LAXDESI
Topic Author
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:33 am

Air-India to fly non-stop to New York from April. Link:
http://www.samachar.com/showurl.htm?...-India~to~fly~non-stop~to~New~York

Quotes:
Air-India would start flying daily non-stop from New York to Mumbai from April, the airline has announced. “Mathur said the non-stop service would begin following the delivery of the state-of-the-art B777-200 LR (Long Range) from February by Boeing.

Mathur said A-I was also looking at three other American cities — Washington D.C., Houston / Dallas and San Francisco — as part of its next phase of expansion plans in US. “These operations would be eventually daily,” he said, adding the exact date of launching these operations was yet to be decided based on the delivery of the planes.

With addition of these three cities and the non-stop flight, the number of A-I flights between US and India would double from 28 to 56 eventually. It is a long way from just 10 flights some three years ago. A-I is also planning to increase the frequency of its Toronto flight from the present five days a week to daily. In the next phase of expansion, A-I is looking to start its service to Vancouver, he said.

While Continental flies between Newark and New Delhi, American operates its services from Chicago to New Delhi. Delta recently announced that it would fly non-stop from New York to Mumbai from November. Though the two non-stop flights of Continental and American are said to be flying to full capacity, an economic analysis, experts feel, is yet to be done.

The duration of the non-stop flight, would be 13 to 14 hours, as against 17-18 hours with a stopover in Europe.
 
CHIFLYGUY
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:14 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:38 am

Interesting news. What plane is DL planning to use to fly JFK-BOM? I had thought that the reason CO and AA flew to DEL was because of the lack of range of the 772-ER. Is DL actually taking delivery of LR's? How are they planning to fly it?
 
Avatordon
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:33 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:40 am

Will Air India fly from JFK or EWR?
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:53 am

DL will use the 777-200ER and they expect to be able to fly it nonstop. It will be the longest 777-200ER flight in terms of time. I'm sure it will have no cargo capacity but DL undoubtedly saw AI coming and knew they had to be in the market first or lose everything they have put into India over the past 15 years.

The same thing can be said about AI relative to Kingfisher and the other Indian new entrants.

The 777LR is the ideal plane for the market but you can't wait around for it if you don't have it or you will lose the market. Even if DL takes payload restrictions, it is better than losing the market. It says that travel to India via Europe from the US is quickly coming to an end. Bad news for BA.

[Edited 2006-09-01 02:56:22]
 
LAXDESI
Topic Author
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:55 am

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Reply 1):
Interesting news. What plane is DL planning to use to fly JFK-BOM? I had thought that the reason CO and AA flew to DEL was because of the lack of range of the 772-ER. Is DL actually taking delivery of LR's? How are they planning to fly it?

Delta will use 772ER on JFK-BOM route. I suppose range is not an issue with a reduced payload. The timings are as follows:

Depart JFK at 9:20 p.m. Arrive BOM at 10:10 p.m. Flight Duration 14.5 hours
Depart BOM at 12:10 a.m. Arrive JFK at 6.00 a.m.
 
LAXDESI
Topic Author
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting Avatordon (Reply 2):
Will Air India fly from JFK or EWR?

It would make more sense from EWR as a large immigrant community from BOM is based in New Jersey.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:59 am

As of now, DL is selling the full capacity of the aircraft - they are not planning any payload restrictions.

I think your times might be off.... at one time it was showing on delta.com as 16 1/2 hrs. I suspect DL has the times messed up due to the time changes. They've done it before. It can't be shorter than CO's EWR-DEL.
 
LAXDESI
Topic Author
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:08 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
think your times might be off.... at one time it was showing on delta.com as 16 1/2 hrs. I suspect DL has the times messed up due to the time changes. They've done it before. It can't be shorter than CO's EWR-DEL.
The timing are correct as per Delta site. The flight duration on return journey is 16 hours 20 minutes.

[Edited 2006-09-01 03:17:48]
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 200

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:08 am

SFO would be interesting...there is a massive Indian population in the Bay Area, especially in Sunnyvale, Fremont, San Jose, etc.

