swaguy27
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How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:57 am

At this point the airline has done everything they can to ruin any relationship with any of it's unions finally one group is not stepping down. I think they should be allowed to strike and if the airline goes under that is on the shoulders of the guys that are making six figures a year while they are nickel and diming there employees . I' m sure those mastermindas that screwed thing up at nwa will be hired at another one of the big six to help them screw things up even more }example pan am eastern twa and almost at one time continental. Please don't ever say it is the employees fault they are standing up for what is wright it is the greed of corportate america.
 
charlienorth
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:13 am

More like 7 figures,seems to me if NWA can impose a contract the fa's should be able to go the route of self help under The RLA.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:19 am

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 1):
seems to me if NWA can impose a contract the fa's should be able to go the route of self help under The RLA.

,,especially since each flight attendant becomes an "at-will" employee the moment the original contract is tossed out - so they're free to walk out individually at any time.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:42 am

Not to dredge up the other thread on this, but I thought the point wasn't to say they couldn't strike, but to say they must wait to strike until the judge rules on the clarity of the situation (as it relates to being in BK, etc.)

In other words, they may very well be able to strike soon, but after the judge reviews the situation more.

Don't flame me - I'm not picking a side, just interpreting what I thought I heard.

-Dave
-Dave
 
justplanenutz
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting Swaguy27 (Thread starter):
if the airline goes under....

Keep in mind that other stakeholders in bankruptcy don't get to sink the ship if they don't like their prospects during reorganization. Debtors can't at will repossess their collateral and sink the ship, vendors can't at will terminate their contracts and sink the ship, landlords can't at will evict tenants and sink the ship (despite very clear language in contracts that terminates leases upon bankruptcy filings). The very nature of bankruptcy is the court imposing terms upon stakeholders less favorable than what had been agreed and not allowing them to bring the company down.

Employees have one right no other stakeholder does--they can simply wash their hands of the company and take another job whenever they darn well please. Now, if they all decide to do that on the same day....
 
jwenting
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:04 pm

I hope the courts prevent the unions from destroying the airline.
All depends on the judge of course, if it's a leftist he'll be all too happy to help his socialist brothers.
I wish I were flying
 
co/ba
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:08 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 3):
Not to dredge up the other thread on this, but I thought the point wasn't to say they couldn't strike, but to say they must wait to strike until the judge rules on the clarity of the situation (as it relates to being in BK, etc.)

I am no lawyer but that is the way I interpreted it as well. I do hope that the employees will be given thier right to strike so that both sides get a fair deal. Unfortunately I think the court will side with managment.
 
justplanenutz
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:16 pm

Quoting Co/ba (Reply 6):
I do hope that the employees will be given their right to strike so that both sides get a fair deal.

Again, other stakeholders don't get the right to withhold whatever it is they contracted for (planes, gates, gas, mx) to get a "fairer" deal. Nothing about bankruptcy is really fair to those getting their deals retraded.

Oh, and let's observe a moment of silence for NWA stockholders. They got sent to the gallows on the first day. The first stock I ever bought was Braniff, so I feel their pain.

[Edited 2006-08-31 06:18:57]
 
sllevin
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:16 pm

Quoting JustPlaneNutz (Reply 4):
Keep in mind that other stakeholders in bankruptcy don't get to sink the ship if they don't like their prospects during reorganization. Debtors can't at will repossess their collateral and sink the ship, vendors can't at will terminate their contracts and sink the ship, landlords can't at will evict tenants and sink the ship (despite very clear language in contracts that terminates leases upon bankruptcy filings).

While they cannot do so at will, they can in fact go to the judge and make their case. The bottom line is that no judge will allow any bankrupt company to continue operations for very long unless he or she believes that the company can come up with a plan that will benefit stakeholders more than simply shutting the company down.

Debtors can and do petition the courts for involuntary Chapter 7 liquidation -- that is, to get judges to force companies to shut down when they ncan make a case that there's no hope of asset recovery.

Steve
 
AirRyan
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:21 pm

Quoting JustPlaneNutz (Reply 4):
Keep in mind that other stakeholders in bankruptcy don't get to sink the ship if they don't like their prospects during reorganization. Debtors can't at will repossess their collateral and sink the ship, vendors can't at will terminate their contracts and sink the ship, landlords can't at will evict tenants and sink the ship (despite very clear language in contracts that terminates leases upon bankruptcy filings). The very nature of bankruptcy is the court imposing terms upon stakeholders less favorable than what had been agreed and not allowing them to bring the company down.

Employees have one right no other stakeholder does--they can simply wash their hands of the company and take another job whenever they darn well please. Now, if they all decide to do that on the same day....

What about all the NW employees and in particular those FA's who were given NW stock which has since become worthless, where does their "input" in regards to the stockholder lie with NW management?
 
justplanenutz
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:25 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 9):
What about all the NW employees and in particular those FA's who were given NW stock which has since become worthless, where does their "input" in regards to the stockholder lie with NW management?

