8herveg
Topic Author
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Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:05 pm

Hi guys,

I was wondering why there wasnt a Lufthansa service between Heathrow and Berlin? Surely as it is the capital, it would be the most likely route out of all the german cities that Lufthansa serves?

Any thoughts?
 
TriStar500
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:11 pm

LH no longer serves prestige/ political routes, they are concentrating on commercially viable ones. The BER-LON market is a highly competitive one with a plethora of LCC's (plus BA) serving the market, so it financially not advisable to serve this route and waste valuable LHR slots on such a point-to-point-service.

[Edited 2006-09-07 12:11:53]
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mainMAN
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:33 pm

Historically LH weren't allowed to serve BER from LHR, or anywhere else.

Business ties between the UK and Berlin aren't that big either, which is why there are only BA ERJ services from MAN and BHX but many more services to FRA, DUS, HAJ etc.(for example)
 
cornish
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:36 pm

Quoting MainMAN (Reply 2):
Historically LH weren't allowed to serve BER from LHR, or anywhere else.

Nope - not even from West Germany. That was down to the likes of BA, AF and Pan-Am to do that for many years.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
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LTU932
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:30 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 3):
Nope - not even from West Germany. That was down to the likes of BA, AF and Pan-Am to do that for many years.

That ban was lifted in 1990 just after the re-unification. I don't understand though why LH or any other German airline was banned from BER for over 41 years?
 
USPIT10L
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:53 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 4):
That ban was lifted in 1990 just after the re-unification. I don't understand though why LH or any other German airline was banned from BER for over 41 years?

That's part of the treaty ending WWII and dividing up Germany. The Allies got to fly from Berlin, as it was a divided city. Only until Pan Am sold their IGS division was LH able to get into East Germany. They couldn't fly to LEJ, ERF, or BER.
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apodino
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:31 am

Doesn't LH still fly Avro's or 146's from LCY to TXL? I remember 5 years ago I had to book a flight from London to Berlin and the only option I had was British Airways. That also required me to do a LGW-LHR connection as well.
 
cornish
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 6):
Doesn't LH still fly Avro's or 146's from LCY to TXL?

Nope. LH fly a lot of Avros/146s out of LCY, but not to Berlin.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 6):
I remember 5 years ago I had to book a flight from London to Berlin and the only option I had was British Airways.

Until the LCCs came that was the only direct way.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
LH121GLA
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:55 am

LH used to operate LGW-TXL - possibly LHR-TXL too IIRC - (as well as NUE & BRE) from LHR/LGW. There unprofitable LHR routes were given up for use of their LHR slots on additional services to FRA and MUC. Also - I believe, possibly within the last year or 2 there was a Team Lufthansa service from LCY to THF - and possibly operated by turboprop equipment?
 
Sabena332
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:12 am

Quoting LH121GLA (Reply 8):
Also - I believe, possibly within the last year or 2 there was a Team Lufthansa service from LCY to THF - and possibly operated by turboprop equipment?

I believe that it is already 3 or 4 years ago but I am not sure. The flights were operated by Eurowings with BAe-146 equipment in full EW livery (not with Team Lufthansa livery).

There were also LCY-DTM flights by Eurowings, these flights were operated with the ATR 42's. Maybe that is the reason why you thought of turboprobs.

Patrick
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by188b
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 9):

I believe that it is already 3 or 4 years ago but I am not sure. The flights were operated by Eurowings with BAe-146 equipment in full EW livery (not with Team Lufthansa livery).

There were also LCY-DTM flights by Eurowings, these flights were operated with the ATR 42's. Maybe that is the reason why you thought of turboprobs.

Patrick

Actually I flew the LCY-THF route 2-3 years ago, the outbound sector (friday)was flown by eurowings and the inbound sector (sunday) was flown by a augsburg airways prop aircraft in Lufthansa Livery
next flights : BD LHR-TXL J, FR SXF-STN Y, SN BRU-LHR Y, MA LHR-BUD Y, BA BUD-LHR J, BA LCY-SNN-JFK J, BA JFK-LHR J, BA
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:24 am

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 5):
That's part of the treaty ending WWII and dividing up Germany. The Allies got to fly from Berlin, as it was a divided city. Only until Pan Am sold their IGS division was LH able to get into East Germany. They couldn't fly to LEJ, ERF, or BER.