I think AI would clean house to SFO..

apropos, this 777-200LR flew nonstop to SFO from BOM.....granted it wasn't full of pax (there were about 45 "important" people on board), but it's was cool to see anyway.. yes 


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Jacobin777
MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Jacobin777

"Up the Irons!"
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:25 am

thanks, LAX. There's a glitch w/ delta.com. I'm pulling it up and it's giving me 15.20 in each direction.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13173
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:52 am

Quoting Avatordon (Reply 2):
Will Air India fly from JFK or EWR?

Im interested too, AI flies daily 747-400 EWR-CDG-BOM.

AI will do well with Houston and San Francisco, San Francisco needs a nonstop to Bangalore to serve the tech communities.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
BOMboy
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:45 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:55 am

Now if only AI joined Star Alliance as well.....
 
behramjee
Posts: 4323
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:39 pm

Currently AI flies to EWR with a B 744 with the routing being AMD-BOM-CDG-EWR. The reason why AMD is part of the routing is due to the EWR area having a huge concentration of Indian Gujratis.

It would be wise therefore for AI to fly 4 weekly AMD-BOM-EWR-BOM-AMD and 3 weekly BOM-EWR-BOM with their B 772LR.
 
cha747
Posts: 753
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:07 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:50 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 3):
Bad news for BA.

And Lufthansa, Emirates, KLM, Air France, Austrian, Royal Jordanian, Swiss, and a few others that offer 1-stop service through Europe or the Middle East. Wonderful news for Indian nationals coming from India who won't have to be bothered getting transit visas for the countries that require them.
You land a million planes safely, then you have one little mid-air and you never hear the end of it - Pushing Tin
 
copaair737
Posts: 3571
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:00 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:51 pm

Would AI get another 772LR to launch SFO, or will SFO be launched as a by-product of an aircraft being freed up because a NYC flight will go to a 772LR instead of the 744?

-Copa
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:36 pm

Indian nationals who have valid US or Canadian visas don't need EU transit visas anymore.

Plus, remember that having a nonstop JFK-BOM nonstop doesn't serve the interests of those who are in cities not served by a nonstop. It's a lot more convenient to fly nonstop to a European hub from any city in the US served by one of the EU carriers, and then on to India.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
himmat01
Posts: 1016
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:34 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:17 pm

People travelling from MAA, BLR or HYD would still prefer to fly via Europe on LH, AF or BA. They would not like to transit through BOM unless GVK is able to develop it into a world class hub.

AI must real get over it's BOM and DEL fixation. Or else the Govt. should let IT fly non stop from BLR/MAA to the US.
An airplane might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:27 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 15):

Plus, remember that having a nonstop JFK-BOM nonstop doesn't serve the interests of those who are in cities not served by a nonstop. It's a lot more convenient to fly nonstop to a European hub from any city in the US served by one of the EU carriers, and then on to India.

I agree..however, I think this route would do well just on O&D alone....also, AA's ORD-DEL doesn't have the best connection time in DEL either but the route is doing very well..

....I've been planning to go back to India via AA to visit some relatives and the 9:35 p.m. arrival time basically has no connecting flights...

a potential (operative word) problem I see is the uncles and aunties not wanting to sit on a plane for such a long period of time...however, given that its not too much more than ORD/EWR-DEL, hopefully it won't be a problem...of course, one never knows with aunties and uncles...

"nah baboo...dont vant to sit in the plane for that long.."  spin 
"Up the Irons!"
 
Nimish
Posts: 2890
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:46 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:25 pm

So are any schedules available? Would AI have any "Special" seats/pricing for these flights? How would the connectivity at either end be? How is the a/c going to be configured (in terms of F/J/Y or Y+)?

Ever since AI ordered the LR's, this was an obvious/stated route.

I think this announcement is trying to take the attention off the DL's BOM-JFK announcement (and their much earlier start date).

