quickmover
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:28 am

Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:19 am

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060908/airtran_mover.html?.v=1

A mistake IMO.
F9, WN, and B6 are all expanding. FL can't solve the capacity problems of the industry by cutting while everyone else is expanding. If their model works, fly them where they make money. They are only helping their competition. I sure wouldn't make a knee jerk reaction for the next 2 years, based on one soft month. They've been crying about not having enough lift to take advantage of opportunitys out there and now a complete 180. Fuel getting cheaper. Nows the time to grow before the majors restructure.

Maybe this will finally bring about a labor agreement.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:36 am

Open delivery slots for 2007 and 2008; Gee, I wonder who might be interested in those?  scratchchin 
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
AirTranTUS
Posts: 3313
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:12 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:46 am

If they had more destinations than mainly East Coast ones, could they be doing better? Their route map is the opposite of Alaska's, lots of routes out east with a few out to the west. Where Alaska is lots out west, with a few, but growing, out east.
I love ASO!
 
socalfive
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 5:37 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 1):
Open delivery slots for 2007 and 2008; Gee, I wonder who might be interested in those?

LOL... yeah, don't we all!  Wink
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3670
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:27 am

AirTran grew tremendously as well in the last few years, with new 717s and 737s EVERY MONTH to fill up. They only slow down their GROWTH. Nothing too dramatic and comparible to JetBlue which offers a few current and future A-320s for sale or lease.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
Nothing too dramatic and comparible to JetBlue which offers a few current and future A-320s for sale or lease.

They got rid of some older frames and changed the delivery schedule for future frames.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
quickmover
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:28 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:36 am

The fares haven't come down that much and fuel is getting cheaper. I can't understand what they are thinking. WN will probably take these jets and put them into service against Airtran flights at places like MCO, BWI, or MDW.

That reservation system snafu they had a month or so ago probably caused the biggest negative for this quarters numbers.
 
lowecur
Posts: 512
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:18 pm

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:53 am

Jetblue was the first to reduce, and it's my opinion they will sell another 5 or 10 in both 2007 and 2008.
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 3):
Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 1):
Open delivery slots for 2007 and 2008; Gee, I wonder who might be interested in those?

LOL... yeah, don't we all!

What am I missing?
 
gr8slvrflt
Posts: 1449
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 10:53 pm

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:00 am

AirTran has not said anything about cancelling any orders. They have previously discussed the possibility of leasing out new 737s, at a profit, on a short term basis.
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 9):
AirTran has not said anything about cancelling any orders. They have previously discussed the possibility of leasing out new 737s, at a profit, on a short term basis.

In reaction to the weaker demand, AirTran said it will reduce growth in 2007 and 2008 by cutting the number of airplanes it plans to acquire. Previously, the company said it would acquire 19 airplanes over 2007 and 2008, but now says it will buy less.

I didn't get that from use of "acquire" and "buy" in the article, but who knows?

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 8):
What am I missing?

Gary Kelly said some weeks ago that we're in the market for some used -700s (and we've gotten one, so far) but if new aircraft were to become available, I think they'd be considered as well...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
ksupilot
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:27 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:22 am

After such a successful first quarter this is all a bit surprising. But it isn't like the are cut all their orders, just a portion of the 19.
From what I read there was no solid number out yet of how many they are actually cutting.
 
travatl
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:40 am

We're still getting the all the airplanes ordered, just not on the original delivery schedule (which was kinda steep for an airline our size anyways).

Oh well..... who knows? Maybe next year we'll close the doors completely, or announce double the amount of aircraft being delivered. That's the best/worst part of this industry, it's ups and downs.... I learned a long time ago to neither expect too much, nor to assume the worst.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:50 am

I think this qoute from the article says it all rather well:

"We haven't determined how many but it won't be a radical reduction," said Stan Gadek, AirTran chief financial officer, in an interview. "We'll still take a fair number of airplanes, but 19 is a lot of airplanes. We'll more closely match the number with the demand environment."

