mrocktor
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HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:56 pm

Deliveries to Hainan Airlines start in 2007.

The ERJ-145 will be produced by Embraer's chinese joint venture Harbin Embraer Aircraft Industry, the E190 will be produced in Brazil. Press release.

mrocktor
 
MCOflyer
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:01 pm

Great to see HNA order the E-190. Hopefully more Chinese airlines will follow suit.

MCOflyer
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cobra27
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:05 pm

What a big order. This really boost both plane 145 and 190
 
N754PR
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:12 pm

Wow. Thats a huge order... some very happy people at Emb.
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MEA-707
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:14 pm

Interesting to see the chinese produce some ERJ 145s at a trickle, a plane which saw its sale plummet in the last two years and which seems at the end of its production cycle. I guess Continental Express or some others would be all too happy to sell some 2nd hand ERJ 145s to them but it's a prestige decision as well.

[Edited 2006-08-30 16:22:31]
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mrocktor
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
but it's a prestige decision as well

I'd say political, otherwise agreed.

mrocktor
 
Rainmaker
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:55 pm

Hopefully the chinese airport operator get to regulate airport taxes and levies in a more suitable way for small jets operators. AFAIK taxes are not proportional to aircraft size making small jets overall economics very disadvantageous in mainland China.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:58 pm

Embraer better find ways to increases production or loose future orders to Bombardier who today have released their dried up backlog.

TW
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lowecur
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:30 am

Roctor:

This will certainly help to fill up delivery slots for the 190 well into 2008. What's ERJ doing to rectify production capacity in the next few years. Anticipated orders from NWA and DL in the coming year could be hurt if they can't give assurances on a viable delivery schedule. Also, I still believe WN is going to have discussions with pilots about the Ejets for the new TA next month.

Give us an update.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:29 am

Congratulations Embraer, nice order and it allows to keep ERJ145 line working for sometime as well as increase their backlog for the E-Jets.

I agree with some friends, Embraer need to find how to increase production in order to open new production slots. I believe they imagine it's just a good economic cycle, but it seems to take more time, and Embraer need to take advantage.

Felipe
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MEA-707
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:49 am

Their orderbook isn't actually THAT impressive, I checked the list on airlinerlist.com and it should be perfectly doable to get slots within 12 months or so. Blinded by the big Jetblue order you'd think there is a backlog of 1000s but all types combined, 170/175 have only 80 yet to be delivered against 140 built so far, and the 190/195 have 230 to be delivered against 40 built so far, not counted the Hainan order yet. Not bad, figures Canadair/Bombardier can only dream of, but not as spectacular as the 737 and A-320 families.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
planemaker
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 5):
I'd say political, otherwise agreed.

Yes, I agree. You might be interested in this article from the BBC about China and Brazil's growing economic ties...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4872522.stm

There is a short paragraph about EMB...

In Brazil itself, the view is very different. It is about two developing countries, the giants of their regions, forming a natural alliance.

"It's wonderful. It's amazing," says Alexandre Solis, an aircraft engineer who spent more than two years in the Chinese city of Harbin, setting up a joint venture for the ultra hi-tech Brazilian Embraer commuter jet company.

"They wanted all the information we could give them because they are determined to be best in the world."


There is also a link to an 11 minute video and it has a short segment on Harbin (around the 7:30 minute mark).

BTW, this was a double bad news day for BBD. BBD announced today that their 2nd Qtr. earnings dropped 50% vs a year ago.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
nice order and it allows to keep ERJ145 line working for sometime

See...

Quoting Mrocktor (Thread starter):
The ERJ-145 will be produced by Embraer's chinese joint venture Harbin Embraer Aircraft Industry
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
mrocktor
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 8):
Anticipated orders from NWA and DL in the coming year could be hurt if they can't give assurances on a viable delivery schedule

Current backlog (from the www.embraer.com site):

E170 33
E175 3
E190 220 (+50 now)
E195 36 (I'd say -15 from the Swiss order)

A total of 277 firm orders, about 2 years worth of production at current delivery rates (glossing over the fact that the ~150 AC/year of the last years were a mix of 145 and E-jets).

I don't have any special information on the company's strategic planning (and wouldn't post if I did) but my guess is that the brazillian facilities will be almost totally converted to E-jet production, as the 145 family backlog is for all purposes zero. The production line will probably be kept open for the military and business variants of the plane only (about 3 frames per month?), plus the chinese line for their order(s) of course.

mrocktor
 
planemaker
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 12):
Quoting Lowecur (Reply 8):
Anticipated orders from NWA and DL in the coming year could be hurt if they can't give assurances on a viable delivery schedule

It shouldn't be a problem. Don't forget that the 50 E190 deliveries for HNA are planned to start only in Dec 2007... 15 months from now. And back in April, EMB already announced plans to increase E190/195 production to 8/month by mid-2007. EMB had good foresight to have encouraged risk-sharing suppliers to set up local facilities. Sonaca has created a local subsidiary Sobraex. And EMB has taken control over wing manufacturing from KHI's at Kawasaki Aeronautica do Brasil based at Embraer’s Gaviao Peixoto plant.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
lowecur
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 12):
A total of 277 firm orders, about 2 years worth of production at current delivery rates (glossing over the fact that the ~150 AC/year of the last years were a mix of 145 and E-jets).

