nzblue
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F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:57 pm

Excerpt from the press release on the Frontier Airlines Website:

http://frontierairlines.com/frontier...e-are/news-media/press-releases.do

Frontier Airlines Holdings, Inc. to Purchase 10 Bombardier Q400 Turboprops, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion up to 20 Aircraft

Frontier Airlines Holdings, Inc. Launches Turboprop Service and Seeks to Expand Regional Jet Operation

DENVER, Sept. 6 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Frontier Airlines Holdings, Inc. (NASDAQ: FRNT), referred to below as the Company, today announced it has entered into an agreement with Bombardier, Inc. to purchase ten 74-seat Q400 turboprop aircraft, with an option to purchase an additional ten aircraft. The Company intends to operate the Q400s under a wholly owned subsidiary with its own operating certificate. Leveraging the strength of Frontier Airlines Denver International Airport (DEN) hub, which provides service to a network of 57 North American cities, the subsidiary intends to use its fleet of Q400s to bring low-cost service to under-served markets in Colorado and the Rocky Mountain region. The subsidiary expects to serve as many as 18 destinations using the new aircraft and to create 300-400 new jobs. Cities to be served have not yet been finalized.

"This aircraft purchase will enable our service to grow by giving Frontier access to regional leisure and business travel destinations that were previously inaccessible to us but are ideally suited for the economics of the Q400," said Jeff Potter, president and CEO of Frontier Airlines Holdings, Inc. "Our goal is to bring the Frontier experience to under-served markets using a comfortable, state-of-the-art new aircraft, and the Q400 is the perfect aircraft for that mission."

The Company's first Q400 aircraft is scheduled for delivery in May 2007, with subsequent deliveries continuing throughout the balance of the year. The total fleet of 10 aircraft is scheduled to be in service by December 2007. Deliveries of the option aircraft, if exercised, would begin in March 2008. The Frontier brand name will be used for the new service, as it is with the airline's regional service, Frontier JetExpress. The Q400 aircraft will be painted in the Frontier livery with the familiar animals on the tail of every aircraft.

In conjunction with Frontier's Q400 growth strategy, the airline is also seeking a partner(s) to operate up to 20 regional jet (RJ) aircraft, to either augment or replace its existing fleet of nine CRJ-700 aircraft, currently operated by Horizon Air as Frontier JetExpress. The expanded RJ fleet will be used to seed mainline service by developing new and smaller markets into mature mainline markets for Frontier and to supplement Frontier's mainline service.

"Our 12-year contract with Horizon Air allows for either party to initiate a review of the terms for changes to be agreed to after three years, and we are currently in discussions with Horizon in this regard," said Paul Tate, senior vice president and CFO of Frontier. "We intend to distribute a request for proposal (RFP) to Horizon Air and other RJ operators within the next 30 days that will enable us to execute our growth strategy."

[Edited 2006-09-06 16:12:35]
It's an entirely different kind of flying; all together.
 
emseeeye
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:17 pm

Great news for F9! It will be interesting to see how these Q400's do in the LCC world.
 
drgmobile
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:25 pm

Very interesting stuff. Sounds like Frontier JetExpress is working. I wonder why Frontier's new subsidiary isn't considering operating its own RJs though.
 
hiflyer
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:45 pm

First off looks like perhaps Great Lakes is out....and that Horizon is going to have to bid down to hold the contract...the anticipated savings will help finance the q fleet. Would not be suprised if they are looking at the Republic group to get some E170 family aircraft aka JetBlue style with TV.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:50 pm

I wonder if this signals that Frontier wants lower costs from QX? We always hear that they are happy with them as a service provider, but maybe that's been overstated from an economic standpoint.

Could QX take on 20 more CRJ-700's? I have my doubts, as they would have to find a home for them if F9 were to terminate their contractual relationship later, and 20 is a big number to absorb into the QX route network. Of course they could go out and peddle their services to another carrier, but if Frontier thinks they are too pricey, who else is gonna take them on?

Just random thoughts...

-Dave
-Dave
 
airmech
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:53 pm

Here is Horizon's news release;

Frontier announces purchase of Q400s and expansion of JetExpress program

Frontier Airlines this morning announced an ambitious plan to expand operations out of its Denver hub by purchasing 10 Q400s and increasing Frontier JetExpress flying by up to 20 regional jets.