I don't get your point. West Berlin was part of W Germany. Do you mean LH was not allowed to fly out W Berlin? Who was allowed to operate domestic flights then?

[Edited 2006-09-08 01:26:32]
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Sabena332
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:33 am

Quoting BY188B (Reply 10):
Actually I flew the LCY-THF route 2-3 years ago, the outbound sector (friday)was flown by eurowings and the inbound sector (sunday) was flown by a augsburg airways prop aircraft in Lufthansa Livery

Very interesting, I didn't know that Augsburg was serving this route as well.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
Delta777Jet
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:50 am

West German Airlines were not allowed to fly over the GDR (DDR)! Only Pan Am , TWA, British Airways and Air France (Euroberlin -joint venture between AF (51%) and LH (49%) ) were allowed to fly between West Berlin and West Germany ! PAN AM had a big hub in TXl serving HAM, HAJ, DTM, DUS, CGN, STR, NUE, FRA, MUC with a mix of B-732, B-721, B-722 and later A-300/310, NUE,DTM,HAJ,HAM (some flights) were operated by ATR-42 (dba. PAN AM EXPRESS) called PAN AM IGS (Internal Germany Services), TWA flew FRA-TXL with 721/722 etc.
B-717/722/737-200/300/400/500/600/700/800/900/B-747-100/200/400/SP/8i/B-752/3/B-762/3/4/B-772/LR/300ER/B-788/DC-10-10/30/L-1011-1/500/MD-81/82/83/90/A-319/320/321/AB6/312/313/332/333/342/343/346/359/388/TU154/IL-18/ATR-42/72/DH4/DH3/E145/E170/190/CR2/7/9
 
haggis79
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 11):
West Berlin was part of W Germany.

no, it was not... it was integrated with the FRG in many ways, but not legally part of it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Berlin

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 11):
Do you mean LH was not allowed to fly out W Berlin?

neither in nor out, that's correct

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 11):
Who was allowed to operate domestic flights then?

AF, BA and Pan Am, plus their subsidiaries (there was, for example, a carrier called Euroberlin France - owned to 51% by AF and to 49% by LH). Pan Am's clippers were all around my hometown airport (NUE) at that time for flights to and from BER and FRA....
300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
 
mainMAN
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:58 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 11):
I don't get your point. West Berlin was part of W Germany.

No it wasn't part of West Germany. Politically it was just West Berlin, administered by Britain, France and the US, and not by the German Government in Bonn.
 
maperrin
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:23 am

I'll have to fly Lisbon-Berlin and Berlin-Athens at the end of the week. No direct flights with LH ! Berlin-Athens is perfectly well served by EasyJet ! Very strange LH policy !
 
AirBerlin
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:35 pm

All of your points may be somewhat valid but LH could easily send 3 daily crj's just like it does to brussels vienna and zurich. The reason is that demand for frankfurt connection to the US would diminish because of all the viable star connections from LHR, (UA, BMI). I have heard this from an LH employee. They want to keep the FRA flights filled.

Alex
 
HT
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:02 pm

Quoting MainMAN (Reply 2):
Business ties between the UK and Berlin aren't that big either, which is why there are only BA ERJ services from MAN and BHX but many more services to FRA, DUS, HAJ etc.(for example)

HAJ gets served by BA also from MAN and BHX with E145 only; no more flights to LGW or even LHR on BA (down from 3 flights daily).

Quoting AirBerlin (Reply 17):
All of your points may be somewhat valid but LH could easily send 3 daily crj's just like it does to brussels vienna and zurich.

Are you really suggesting to spoil 3 valuable (!) LHR-slots by bringing in a CRJ ?

Quoting AirBerlin (Reply 17):
The reason is that demand for frankfurt connection to the US would diminish because of all the viable star connections from LHR, (UA, BMI).

Could StarAlliances longhaul-network out of LHR care for an substancial increase of pax transferring from shorthaul feeder flights ?
I doubt it.
And: Who really wants to transfer between terminals at LHR if more convenient (and often faster) options are available at other airports.
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
Humberside
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:37 pm

Could LH successfully restart LCY-THF with of their regional partners? It would be very useful for business passengers and also allow them to serve the LON-BER market. Maybe Cirrus with a LH codeshare would be best?
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LH121GLA
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:15 pm

LH's international offerings to & from BER may change when BBI opens - but will they have the need for a 3rd hub airport?
 
keesje
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:37 pm

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 1):
LH no longer serves prestige/ political routes, they are concentrating on commercially viable ones.