They bargained for their stock the same way outsiders bought theirs. My moment of silence certainly includes employee/stockholders.
 
justplanenutz
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:30 pm

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 8):
While they cannot do so at will, they can in fact go to the judge and make their case. The bottom line is that no judge will allow any bankrupt company to continue operations for very long unless he or she believes that the company can come up with a plan that will benefit stakeholders more than simply shutting the company down.

Debtors can and do petition the courts for involuntary Chapter 7 liquidation -- that is, to get judges to force companies to shut down when they ncan make a case that there's no hope of asset recovery.

All stakeholders implore the court to place their interests above those of others (including those who would prefer 7 to 11). That's the nature of the beast. But, which other stakeholders have a Plan B (i.e.--strike) if they don't like the outcome in court?
 
wjcandee
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:05 pm

What some are missing here is the following:

(1) The f/a union's bargaining team negotiated and approved an agreement with Northwest. The membership rejected it and then decertified the union. The more agitated of the folks on here said that this union, which had served the membership acceptably in the past, were incompetent. Okay fine. Whatever. Regardless, a new union then came in.

(2) The new union again negotiated and approved an agreement with NW. It was not ratified, but some 75% of the membership voted to approve it.

Given this, it's not as if the airline is somehow being "totally unreasonable". 75% of the members voted to approve the second contract that the membership's elected representatives negotiated with the airline. Now, fearful for their union positions, the f/a union leaderships rhetoric has turned extremely radical, and we'll have to have some kind of down-to-the-last-minute brinksmanship in order for the union reps to persuade the remaining 25% of the membership that this is in fact the best deal that they can get. But they have to know, deep down, that a strike is a failure by leadership, because membership usually doesn't get back enough money in the improved deal brought about by the strike to make up the money that they lost from being "unemployed" during the strike. The judge took away the leverage that the union wanted to hold the airline's family-traveler customers hostage over Labor Day weekend. In a week or so from now, the slow period will begin, and CHAOS won't be as big a threat. It will still be a threat, but a couple of cancelled flights in a slower period won't screw the other employees as badly as it would during a busier period (fewer customers to put on the remaining flights, for example).

Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail and this will all work out as best it can given the financial state of the industry.

PS All this talk about being an "at-will" employee is kind of confusing to me. An "at-will" employee is one that the employer can fire at will, not one that doesn't have to work. Any NW employee can quit tomorrow, contract or no contract. Contracts for personal services are typically not specifically enforceable, meaning that nobody can usually force anybody to work if they want to quit. However, if an employee quits, than the employer can replace the employee. The question here is whether the employee can refuse to work and nevertheless prevent the employer from permanently replacing them. "At will" typically has to do with the circumstances under which the employer can fire the employee, not whether the employee can be prevented from quitting.
 
justplanenutz
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:29 pm

I think your understanding of "at will" is correct, both in general and in employment law. At will employees and tenancies can be terminated at anytime by the employer/landlord without cause or recourse ("I don't like that tie--you're fired"). Most organized airline employees are not at will employees, and they do have recourse if terminated. Nothing however keeps the employee from quitting on a whim.

My generous use of the term when speaking about leases and debts follows the same logic--neither side can amend/revoke them at will.
 
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:34 pm

Quoting JustPlaneNutz (Reply 13):
Most organized airline employees are not at will employees, and they do have recourse if terminated.

However if the CBA is rejected BY THE CARRIER and the employees are then working without a contract - not under the old one as is usually the case under the RLA - at that point the employees ARE 'at-will' and can walk out.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
bobnwa
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 1):
More like 7 figures,seems to me if NWA can impose a contract the fa's should be able to go the route of self help under The RLA.

Please give details of NWA executives earning 7 figures.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 9):
What about all the NW employees and in particular those FA's who were given NW stock which has since become worthless

The FA's chose to receive preferred as opposed to all other employee groups who received common stock. These employees then sold their common stock as they received it at a nice profit. Not too smart on the FA's part!

I will ask again, do the FA's think they should received a smaller % cut than all the other employee groups. If so, why?
 
MattRB
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 12):
(2) The new union again negotiated and approved an agreement with NW. It was not ratified, but some 75% of the membership voted to approve it.

If 75% of the memebership voted to approve it, would that indicate that it had been, in fact, ratified?

I think you've got your facts mixed up here. I believe it was 75% of the membership abstained from voting or didn't show up and the other 25% shot down TA2.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
bucky707
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:05 pm

Quoting MattRB (Reply 16):
If 75% of the memebership voted to approve it, would that indicate that it had been, in fact, ratified?

he is right. Ratification is a simple majority vote. If 75% had voted to approve it, it would be in effect right now.

Back to the topic, I don't see how the courts can stop a strike ultimately. If Northwest is going to argue that the Railway Labor Act would prevent the FAs from striking, they cannot then say that they can impose a contract based on Bankruptcy law. The Railway Labor Act would indeed prevent the FAs from striking, but it would also prevent Northwest from imposing work rules.
 
uadc8contrail
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:24 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 5):
I hope the courts prevent the unions from destroying the airline.
All depends on the judge of course, if it's a leftist he'll be all too happy to help his socialist brothers.

J,
I hope that nwa does make it even in light of the great management team that got nwa into the mess in the first place....unions were not at fault here...
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:31 pm

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 12):
What some are missing here is the following:

(1) The f/a union's bargaining team negotiated and approved an agreement with Northwest. The membership rejected it and then decertified the union. The more agitated of the folks on here said that this union, which had served the membership acceptably in the past, were incompetent. Okay fine. Whatever. Regardless, a new union then came in.

(2) The new union again negotiated and approved an agreement with NW. It was not ratified, but some 75% of the membership voted to approve it.

Given this, it's not as if the airline is somehow being "totally unreasonable". 75% of the members voted to approve the second contract that the membership's elected representatives negotiated with the airline. Now, fearful for their union positions, the f/a union leaderships rhetoric has turned extremely radical, and we'll have to have some kind of down-to-the-last-minute brinksmanship in order for the union reps to persuade the remaining 25% of the membership that this is in fact the best deal that they can get. But they have to know, deep down, that a strike is a failure by leadership, because membership usually doesn't get back enough money in the improved deal brought about by the strike to make up the money that they lost from being "unemployed" during the strike. The judge took away the leverage that the union wanted to hold the airline's family-traveler customers hostage over Labor Day weekend. In a week or so from now, the slow period will begin, and CHAOS won't be as big a threat. It will still be a threat, but a couple of cancelled flights in a slower period won't screw the other employees as badly as it would during a busier period (fewer customers to put on the remaining flights, for example).

Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail and this will all work out as best it can given the financial state of the industry.

PS All this talk about being an "at-will" employee is kind of confusing to me. An "at-will" employee is one that the employer can fire at will, not one that doesn't have to work. Any NW employee can quit tomorrow, contract or no contract. Contracts for personal services are typically not specifically enforceable, meaning that nobody can usually force anybody to work if they want to quit. However, if an employee quits, than the employer can replace the employee. The question here is whether the employee can refuse to work and nevertheless prevent the employer from permanently replacing them. "At will" typically has to do with the circumstances under which the employer can fire the employee, not whether the employee can be prevented from quitting.

Thank you for setting the record straight. The fact is, this threat of CHAOS is a failure of union leadership, and if they are allowed to strike and they do, they will NOT be better off in the long term - "they" being the unions, the union leadership, the hardworking airline employees, et. al.
 
1rocco
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:34 pm

Quoting MattRB (Reply 16):
If 75% of the memebership voted to approve it, would that indicate that it had been, in fact, ratified?

I think you've got your facts mixed up here. I believe it was 75% of the membership abstained from voting or didn't show up and the other 25% shot down TA2.



Bingo... If 75% of the membership would have accepted it would have gone into affect. This is not rocket science but some of you seem to beat this dead horse over and over again. Remember that under AFA those who are on voluntary or involuntary furlough were not allowed to vote. That is probably about 1000-1500 f/a's. 195 million from 7500 f/a's= NO FREAKING WAY. You do the math.
 
SJC-Alien
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:41 pm

,,,All I can add here, is the climate in America today, is to 'benefit' Big Business......all of the hard work from labor Unions for many years past for our labor rights, is being killed off by greedy business corporations to make money - at our expense. Don't think for a minute that the employees helped bring NWA to where it is now. Mis-management of the Airline at NWA is a BIG BIG factor, as most employees on a day to day basis, have nothing to do with the behind the scenes management running their Airline.

SJC Alien
 
jwenting
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 18):
....unions were not at fault here...

Maybe not solely, but the automatic refusal of unions to give anything when a company and instead demand ludicrous pay increases in times of economic trouble makes them at least part responsible.
And the skyhigh union salaries airlines have to pay their staff ARE a main cause of the high operating cost and the main reason they can't reduce that cost (a lot of the rest of their cost is dictated by government requirements and things like fuel).
I wish I were flying
 
1rocco
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 22):
Maybe not solely, but the automatic refusal of unions to give anything when a company and instead demand ludicrous pay increases in times of economic trouble makes them at least part responsible.