In its press release, Frontier said it will form a wholly owned subsidiary to operate the Q400s, which it will use to bring low-cost service to under-served markets in Colorado and the Rocky Mountain region. Frontier expects to serve as many as 18 destinations using the new aircraft.

Frontier said it considered having Horizon Air do the Q400 flying, because of our high level of experience with the aircraft, but it decided that purchasing and operating the aircraft itself under a new, separate operating certificate would be most cost effective.

Frontier also said it wants to expand CRJ flying out of Denver to develop new markets and supplement its mainline service. Horizon currently operates nine of its 20 CRJ-700s as Frontier JetExpress. Frontier said it will seek one partner or more to operate up to 20 regional jets for the JetExpress operation.

"We intend to distribute a request for proposal (RFP) to Horizon Air and other RJ operators within the next 30 days that will enable us to execute our growth strategy,” said Paul Tate, Frontier's senior vice president and CFO.

Horizon’s 12-year contract with Frontier -- which started on Jan. 1, 2004 -- allows after three years for either party to initiate a review of the terms for changes to be agreed to.

Carriers are now commonly putting out RFPs for regional contract flying in order to reduce their costs for the services provided by their regional affiliates. Horizon will be given the opportunity to submit a bid for continuing to operate JetExpress per the terms of the RFP. In the coming days, Horizon will be analyzing and then responding to Frontier’s RFP.
 
nzblue
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:02 am

Here's the Bombardier press release:

Bombardier Sells 10 Q400 Turboprops to Frontier Airlines

Toronto, September 06, 2006

Bombardier Aerospace announced today that Frontier Airlines of Denver, Colorado has signed a contract to acquire 10 Bombardier Q400 74-seat airliners. The contract includes options on 10 additional Q400 aircraft.

The value of the firm orders based on list price is $256.8 million US. The value could rise to $520.3 million US if the 10 options are exercised.

The Q400 aircraft is the airline’s first turboprop. Frontier operates 280 flights a day to 57 destinations in the U.S., Canada and Mexico, some of which are flown by Horizon Air as Frontier JetExpress using Bombardier CRJ700 regional jets.

“Only the Bombardier Q400 aircraft has the very low operating costs and operational characteristics that we require to develop new flying from our hub in Denver to points in Colorado and surrounding states,” said Jeff Potter, President and Chief Executive Officer, Frontier Airlines. “The aircraft’s high cruise speed and excellent passenger comfort complete an extremely attractive package. Judging from the experience of other Q400 operators, our passengers are going to enjoy flying in this aircraft.”

“We are delighted that Frontier Airlines has recognized the superb qualities of the Bombardier Q400,” said Steven Ridolfi, President, Bombardier Regional Aircraft. “This aircraft is in a class by itself. There is no other regional aircraft that comes close to matching its low operating costs and we look forward to supporting Frontier’s future growth.”

Frontier Airlines becomes the 18th operator to order the Bombardier Q400. Firm orders stood at 185 aircraft as of July 31, 2006, with 125 having been delivered.
It's an entirely different kind of flying; all together.
 
nosedive
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:13 am

Looks like a precurser to tomorrow's shareholder meeting:
Webcast at 9:30 MDT

Looks to be a $250,000,000 order Marketwire

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 2):
I wonder why Frontier's new subsidiary isn't considering operating its own RJs though.

The whole thing is puzzling, isn't it?

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 3):
First off looks like perhaps Great Lakes is out

Well, not quite. You're talking some large props here compared to Great Lake's 1900s and 120s... Great Lakes could be under pressure by F9 to get lower costs though.

In any event, DLKAPA peed his pants.

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 3):
Would not be suprised if they are looking at the Republic group to get some E170 family aircraft aka JetBlue style with TV.

How fast can the Republic group grab some 170s?


the fall 07 ski season looks to be an interesting one!

My bets for Colorado: ASE, EGE, DRO for sure. COS, GJT, TEX, SBS likely maybe PUB
 
DLKAPA
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:18 am

Great, too bad I left DRO with no intentions on returning.  Wink

Still, it'll be fun spotting Q4s flying around DEN.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
FutureFO
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:22 am

Is this going to bet the new Mountain Air Express????



