LY777
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AA:why No 777s To France?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:44 pm

I was wondering why AA does not send its 777s to France and if they intend to do so.
Thanks
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TUGMASTER
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:08 am

LY777

Basically.....commonality.......

Crew's can fly anything.....
Equipment swaps are easy....
Spare part inventory....

and finally.... it's only France....(just joking)

rgds

TUGMASTER
 
bartond
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:09 am

I believe that a few years ago AA decided to choose Frankfurt and LGW/LHR as its three airports to which it would send 777's. Places like ZRH, MAN, and BRU were all designated as 763 destinations. Something to do with ease of logistics although LGW and FRA both get 763's from different locations, too. I believe the ORD-FRA flight on AA is with a 763 and they switch in a 763 on one of the daily DFW-LGW flights at certain times of the year, too.

I remember not too long ago when AA sent a 777 to CDG but it has been a while - now it's just 763's.
 
ssides
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:24 am

Now that AA's 763s operate in a two-class format, the 777s are reserved for routes with the most premium traffic. Generally speaking, there is not as much premium traffic on AA's routes to CDG as there are to London and Frankfurt, hence the lack of 777s. This, plus the desire for fleet commonality on a per-destination basis, drives the decision. Of course, AA does have one 763 on the DFW-LGW route, but I wish they'd take it off and add another 777!
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
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Stitch
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:28 am

Like UA, AA's service to CDG is pretty much pure O&D demand. So, as noted, mostly like it is a mix of insufficient overall traffic and not enough First Class traffic to justify tasking a 777 to the route.
 
LY777
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:13 am

And yet, AF uses 772s and 77W to the USA which have both first class!!!So, why doesn't AA compete with AF?I mean AF Biz Class(especially the new one)is far better than AA Biz Class, why doesn't AA react?
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Stitch
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:15 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 5):
And yet, AF uses 772s and 77W to the USA which have both first class!!!

It helps that CDG is AF's hub and therefore has both plenty of O&D as well as connecting traffic which helps fill the plane in all three classes.

Quoting LY777 (Reply 5):
I mean AF Biz Class(especially the new one)is far better than AA Biz Class, why doesn't AA react?

AA is reacting. They have started installing a new Business Class, starting with their 763 fleet which does service CDG.
 
b777a340fan
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:30 am

I assume pure supply & demand economics. Why should AA send over a 777 when the demand isn't there and when a 767 is enough?
 
BigJimFX
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:12 am

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 9):
I assume pure supply & demand economics. Why should AA send over a 777 when the demand isn't there and when a 767 is enough?

IMO their kicking AA (LOL couldn't resist) dead horse by beating on DL. Let them keep ruining themselves by not using economical practices.

BTW I'm not a fan of AA but they are pretty good at taking out competitors. It will probably bite them on the a** someday... But not today
I'd like to thank me for flying Me Airways...
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 5):
And yet, AF uses 772s and 77W to the USA which have both first class!!!

And also 744s and 340s and 330s (SFO, MIA, CVG, DTW, PHL, EWR, BOS, ORD, +?) with lower business seats /economy seats ratios, and no first class. Depends on the market served by the route.
When I doubt... go running!
 
MCOflyer
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:19 am

I agree the 777's are needed for that premium service. How many 763ER will have the new interior by next year?

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
commavia
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:34 am

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I was wondering why AA does not send its 777s to France and if they intend to do so.

AA pulled their 777s out of the Paris market for three reasons:

1) The market was not sufficiently premium enough to justify AA's most premium aircraft, the 3-class FJY 777. AA felt that two-class 767s were better suited to the market.

2) AA was trying to simplify its foreign outstations by reducing the number of aircraft the aircraft got. Thus, LHR went all 777 and CDG went all 767.

3) AA simply didn't have enough 777s to go around. AA has some extras now because of the ending of the SJC-NRT and DFW-KIX routes, but those are going to be put to very good [profitable] use this winter on MIA-EZE, and AA hopes to have them flying on DFW-PEK next year.

As to AA's long-term intentions, there was a rumor a few years back that AA was looking at putting 777s back on the two flights they had them on back in summer '02, namely 48/49 DFW-CDG and 44/45 JFK-CDG. I personally think that these two routes, of all of AA's flights to Paris, could probably support the more premium cabin mix and upgraded capacity of the 777, but alas, that's just me. Nonetheless, Paris won't be getting 777s anytime soon as AA doesn't have 777 capacity to spare and definitely doesn't have a plane for either route right now. Maybe next decade when AA takes delivery of more 777s.

(Completely unrelated sidenote: but I also think MIA-MAD could probably support the 777, now with Iberia's pull-down on the route.)

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 13):
How many 763ER will have the new interior by next year?