What would make sense now is sharing details about the flight and throwing open bookings (assuming of course that they've done all their homework, unlike PK with their LRs).
Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
 
karan69
Posts: 2699
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:57 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:02 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
Air-India to fly non-stop to New York from April

I said this in one of the earlier Indian Aviation Threads but got a lot of opposition and criticisims from a particular member.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 5):
It would make more sense from EWR as a large immigrant community from BOM is based in New Jersey.

Also i think that it will be easier for them to obtain the convinient slot at EWR rather than a slot constrained airport like JFK, but i have a feeling JFK will be chosen in terms of a pure marketing basis. As many a time if a person thinks of an airport in NY he immediately thinks of JFK.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 12):
It would be wise therefore for AI to fly 4 weekly AMD-BOM-EWR-BOM-AMD and 3 weekly BOM-EWR-BOM with their B 772LR.

I was thinking the same thing if they went to EWR, start it from a A310 in AMD-BOM and conviniently connect it to the 772LR.

Another route that would be very profitable it they decided to do the BOM-JFK nonstop would be BOM-AMD-LHR-EWR, would really have high yields year round.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 3):
Even if DL takes payload restrictions, it is better than losing the market. It says that travel to India via Europe from the US is quickly coming to an end. Bad news for BA.

I dont think they will have to take heavy payload restrictions atleast on JFK-BOM, considering 14.30 hrs is a pretty normal duration for a 772ER,
i am not to sure about BOM-JFK.

Quoting Cha747 (Reply 13):
And Lufthansa, Emirates, KLM, Air France, Austrian, Royal Jordanian, Swiss, and a few others that offer 1-stop service through Europe or the Middle East

Travel from INdia to US via Europe is nowhere near ending until AI and even 9W realise the potential from secondary cities they is ample opportunity for the likes of BA/EK/SQ etc..

Quoting Cha747 (Reply 13):
Wonderful news for Indian nationals coming from India who won't have to be bothered getting transit visas for the countries that require them.

Indians dont have to have a transit visa if they hold valid travel documents to their onward american destination.

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 14):
Would AI get another 772LR to launch SFO, or will SFO be launched as a by-product of an aircraft being freed up because a NYC flight will go to a 772LR instead of the 744?

No idea of how SFo will be launched altough more likely than not it will be on a 772LR, and the 744 routes will be maintained despite the launch of the non-stop flights.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 17):
potential (operative word) problem I see is the uncles and aunties not wanting to sit on a plane for such a long period of time...however, given that its not too much more than ORD/EWR-DEL, hopefully it won't be a problem...of course, one never knows with aunties and uncles...

Mate i hear that AIs new product on the 772LR will be revolutionary , as far as i read on the airliner-india forum the 772LR will be configured in or under 200 seats and specail care is being taken for "old uncles/aunties" who travel in economy class.


Karan
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2378
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:30 pm

AI enjoys a good position as a low cost option on LHR-JFK sector.....so they may just continue to operate the 744 on BOM-LHR-JFK and make the non-stop from EWR - BOM......

But will the outbound flight from BOM - EWR (or JFK, we still don't know...) also be non-stop...?
 
commavia
Posts: 9634
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:29 pm

I think it is going to become increasingly difficult for airlines like BA, Lufthansa, Air France and Northwest to sell North America-India itineraries to high-value, time-sensitive business travelers now that there is going to be so much nonstop competition between the U.S. and India.
 
NYC777
Posts: 5065
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:32 pm

It seems to me that they will operate two daily flights between JFK and BOM. One that is nonstop and the other flying through LHR on the 744. Is that right?
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:51 pm

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 19):
Mate i hear that AIs new product on the 772LR will be revolutionary , as far as i read on the airliner-india forum the 772LR will be configured in or under 200 seats and specail care is being taken for "old uncles/aunties" who travel in economy class.

Revolutionary would mean that they have IFE that works.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
User avatar
mbm3
Posts: 694
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:54 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
As of now, DL is selling the full capacity of the aircraft - they are not planning any payload restrictions.

Selling the full capacity of the aircraft does not mean they are accepting cargo freight. I really do not see a 772ER making this trip with a full passenger and cargo load.
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 19):
Travel from INdia to US via Europe is nowhere near ending until AI and even 9W realise the potential from secondary cities they is ample opportunity for the likes of BA/EK/SQ etc..



Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
I think it is going to become increasingly difficult for airlines like BA, Lufthansa, Air France and Northwest to sell North America-India itineraries to high-value, time-sensitive business travelers now that there is going to be so much nonstop competition between the U.S. and India.

There is already evidence that AA and CO’s nonstops to India are hurting one-stop or connect routings by other carriers over Europe – which explains why DL and AI are moving as quickly as possible to get into the nonstop game as quickly as possible.

Nonstop routes in any market will always command a premium over connect routings. European carriers have been able to be such a large factor in the US-India market is because there were no planes that could economically fly from the US to India nonstop. On a connecting or one-stop basis, all carriers are equal. It is for this same reason that European airlines have been able to carry most of the US-Africa traffic. Routes were either too thin or too long to be flown nonstop. That is changing to both S. Asia and Africa. US and Indian airlines are grabbing the market that is out there and in so doing are cutting the European carriers out of the process while in Africa the process will largely be controlled by US carriers.

The 777 can develop DEL and BOM to the US but the 787 and A350 will open routes to the secondary cities in India as well as deeper into Africa. They will come in time. You’ve waited decades for the first US-India nonstops; it will be much faster to get full Indian subcontinent coverage. And those routes will be added from the top cities in the US leaving the European carriers will fewer and fewer less valuable connecting passengers.
 
sshank
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:58 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 19):
Also i think that it will be easier for them to obtain the convinient slot at EWR rather than a slot constrained airport like JFK, but i have a feeling JFK will be chosen in terms of a pure marketing basis. As many a time if a person thinks of an airport in NY he immediately thinks of JFK.

Karan, JFK is very hard to get to for most NYC /Northern NJ people, both in terms of time and expense. For example, if you were to try to get a friend to drop you at JFK you need to be prepared to offer multiple cases of beer as bribe (in addition to forever indebting you to him/her).

As others have stated, BA LH and the likes will continue to do fine, as this would do nothing to people who live in other parts of the US who would still prefer to at LHR, CDG and FRA rather than at BOM. Now if only AI would make up its mind and join *A, I will actually have a chance to fly them.
 
Nimish
Posts: 2890
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:46 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:23 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 25):
There is already evidence that AA and CO’s nonstops to India are hurting one-stop or connect routings by other carriers over Europe

Really - wow, that's good for the non-stops (I'm a huge supporter, nothing like being in air 18 hours!)?

Worldtraveller - I would be interested to see something to back this statement up (I'm not questioning the possibility, but just want to see some evidence so I can treat this as first hand rather than 5th hand info)
Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 19):
Mate i hear that AIs new product on the 772LR will be revolutionary , as far as i read on the airliner-india forum the 772LR will be configured in or under 200 seats and specail care is being taken for "old uncles/aunties" who travel in economy class.

Thanks for the info Karan  Smile, but under 200 seats, it might make the route a bit uneconomical....QF is having the same problem.....IIRC, they need more than 200 seats to make the -200LR economical for the Kangaroo Route...there is the cargo factor, and maybe that might make up for some of the lost revenue...

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 23):

Revolutionary would mean that they have IFE that works.

 rotfl ...come on, its not that bad, my dad flew AI business class last year, he said it was actually pretty good....
"Up the Irons!"
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 25):
Nonstop routes in any market will always command a premium over connect routings. European carriers have been able to be such a large factor in the US-India market is because there were no planes that could economically fly from the US to India nonstop. On a connecting or one-stop basis, all carriers are equal. It is for this same reason that European airlines have been able to carry most of the US-Africa traffic. Routes were either too thin or too long to be flown nonstop. That is changing to both S. Asia and Africa. US and Indian airlines are grabbing the market that is out there and in so doing are cutting the European carriers out of the process while in Africa the process will largely be controlled by US carriers.

So how do you explain the success of the likes of Emirates, who are doing rather nicely from building a one-stop change in DXB network ? They've taken plenty of traffic from direct carriers.