Sean
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:33 am

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 3):
First off looks like perhaps Great Lakes is out

I doubt it completely. In some markets yes, but there are way too many EAS markets that cannot be served with DH4s.

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 7):
My bets for Colorado: ASE, EGE, DRO for sure. COS, GJT, TEX, SBS likely maybe PUB

PUB cannot support a 74 seat aircraft, they are lucky they have any service at all. GJT definitely, SBS would be great!!
 
charlienorth
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 2):
Very interesting stuff. Sounds like Frontier JetExpress is working. I wonder why Frontier's new subsidiary isn't considering operating its own RJs though.

I'm kind wondering if there is something in the pilot union scope clause regarding this,just a guess...it is good to see an airline recognizing the economics of turboprop operations and it looks like the ski resorts will see some improved service..
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
Kohflot
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:16 am

I wouldn't be surprised if the Montana cities (BIL, BZN, MSO, GTF, FCA) are on the radar with the new Q400 operation. Perhaps that's leading to frostier relations with QX, as a new 'low-cost' entrant in those cities could lower yields quite a bit.

As for other cities.. I wouldn't be surprised to see ICT attempted again. CYS and JAC would make sense, too. Can the airport at SAF support a Q400?

I think keeping RJ service seperate from the Q400 outfit is a good idea. First, it keeps things simpler for what will be a brand new airline. It also allows more flexibility in the event the Q400 routes to DEN don't work out. There are a ton of RJ operators out there, but not many regionals operate the big cost-effective turboprop. If they need to seek new opportunities, it'd be advantageous to market themselves as simply a Q400 provider.
Ask why..
 
ScottB
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:25 am

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 2):
Sounds like Frontier JetExpress is working.

Well, perhaps from the standpoint of incremental mainline revenue and/or market development it does, but on a pure profit-and-loss basis as reflected in the company's income statement, the JetExpress operation lost about $2.15 million last quarter. That's probably largely due to the margin Frontier pays Horizon as consideration for operating the flights, but pretty much all contract regional operators receive a guaranteed profit margin.

I suppose this announcement of a new regional subsidiary explains at least in part the decision of Frontier to reorganize itself and create a holding company. Even though they're experienced in operating an airline, I suspect the experience of Republic (which owned Chautauqua) might show that it could take some time to obtain a new certificate from the government.

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 2):
I wonder why Frontier's new subsidiary isn't considering operating its own RJs though.

That's a really good question, and I wondered that as well. My only guesses were that they didn't want to take on the additional balance sheet leverage (given that they're still taking delivery of new Airbuses and now ten Q400's) that would be involved with twenty 70-seat RJ's, or perhaps they'd be unable to have enough aircraft delivered from Bombardier and/or Embraer in the timeframe they prefer.

Exactly WHO would be operating these aircraft is an interesting question. I doubt very strongly that Frontier would hire Mesa again, and the number of available 70-seat operators is limited -- especially ones which might be limited by contracts for flying out of DEN with United. The latter consideration might be enough to keep Trans States (GoJets) and Republic out of the running, and it definitely excludes SkyWest. I do not know if Delta's contract with SkyWest regarding ASA restricts SkyWest from performing ASA flying on the behalf of other airlines.

In any event, I can certainly see the Q400's being used to ski destinations in Colorado and the surrounding states in winter, while also offering service to a number of the smaller Mountain West cities which up until now haven't been able to support F9 service.
 
charlienorth
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 13):
Exactly WHO would be operating these aircraft is an interesting question. I doubt very strongly that Frontier would hire Mesa again, and the number of available 70-seat operators is limited -- especially ones which might be limited by contracts for flying out of DEN with United. The latter consideration might be enough to keep Trans States (GoJets) and Republic out of the running, and it definitely excludes SkyWest. I do not know if Delta's contract with SkyWest regarding ASA restricts SkyWest from performing ASA flying on the behalf of other airlines.

It actually sounds like it will be a division of F9 like American Eagle,keep the control of the quality of the operation in-house with their people and procedures.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
roseflyer
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 4):
Could QX take on 20 more CRJ-700's? I have my doubts, as they would have to find a home for them if F9 were to terminate their contractual relationship later, and 20 is a big number to absorb into the QX route network. Of course they could go out and peddle their services to another carrier, but if Frontier thinks they are too pricey, who else is gonna take them on?