The first 767s to be getting the mod work done, besides the single plane already fitted with the new cabin, probably won't be until the late winter or early spring (I'm guessing February-March-April timeframe). They want to fly this single 767 around the system, a variety of markets, cities, routes, ranges, etc., to see how it performs and how people -- FAs, maintenance, customers, etc. -- like it. Then they'll roll it out on the rest of the 767-300s starting in the spring, with the 777s slated to get theirs starting in fall 2007 and be done by mid-2008.
 
jacobin777
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:44 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
3) AA simply didn't have enough 777s to go around. AA has some extras now because of the ending of the SJC-NRT and DFW-KIX routes, but those are going to be put to very good [profitable] use this winter on MIA-EZE, and AA hopes to have them flying on DFW-PEK next year.

they usually get some extra 777's during the winter as they cut their LAX-LHR, ORD-LHR and possibly JFK-LHR by one flight during the winter...

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):

(Completely unrelated sidenote: but I also think MIA-MAD could probably support the 777, now with Iberia's pull-down on the route.)

 checkmark 
"Up the Irons!"
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):

they usually get some extra 777's during the winter as they cut their LAX-LHR, ORD-LHR and possibly JFK-LHR by one flight during the winter...

JFK-LHR is only cut by a Sunday flight that moves to MIA, but, yes, LAX/ORD-LHR lose a flight each.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
(Completely unrelated sidenote: but I also think MIA-MAD could probably support the 777, now with Iberia's pull-down on the
route.)

Agreed, but Iberia pulled back up slightly, with MIA-MAD at 11x weekly now. Plus Air Madrid starts 4x weekly MIA-MAD this winter. I think a second daily MIA-MAD would be more effective, IMO, especially considering Madrid is a key European hub for oneWorld.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
AA simply didn't have enough 777s to go around. AA has some extras now because of the ending of the SJC-NRT and DFW-KIX routes, but those are going to be put to very good [profitable] use this winter on MIA-EZE, and AA hopes to have them flying on DFW-PEK next year.

The MIA-EZE 777 switch is indefinite. The DFW-PEK planes, if approved, will come from the temporary switch to 777s on JFK-EZE.

[Edited 2006-09-09 00:00:59]
a.
 
commavia
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
I think a second daily MIA-MAD would be more effective, IMO, especially considering Madrid is a key European hub for oneWorld.

Agreed -- either or. An upgrade of 68/69 to a 777, or a second 767 flight, I think both would be successful. A second flight, time to leave MIA later -- around 2200 or 2300 -- and return back to MIA arriving later in the afternoon, and thus shortening the connections to South America, could do excellent. But I tend to think that a 777 would be great for the route because this route -- particularly with all the connections AA offers -- would definitely be able to support the more premium cabin mix.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
The MIA-EZE 777 switch is permanent. The DFW-PEK planes, if approved, will come from the temporary switch to 777s on JFK-EZE.

Thanks for the correction, MAH.
 
jacobin777
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
JFK-LHR is only cut by a Sunday flight that moves to MIA,

thanks...clarifies things up... thumbsup 

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
The MIA-EZE 777 switch is permanent. The DFW-PEK planes, if approved, will come from the temporary switch to 777s on JFK-EZE.

they need to start ORD-HKG.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
N1120A
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 5):
And yet, AF uses 772s and 77W to the USA which have both first class!!!So, why doesn't AA compete with AF?I mean AF Biz Class(especially the new one)is far better than AA Biz Class, why doesn't AA react?

AF has a vice grip on US-France premium traffic, particularly from the west coast.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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Stitch
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:09 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
AF has a vice grip on US-France premium traffic, particularly from the west coast.

Yup. They successfully chased UA out of the SFO-CDG market because while UA could fill up the back of their 763s all day long, First Class and Business Class sales were very poor.

Perhaps the new Business Class will help UA. I know they're updating First, as well, but I believe the seating upgrades are only planned for the Suite on the 747s and 777s and not the seat on the 767.
 
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fxramper
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:12 am

I'd really enjoy seeing AA metal back at ORY.  yes 

Is it French authority that control it, or does AA still own rights to fly there.

Regards.
 
N1120A
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
Yup. They successfully chased UA out of the SFO-CDG market because while UA could fill up the back of their 763s all day long, First Class and Business Class sales were very poor.

Same thing when American ran LAX-ORY and LAX-CDG

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
Perhaps the new Business Class will help UA. I know they're updating First, as well, but I believe the seating upgrades are only planned for the Suite on the 747s and 777s and not the seat on the 767.

If United is smart, they will go two class on their 767s since there is no possible way to put actual pod-suites on a 767 without tearing up the floor.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
goldorak
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
They successfully chased UA out of the SFO-CDG market because while UA could fill up the back of their 763s all day long, First Class and Business Class sales were very poor.