Very prudent of them if you ask me.
One Nation Under God
 
n471wn
Posts: 1342
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:53 am

Me thinks you are all missing the real reason for this---they will be able to pick up used 717's cheap in the next few years....no doubt about it
 
blsbls99
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:07 pm

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:58 am

Who will be selling used 717s for cheap over the next few years?
319 320 313 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 742 752 763 772 CRJ D9S ERJ EMB L10 M88 M90 SF3 AT4
 
D950
Posts: 472
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:17 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting Dbba (Reply 14):
they will be able to pick up used 717's cheap in the next few years....no doubt about it

From whom??
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
n471wn
Posts: 1342
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:25 am

Well for starters there are 3 in storage as we speak in Brisbane--formerly operated by Jetstar and if you go to the numerous fleet list sites you will see some very small fleets that will come on the market---this is a much better option for AirTran than buying new 737-700's.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting Dbba (Reply 17):
Well for starters there are 3 in storage as we speak in Brisbane--formerly operated by Jetstar and if you go to the numerous fleet list sites you will see some very small fleets that will come on the market---this is a much better option for AirTran than buying new 737-700's.

Not neccessarily...depends on the mission...they cant do ATL-LAX for example.
One Nation Under God
 
n471wn
Posts: 1342
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:40 am

Agree DAYflyer but that is why they have their 737's and Airtran's growth is generally going to be within the range of the 717---my contacts at AirTran tell me that they love the 717 and wish Boieng had agreed to the longer range model so that they did not have to buy 737's
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1487
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:44 am

The real question that most of you are missing is...Where in the world as AirTran going to put all that growth?

The network carriers are getting their legs back. ATL is full, AirTran doesn't really have an obvious #2 growth market. They obviously feel that success at their current rate of growth is going to diminish, so they have elected to do the prudent thing and scale back that growth.

Airtran is a very well-managed airline. Most of their management has experience at failed airlines that grew too fast. They don't make these decisions lightly. They certainly understand the issues involved much better than anyone on this message board.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 20):
The real question that most of you are missing is...Where in the world as AirTran going to put all that growth?

The network carriers are getting their legs back. ATL is full, AirTran doesn't really have an obvious #2 growth market. They obviously feel that success at their current rate of growth is going to diminish, so they have elected to do the prudent thing and scale back that growth.

Airtran is a very well-managed airline. Most of their management has experience at failed airlines that grew too fast. They don't make these decisions lightly. They certainly understand the issues involved much better than anyone on this message board.

So well said it needs repeating!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
flyabunch
Posts: 443
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:42 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:52 am

If they slow deliveries...instead of cancelling, that does not cause Boeing to slow production. They will simply reallocate the planes in production and I am sure that WN would be more than happy to have the extra slots that come available.

Mike
 
Clipper002
Posts: 659
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:24 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:57 am

Couldn't agree more than with Jetlanta and Luv2fly. Constant growth for growth's sake is a disaster in the waiting. It's time to slow down a little and reflect on where they have been, what has been succesful and what has failed and why. Then regroup and alter your strategies going forward. Prudent panning is the name of the successful company and has thus far proven to jave worked very well for AirTran under their current leadership.

Rgds,
Ed
Ed
 
quickmover
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:28 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 22):
I am sure that WN would be more than happy to have the extra slots that come available.

You hit the nail right on the head.
If FL's cost structure is similar to WN's and fuel prices starting to retreat on top of that, How is it that WN wants more lift and FL wants less? Loads are running in the 70-80% range. FL needs to continue adding flights from spoke cities to destinations other than ATL. That avoids the gate problem and follows the WN play book of several destinations from each city.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 20):
The network carriers are getting their legs back. ATL is full, AirTran doesn't really have an obvious #2 growth market.

I disagree; ATL is full but they have significant growth opportunities in IND where they are doing very well.
One Nation Under God
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:08 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 25):
I disagree; ATL is full but they have significant growth opportunities in IND where they are doing very well.