Well it is quite possible that Frontier could purchase the planes and have Horizon operate them. That would reduce the risk for Horizon so that they wouldn't be stuck with an unused fleet that they might have to take on routes that won't necessarily earn a profit in case the contract gets dumped. We all know how variable the regional carrier industry can be, especially with the turnover seen at United.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
A330300
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansio

Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:36 am

From a Frontier CSA standpoint, if this means the end of the ZK partnership, I'm all for it. The ZK/F9 partnership in Denver almost always results in misconnected bags and all sorts of issues - ultimately adding costly extra expenses for F9.

If Lynx can provide a seamless F9 experience from city to city, then it'll be a positive move from a customer standpoint - the Q400 is just icing on the cake.

It'll be interesting to see how Frontier will integrate staffing and lateral movement within the two divisions - corporate staffing is thin already, will Frontier add new positions or stretch existing ones to cover both?

[Edited 2006-09-06 18:53:57]
 
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clickhappy
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:37 am

I wouldn't be surprised if the Montana cities (BIL, BZN, MSO, GTF, FCA) are on the radar with the new Q400 operation. Perhaps that's leading to frostier relations with QX, as a new 'low-cost' entrant in those cities could lower yields quite a bit.

Would QX care? Seems to me, while F9 and AS fly to a few of the same places, their route maps are different enough that both carriers could thrive?
 
F9Animal
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:42 am

While the announcement comes as a shocker, I am amazed at the potential of this news. Someone is a genious in this. Seriously!!!!

F9 is going to offer service that WN is not able to. If you can't beat them, serve cities that WN can't get to! Way to go F9!!!!! Can't wait to see the paint jobs on these 400's!

Maybe someone with some skills could give us a sneak preview of what they will look like.
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DLKAPA
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 7):

My bets for Colorado: ASE, EGE, DRO for sure. COS, GJT, TEX, SBS likely maybe PUB

APA will see service before SBS. HDN on the other hand...
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
MSYtristar
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:44 am

F9 is getting pretty ambitious as of late....new 320's, aggresive Mexico expansion, now the Q400 order. I'm all for them building up DEN. I just hope they don't bite off more than they can chew.
 
F9Animal
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 20):
F9 is getting pretty ambitious as of late....new 320's, aggresive Mexico expansion, now the Q400 order. I'm all for them building up DEN. I just hope they don't bite off more than they can chew.

I was thinking the same thing.. But, F9 has been laying low lately. Usually when F9 does this, they are in some type of planning stage. F9 really has no choice but to expand and offer a service that WN can't. The day we see WN landing a 737 into ASE, GJT, DRO, and other hard to reach places will be the day. F9 is and has been looking at ways to compete with WN, without causing an all out ruckus.

I hope the plan works!!!
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
A330300
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansio

Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:54 am

On the CRJs...it's known that when examined individually, the current Frontier JetExpress operation is not profitable for Frontier. However, when looked at as a whole, the JetEx operation does contribute to the overall revenue/profit stream for Frontier.

"In conjunction with Frontier's Q400 growth strategy, the airline is also seeking a partner(s) to operate up to 20 regional jet (RJ) aircraft, 'to either augment or replace its existing fleet of nine CRJ-700 aircraft, currently operated by Horizon Air as Frontier JetExpress.'"

"'Our 12-year contract with Horizon Air allows for either party to initiate a review of the terms for changes to be agreed to after three years, and we are currently in discussions with Horizon in this regard," said Paul Tate, senior vice president and CFO of Frontier. "We intend to distribute a request for proposal (RFP) to Horizon Air and other RJ operators within the next 30 days that will enable us to execute our growth strategy.'"

I'm guessing the RFPs will seek to lower costs on the RJ operation for JetEx - I believe the current operation has F9 paying QX on a per-departure basis, and QX profits quite well from this. However, QX is also struggling with aircraft availability to support AS/QX growth, so whether or not QX will actually bid for the increased operation will be interesting to follow. If QX/F9 agree to drop CR7 flying or what the new partner is opens up yet another possibility - ERJ? CR2? CR7? CR9?

Potentially, the entire operation next July could be:

Frontier Airlines (318/319) - (114, 132 pax)
Lynx Aviation (Q400) (74)
Horizon (CR7) (70)
and/or
New operator (???) (37-90 pax?)

