skibum9
Posts: 862
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Why All The 5191 Speculation And Not Others

Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:29 pm

OK, I have been observing all the A.Net activity around Comair 5191. There is something like 8 or 9 different threads, with the main thread up to its 5th iteration. I am not minimizing the magnitude of this event, nor do I lack sympathy, however I am scratching my head asking "why is there so much activity on this one particular accident and why we don't have a similar amount of activity for all the other accidents?" The most recent and larger accident was the Russian TU-154 that crashed and killed 170, yet we see significantly less interest in this larger accident on A.Net. Given that this is an international forum, don't our international (non-U.S.) brothers and sisters deserve the same level of interest, sympathy and support that the A.netters have shown to 5191. We continually say that aviation is a close community, then why are we so hypocritical when it comes to events outside the U.S. God Bless all those that have perished in accidents that have happened around the globe, and may they never be forgotten.
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jasond
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RE: Why All The 5191 Speculation And Not Others

Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:35 pm

I was thinking that exact same thing earlier today. The TU-154 accident you mention reminded me of the mid-air collision over Uberlingen, not because that was another TU-154 but because of all the kids involved. I am led to believe the latest accident also claimed the lives of many children. Thankyou for pointing this out. As tragic as any accident is there is an obvious disparity here.
 
bnamaxx
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RE: Why All The 5191 Speculation And Not Others

Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:36 pm

Could it be that there is so much obvious, initial evidence about what went wrong? When is the last time anyone heard of the FAA admitting errors were made by it's personnel? In the first week even! The combination that the plane obviously took off on the wrong runway coupled with the FAA's admissions seem to make this a slam dunk. I think they are probably trying to mitigate the damage by letting all of this out so soon.
 
redflyer
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RE: Why All The 5191 Speculation And Not Others

Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:38 pm

You bring up a valid point. However, there appears to be a lot more easy access to news surrounding the Comair crash. Four days after the crash and CNN.com still has the incident on its front webpage; just this morning reporting that the controller on duty was working on only 2 hours of sleep. The TU-154 crash disappeared from the news within a day and, as far as I could see, there were no investigative reports going on. At least not from this side of the Atlantic.
My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
 
727LOVER
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RE: Why All The 5191 Speculation And Not Others

Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Thread starter):
OK, I have been observing all the A.Net activity around Comair 5191. There is something like 8 or 9 different threads, with the main thread up to its 5th iteration. I am not minimizing the magnitude of this event, nor do I lack sympathy, however I am scratching my head asking "why is there so much activity on this one particular accident and why we don't have a similar amount of activity for all the other accidents?" The most recent and larger accident was the Russian TU-154 that crashed and killed 170, yet we see significantly less interest in this larger accident on A.Net. Given that this is an international forum, don't our international (non-U.S.) brothers and sisters deserve the same level of interest, sympathy and support that the A.netters have shown to 5191. We continually say that aviation is a close community, then why are we so hypocritical when it comes to events outside the U.S. God Bless all those that have perished in accidents that have happened around the globe, and may they never be forgotten.

I agree with you 1000%

Hell, at least there were fatalities here. What about the AF overun at YYZ? No one died, but that didn't stop, what, 6 threads on that. Hey, crashes in Africa get no attention on here.
I feel woozy....what did you put in that Pudding Pop?
 
stirling
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RE: Why All The 5191 Speculation And Not Others

Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:45 pm

Let's just say it hits close to home.

No one is disrespecting the Tu-154 crash you mention, only reacting to the release of information as it becomes available. From what I have seen concerning crashes in Russia, information is slow to make it to the press, not like the U.S. where it is instantaneous.

If members from Europe and beyond, closer to the crash, wish to post and share ideas and information, they are free to do so, nothing hypocritical. A.Net is only a reflection of the community it represents. It would be safe to say, most of A.Net has first hand knowledge of the aircraft and airline in question, while the same cannot be said of the Tu-154 and it's operator let alone the aircraft's origin/destination. Most folks here, if not intimate with Lexington, will know of Atlanta.....it is one of the largest airline hubs in the world afterall.
People respond to and discuss what they know....unfortunately, the Tu-154 crash could be placed in the "Exotic" category. We are saddened by the events, but beyond that, we can offer little else.
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bnamaxx
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RE: Why All The 5191 Speculation And Not Others

Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:47 pm

Another factor could be that this was the first major U.S. crash in awhile, and quite frankly, many American don't really care whether a Russian plane crashes. I'm not trying to be cold hearted, but if you think about it, there's some truth there. "A Russian built jet crashed? Oh ok. They crash all the time." Sorry, but that mentality does exist.
 
LGAtoIND
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RE: Why All The 5191 Speculation And Not Others

Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:50 pm

While I'm not saying its right, that is just the way things are here in the USA. The average American dosen't care what happens in Russia, Africa, South America, etc. Also, the fact that Russian airliners crash *somewhat* frequently, and that pax jet crashes are VERY rare in the US and Western Europe (not 1 since Nov 2001) adds to it. Lastly, the Comair crash is getting LOTS of news coverage here in the U.S., while I never here anything about the Russian plane crash on the news. More news means more facts being released, meaning more threads on websites like this. Again, I'm not defending this at all, its just the way things are here.
 
katekebo
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RE: Why All The 5191 Speculation And Not Others

Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:59 pm

I think the main reason is availability of information. New info on the LEX crash is continously appearing in the news, NTSB, etc. On the otherr hand, very little new information of the recent Tu-154 has been released.
 
spacecadet
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RE: Why All The 5191 Speculation And Not Others

Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Thread starter):
however I am scratching my head asking "why is there so much activity on this one particular accident and why we don't have a similar amount of activity for all the other accidents?" The most recent and larger accident was the Russian TU-154 that crashed and killed 170, yet we see significantly less interest in this larger accident on A.Net. Given that this is an international forum, don't our international (non-U.S.) brothers and sisters deserve the same level of interest, sympathy and support that the A.netters have shown to 5191.