In addition you have CAK, BWI and MDW as well.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
quickmover
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:28 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting Clipper002 (Reply 23):
It's time to slow down a little and reflect on where they have been, what has been succesful and what has failed and why. Then regroup and alter your strategies going forward.

I can't see what has failed. They just said bookings backed off in late August, and as a result are looking to delay some deliverys over the next 2 years. Overreaction.

If you stand still, you wind up going backwards. Do they think they will do better once the majors are restructured and strong? The LCCs in general will not have this type of perfect storm again for a long long time. FL needs to accelerate growth, continue to build a network, and gain marketshare, not slow it down.
 
quickmover
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:28 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 25):
I disagree; ATL is full but they have significant growth opportunities in IND where they are doing very well.

Looks like Northwest agrees with you:

Northwest adds flights from Indianapolis
Business First of Louisville - 2:07 PM EDT Thursday
Print this Article Email this Article Reprints RSS Feeds Most Viewed Most Emailed
Northwest Airlines announced Thursday that it will expand its Indianapolis flight schedule for the second time this year with additional flights to New York's LaGuardia Airport and to Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Orlando and Tampa, Fla.

The added New York flight, to begin Nov. 1, will be the fourth nonstop flight from Indianapolis, according to a news release. The expansion also means that Northwest will start offering two flights per day between Indianapolis and all four cities that it serves in Florida.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5450
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 26):
you have CAK, BWI and MDW as well

I don't see huge growth potential at CAK just given the overall size of the Northeast Ohio market in comparison to similar markets with secondary airports. And while FL has carved out a bit of a niche for itself at BWI and MDW, Southwest rules the roost at those airports. AirTran has historically competed directly with Southwest on a very limited number of routes from BWI and MDW; largely just high-volume flying to Florida. It will be interesting to see if FL's BWI-DTW survives WN entering the market. Between WN and FL, the better economy class product is on Southwest (unless XM radio is your driving factor).

I don't know if it makes much sense for AirTran to take on used 717's from other operators unless they are able to obtain very low costs of leasing or ownership. The direct operating cost of the 737-700 is only slightly higher than the 717-200 and they get roughly 20 additional seats to sell.

Given AirTran's size, they, like jetBlue, have been adding quite a bit of new capacity based on year-over-year comparisons. I think it's difficult to maintain that sort of growth rate (on a percentage basis) for an extended period of time as the ability of the route system to absorb that growth becomes strained. That said, Southwest maintains growth rates of 8-10% which on an absolute basis is far greater than what AirTran and jetBlue are adding annually. However, they're also doing so on a much larger system and with a point-to-point network in which they hold leading share in a far greater number of markets.

I strongly doubt that AirTran management made this decision based solely on performance numbers from one month. It's very possible that the forward booking numbers have been looking pretty weak for the fall. I'm just as surprised as anyone else, though, given that they've been showing very impressive traffic and revenue gains of late.
 
Clipper002
Posts: 659
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:24 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:44 am

I can't see what has failed. They just said bookings backed off inrnlate August, and as a result are looking to delay some deliveries overrnthe next 2 years. Overreaction.

Just take SRQ as an example. SRQ/LGA, SRQ/BOS and SRQ/PHL all failures. And that's just one city in their framework. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge AirTran fan and also fly out of SRQ to the Northeast, but I felt those flights were doomed as soon as they started and I was correct. Let's look at DL with their huge buildup at JFK. For crying out loud Pan Am Express was flying Dash 8's to most of those cities back in the 80's and it was a huge failure there too. Of course DL can't find more than a couple of Dash 8's so they're substituting Beech 1900's instead.

No thanks, I'll stick with Joe Leonard and his philosophies until they're proven wrong which up to this point has not occurred.

Rgds,
Ed
Ed
 
User avatar
deltadawg
Posts: 868
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:56 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:51 am

I don't understand this move as well. I must agree that they are at places now that afford opportunity for both growth and profitability - such as IND, DAY, MSP and to some degree MCI as well as looking at places in the west. While I understand the move on one hand the other says "FL cannot concentrate solely on the East Coast forever".