While I see what you are saying and yes non-stop will usually command a premium, its no guarantee that it will win over connecting traffic in terms of attracting passengers.

India is still an incredibly price-sensitive market (one of the most sensitive in the world), so for many a cheaper option through Europe may still be preferable.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
ATLTraveler
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:56 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:04 am

I dont understand why there is never any talk of Non-stops from Atlanta to either Del/Bom. There is a huge indian communtity which utilizes, the Delta/Airfrance and NW/KLM connections..Someone could easily fill a daily flight from Atlanta to India. Oh well..good for the NY to have those options...
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting ATLTraveler (Reply 30):
I dont understand why there is never any talk of Non-stops from Atlanta to either Del/Bom. There is a huge indian communtity which utilizes, the Delta/Airfrance and NW/KLM connections..Someone could easily fill a daily flight from Atlanta to India. Oh well..good for the NY to have those options...

Because you can't have nonstops from every city in the US to every city in India. Just because some city has 10 Indian grocery stores doesn't mean that every Indian there is rushing off to fly nonstop to India.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2378
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 31):
Because you can't have nonstops from every city in the US to every city in India. Just because some city has 10 Indian grocery stores doesn't mean that every Indian there is rushing off to fly nonstop to India.

True. The Indian population in the US is now so large (and so well off  Smile) that it is not possible to cater to all the population centres.....certain specific cities will get the services....moreover, if you consider Atlanta city, the Indian population may be fragmented between North and South and Western Indians....can't assume that a flight to BOM or DEL would satisfy all.....

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 23):
Revolutionary would mean that they have IFE that works.

Ohh....you're being unfair to AI.....I'm sure they'll roll out a good product....
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 31):
Because you can't have nonstops from every city in the US to every city in India. Just because some city has 10 Indian grocery stores doesn't mean that every Indian there is rushing off to fly nonstop to India.

Exactly - likewise it could be argued that every city in India with an airport should have a direct flight to the UK. Utterly pointless of course.

If Delta can't see the need to fly from ATL when they already are active in the Indian market, that perhaps tells you something.....
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 29):
So how do you explain the success of the likes of Emirates, who are doing rather nicely from building a one-stop change in DXB network ? They've taken plenty of traffic from direct carriers.

If you look at EK's model, most of it isn't O&D, but connecting passengers....EK have been taking business from some direct carriers because they offer better service (most of the time) at a better price (most of the time)....

I don't have the numbers though to back my claim...but having flown on EK for the past 10 years, that's been my general observation..

Fly on EK's JFK-DXB route, and one will see most pax are connecting to places such as India, Pakistan, as well as Africa, etc.

By the way, are you sure that they are taking "plenty of traffic" from direct carriers (i.e.-numbers would be good)? Who likes to make a one-stop trip when it could be done directly?
"Up the Irons!"
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:39 am

So when does the LAX-BOM/DEL non-stop start?
 
ATLTraveler
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:56 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 33):
Exactly - likewise it could be argued that every city in India with an airport should have a direct flight to the UK. Utterly pointless of course.

If Delta can't see the need to fly from ATL when they already are active in the Indian market, that perhaps tells you something.....

or it is possible that Delta does not have the aircraft with the range to make it happen. Atlanta and its suburbs alone have over 100,000 people from the subcontinent. Not counting the people from the surrounding cities(Athens,Augusta, Birmingham etc) who drive to the atlanta airport to take connecting flights to India.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22930
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 3):
It says that travel to India via Europe from the US is quickly coming to an end. Bad news for BA.



Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 5):
It would make more sense from EWR as a large immigrant community from BOM is based in New Jersey.

As Gr8Circle notes, does not AI offer significant lift on the JFK-LHR-India(DEL? BOM?) route?

This non-stop might be more complimentary to the existing EWR-CDG-BOM and JFK flights then predatory, since it will probably be more expensive then the connection via LHR.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):
SFO would be interesting...there is a massive Indian population in the Bay Area, especially in Sunnyvale, Fremont, San Jose, etc.