I think Republic changed 25 of the 170s to 175s. There are also quite a few options that could be exercized at some pt.

I read somewhere that the Ejet is not a pure production line, but rather units are built in some sort of production box. Scaling the 145 to this type of production could take a major retrofit.
 
lowecur
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 13):
It shouldn't be a problem. Don't forget that the 50 E190 deliveries for HNA are planned to start only in Dec 2007... 15 months from now. And back in April, EMB already announced plans to increase E190/195 production to 8/month by mid-2007. EMB had good foresight to have encouraged risk-sharing suppliers to set up local facilities. Sonaca has created a local subsidiary Sobraex. And EMB has taken control over wing manufacturing from KHI's at Kawasaki Aeronautica do Brasil based at Embraer’s Gaviao Peixoto plant.

I hope you're right. The company needs to be more proactive on facilities. I think they feel the production slots on any large American Order can be put off for 12 months(pilot training), and during that time they will do the retrofits to the former RJ facilities. This type of thinking cost them initial US Air orders on the 170 that went to BBD. Things are pretty tight right now, as AC has agreed to give up 190 production slots to Varig to help their investment.
 
mrocktor
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:16 am

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 14):

I read somewhere that the Ejet is not a pure production line, but rather units are built in some sort of production box. Scaling the 145 to this type of production could take a major retrofit.

It's not a matter of scaling the 145 line to build E-jets, rather using the physical space and workforce previously engaged in 145 production to build E-jets. And yes, its a major change  Wink

mrocktor
 
Aleksandar
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:02 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 10):
Not bad, figures Canadair/Bombardier can only dream of, but not as spectacular as the 737 and A-320 families.

Unfortunately, high fuel prices has a lot to do with that. These days are not so good for regional jets compared to late 1990s.
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting Rainmaker (Reply 6):
AFAIK taxes are not proportional to aircraft size making small jets overall economics very disadvantageous in mainland China.

Actually, that rules applies to China and most of Asia in general. An RJ is classified as a jet thus the higher user fee bracket. Of course, there are gross weight brackets but not very proportional, so that's the reason you don't see a lot of RJs in East Asia.

Perhaps China is getting little more relaxed about user fees in the lightweight jet range but ATC will continually have to attain efficiency as traffic is booming. With China it may not be the lack of runways but ATC procedures that become gridlocked first.
 
PavlovsDog
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:51 pm

I guess this means that the Chinese ARJ is dead. That is pretty much the exact same size as the ERJ-190.
 
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keesje
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:30 pm

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 12):
Current backlog (from the www.embraer.com site):

E170 33
E175 3
E190 220 (+50 now)
E195 36 (I'd say -15 from the Swiss order)

Didn't know the market shows such a clear preference for the E190 compared to the other versions. Obviously the best compromise between CASM, range and capasity.

There isn't much competition in the 100 seat segment, Embraer is king of the hill.

http://www.achorizons.ca/gallery/2004/january/embraer_190_1024.jpg
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Tangowhisky
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:19 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 20):
Embraer is king of the hill.

And Embraer is now entering into the large business jet market with the E-190 (Lineage 1000). This plane is bigger and wider than a Bombardier Global Express and G550, but only has 4200 nm range versus 6500 nm of the G550 and GXRS. I wonder if Embraer is thinking of putting in an all new wing on the 190 for a true business jet version with 7000 nm or more? I hear Gulfstream are secretely working on an new plane as well. All this is not good for Bombardier as they are being threatenned by Embraer haevily in the RJ market, and now more competition in the business jet market.
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planemaker
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 21):
I wonder if Embraer is thinking of putting in an all new wing on the 190 for a true business jet version with 7000 nm or more?

Curious, why do you think that the Lineage isn't a "true" business jet? BTW, the very long range market is actually quite small. The development of the GX was really an "ego" move on the part of BBD to "one-up" the GIV. And then Gulfstream responded with the GV. Furthermore, BBD ended up having to shrink the GX and reduce its range to compete with Gulfstream's G400/500 lineup. It is quite indicative of the small size of the market niche that Dassault didn't even bother to match the GX's range with their all-new 7X.
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Tangowhisky
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 22):
Curious, why do you think that the Lineage isn't a "true" business jet? BTW, the very long range market is actually quite small. The development of the GX was really an "ego" move on the part of BBD to "one-up" the GIV. And then Gulfstream responded with the GV. Furthermore, BBD ended up having to shrink the GX and reduce its range to compete with Gulfstream's G400/500 lineup. It is quite indicative of the small size of the market niche that Dassault didn't even bother to match the GX's range with their all-new 7X.