The hub in ATL will stay there, they cannot grow until the second South Terminal is built. However, there are place like STL, SLC and SFO that could be very attractive to them.

Why could they not grab some of the vacant gates at STL and put together the same premise as MDW?
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 4763
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 31):


Why could they not grab some of the vacant gates at STL and put together the same premise as MDW?

I agree. 4 gates to start and see how it goes from there.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 20):


ATL is full, AirTran doesn't really have an obvious #2 growth market

MCO. It's the company headquarters and to me, an obvious market for an FL hub. Not a focus city as it is now, but a real hub with southbound flights to TPA, SRQ, RSW, PBI, FLL, MIA and some key Carribean spots: NAS, SDQ, POP, SJU, AUA etc. FL has alot of single or double daily flights out of MCO to places like CAK and PHF that probably couldn't support nonstops to places like SRQ and PBI, but could increase the MCO loads with some connecting pax.

There are also a few spots north of BWI that haven't been tapped by WN yet: SYR, PWM, EWR, LGA (slots permitting) that could strengthen the BWI operation. YYZ and YUL also come to mind for an increase in BWI options.

There are plenty of dots to connect in the FL system and new market possibilities that needn't have much if anything to do with ATL. They just have to get there before B6 does.
Coast to Coast and Border to Border, Ozark Flies YOUR Way!
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5188
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:43 am

I think Clipper002 has a very good handle on this. FL has real-time data to analyze every month. They have been doing very well, but they are also looking at trends. One trend -- perhaps somewhat remarkably -- has been a falloff in air travel since the new security procedures were put in place. Personally, I suspect that many people had put the events of 9/11 out of their minds and believed (correctly, I think) that their chances of having their aircraft blown up were less than having a safe fall on their heads while walking down the street. However, the latest plot made it clear that the infantesimal risk was still there, and the media dutifully amplified it, and it had an effect on bookings. CO noticed the effect as well. FL must be looking at a substantial fall-off in advance bookings that hasn't righted itself as the weeks went by. I think once we're past the fifth anniversary of 9/11, the media attention may diminish. However, given that there's an election in November, and the media and the loyal opposition are determined to attack Bush on the basis that "we're not really safe", maybe it won't. All of this scares people out of aircraft and into cars, where, ironically, they are less safe. Heck, California alone has the equivalent of -- what? -- 100 nonsurvivable 727 crashes a year in highway deaths? But it doesn't make the media like that.

In any event, by slowing growth, the only thing that FL will have to face is the accusation that they missed an opportunity to make *more* money, and that their aircraft are *too* full. Much better situation to be in that trying to explain to employees and shareholders why you are laying people off and parking airplanes.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18253
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:52 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 33):
Much better situation to be in that trying to explain to employees and shareholders why you are laying people off and parking airplanes.

 checkmark 

Airtran CEO Leonard has shown a remarkable abiity to read the market. If he is saying there are bumps ahead, then I would suspect that there are bumps ahead.

It isn't limited to Airtran. Continental's most recent revenue numbers were described as "disappointing".

Wise virgins are trimming their wicks and saving their oil.  Smile

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 32):
Not a focus city as it is now, but a real hub with southbound flights to TPA, SRQ, RSW, PBI, FLL, MIA and some key Carribean spots: NAS, SDQ, POP, SJU, AUA etc.

Unless they bring back JetConnect, you won't see a return of intra-Florida routes by FL. The Carribean idea sounds interesting though.......
 
Midway2AirTran
Posts: 847
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 7:34 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:24 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 34):
Airtran CEO Leonard has shown a remarkable ability to read the market. If he is saying there are bumps ahead, then I would suspect that there are bumps ahead.

I agree, but there is a lot of credit that needs to be paid to the rest of the leadership team and the many people that have lifted the airline from where it was from to what it is today.

As we know it now, it's no failure, it's smart and more disciplined growth in an uncertain future which could be good or bad.