So all high Berlin based high value frequent flyers, politicians, etc are not able to fly to LHR with Lufthansa?

You can fly to LHR from every medium size town in europe multiple times a day.

I would expect 6-10 flights a day from BER. Odd indeed.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
TriStar500
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:58 pm

Quoting LH121GLA (Reply 20):
LH's international offerings to & from BER may change when BBI opens - but will they have the need for a 3rd hub airport?

At least LH won't have the need. But that is a totally different topic, which comes up every now and then when there are news about the new BBI or the impending closure of THF.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 21):
I would expect 6-10 flights a day from BER. Odd indeed.

If the yield is just not there, it would not make any sense. That's why LH decided to use their LHR slots and aircraft differently. No conspiracies, just plain business sense. And given the healthy financial state of the LH Group, it doesn't seem like they are doing something wrong when they keep staying away from prestige routes.  Smile
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
keesje
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:11 pm

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 22):
At least LH won't have the need.

That's true. And apart from that BA offers an excellent alternative. KLM to traditionally takes a good chunkl of this market (also 5 return flight a day).

Lufthansa has better things to do.

 Wink


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dazeflight
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:30 pm

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 13):
West German Airlines were not allowed to fly over the GDR (DDR)!



Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 5):
They couldn't fly to LEJ, ERF, or BER.

LH did serve LEJ as the first Airport from FRA starting on August 10, 1989 - months before the fall of the Berlin Wall and the reunification.

Additionally, during the Leipzig Trade Fair, LH served LEJ from several airports in West Germany starting in the early 80s. I believe they had kind of an agreement with IF to not serve the same routes. A.f.a.i.r, IF served LEJ-HAM and LEJ-STR, while LH served LEJ-CGN/DUS/FRA. I Could be wrong on the exact routes, though.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 21):
You can fly to LHR from every medium size town in europe multiple times a day.

Just as you can from Berlin - with BA, 5x daily. Additionally, there are 5 U2 frequencies to LTN and 2+4 frequencies to STN, with FR/AB. That's 16 daily freqs the London...

ciao
Daniel
 
TriStar500
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:31 pm

Don't forget that for KL and BA, Berlin is the spoke of a hub route. For LH, this is chiefly point-to-point, so there is hardly any additional potential from higher-yielding transfer connections worldwide to increase the economic viability of such services.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
sorayafaradiba
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:55 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 21):
So all high Berlin based high value frequent flyers, politicians, etc are not able to fly to LHR with Lufthansa?

You can fly to LHR from every medium size town in europe multiple times a day.

I would expect 6-10 flights a day from BER. Odd indeed.

well...there are not many "high value frequent flyers" in berlin. berlin is actually a very poor place. there ist not much business. if you check certain figures such as income, unemployment berlin is far worse than most other places in germany!
 
HT
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting LH121GLA (Reply 20):
LH's international offerings to & from BER may change when BBI opens - but will they have the need for a 3rd hub airport?

With LH`s current investments into FRA and MUC, it is highly unlikely that "BBI" (SXF) will become a third hub for LH in Germany.
Plus they have ZRH as another hub, which actually would make SXF the 4th hub.
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
vv701
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RE: Why No LH Service Between Heathrow & Berlin?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 1):
so it financially not advisable to serve this route and waste valuable LHR slots on such a point-to-point-service.



Quoting HT (Reply 18):
Are you really suggesting to spoil 3 valuable (!) LHR-slots by bringing in a CRJ ?

Valuable slots wasted by using regional aircraft? Of course not! Juat look at the photo data base. Put in 'Lufthansa', 'LHR' and 'Canadair RJ'. Only 95 pictures! Here's just one:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sergio Domingos


They are in on a daily basis from German airports like STR - check out the LH timertable. Put in 'Lufthansa', 'LHR' and 'BAe146/Avro RJ'. Now you'll get another 32 images because they seem to replace their Canadair aircraft with RJ85s from time to time. Indeed I cannot remember one visit to LHR this year - and I have made a large number - when I have not seen an LH RJ there

Lufthansa, bmi and KLM are the only airlines with sufficient slots at LHR to operate regional aircraft into the airport. bmi operate the ERJ145 and KLM the F50 - the only turboproip aircraft scheduled to serve LHR on a daily basis.

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