We are not asking for ludicrous pay increases. We understand that we must take pay cuts.. We are fighting for better work rules. Many of which are no or little cost items to the company. NWA has always treated the f/a's like second class citizens. Its the "executive talent" that are in line for some hefty bonuses once we emergbe from banckruptcy. While the f/a's struggle from paycheck to paycheck to make ends meet. Being a f/'a isn't cheap. That is one thing that makes us different than the other work groups. We don't have the luxury to pack food for a 5 day trip or be home for dinner each night. To rub salt on the wound nwa has taken away crew meals and water. 16-18 hr duty days with no food or water. Many times there is no time with delays and abnormal operations to even get a burger from Mc'd. They are just punishing us for not rolling over and playing dead. Who ever told you we are looking for ludicrous pay increase needs a drug test now.
 
ASFlyer
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 12):
(2) The new union again negotiated and approved an agreement with NW. It was not ratified, but some 75% of the membership voted to approve it

No, 75% of the membership did NOT vote to approve it. Had that been the case, the second TA would have been what they were now working under.
 
smokescreen
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:51 am

Quoting JustPlaneNutz (Reply 11):
All stakeholders implore the court to place their interests above those of others (including those who would prefer 7 to 11). That's the nature of the beast. But, which other stakeholders have a Plan B (i.e.--strike) if they don't like the outcome in court?

Just out of curiosity, what happens if a vendor (eg. catering company, fuel supplier etc.) decides to cut off its services due to a fear of non-payment from a Ch. 11 airline? Is this allowed under Ch. 11 rules, and if not what are the legal remedies against the vendor?
 
ASFlyer
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 22):
Maybe not solely, but the automatic refusal of unions to give anything when a company and instead demand ludicrous pay increases in times of economic trouble makes them at least part responsible.
And the skyhigh union salaries airlines have to pay their staff ARE a main cause of the high operating cost and the main reason they can't reduce that cost (a lot of the rest of their cost is dictated by government requirements and things like fuel).

Show me where either PFAA or AFA demanded "ludicrous pay increases". All along, both unions have shown their willingness to work with the company to offer relief and help to create a succesful new company once out of bankruptcy. EVERY F/A knows that this means a pay cut of some sort and work rule changes. Nobody disputes that and VERY, VERY few are against the idea given the climate in the industry. It's the extent of what management is asking for that most F/A's at NWA are against, and the lack of a viable business plan that still offers meaningful jobs in the end.

Do you realize that beginning FA's start at around 15-20K per year? To further that, new FA's qualify for state and federal assistance. Do you realize that after putting in 40 years of work for an airline, you can look forward to making around 50-60K a year as a FA? How is that a sky high salary? And, you know, FA's go into this job understanding that they aren't going to get rich, but when the airlines want to come in and take away our ability to even support ourselves and our families on what we make after we've given years and years of our lives then they are just being unreasonable. What they need to do is pass the costs of operating a business on to the consumer for a change and let them pay for their own airline ticket instead of subsidizing their tickets on the backs of the employees. People aren't going to stop flying. They'll still fly.
 
AirRyan
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:18 am

Interesting article about the precedent of this particular case...

Quote:
Northwest Air case tests union right to strike

By Kyle Peterson
2 hours, 12 minutes ago



An imminent court decision on Northwest Airlines (Other OTC:NWACQ - news) flight attendants' right to strike could disrupt the carrier's restructuring and also change how the entire industry negotiates with its union employees.

Both airlines and organized labor are eagerly anticipating the ruling from the U.S. District Court. The decision could be a step toward settling a long dispute between unions and carriers that see bankruptcy as a risk-free way to cut labor costs.

Northwest, the No. 5 U.S. airline, has asked the court to block a strike threatened by the Association of Flight Attendants, which believes its right to take job action was triggered in July when the airline voided its labor contract with the permission of a bankruptcy court judge.

"If the court were to hold that the flight attendants' strike was lawful, and if that ruling were to be upheld on appeal, it would certainly change the dynamic of bargaining in the airline industry," said Willis Goldsmith at the Jones Day law firm. Formerly chairman of Jones Day's labor and employment law practice, Goldsmith represented management.

It is fairly common in airline bankruptcies for carriers to ask permission to void contracts of unions that do not make requested concessions. Other major airlines, however, have resolved these disputes before any court decisions.

UAL Corp. (Nasdaq:UAUA - news), parent of United Airlines, for example, twice asked a bankruptcy court to allow it to cancel contracts. The carrier, however, reached its savings target in the shadow of various strike threats, heading off a judge's ruling.

As a result, all eyes are on Northwest, since this would be the first test of whether a union can legally strike against an airline that has abrogated its contract with permission from a bankruptcy judge.

A ruling in the AFA's favor would set a legal precedent with sweeping implications for any carrier or union involved in labor disputes during bankruptcy, said airline consultant Robert Mann.

"This would represent a big change from managements' presumption so far," Mann said. "My hope would be that it results in more intense bargaining to a consensual solution."

DUELING ARGUMENTS

Northwest contends a flight attendants' strike would violate the Railway Labor Act, which safeguards interstate commerce. The law says airlines and unions must be released from formal mediation before the workers are free to strike. The AFA says Northwest effectively ended mediation by voiding the contract.