First of all, and not to seem insensitive, but I think "sympathy" threads are pretty useless. Whenever there's a crash, there is always a thread of about 150 responses that say nothing but "RIP - my condolences to the victims' families" or some variation thereof. It's a nice sentiment but who do these people actually think is reading this site? They're saying these things to a bunch of other a.netters. It's not that I don't think we *should* pray for the victims' families, and it's not that I don't feel bad for them (reading about those honeymooners on Comair 5191 almost made me cry), I just don't much see the point in huge long threads that contain nothing but condolences to people who are never going to see them, from people that those family members don't even know.

Now, secondly, anyone is free to start whatever aviation-related topic they wish. If people want to discuss the Russian TU-154 crash, then someone can start a thread and discuss it. The problems, though, are a) there rarely seems to be much useful information that comes out of the authorities of any former Soviet-bloc countries (so not as much to discuss), and b) there don't seem to be a huge number of Russians here. It's an international site, yes, and based outside of the United States, but it still seems like most of the members that post are Americans. Still, I would talk about these international accidents if better information on them was easier to come by.

Also, major accidents in the United States are pretty rare. I hate to say it, but when there's a crash in Russia, there almost seems to be a "what else is new?" kind of attitude about it. When there's a crash in the US, people freak out. The last major accident was four years ago, and that's in a country with something like 30,000 total commercial flights per day. People want to get to the bottom of it, find out what happened, because it's not supposed to happen here. There is a confidence in our air system that's shaken whenever there's a major accident.

This may not be the most politically correct post you've ever seen here, but the truth isn't always politically correct.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
strasserb
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RE: Why All The 5191 Speculation And Not Others

Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 9):
...

Thank you, Spacecadet.
Exactly the same answer was already in my mind but I couldn't bring it into my keyboard on time due to the fact that I'm not a native English guy.
Thanx! You expressed my concerns at all!
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Rgds
Still, even in the most arid desert is an airport somewhere ...
 
airtran737
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RE: Why All The 5191 Speculation And Not Others

Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Thread starter):
OK, I have been observing all the A.Net activity around Comair 5191. There is something like 8 or 9 different threads, with the main thread up to its 5th iteration. I am not minimizing the magnitude of this event, nor do I lack sympathy, however I am scratching my head asking "why is there so much activity on this one particular accident and why we don't have a similar amount of activity for all the other accidents?" The most recent and larger accident was the Russian TU-154 that crashed and killed 170, yet we see significantly less interest in this larger accident on A.Net. Given that this is an international forum, don't our international (non-U.S.) brothers and sisters deserve the same level of interest, sympathy and support that the A.netters have shown to 5191. We continually say that aviation is a close community, then why are we so hypocritical when it comes to events outside the U.S. God Bless all those that have perished in accidents that have happened around the globe, and may they never be forgotten.

I think it has a lot to do with the fact that the majority of the members of this website are Americans. We discuss the things that have a direct impact on our lives. A former crash-pad roommate of mine named Clarence Fortney was aboard 5191 when it went down, and I have talked a lot about the crash. It isn't that we are unsympathetic to the rest of the world, it's just that we all tend to focus on things that are available to us.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
RobertS975
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RE: Why All The 5191 Speculation And Not Others

Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:25 am

I think it is the nature of this accident rather than where it happened. A perfectly good airplane was flown down a runway without lights an hour before sunrise, a runway way too short for its needs, right through the perimeter fence.

The root cause of this accident sounds so impossible, but so easy to see how this mistake could be made. The issues of confirmation bias and cockpit resource management come to the forefront.

Yeah, any incident in America or even in Europe will get more attention, but for me, it is the WHAT and not the WHERE!
 
MHO
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RE: Why All The 5191 Speculation And Not Others

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting Bnamaxx (Reply 6):
"A Russian built jet crashed? Oh ok. They crash all the time." Sorry, but that mentality does exist.

That reminds me of the time I was travelling to Paris on the TGV in 1987. The front page of the newspaper showed the crash of the Northwest Airlines DC9 in Detroit. A passenger remarked to her son that yet another american plane crashed, and added something like "it's always the americans, but never the french". Unfortunately, fate played a cruel trick in less than a year, and an Air France A320 crashed in Habsheim, France, although with a far lesser loss of life, but the pilot, F/O, 2 AF officials and the flying club's president were convicted of manslaughter and the pilot spent 6 months in jail and the others received 1 year of probation (so says Wikipedia).

So, the point is, yes that mentality does exists, but to what end? Anyone's planes can crash depending on a number of factors, and lots of pilots make mistakes regardless of nationality. Cockiness about about stuff like this is pointless and serves no one. May God have mercy on the souls that perished in these disasters.
It's better to be a little behind than a big ass
 
phxplanes
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RE: Why All The 5191 Speculation And Not Others

Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:19 pm

I pretty much agree with everyone. Its not that we dont care about accedents in other countries it just is not as big of news. Hours after the crash happened the news was already coming out with reports and ideas about what happened. This gives people something to talk about. Know one really had any info for the Russian crash so it is hard to talk about. Its not that we dont care there is just more coverage. So maybe we should ask that same question to the media.