Q400 delivery schedule - looks like operations will ramp up fully during the shoulder season with full operations by Winter 2007 for the 10 firm a/c:

1st May 2007
2nd July 2007
3rd Aug. 2007
4th Sept. 2007
5th, 6th Oct. 2007
7th, 8th Nov. 2007
9th, 10th Dec. 2007

[Edited 2006-09-06 18:55:38]

[Edited 2006-09-06 18:58:48]
 
Kohflot
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 17):
Would QX care? Seems to me, while F9 and AS fly to a few of the same places, their route maps are different enough that both carriers could thrive?

It's the traffic that connects at SEA/PDX that could give QX heartburn with this whole deal. Sure, they keep a premium on Pac NW-Montana traffic.. but anywhere south and east of there is just a little further via DEN. Of course, I'm sure F9 would say they're more interested in taking traffic from NW, DL, and UA.
Ask why..
 
MaverickM11
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 3):
First off looks like perhaps Great Lakes is out....

What do you mean by "out"? No one in their right mind would fly a ZK market with a 74 seat aircraft.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ca2ohHP
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 7):
My bets for Colorado: ASE, EGE, DRO for sure. COS, GJT, TEX, SBS likely maybe PUB

Can the Q400 operate out of TEX? I know YV does it with the -100's.

This is bad news for United. Once F9 enters ASE, UA is going to lose yield fast.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:36 am

Most likely Q400 Routes:

Colorado Springs (Some sort of shuttle operation)
Aspen
Grand Junction
Hayden/Steamboat (Seasonal)
Durango (Seasonal)
Gunnison (Seasonal)
Vail (Seasonal)
Casper
Billings/Helena
Missoula/Bozeman
Rapid City
Amarillo/Lubbock
Idaho Falls/Sun Valley
 
wolsingerjet
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:39 am

On another note when in DEN the last week I was surprised to hear that F9 is still looking to expand into Canada.The YYC route is performing at a ''ok'' level and I thought that may change plans a little for them.YVR and YEG are on there list of cities they want to serve.Be interesting to see what the next move is....
Guess what???I dont like you either...
 
SANFan
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:51 am

Just maybe F9 has some plans for flying their animals to some of those very under-served markets in The Valley of California, service that is way overdue and could very well make lots of money for someone.

As F9 seems to be very gradually setting up shop in CA, what better strategy than grow SFO, LAX and SAN, and then start connecting the dots with feeder flights to FAT, BFL, MOD, SCK, SBA, MRY, VIS, SMF, etc. With the right a/c and a good sense of frequency/timing, these markets should be ripe for the picking! (Sorry for the agri-pun...)

There's also the Mexico growth happening at F9 which certainly ties in well with this scenario.

I firmly believe F9 is just getting started in the Golden State.

bb
 
nosedive
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 19):
APA will see service before SBS. HDN on the other hand...

Fine, add APA then  Wink

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 25):
Can the Q400 operate out of TEX? I know YV does it with the -100's.

Good point.

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 25):
This is bad news for United. Once F9 enters ASE, UA is going to lose yield fast.

Well, it's not like they own the place, as YV is there on behalf of HP/US

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 10):
PUB cannot support a 74 seat aircraft, they are lucky they have any service at all.

True, nvm.
 
saab2000
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:05 am

This would be very interesting. I believe there are some non-compete clauses for DEN flying with the United Express carriers. I could be wrong on that though. But that would mean that Mesa, Skywest, etc would not be allowed to bid on this.

This could be the ticket back to ASE for Air Wisconsin if they are invited to bid on any of this flying.
smrtrthnu
 
Kohflot
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 28):
As F9 seems to be very gradually setting up shop in CA, what better strategy than grow SFO, LAX and SAN, and then start connecting the dots with feeder flights to FAT, BFL, MOD, SCK, SBA, MRY, VIS, SMF, etc. With the right a/c and a good sense of frequency/timing, these markets should be ripe for the picking! (Sorry for the agri-pun...)

I mentioned in a previous thread that there's got to be a market for intra-California flights that don't require a connection at LAX or SFO. They could even be multi-stop hops up and down the state. Something like SAN-SBA-SMF or LGB-FAT-SMF. At night, the aircraft could be used for flights to VFR cities in Mexico.
Ask why..
 
ca2ohHP
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting Kohflot (Reply 31):
Something like SAN-SBA-SMF or LGB-FAT-SMF.