U.S. District Judge Victor Marrero is expected to rule on the matter soon, but no definite date is set. A bankruptcy judge previously declined to block the strike, saying the matter was not within his jurisdiction.

The contract termination and subsequent union standoff tests a contention by Northwest and other airlines that a company may void a labor contract with court approval and still enjoy protection from retaliatory strikes.

If Marrero agrees, permanently blocking job action, it would essentially strip the AFA -- and other unions -- of a key defense against corporate cost-cutting.

Northwest, which filed for bankruptcy in September, has said it needed $1.4 billion in average annual labor savings to survive. The carrier has called on the flight attendants to concede $195 million of that amount.

The airline reached its total savings target in July through consensual deals with its other unions and by unilaterally imposing a new contract on the flight attendants, which had twice rejected deals negotiated by union leaders.

WAITING FOR A RULING

The AFA had set a strike deadline for last Friday, but Marrero granted Northwest a preliminary injunction, saying he needed more time to consider the matter.

The union was threatening small, intermittent strikes rather than a mass walkout.

The judge encouraged the two sides to resume negotiations and asked for a status update on Wednesday. The union and Northwest each say they are willing to talk, but formal negotiations had not resumed as of Thursday morning.

The AFA told Marrero in a letter on Wednesday that there was little possibility of meaningful negotiations with the airline.

Northwest submitted a letter saying it "stands willing and able" to resume negotiations. The carrier said it was preparing new proposals for the AFA and was willing to consider any from the union.

Marrero may refrain from issuing a definitive ruling. If he does, the decision would probably be appealed, said Damon Silvers, associate general counsel at the AFL-CIO union coalition.

"A wide variety of things could happen next," Silvers said. "You could see an appeal. You could see a resolution of the underlying issues."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060831/bs_nm/airlines_northwest_strike_dc
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 24):
Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 12):
(2) The new union again negotiated and approved an agreement with NW. It was not ratified, but some 75% of the membership voted to approve it

No, 75% of the membership did NOT vote to approve it. Had that been the case, the second TA would have been what they were now working under.

What he meant to say..I am sure..is that 75% either voted for the second tenative agreement or did not vote. Only 25% voted to turn it down. One-quarter of the union is dictating to the other three-fourths it appears

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 26):
Show me where either PFAA or AFA demanded "ludicrous pay increases". All along, both unions have shown their willingness to work with the company to offer relief and help to create a succesful new company once out of bankruptcy.

Yes, the duly appointed bargaining units did work with the company. But the membership did not support either unions' leaadership and created the turmoil we are in. Union shopping is the major issue here and the flight attendants need to take responsibility for changing..as Wjcandee points out...perfectly acceptable ELECTED union leadership in mid stream. It's interesting how this ELECTED leadership all of a sudden got stupid after years of being acceptable.
 
ikramerica
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 3):
Not to dredge up the other thread on this, but I thought the point wasn't to say they couldn't strike, but to say they must wait to strike until the judge rules on the clarity of the situation (as it relates to being in BK, etc.)

exactly. it's been less than a week. the f/as aren't going to go broke individually during that period, but if they struck the airline could have. thus the temporary order. but it won't last.

as for nw ruing it's relationship, last time I checked, they negotiated TWO new contracts in good faith with union leadership, twice voted down by the rank and file. Is it NWA's fault that the union leadership doesn't represent it's rank and file? Only in the mind of a union hack...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
1rocco
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 28):
What he meant to say..I am sure..is that 75% either voted for the second tenative agreement or did not vote. Only 25% voted to turn it down. One-quarter of the union is dictating to the other three-fourths it appears

Well there were about 1500 who could not vote. Anyone who was VF or IVF was not eligable to vote. The way I see it is if you had cancer you would want to have the best insurance possible. AFA was our best insurance. PFAA was near bankruptcy. They had no money. They had no clue what they were doing when it came to negotiating and the proof was TA1. We had no choice but to vote in a union that was strong and had experience with bankruptcy. AFA has lots of that. Get over the union swapping crap. That is not the reason we are where we are today. PFAA is to blame for a lot of this. AFA offered there service to PFAA months ago with no strings attached. Guy Meek would not accept there help. BTW TVNWZ you wouldn't possibly be bitter ex Pfaa officer are you?? You sure sound like it.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:27 am

Quoting 1rocco (Reply 30):
Well there were about 1500 who could not vote. Anyone who was VF or IVF was not eligable to vote. The way I see it is if you had cancer you would want to have the best insurance possible. AFA was our best insurance. PFAA was near bankruptcy. They had no money. They had no clue what they were doing when it came to negotiating and the proof was TA1. We had no choice but to vote in a union that was strong and had experience with bankruptcy. AFA has lots of that. Get over the union swapping crap. That is not the reason we are where we are today. PFAA is to blame for a lot of this. AFA offered there service to PFAA months ago with no strings attached. Guy Meek would not accept there help. BTW TVNWZ you wouldn't possibly be bitter ex Pfaa officer are you?? You sure sound like it

What does the incompetence of the NW unions have to do with NW management?
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
bobnwa
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting 1rocco (Reply 30):
AFA was our best insurance. PFAA was near bankruptcy. They had no money. They had no clue what they were doing when it came to negotiating and the proof was TA1.

