25 am

BTW the last two paragraphs were my own input not OU.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:14 am

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 21):
It would be great to see OU flights to the US and Australia

Yes, it would be great, but I can't see it in the future. Without a doubt, OU could have full planes during high season to the US, but it is well-known that it is not enough to have profits. For that, you need a high-yield passengers and to attract them, you need to invest a lot of money. At the moment, OU and JP did a good job joining the Star Alliance.

As for Australia service, it seems interesting, but it is actually a hell where only the richest players could survive. The main problem there is difficult to be solved. Flights are too long and airline needs more planes to keep that service. Speaking of Lauda/Austrian, I think Lauda started to feel problems on this route in their last days as an independent airline.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:36 pm

There are other things to consider as well when starting long-haul services. It's not as simple as buying a plane and having it fly that route - you'd also need a backup plane if the main one goes u/s, as well as a backup crew(s). If you don't, the whole deal will make much more of a loss than any gain, since you loose the pax run, while at the same time having a huge mx bill and tying the only plane down from flying other routes.

The way I personally see it, you either have several widebodies, or none. But then, having two or three such aircraft is way out of the budget of a company that has been making a profit for only two of its 14 years of existence. It would be great to see a 747 or A340 in OU colors (heck, it'd be great to see a Concorde in OU colors  bigthumbsup  ), but the size of the market, not to mention the load of competitors who have a much more developed long-haul infrastructure and experience, make the whole thing unfeasible in OU's eyes. The "Croatian company flying the route" factor would probably not make up for inferior service, frequencies and inevitably higher prices.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:57 pm

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 24):

You know, for as long as I live, I will remember those early morning arrivals of DC-10s and 707s and I'd love to see planes from Far East and Australia returning back home as it was the case in "good old days" but market is different now and I'm not sure that those days will ever come. At least not for the small airlines in this region.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:08 am

It would be special to see an airliner from the region back in Sydney again.

It is unfortunate that with the cost of running an airline continues to increase on large sectors such as Europe Australia we even see companies such as Qantas pull out of many routes. No more QF flights to Athens, Belgrade, Rome, Paris, just Heathrow and Frankfurt are still enjoying QF services in Europe.

But with JetStar expanding internationally, they are rumoured to take up many of these former services that QF with a high running cost can not afford to do. We may in the near future see flight to Rome, Paris Athens and maybe even Belgrade or Zagreb by Qantas using the JetStar model i.e. much lower running costs.

So my point is this. What I see as an advantage for Croatia Airlines, not so much for JAT airways, is that as a relatively new airlines with no long haul routes and running cost which are not profitable on long sectors,(because they have none) they can study what the market will be like presently and in the future take this on board and if they do decide on expanding to US or Australia set it up the same way JetStar will with minimum running costs.

With a little initiative and some 'balls' well the sky really is the limit.

Why I think OU has the edge over Jat? Well Jat still seems to be bogged down somewhat and restricted to the tradition that have existed with the airline for a long time. In a business sense that is a bad thing because you have to convince all involved to except radical changes with in the company. Something which is extremely difficult to do, not only in aviation but in all industry.
Croatia Airlines can start with a 'clean slate' and develop the model to there and the markets liking.

Look at Geoff Dixon and Qantas for an example. He had no chance of implementing changes within QF it self to keep the company going so he just started a new airline from scratch.... JetStart.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:52 am

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 26):
Well Jat still seems to be bogged down somewhat and restricted to the tradition that have existed with the airline for a long time. In a business sense that is a bad thing because you have to convince all involved to except radical changes with in the company.

You are absolutely right here, but things are changing. Government seems sick and tired of JAT and in the last few weeks talks about finding a strategic partner (buyer) have intensified. What JAT needs are generally two things:
1. cash
2. professional menagement

As for possible buyers, media speculate with Lufthansa, but I wouldn't be surprised to see someone else, like AF, BA (OK, with Malev in OneWorld, this is just my good wish) or even someone who needs better presence in Europe. Someone like EK or VS. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all. There are two main reasons why I'm mentioning those two airlines:
1. JAT already has commercial agreement with both of them :with VS for North Atlantic transit passengers) and with EK for Far East, Australia/NZ, South Africa. Both airlines could use a feeder for their flights and in both cases, JAT's expansion would be oriented towards the region of former Yugoslavia and Eastern Europe. But these are just speculations.

As for your mentioning OU and JU as young vs. old airline in long-haul sector, believe me, JAT's experience means very little these days. Their last flight to SYD was in early 1992 and so many things have changed in the meantime. First, in the late 1980s JAT did'n rely only on local passengers but on Austrian as well and many people used the opportunity to fly JAT to Far East in the situation when OS had no long-haul services and others were more expensive.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:57 am

Doesnt OU have 6 A320's types on option? If I remember correctly back in 1997 the original airbus order was 6 confirmed which are now delivered and 6 options. Why dont they put the 6 options to confirmed orders?


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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 26):
Croatia Airlines can start with a 'clean slate' and develop the model to there and the markets liking.