To say nothing of companies that offshore/outsource work to the Indian subcontinent who need to fly managers to those locations. YVR and SFO would also pick-up traffic from "Silicon Forest" (SEA/PDX) who have operations in the subcontinent.
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 34):
Who likes to make a one-stop trip when it could be done directly?

you've already answered your question

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 34):
EK have been taking business from some direct carriers because they offer better service (most of the time) at a better price (most of the time)....

But I think you have misread my post. My post was in answer to the assumption that non-stop is taking over from one-stop. Perhaps it is over a carrier flying BOM-LHR-NYC - that I don't disagree with. But to say it is taking over from people connecting at an intermediate airport is quite wrong - EK being a perfect example of this. If anything you've backed up my point rather than disagree with me.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 34):
By the way, are you sure that they are taking "plenty of traffic" from direct carriers (i.e.-numbers would be good)? Who likes to make a one-stop trip when it could be done directly?

They certainly are off weaker direct carriers. I have seen figures (as I work in the area of airport planning), but nothing to hand that I could publicly post.

But even forgetting EK for a moment. To give you another example, myself andmy colleagues currently fly between LON and DEL with LH connecting in MUC or FRA (MUC preferably). Put simply, LH's business class fare is cheaper than BA's economy plus fare. For a quick under one hour change in MUC it is indeed worth it, as it means we have a far better journey and are that much fresher to get on with work once we are there.

Conversly our German colleagues find its far cheaper to fly backwards to LON to fly to India than direct from FRA  Wow!
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting ATLTraveler (Reply 36):
or it is possible that Delta does not have the aircraft with the range to make it happen. Atlanta and its suburbs alone have over 100,000 people from the subcontinent. Not counting the people from the surrounding cities(Athens,Augusta, Birmingham etc) who drive to the atlanta airport to take connecting flights to India.

if it really was THAT attractive they'd fly through CDG and make it happen.


Do bear in mind that having spoken to AI recently about their potential Indian destinations, ATL wasn't one on their mind either and their approach is to always fly to where the Disapora is.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 37):
To say nothing of companies that offshore/outsource work to the Indian subcontinent who need to fly managers to those locations. YVR and SFO would also pick-up traffic from "Silicon Forest" (SEA/PDX) who have operations in the subcontinent.

It's no secret that SFO is right at the very top of Kingfisher's international wishlist to fly out of Bangalore. YVR is another.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 38):
To give you another example, myself andmy colleagues currently fly between LON and DEL with LH connecting in MUC or FRA (MUC preferably). Put simply, LH's business class fare is cheaper than BA's economy plus fare. For a quick under one hour change in MUC it is indeed worth it, as it means we have a far better journey and are that much fresher to get on with work once we are there.

Conversly our German colleagues find its far cheaper to fly backwards to LON to fly to India than direct from FRA

I think that's a little bit of a different situation than North American travelers (or Indian travelers) bypassing the stop in Europe in favor of direct North American-Indian routings. I think I'd rather fly, say, LAX-JFK-BOM, than LAX-FRA-BOM. It's simply shorter, with no transit lounges or anything like that to deal with.

However, I do agree that I would rather fly LAX-FRA-BLR, than LAX-BOM-BLR. Europe will still be an important transit point for travel to secondary Indian (and US) cities.
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:00 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 41):
think that's a little bit of a different situation than North American travelers (or Indian travelers) bypassing the stop in Europe in favor of direct North American-Indian routings. I think I'd rather fly, say, LAX-JFK-BOM, than LAX-FRA-BOM. It's simply shorter, with no transit lounges or anything like that to deal with.

That may well be the case, and if it was me I'd tend to prefer it that way too but where price is a key factor then it may well make all the difference.