Is TA2 the proof that AFA had no clue what it was doing? Do you think that the FA's are being asked to take larger % cuts than the other groups or the same?
 
1rocco
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 32):
Is TA2 the proof that AFA had no clue what it was doing? Do you think that the FA's are being asked to take larger % cuts than the other groups or the same?

OH Bob.. Atleast the rest of the groups have scheduled meal breaks. It is not as much the % as it is the work rules most of which are no or Low cost items.. Can you understand that?? NWA is punishing the f/a's and I hope that the judge can see this.
 
nwa744tpa
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:21 am

The TA1 was crafted from surveys given to the FA group years before when a normal negotiation was expected plus the new dollar amount from NWA ($195 million). I believe the PFAA originally had good intentions in trying to prevent NWA from completely throwing out the ENTIRE contract early on. As it became obvious that NWA was now in the position of getting the exact dollar amount it wanted and the PFAA was perilously low on cash available to fight it, they published TA1. It became apparent that PFAA would not be financially able to withstand this onslaught for long, and the FA's lost confidence in PFAA's ability to fight NWA.
TA2 is basically TA1 with some minor alterations. The AFA had 10 days to alter TA1 into a form they hoped would be acceptable for ratification. They made their alterations of TA1 based on feedback from FA's but there was only a very tight timeline to work with, and the AFA made the best proposal they could given the 10 days available for the scheduled vote. The AFA did not have the luxury of starting from scratch and negotiating a contract section by section. The fact that it failed 55%against/45%for is a credit to the AFA to make it more acceptable than the TA1 which failed 80%against/20%for.
I believe it will take a few minor alterations to reach a passing ratification vote. NWA, however, has decided to pursue a litigation strategy instead. Now that they are reaching their $195 million target, I don't believe they are motivated to make a deal. In fact, by implementing the obviously substandard PFAA endorsed TA1, they plan to use that as a template for future negotiations. If the judge decides that the FA's DO have the right to strike, I expect NWA to quickly change their bargaining strategy to seal a deal right away to prevent long-term customer impact. Right now, all they have to do is wait while they continue to exploit the maximum value out of the TA1.
 
ikramerica
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting Nwa744tpa (Reply 34):
I believe it will take a few minor alterations to reach a passing ratification vote. NWA, however, has decided to pursue a litigation strategy instead.

But how many times is a company required to negotiate a contract with union leadership before they get tired and see it as stall tactic, a stall tactic that is costing NW money and it's financial future?

I work out a deal with you to sell you my boat that you agree to. You talk to your spouse, he/she says no. I work out another deal, you talk to your spouse, he/she says no. Is the third time a charm? How do I know. I just know that either your spouse is unreasonable or you don't have the authority to bargain, and either way, I get fed up, because from my point of view, inaction is costing me money.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
1rocco
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:09 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 35):
I work out a deal with you to sell you my boat that you agree to. You talk to your spouse, he/she says no. I work out another deal, you talk to your spouse, he/she says no. Is the third time a charm? How do I know. I just know that either your spouse is unreasonable or you don't have the authority to bargain, and either way, I get fed up, because from my point of view, inaction is costing me money.

Yep.. If that what it takes to sell your boat that's what needs to be done.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:15 am

Quoting 1rocco (Reply 36):
Yep.. If that what it takes to sell your boat that's what needs to be done.

That is the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time...

You sell your boat to someone who is serious about buying it.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
ASFlyer
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:10 am

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 28):
Yes, the duly appointed bargaining units did work with the company. But the membership did not support either unions' leaadership and created the turmoil we are in. Union shopping is the major issue here and the flight attendants need to take responsibility for changing..as Wjcandee points out...perfectly acceptable ELECTED union leadership in mid stream. It's interesting how this ELECTED leadership all of a sudden got stupid after years of being acceptable

The membership did not support PFAA for many reasons, one being that PFAA gave the company massive paycuts and horrendous work rule changes without even polling the membership to see if it was acceptable. The membership never even got to vote on the concessions that they initially took, their leadership just gave them away. They lost faith in their union for many other reasons as well, not the least of which is that they were broke - completely, flat out broke. FA's at NWA realized that they needed different representation before the bankruptcy and concessions even started, those things just put it all into high gear. There was no "union shopping" going on, as you say, simply to find someone to root out more money. The campaign to bring NWA FA's into AFA was going on long before the roof caved in on them. That all just kicked the campaign into high gear. If anything, AFA siezed that opportunity to move in and represent the NWA FA's.