OU is not far above the general airline mentality of the region. They've finally made a profit (despite rising fuel costs) and the last thing they'd need now is to spend this hard-won achievement on dicey long-haul options. Personally, I don't see OU as the gambling type now, especially not as the radical gambling type, at least not until they can secure profit quarter after quarter. What may be welcome profit now may turn into sour loss the next quarter...

Plus, it's finally time for OU to stand on its own feet, rather than to continue being pumped with taxpayer money. Long-haul is quite an investment regardless of any business model, an investment OU could better spend now consolidating their own current profit-making model and moving toward full privatisation - and wait for a better climate and, more importantly, market, to go Vegas. If OU were a private company, I'd say "fine, go ahead", but I'm not so hot on my parents and other citizens paying for unnecessarily risky, and possibly futile, long-haul plans.

Quoting CB777 (Reply 28):
Doesnt OU have 6 A320's types on option? If I remember correctly back in 1997 the original airbus order was 6 confirmed which are now delivered and 6 options. Why dont they put the 6 options to confirmed orders?

I've heard that as well. Judging by their current state, and the reported rising expenses of operating the A320 family on some OU routes, I'd believe they didn't take up those options. The regional jet deal, even though it may not come through, would support this, since four RJs and six Busses are way out of OU's budget... the entire current fleet is probably worth as much as those 10 planes...
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:47 am

I guess the A321 would be too big for their routes?


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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 5):
So, DC-9 will have a successor. I believe, you also rememeber how many DC-9s of JAT and Adria were there around.

But the DCs were comfortable compared to the CRJ-900. JP will probably go for the CRJs and for sure this will again be a mistake (after the CRJ-200, this will be their second bad choice).

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 23):
OU and JP did a good job joining the Star Alliance.

I don't think that joining Star was a good step for JP. They have lost AF and Aeroflot as their partners and being dependent only on one carrier and one market (most flight are going to Germany) could be dangerous for a small carrier. They have probably expected for LH to get some bigger share of the airline but that didn't happen.

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 7):
JP badly needs good refurbishments of their A320's - even better, new aircraft! I thought that JAT's 733's interiors were bad, that's until I discovered that JP's were about the same.

Well this is not because of the Airbus but because of the Airline. Adria is clearly a mess at the moment. They change CEOs every month and always put somebody who doesn't know exactly what he is doing. The CEO they have know thinks that Swiss is a low cost carrier Smile, and with comments like "LCCs are not a long-term threat to us" this airline for sure is not in good hands. Maybe our government will sell their share of the airline and only then JP could have a long-term success.
 
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 31):
But the DCs were comfortable compared to the CRJ-900

They were, but the market has changed and the only other option is Embraer. Now, Adria is already operating CRJ200 so it will be a logical step to add bigger models.

Quoting Adria (Reply 31):
I don't think that joining Star was a good step for JP.

Yes and no. On one side Adria secured its position in the region on the other they lost something else. It just proves how difficult these days are for small airlines. As for flying mainly to one market, that was the case with Adria even in the days of former Yugoslavia. Somehow, airline is oriented towards that market.

My feeling is that something is wrong with priorities in Adria when you look at their fleet plans. I would rather see few A319s as a replacement of their old A320s which seem too big for Slovenian market. Also, it would not be a bad idea to consider Q400.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 32):
Also, it would not be a bad idea to consider Q400.

I second that. With LJU in the middle of Europe, most destinations are, what, 1-2 hours away? Perfect for the Q300 and Q400, with CRJ700 and CRJ900 for longer flights.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 33):
With LJU in the middle of Europe, most destinations are, what, 1-2 hours away? Perfect for the Q300 and Q400, with CRJ700 and CRJ900 for longer flights.

Exactly my point. If Luxair could change their mind, why Adria can't?
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:56 am

Also, having geographic position longer CRJs are much better fit for OU than JP and OU can really add more frequencies with such planes on routes from SPU and DBV to Europe and throughout the region.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:34 am

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 32):
My feeling is that something is wrong with priorities in Adria when you look at their fleet plans. I would rather see few A319s as a replacement of their old A320s which seem too big for Slovenian market. Also, it would not be a bad idea to consider Q400.

A Q400 is a good option but an unlikely one. They probably won't go back to props (but they should). I really wonder what they'll do but it seems that no good will come out of this...but hopefully no CRJ900s...

OU is in a much better position, tourism is developing fast and with mostly new Airbus in the fleet they don't need to worry much.
 
Aleksandar
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:23 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 36):
They probably won't go back to props (but they should).

They should look at Luxair who was in similar situation. Sold their Fokker 50, bought some Embraers and made losses. Now, after that ordeal, they are buying Q400.
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TripleDelta
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RE: Croatia Airlines Rumored To Get CRJ-900s...

Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:57 pm

Quoting CB777 (Reply 30):
I guess the A321 would be too big for their routes?

It appears so. On some routes you can hardly fill up the A320, so while the A321 would be useful on some high density routes that are often packed, that's basically the only place where it could be useful (except maybe for charter work) - and would consequently end up making a more of loss.
No plane, no gain.

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