Planemaker, I agree with what you are saying and that the bigger pie is in the mid size, widebody long range (not the ultra long range). However, a plane in that size is comfortable to go longer distances, and more range will help sales in that market segment. Boeing's push on the 777-200LR, 737-800ER and -900ER for more range are confirmation that there is a need for more and more non-stop: commercial or corporate aviation needs. Bombardier GXRS sales are still strong as ever despite shrinking this model and making the GX 5000 (this is another market and more sales). However, Embraer has the ability to quickly engineer things and along with their lower development costs, I believe that they are on the path with the desire to out-do Bombardier.
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lowecur
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 21):
I wonder if Embraer is thinking of putting in an all new wing on the 190 for a true business jet version with 7000 nm or more?

If they can gain that kind of range with a new wing, why not bring it on the commercial end? Hasn't the 737 been tweaked over the years with NG engines and wing design to increase range? It sure sounds doable as technology continues to improve.

[Edited 2006-08-31 17:59:44]
 
planemaker
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 23):
Boeing's push on the 777-200LR, 737-800ER and -900ER for more range are confirmation that there is a need for more and more non-stop: commercial or corporate aviation needs.

There isn't any correlation between commercial aviation and business aviation. And the 737ER models are just to guarantee transcontinental flights in all winds. And, as I pointed out, Dassault did not even bother to match the GX's range because there just is not really a requirement for that ultra long range. The average GX flight is under 4 hours - I'm not kidding.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 23):
However, Embraer has the ability to quickly engineer things and along with their lower development costs, I believe that they are on the path with the desire to out-do Bombardier.

But the economics of a new wing for the Lineage is simply not cost effective and a waste of precious R&D dollars since the ultra long range niche is not only already too crowded with BBD, Gulfstream and Boeing... but the range requirement is actually rarely used.

If you look at where EMB is investing its resources it is at the very opposite end of the ultra long range market... with two VLJ models. Of course they are competitors but EMB is driven by profitability and not to out-do BBD - though that very well may eventually happen with the way things are going at BBD.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 24):
If they can gain that kind of range with a new wing, why not bring it on the commercial end? Hasn't the 737 been tweaked over the years with NG engines and wing design to increase range? It sure sounds doable as technology continues to improve.

I agree with you. Operators such as MaxJet and PrivatAir can use a plane like that in thinner high yield markets. Today they are operating between large metro city pairs, but a plane like that could open markets between smaller city pairs with high yield pax like PHI-BRU.
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PPVRA
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:27 am

Well over time Embraer has introduced many updates to the ERJs, which have improved performance, so I am sure they will do the same for the E-Jets (+ L1000).

Maybe ultra long range is too much but for the size of the aircraft (considering possible govt. VIP roles and military variants), adding a few extra miles couldn't hurt.

However, I don't see a whole new wing or anything of that magnitude being developed (too expensive). Just a gutt feeling, though  Smile

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Devilfish
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 21):
I wonder if Embraer is thinking of putting in an all new wing on the 190 for a true business jet version with 7000 nm or more?



Quoting Lowecur (Reply 24):
If they can gain that kind of range with a new wing, why not bring it on the commercial end?

If this is all that easily accomplished, I wonder why Embraer has not come up with a long-range E170 business jet instead of the Lineage? Being smaller, it would naturally be cheaper and more attractive to buyers, wouldn't it?
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We're Nuts
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 8):
Also, I still believe WN is going to have discussions with pilots about the Ejets for the new TA next month.

Dear moderators: No.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: HNA Orders 50 ERJ-145, 50 E190

Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:00 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 28):
If this is all that easily accomplished, I wonder why Embraer has not come up with a long-range E170 business jet instead of the Lineage? Being smaller, it would naturally be cheaper and more attractive to buyers, wouldn't it?

The 170 has similar range as an airliner to the 190 (approx 2200 nm at design payload). I believe Embraer chose the 190 as the Lineage 1000 over the 170 for a compellingly better cabin than the GX and G550, and be closer to the BBJ and ACJ. Going forward, one option would be try and fit the larger E-190 wing onto the E-170. This is like the BBJ which has a 737-700 fuse, but a -800 wing for the extra range. But it is still a low speed wing designed to cruise at Mach .79. A faster and larger wing capable at cruising at Mach .85 and far greater range would make it killer ultra long range business aircraft having a huge cabin and the longest legs, and would not be a traffic problem at higher speeds on the tracks. Bombardier, Airbus, Boeing, and Gulfstream are enjoying this market segment with plenty of room for everyone. Why not one more? My bet is that now that the 195 is certified, and once the Phenom's are designed, Embraer will need to keep their engineers busy. Since Boeing will not launch a 737 replacement for another 5-10 years, Embraer can be the king in this market. Designing a new wing is far less expensive than a new fuselage. Boeing 737NG is an example of this. The Global Express fuselage is the same barrel as the original Challenger, CRJs (8 ft 10 inches). Airbus used the same fuse as the A300 to make the A310, A330, and A340. Making an all new wing by Embraer is a not a major cost item.
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