The membership turning down the second TA is not a sign that they don't support their leadership - it is simply a sign that they think the company is asking for too much and they were not interested in giving back as much as they were being asked for. It's every members right to vote no on a tentative agreement and, when that happens, leadership is to carry out the memberships wishes and go back to the table and renegotiate something more acceptable. The leadership endorsed this last TA because they knew that it was that or the inevitable, which we witness now.


You go on about the "elected" leadership and how the FA's elected them and then you act as though the membership turned their backs on their elected leaders. How about looking at it as the elected leaders turning their backs on those that elected them? That would be more appropriate.
 
ASFlyer
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:11 am

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 28):
What he meant to say..I am sure..is that 75% either voted for the second tenative agreement or did not vote. Only 25% voted to turn it down. One-quarter of the union is dictating to the other three-fourths it appears

How do you know what he meant to say? He clearly said that 75% of the membership voted FOR the last TA and that is not the case.
 
ASFlyer
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting 1rocco (Reply 30):
BTW TVNWZ you wouldn't possibly be bitter ex Pfaa officer are you?? You sure sound like it.

That hadn't even occured to me, but it sure makes A LOT of sense.
 
ASFlyer
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:14 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 31):
What does the incompetence of the NW unions have to do with NW management?

It's because of the incompetence of the NWA management that any of the NWA employees are faced with these decisions in the first place.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 41):
It's because of the incompetence of the NWA management that any of the NWA employees are faced with these decisions in the first place.

Last time I checked, pay cuts and bankruptcy are not unique in the airline industry currently, and over the past few years.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
ASFlyer
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:06 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 42):
Last time I checked, pay cuts and bankruptcy are not unique in the airline industry currently, and over the past few years

No, they are basically unique to airlines with incompetent management. Care to explain how Alaska, American, Continental, Southwest, Skywest, Mesa, AirTran and the likes managed to NOT file bankruptcy?
 
ejmmsu
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:22 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 43):
No, they are basically unique to airlines with incompetent management. Care to explain how Alaska, American, Continental, Southwest, Skywest, Mesa, AirTran and the likes managed to NOT file bankruptcy?

Skywest, Mesa, et. al. are doing fine because most of their flying is fee for departure, so they are guaranteed a profit. They also pay wages that make the current NW FA contract look very good.

Airtran and WN have a business plan where they only serve the "low hanging fruit" of the airline industry. Want to fly MDW-RDU or ATL-DFW? Lots of people do.. so its easy to fill up a mainline jet with minimal connecting passengers. Want to fly GSO-TUP (i'm flying that tomorrow).. good luck getting there on FL or WN. I'm glad there are airlines like NW and DL that are trying to hang on and make it while still serving just about any market with an airport.

Alaska secured paycuts, including the complete outsourcing of their ramp at very low wages.

Continental and American also had to secure very large paycuts. You chose to disregard the "paycuts" part of my "pay cuts and bankruptcy" argument. AA was extremely close to filing for bankruptcy. CO and AA are helped because their hubs are stronger O and D markets than carriers like DL and NW... CO is also helped by the well-positioned EWR hub.

Every airline has had challenges.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
ASFlyer
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:22 pm

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 44):
Alaska secured paycuts, including the complete outsourcing of their ramp at very low wages.

Alaska secured pay cuts from their Pilots and by outsourcing their fleet and ramp personnel. This did not include a "complete" ramp outsourcing, as they still perform below the wing work at some Alaska stations. They gave pay raises to mechanics, F/A's and CSA's.

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 44):
You chose to disregard the "paycuts" part of my "pay cuts and bankruptcy" argument

I'm not disregarding that at all. You're right, most airlines, including those that did not file bankruptcy, secured pay and work rule concessions from their employee groups. The difference between the management of the airlines that did not file bankruptcy and those that did is competent management. Those that did not file bankruptcy were able to succesfully restructure while preserving value for the shareholders and decent jobs for their employees.

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 44):
Every airline has had challenges.

You're right, every airline has had their challenges. Those that had management that knew what they were doing did not have to hide behind the cloak of the bankruptcy courts, meanwhile shafting everyone including their customers, to dig their way out. Some of those airlines are having trouble even after dumping all their obligations. Southwest may not be able to take you from Tupelo to Myrtle Beach, but they manage to make money. Perhaps being everything to everyone isn't where the money is at.
 
ikramerica
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:50 pm

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 37):
You sell your boat to someone who is serious about buying it.

Exactly. Now NW doesn't have the option to "sell the boat" to someone else, but they are in BK and sure has hell do have the option of having the court impose a contract if the union is inept or isn't negotiating in good faith.