It seems also that AF is making times hard to UA on CDG-IAD as shown by the evolution of the number of daily flights between the 2 cities :
- 1 AF & 1 UA /day about 7 years ago
- then 2 AF & 2 UA/day before 9/11
- currently 3 AF & 1 UA/day
I fly this route 2 or 3 times a year on AF and I can tell the flights are always full in the 3 classes F/J/Y
 
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Stitch
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:20 am

UA still flies the 777 between IAD and CDG, do they not? So I guess even with one daily sortie, it's holding it's own.
 
goldorak
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):
UA still flies the 777 between IAD and CDG, do they not?

yes, they do
 
b777a340fan
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):
UA still flies the 777 between IAD and CDG, do they not? So I guess even with one daily sortie, it's holding it's own.

DL also operates a daily flight from ATL on its 772 as well.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting FXramper (Reply 21):
I'd really enjoy seeing AA metal back at ORY. yes

Is it French authority that control it, or does AA still own rights to fly there.

AA lost the rights to fly to Orly, despite the fact they never wanted to move to CDG. Recently, a new airline, Elysair, applied with DOT for Newark-Orly service. American Airlines responded and told DOT that the application should be rejected unless AA (and other US airlines) are allowed to fly to Orly.

After the CDG terminal collapse, there was talk that AA was going to move back to Orly, but AA put out a PR announcing that would not be the case. I think, in the future, AA would be wise to move back to Orly. It is more centrally located, offering an advantage for business travelers, and AA does not have any partner hubs in Paris that nessitate CDG. They also serve Paris from three of it's largest US O&D markets - Miami, New York City, and Chicago - which can further boost an Orly advantage.
a.
 
FURUREFA
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:40 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 27):
They also serve Paris from three of it's largest US O&D markets - Miami, New York City, and Chicago - which can further boost an Orly advantage.

And BOS seasonally (right now, which is being cut  Sad).

Matt
 
dank
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:07 pm

Quoting Ssides (Reply 3):
Of course, AA does have one 763 on the DFW-LGW route, but I wish they'd take it off and add another 777!

They can't do this unless they want to run all three LGW flights on 777s (the 2 DFW flights + the RDU flight) or fly a likely unprofitable repositioning flight on a 763 to RDU. Personally, I benefit from this 'problem' by having the 777 here at RDU  Smile.

cheers.
 
commavia
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:09 pm

Quoting Dank (Reply 29):
They can't do this unless they want to run all three LGW flights on 777s

That's not really much of an issue, as LGW-RDU-LGW is going back to a 777 starting end of October. It is only getting downgraded to a 767 temporarily. The LGW operation could easily be run with an all-777 rotation, but for the fact that AA doesn't have the 777 capacity. It's aircraft availability, not scheduling, that is preventing AA78/78 DFW-LGW-DFW from going 777 along with AA50/51.
 
dank
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:50 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 30):
That's not really much of an issue, as LGW-RDU-LGW is going back to a 777 starting end of October. It is only getting downgraded to a 767 temporarily. The LGW operation could easily be run with an all-777 rotation, but for the fact that AA doesn't have the 777 capacity. It's aircraft availability, not scheduling, that is preventing AA78/78 DFW-LGW-DFW from going 777 along with AA50/51.

That's true, it really is a combination of factors. The RDU 777 would probably be better utilitized on the DFW run, but they can't do it without having an extra 777 to do the RDU run. My guess, though, is that the RDU run will continue to be a seasonal downgrade to the 767 during summer months. That means that at least 1 of the DFW runs will have to be a 767 and one a 777 for as I can forsee (and I'd hazard to guess that AA will be ordering 787s before 777s).

cheers.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:39 pm

AA already has more 777s on order but none are currently set to arrive for camou five years.
a.
 
mandargb
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:05 pm

Wasnt AA flying SJC-CDG a 777 few years ago?
I think they had a daily service going on at least for year and suring 2000 or 2001?
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:05 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
but I also think MIA-MAD could probably support the 777, now with Iberia's pull-down on the route.

Agreed as well. That is indeed a prime route, Iberia sends A340-600's as well as -300's, like JFK, and Air Madrid will be sending A330-300's. The A340-600 and A330-300 of course have more capacity then their counter parts.

Not sure if this would be a good route but I was thinking that maybe a JFK-MAD flight on American with 767-300's might be able to pull in some money.

Back on topic ZRH, like CDG, was also served with a 777-200 from DFW.
No Vueling No Party
 
N1120A
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:16 pm

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 26):
DL also operates a daily flight from ATL on its 772 as well.