Would be awesome to have F9 in LGB. No ticket counter space though...unless the city invests in more trailers.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 3):
Would not be suprised if they are looking at the Republic group to get some E170 family aircraft aka JetBlue style with TV.

This I wonder too... Could F9 be bidding for E175's/CR9's? Quite simply with a fleet of Q400's, the RJ's will need to improve their economics dramatically. Thus, I wonder if larger RJ's than the CR7 are desired in order to reduce the CASM?

Great news to hear F9 is expanding. This is a large expansion that will serve them well. I'd bet they excercise all of their Q400 options.  spin 

Now, I'm curious as to Mariner's opinion. I'm not about to cross swords with him on F9 economics.  Wink

Lightsaber

Ps, I flew F9 for my first time last week. Very nice. Just have them cut down on the number of people trying to sell the stupid credit cards, ok? After the 10th sales pitch, I had enough! (My fault for pacing the terminal to stretch my legs, but still...)
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
A330300
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:32 am

My guess for the new/increased RJ operation would be geared toward 50-70 seaters...if Horizon stays, I would guess more CR7s or CR2s.

Reasoning behind this - Frontier compared the E190 and the A318 and decided on the A318 - this effectively covers the 100 seat segment of the fleet. The CR7s hold 70 - and if CR2s were acquired, they could supplement CR7 frequencies to add needed capacity.

Of course I would LOVE the EMB family to show up but I have my doubts, seeing that the CRJ economics are superior to those of the EMB family.
 
IADCRJ
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:32 am

I am surprissed that F9 did not seek Horizon to operate this new Q400 service, since F9 currently has a partnership with them and Horizon is a current operator of the aircraft. It would probably cheaper and perhaps quicker to commence this service via Horizon.
 
nosedive
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting IADCRJ (Reply 35):
I am surprissed that F9 did not seek Horizon to operate this new Q400 service

Well, IIRC QX didn't seem too keen on expanding their Q400 fleet for whatever reason...
 
copaair737
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:50 am

Isn't BIL already served by F9 JetExpress??? If so, would the Q400 be in addition to the exisiting flight, or a complete replacement?

-Copa
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
CRJ900
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:04 am

Perhaps F9 should demand that the 20 RJs must have PTVs like their own Airbuses. If so, demand will probably rise and they can order CRJ900 instead of CRJ700... hasn't QX/AS been looking at the CRJ900 also?
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
emseeeye
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 28):
As F9 seems to be very gradually setting up shop in CA, what better strategy than grow SFO, LAX and SAN, and then start connecting the dots with feeder flights to FAT, BFL, MOD, SCK, SBA, MRY, VIS, SMF, etc. With the right a/c and a good sense of frequency/timing, these markets should be ripe for the picking! (Sorry for the agri-pun...)

Ive always thought the Central Valley would be a ripe picking for F9 and DEN however would any of these airports not be able to support a Q400?
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:18 am

It isn't unexpected news. When they started setting up the holding company at the beginning of the year, they said one of the reasons was to have a regional airline seperate from mainline.

They also said there may be a Mexican subsidiary, as well, so who knows?

I think (stress "think") part of the problem with Horizon is that they don't have any spare CR7's, and could not get any quickly.

Who does? I can't see Frontier going for the 50 seat CRJ's, especially after the wretched experience with Mesa.

Yes, I think it is a problem for Great Lakes. They serve Grand Junction (for example) because Frontier asked them to, so what happens to that?
But Great Lakes covers a number of possible cities in its own right - ski destinations, and places such as AMA. RAP is another issue.

It isn't like Frontier just to try and kick 'em out, but I doubt Frontier would want the EAS services, and they seem to be what is keeping Great Lakes going.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 28):
I firmly believe F9 is just getting started in the Golden State.

Yes. I don't think it will ever be a big operation, but I agree. Which may be one of the reasons they started LAX-SFO.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 26):
Most likely Q400 Routes:

That's a good list. I'd put a tad more emphasis on COS.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 13):
the JetExpress operation lost about $2.15 million last quarter.

This is another issue that has been discussed, several times, on various conference calls.

The JetExpress operation, Frontier has said, is only stand alone profitable for "a few months" each year.

However, as for several airlines, the value is in the feed it provides.