But..

Also keep in mind that there could be other unknown factors(yes, to the rest of us) that they considered in their decision....new a/c types, mergers, marketing agreements, anything else, etc...You can use your imagination!
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
stlgph
Posts: 9053
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:37 am

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 28):

Northwest adds flights from Indianapolis

As I pointed out in another thread, it's not necessarily expansion.

NWA -used- to do 3x daily DC9s from IND to LGA. Now it's 4 flights a day with one DC9 and 3 CRJ. While it's an expansion of a "flight," the capacity is not the same as it was before.

NWA's addition of flights to Florida is not really an addition...as the flights were there before, scaled back for the season, and now they're back. Of course, following AirTran's announcements over the summer of increased service to Florida destinations and an additional flight to Atlanta beginning this fall, which actually *IS* an expansion.





Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 21):
So well said it needs repeating!

I'm in complete agreement! AirTran management seems to be doing a stellar job thus far and they know their established system best. Seems like they took an important lesson from airlines that expanded too quickly with fleet numbers and capacity....ATA, for example.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
xlpants
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:36 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting Clipper002 (Reply 30):
No thanks, I'll stick with Joe Leonard and his philosophies until they're proven wrong

What Joe Leonard didn't count on is Delta "sticking" it to him! Just look at the the DL release on MLI with 170's, the addition of BOS-PHF, etc. FL is getting slammed by DL everywhere and everytime FL annouces something new in a DL market. Funny how Joe blamed everything for all of his problems and forgot to mention a revitalized DL! Even more funny is how nobody on this thread gives Delta credit for FL's hardships!
FL has no place to go. They have no choice but to cut capacity.
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:51 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 21):
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 20):
The real question that most of you are missing is...Where in the world as AirTran going to put all that growth?

The network carriers are getting their legs back. ATL is full, AirTran doesn't really have an obvious #2 growth market. They obviously feel that success at their current rate of growth is going to diminish, so they have elected to do the prudent thing and scale back that growth.

Airtran is a very well-managed airline. Most of their management has experience at failed airlines that grew too fast. They don't make these decisions lightly. They certainly understand the issues involved much better than anyone on this message board.

So well said it needs repeating!

Ditto

[Edited 2006-09-09 00:53:25]
 
stlgph
Posts: 9053
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Xlpants (Reply 38):
FL has no place to go. They have no choice but to cut capacity

AirTran has plenty of places to go. I'm sure they just choose to operate and manage their company wisely for the sake of treating of ultimately being able to treat their employees to a much better deal than the "revitalized. bigger. better. more fantastic." Delta has.

I know I'd personally rather work for a more responsibly financed and managed company that treats me/and provides me with certainty of the future no matter how much "bigger" the unstable competition is.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Xlpants (Reply 38):
FL is getting slammed by DL everywhere and everytime FL annouces something new in a DL market.

Really? Have any proof to back that up?

Oh no, watch out FL, big old DL is putting E70's on MLI-ATL! Oh no! Goodbye market share!
 
king
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:58 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting Xlpants (Reply 38):
FL is getting slammed by DL everywhere and everytime FL annouces something new in a DL market. Funny how Joe blamed everything for all of his problems and forgot to mention a revitalized DL!

I don't think you can call Delta revitalized until they are out of bankruptcy.
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:35 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 43):
Since 2 paycuts from 2002, I STILL make MORE than my counterparts at FL.

Difference being that probably only a small percentage of AirTran's ramp and gate agents have been there long enough to make an equivalent pay rate since they have such a high turnover rate @ ATL. Same can be said to an extent @ EV as well.
 
stlgph
Posts: 9053
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:19 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 43):
How do you come to that conclusion? So Delta has filed for BK, which almost every other legacy also has, but has turned that around is now making double digit profits.

yes, double digit profits...at the expense of their employees.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 43):
I know I'd personally rather work for a more responsibly financed and managed company that treats me/and provides me with certainty of the future no matter how much "bigger" the unstable competition is.



Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 43):
So what is this "better deal" that you speak of that FL employees are recieving?

like, duh. the company management thus far is not screwing them over making them pay for mistakes they've made along the way.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 43):
By the way, the first sentence of that post makes absolutely no sense, but I got the gist of what you were saying. As far as the second paragraph, anyone in this industry knows not to think like that. It can all change overnight and you should not expect too much or too little, as TravATL stated:

it makes plenty of sense. you're just in denial again towards anything negative ever being said about Delta.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting King (Reply 42):
Quoting Xlpants (Reply 38):
FL is getting slammed by DL everywhere and everytime FL annouces something new in a DL market. Funny how Joe blamed everything for all of his problems and forgot to mention a revitalized DL!

I don't think you can call Delta revitalized until they are out of bankruptcy.

Funny how FL is blaming a storm that never even became a hurricane.

Further, DL pulled about 15% of capacity out of its domestic system and redeployed it overseas where FL doesn't fly. How can FL say DL has increased capacity when just about every FL competitive market has less capacity?

FL can grow ATL but those new gates are going to be very expensive compared to the existing ones. It is highly doubtful that any airline will volunteer to go to the new terminal, if it is ever built.

DL employees still make more than most network carrier employees and all ground employees still have a pension so I would hardly say DL employees are undercompensated.

DL has obtained less than a third of the savings for its revenue plan from its employees - that is the lowest percentage of any airline that went thorugh restructuring.

It is precisely because DL didn't rely on its employees to save them that DL is reporting profit margins as good as FL. Whether you want to admit that as revitalized or not is immaterial - DL is generating revenues as good as what FL can generate.

Yes, FL is pulling back because of DL whether Leonard wants to admit it or not. Is it any surprise that CO and B6 are also suffering because of DL's growth in NYC? They too are advising of weak revenues yet DL is not.

[Edited 2006-09-09 03:42:01]

[Edited 2006-09-09 03:42:41]
 
ksupilot
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:27 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:56 am

Quoting Dbba (Reply 14):
Me thinks you are all missing the real reason for this---they will be able to pick up used 717's cheap in the next few years....no doubt about it

This may be a better option than brand new aircraft. AirTran should pick up a few used 717s and just wait for Y1. Then they can begin replacing a good portion of their fleet and slowly become a one-plane carrier.
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7071
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:57 am

I think FL will pick up those 717's. I believe Leonard and his strategies for success.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
ksupilot
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:27 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 48):
I think FL will pick up those 717's. I believe Leonard and his strategies for success.

I agree. Boeing killed the program but there are other ways to succeed. Look at CO with the 757. Boeing kills the program but CO has recieved many used and they are doing well.

I think someday down the road we will see AirTran convert over to one aircraft type (Y1) but for now, second-hand 717s will work fine.
 
User avatar
TVNWZ
Posts: 1672
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

RE: Airtran To Cut Aircraft Order

Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:07 am

Quoting D950 (Reply 16):
Quoting Dbba (Reply 14):
they will be able to pick up used 717's cheap in the next few years....no doubt about it

From whom??

Okay, I'll stir the pot and think outside the box: revive the aquire Midwest talks. 25 717s there and a ready made hub.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 43):
Effective October 8, Delta is cancelling its interline ticketing and baggage agreement with Airtran, due to Airtran's unwillingness to support complete electronic ticketing with Delta. Another sign of Airtran "missing the beat" to an additional and effective means of revenue. New aircraft types? I guess the rest of the industry is overlooking something when the overrall trend is to minimize aircraft types?

I thought their new Res system could support electronic Interline ticketing? No? Or they just don't want to do it?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 817Dreamliiner, Anansaudiajet, ap305, Boeingphan, eadc8, FAST Enterprise [Crawler], nz2, Planesmart, Rufusisgod, rutankrd, SelandiaBaru, shamrock350, shankly, tbboko802, Yahoo [Bot], Yakamoz and 195 guests