And changing in MUC really is VERY smooth and quick indeed - although I acknowledge its certainly not the same for all Euro airports, such as my own...
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
blrsea
Posts: 1424
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 32):
True. The Indian population in the US is now so large (and so well off Smile) that it is not possible to cater to all the population centres

Yup, US is not ORD/JFK alone, India isn't just BOM/DEL  Smile European and SE Asian airlines will continue to have a big market because of convinient connections. In my opinion, the non-stop traffic will affect only the O&D passengers at those airports, who might go for non-stop flights. For a person like me, BA's SEA-LHR-BLR or AF's SEA-JFK-CDG-BLR or LH's SEA-ORD-FRA-BLR is preferable to say SEA-JFK-BOM-BLR. And given that most of the international flights reaches India late at night, and you have to wait till next morning for onward connection, it is preferable to connect through Europe/Asia.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:11 am

Look, in the end its always the cheaper and/or more convenient flight that matters.

For instance, I'm going to BOM in November and I considered connecting to the Delta nonstop from JFK after a short hop from DC to JFK. But I got a great J Class fare on Air France from Dulles to BOM. And it was cheaper than Delta's flight by ~ $ 1000. And AF J is much better than DL J.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:13 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 44):
Look, in the end its always the cheaper and/or more convenient flight that matters.

For instance, I'm going to BOM in November and I considered connecting to the Delta nonstop from JFK after a short hop from DC to JFK. But I got a great J Class fare on Air France from Dulles to BOM. And it was cheaper than Delta's flight by ~ $ 1000. And AF J is much better than DL J.

My point exactly - if you are footing the bill, that is a BIG saving.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 200

Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 37):
To say nothing of companies that offshore/outsource work to the Indian subcontinent who need to fly managers to those locations. YVR and SFO would also pick-up traffic from "Silicon Forest" (SEA/PDX) who have operations in the subcontinent.

 checkmark ..the first carrier to fly this route (probably AI) will clean up shop!

Quoting Cornish (Reply 38):
you've already answered your question

ummm..actually I didn't.. no 

Quoting Cornish (Reply 38):
But I think you have misread my post. My post was in answer to the assumption that non-stop is taking over from one-stop. Perhaps it is over a carrier flying BOM-LHR-NYC - that I don't disagree with. But to say it is taking over from people connecting at an intermediate airport is quite wrong - EK being a perfect example of this. If anything you've backed up my point rather than disagree with me.

once again, I didn't.....and you haven't competely proved your point..I haven't seen or read where EK is taking business away from BA, AF on direct routes...for example...has AF cut or downgraded its nonstop CDG-NRT route because people are prefering to fly CDG-DXB-NRT with EK or the same with BA's LHR-DEL..why fly LHR-DXB-DEL or LHR-DXB-JNB?

if there is a choice with having to stop or change planes, certainly EK will probably be the better choice..i.e. such as LHR-SYD...

Quoting Cornish (Reply 38):
They certainly are off weaker direct carriers. I have seen figures (as I work in the area of airport planning), but nothing to hand that I could publicly post.

I already stated EK was taking some business way from certain carriers....thus, you proved my point..but you haven't shown the example for EK taking away from the established carriers...however, that is certainly one of EK's goals..to become a "one-stop shop" to all points in the world (and spend some time -ie.. dollarsign  in Dubai)

Quoting Cornish (Reply 38):

But even forgetting EK for a moment. To give you another example, myself andmy colleagues currently fly between LON and DEL with LH connecting in MUC or FRA (MUC preferably). Put simply, LH's business class fare is cheaper than BA's economy plus fare. For a quick under one hour change in MUC it is indeed worth it, as it means we have a far better journey and are that much fresher to get on with work once we are

But how many examples of that are you going to find? Certainly most high-yielding business pax would take the nonstop route....and we already know BA caters quite a bit to the higher yielding (in other words higher paying) pax
"Up the Irons!"
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 46):
But how many examples of that are you going to find? Certainly most high-yielding business pax would take the nonstop route....and we already know BA caters quite a bit to the higher yielding (in other words higher paying) pax

And for many flying BA business class (especially with the new product), or EK for that matter will still be preferable than flying AI direct between the US and India, or AA or UA.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 46):
Quoting Cornish (Reply 38):
you've already answered your question

ummm..actually I didn't..

yes you did - you asked who likes to fly one stop when they fly direct and then you talked about EK and its competitive pricing. The point being that those people who are price sensitive would prefer to pay less and fly non-direct. and with some of the savings, that can be business class passengers as much as economy.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 200

Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 47):
yes you did - you asked who likes to fly one stop when they fly direct and then you talked about EK and its competitive pricing. The point being that those people who are price sensitive would prefer to pay less and fly non-direct. and with some of the savings, that can be business class passengers as much as economy.

umm..yes..but I was being rhetorical..... Wink

to make it clear, my comment was regarding how big is the market for it...to which I believe it isn't as big...especially with more fuel effiecient planes which can get the cost of flying nonstop low enough....

that being said, its no big deal, at least we agree on certain things, and for the things which we disagree on, it really isn't a big deal..we'll let the market prove who's wrong and who's right.. Smile

Quoting Cornish (Reply 47):
And for many flying BA business class (especially with the new product), or EK for that matter will still be preferable than flying AI direct between the US and India, or AA or UA.

that is to be seen...AA's and CO's India routes are doing exceptionally well...and one could surmise some of that traffic is being skimmed from carriers such as BA, LH, etc...in fact, I know some people in the Chicagoland area who now fly AA nonstop, where as previously, they used to fly via LHR, FRA, etc....

actually, my family used to fly ORD-JFK-FRA-KHI then ORD-FRA/AMS-KHI...now they fly ORD-MAN-KHI and some of my other relatives fly YYZ-KHI rather than YYZ-LHR-DXB-KHI.....saves time and hassle...especially for the aunties and uncles....

my dad has flown ORD-FRA-DEL-PAT..but now he will fly ORD-DEL-PAT..once again, it saves time and hassles...


if one looks at BA, VS, LH in SFO...my general observation (so this isn't any kind of rigour analysis) has been that some pax are not O&D pax, but rather connecting pax......and I know a few in the Bay area who would like to fly nonstop...
"Up the Irons!"
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: AI To Fly New York-BOM Non-Stop From April 2007

Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:58 am

The evidence of AA and CO’s success is the recent lower loads on NW (remember we just had a security incident that provided passenger numbers on the flight which were low – a look at seat maps shows its isn’t an aberration). Also DL’s selective cancellations on CDGBOM and CDGMAA can show that they can use those planes elsewhere. The fact they are leaving the MAA market once they launch BOM nonstop says they don’t believe there is value to operating on a connect basis, even with the help of AF’s CDG hub on which DL and AF can connect hundreds of cities at CDG.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 29):
So how do you explain the success of the likes of Emirates, who are doing rather nicely from building a one-stop change in DXB network ? They've taken plenty of traffic from direct carriers.

EK also has one of the lowest costs of any large carrier in the world. They do offer good service and have low prices and will pull traffic off of nonstops but the most premium traffic in any market will always fly on nonstops. Personally, I think the Middle East carriers have built their model way too much around connecting traffic to be viable but that is another discussion. They are sitting next to the world’s fastest growing regions but the airlines in the countries where that traffic originates are not going to sit by and let a connecting carrier pull away all of their traffic….

Cornish’s story of going through Germany will also be true but the European carriers will be the most impacted by the changes in the Indian market. Not only will US and Indian carriers fly nonstop between more and more city pairs but the Middle East carriers will pull off the most price sensitive passengers and still be able to make money. European airlines have the highest costs in the world; they simply cannot exist by carrying low yield spill connecting traffic. It will take time before they fully feel the impact but Europe’s role as a connecting point between the Americas and Africa and Asia will fade away as certainly as Ireland was a mandatory stopping point on transatlantic filghts.

Quoting ATLTraveler (Reply 30):
I dont understand why there is never any talk of Non-stops from Atlanta to either Del/Bom

I am certain DL will offer nonstops to India from ATL in time but they will need 777LRs or 787s to do it. In a couple years, we might start hearing plans to that regard. ATL is the world’s largest hub and has excellent access to all of the US outside of the NE. DL will undoubtedly develop its Indian nonstop routes from both JFK and ATL, and possibly LAX later. You can be certain that DL is not going to sit around and lose its position in the Indian market – or lose the opportunity to grow the share it presently has. I would expect AI to do the same.