Quoting A330300 (Reply 22):
Lynx Aviation (Q400) (74)

I wonder why you call it Lynx? That name is already taken. Unless Frontier is planning to buy the airline (joke, guys, joke - but I wish):

http://www.lynxair.com/

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
flyb
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Wolsingerjet (Reply 27):
YVR and YEG are on there list of cities they want to serve.Be interesting to see what the next move is....

It will be interesting to see if they will expand. They see strong competition on the DEN route with 5x daily already on UA from YYC and 3x daily from YEG. I think added features like PTV's is one benefit, but for travellers many times programs, frequency, and cost is more important. Frontier has a shot in the Canadian market, I look forward to how they brand themselves.
 
planemaker
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:34 am

Well, congratulations to the growing Mexico aerospace sector!

BBD's Queretaro plant will be building the Q400's electrical harness and flight-control work (moved from MHI to Mexico) -- the rudder, elevator and horizontal stabiliser assemblies. Within the next year the Q400 fuselage will also be transfered there from MHI.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
emseeeye
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 38):
Perhaps F9 should demand that the 20 RJs must have PTVs like their own Airbuses. If so, demand will probably rise and they can order CRJ900 instead of CRJ700... hasn't QX/AS been looking at the CRJ900 also?

You read my mind!
 
dw9115
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:43 am

Sioux Falls South Dakota (FSD) has been begging Frontier for some time now to come to town and compete against United on the Denver route that has 95% load factor on 3 Daily CRJ 200 and 2 Daily CRJ 700 (ones with first class cabin) flights. The city has said that would pay frontier to come to town but Frontier has said they would like to but they have no available aircraft maybe this all change that now!
 
ScottB
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 40):
However, as for several airlines, the value is in the feed it provides.

Which I am fairly certain I stated in the preceding half of the sentence...

Quoting ScottB (Reply 13):
perhaps from the standpoint of incremental mainline revenue and/or market development it does



Quoting Mariner (Reply 40):
I wonder why you call it Lynx?

My guess was an internal code name, appropriate given the animal tails and the homophone.

I think that in some ways, it's a good move, since they'll gain access to revenue streams which won't see yield erosion from Southwest. The problem is that running two different airlines and operating yet another fleet type will bring costs up, and the regional business only seems to be profitable for the contract operators these days.
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:56 am

Next question: where is Frontier going to park 'em all?

Frontier has just come through a major crisis of gate space at DEN. There are four more United A gates to come to them.

Now, I understand that the 10 x Q400's won't use mainline gates, but gee, that regional apron is going to get crowded, especially if they exercise the options for another 10.

The extra 11 x Jet Express CR7's could use mainline gates - but will Frontier have enough mainline gates to cope, given the additonal mainline aircraft that are coming?

A happy problem.  Smile

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 45):
Which I am fairly certain I stated in the preceding half of the sentence...

And I was just pointing out what you missed - that the operation has been/is stand alone profitable at times.

Given that the contract with Horizon was signed when oil was at $30 bbl, I think it is fair to assume that in the early days, the operation was planned to make more - or lose less.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 45):
they'll gain access to revenue streams which won't see yield erosion from Southwest.

I would guess - I would hope - there is rather more to this than just a knee jerk reaction to Southwest.

???

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting Kohflot (Reply 12):
I wouldn't be surprised if the Montana cities (BIL, BZN, MSO, GTF, FCA) are on the radar with the new Q400 operation. Perhaps that's leading to frostier relations with QX, as a new 'low-cost' entrant in those cities could lower yields quite a bit.

Billings is already served by F9 through JetExpress (Horizon), so it hasn't been a problem for QX/AS so far.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 26):
Billings/Helena

Why would they serve HLN? HLN is a dying market. Airlines are constantly cutting back HLN service.
Good goes around!
 
as739x
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RE: F9 Buys 10 Q400's, Seeks Regional Jet Expansion

Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:45 am

SANfan:

SFO does not allow prop at the gate, so operating F9 from gates 41,43 with Q400's won't work.

LAX is running pretty tight on gates during peak times in terminal 3. This is the problem AS/QX is facing here.

SAN I know very little about, but I dont see the need for central valley to SAN service. Skywest and Eagle would have jumped on it if the demand was there.

Just my opinion!

ASLAX
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"