This was in fact allowed, correct? Now the right to strike because of that imposition is in question. And it isn't cut and dry, for the above reasons. NW was "reasonable" in it's negotiations by achieving TWO contracts that union representatives agreed to. Inept management or not, that's all they are responsible to do. They aren't in the business of saying: "here, even though you agreed to this, here's some more for shits and giggles..."

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 43):
No, they are basically unique to airlines with incompetent management. Care to explain how Alaska, American, Continental, Southwest, Skywest, Mesa, AirTran and the likes managed to NOT file bankruptcy?

As stated above, American DID have incompetent management and was within days of BK as their unions also refused to take concessions, but they got around it by dumping Carty and bringing in someone the unions respected more, and then got a 25th hour contract of MAJOR concessions to keep them out of BK.

CO was also within months of filing BK if their unions didn't agree to major cuts, just as NW unions are being asked to do. The difference is that their union representatives were able to work out a deal that the union members signed off on...

One instance was bad management replaced, the other was good management and good union leadership saving their asses.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1302
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:58 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 46):
As stated above, American DID have incompetent management and was within days of BK as their unions also refused to take concessions, but they got around it by dumping Carty and bringing in someone the unions respected more, and then got a 25th hour contract of MAJOR concessions to keep them out of BK.

CO was also within months of filing BK if their unions didn't agree to major cuts, just as NW unions are being asked to do. The difference is that their union representatives were able to work out a deal that the union members signed off on...

One instance was bad management replaced, the other was good management and good union leadership saving their asses.

At the end of the day, competent management, that fostered good employee relations, saved the companies. A novel concept, huh?
 
AASTEW
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:38 pm

AA's labor contracts were negotiated with Don Carty in office. Then after concessions were given Carty sought a bonus. Carty was dismissed then Arpey took over! That's how it went down! FYI

AASTEW
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: How Can Any Judge Step In Nwa / Fa's

Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting 1rocco (Reply 30):
We had no choice but to vote in a union that was strong and had experience with bankruptcy. AFA has lots of that.

And with AFA's experience with bankruptcy and negotiating a tenative agreement the membership did not support that experience. Your problem.

Quoting 1rocco (Reply 30):
BTW TVNWZ you wouldn't possibly be bitter ex Pfaa officer are you?? You sure sound like it.

Funny. I am on the other side of the fence. I am upper management and own several companies and have unions in my companies. I have negotiated with them. I have both good/ bad relationships with them. IBEW, Teamsters. I have also, years ago I admit, belonged to a couple of unions even holding an elected position. I know inept negotiating when I see it. And this is it. When you are negotiating for your future you do not play Russian Roulette by changing unions in mid-stream. In the end it is about projecting power and control. The FAs are projecting no power, and appear to be out of control.

It is an impossible situation when the duly appointed negotiating team does not have the power to get the tenative agreement passed. When you combine that with the fact there are two seperate TAs by two seperate unions then the company is going to stop negotiating. Why continue when the union negotiators can not deliver the goods?

I was talking to one of the IB stewards yesterday. He's an aviation buff too. One of his comments: "If we came to the table like those NW flight attendants you would have had us for lunch." I said, "Yes."

I am sorry for all your past problems. I am sorry you suck at electing union officials. I am sorry you are not watching the union finances. I am sorry the company is in bankruptcy. I am sorry you think management sucks. I am sorry you have a crappy life. But, when it comes down to this particular situation, you--THE MEMBERSHIP--have blown it. Big time. Stand up and take responsibility.

Quoting 1rocco (Reply 33):

OH Bob.. Atleast the rest of the groups have scheduled meal breaks.

OH rocco..From my view on many NW flights you get plenty of time to bitc..err..eat. And from the looks of many of you, nobody is starving.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 35):
work out a deal with you to sell you my boat that you agree to. You talk to your spouse, he/she says no. I work out another deal, you talk to your spouse, he/she says no. Is the third time a charm? How do I know. I just know that either your spouse is unreasonable or you don't have the authority to bargain, and either way, I get fed up, because from my point of view, inaction is costing me money.

 yes 

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 38):
The membership did not support PFAA for many reasons,

Reasons don't matter. You should have thought of that before you started negotiations. Your problem.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 38):
the membership turning down the second TA is not a sign that they don't support their leadership

Yes it is. This is not a game. It is serious and your very existance is on the line. To just willy-nilly throw a contract out there is INEXCUSABLE. it would have been better to not come to agreement than to have the new union leadership made to look powerless to the company. Nieve.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 38):
You go on about the "elected" leadership and how the FA's elected them and then you act as though the membership turned their backs on their elected leaders. How about looking at it as the elected leaders turning their backs on those that elected them? That would be more appropriate.

Okay, I'll look at it that way. You win this one. But, it is still YOUR PROBLEM. The REASONS really do not matter ---except for stimulating debate on this board --- the ultimate responsiblity is with the membership. You ELECTED them.

Standup and take responsibility.

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