Also from CVG

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 27):
After the CDG terminal collapse, there was talk that AA was going to move back to Orly, but AA put out a PR announcing that would not be the case. I think, in the future, AA would be wise to move back to Orly. It is more centrally located, offering an advantage for business travelers, and AA does not have any partner hubs in Paris that nessitate CDG. They also serve Paris from three of it's largest US O&D markets - Miami, New York City, and Chicago - which can further boost an Orly advantage.

The problem is, AA can't get much of any interline traffic, even non-partner connections. Further, they would have to undertake the expense of moving again. Beyond that, Orly's location is not all that much closer that CDG when you consider that the transport from CDG is a one seat ride and also allows for train connections throughout France.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
goldorak
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:25 pm

Quoting Mandargb (Reply 33):
Wasnt AA flying SJC-CDG a 777 few years ago?
I think they had a daily service going on at least for year and suring 2000 or 2001?

Yes, they did but as you said it didn't last very long (less than a year as far as I remember). I'm not absolutely sure but I think the route was done with a B763
 
DFW13L
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:45 pm

Quoting Dank (Reply 31):
My guess, though, is that the RDU run will continue to be a seasonal downgrade to the 767 during summer months. That means that at least 1 of the DFW runs will have to be a 767 and one a 777 for as I can forsee

That's unless they were to have all 777s on 50/51 78/79 and the RDU 174/173, then when time comes to downgrade RDU to 763, add a third DFW-LGW frequency, flight 80/81 which rotates the 763 in and out of RDU, like they have done in the past couple summers. Doing that increases DFW capacity to LGW while it frees up a 777 on a 3/2 ratio (from 2 X DFW LGW and 1 X RDU LGW that has to rotate in and out to just 2 X DFW LGW)
See, I knew American Eagle was first class all along!
 
jacobin777
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 pm

Quoting Mandargb (Reply 33):
Wasnt AA flying SJC-CDG a 777 few years ago?
I think they had a daily service going on at least for year and suring 2000 or 2001?



Quoting Goldorak (Reply 36):
I think the route was done with a B763

it was indeed with a 763......the route lost money from the word "go"..
"Up the Irons!"
 
AA767400
Posts: 1892
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 5):
And yet, AF uses 772s and 77W to the USA which have both first class!!!So, why doesn't AA compete with AF?I

Because AA is not supported by the government like AF does. AF has the money to have 777s,330s,340s,737s,319s,744s and so on. They also have a HUB, and endless spending on magazines in their terminals/aircrafts, money to upgrade their product every other quarter, and money to still have their employees paid well.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 7):
And what a modern, beautiful business class it is?

My friend you are last to speak of any cabin since your DL has the worst C class seats of all! And the recent upgrade you made to it is FAR behind AA, so I fail to realize how it is not as modern. By the way, plan to get out of bankruptcy anytime soon?

Now note my sarcasm.  wink 
"The low fares airline."
 
tundra767
Posts: 400
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:47 am

I miss AA's 777 to CDG. Was always easy to get a seat in a Premium Cabin.
 
jacobin777
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting Tundra767 (Reply 40):
I miss AA's 777 to CDG. Was always easy to get a seat in a Premium Cabin.

maybe that's why they ended the 777 to CDG... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
tundra767
Posts: 400
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RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:58 am

I am sure thats why it ended. Though I hear that if AA had more 777's CDG would be one of the stations to get 777 service. How is cargo on the market?
 
AOMlover
Posts: 1191
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2001 6:03 pm

RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 39):
Because AA is not supported by the government like AF does

Please update your beliefs about AF...right now they're making much, much money and they don't need the government for that.
 
AA767400
Posts: 1892
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting AOMlover (Reply 43):
Please update your beliefs about AF...right now they're making much, much money and they don't need the government for that.

They still have the government.
"The low fares airline."
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:56 am

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 12):



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 12):
What are you talking about? Oh boohoo it's so bland looking. Cry me a river, you haven't sat in it yet. When you do, please complain about it.

And you know this how?
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
arturo88
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:37 am

RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:57 pm

I think the 777 is to much for that rout and the prefer to use it in a more demanded one.
 
elmothehobo
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:10 am

RE: AA:why No 777s To France?

Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:43 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 45):

My apologies. I just grow tired of people complaining about aircraft seats before riding in them. I heard the same thing about Swiss' J class seats, they ended up being far more comfortable than I expected.



Quoting AA767400 (Reply 44):
They still have the government.

The government is a shareholder, but they don't receive monetary support from the government - the EU has essentially state aid to airlines without aid (a la Alitalia). Yes, they did get government support in the past, however, Air France gets no more money than American gets from the US government (remember that Bailout American and the rest of the airlines got?)

Quoting Tundra767 (Reply 42):

I would suspect Santiago de Chile (SCL) would get 777s before CDG.

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Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos