Boeing7E7
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Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:20 am

Politicians don't get what they want, so they effectively pulled the plug on a new airport in San Diego today.

State Sen. Christine Kehoe says the Legislature needs to consider restructuring the San Diego County Regional Airport Authority, the agency that runs Lindbergh Field and that identified Miramar as the best potential new airport.

Christine Kehoe, D-San Diego, said yesterday the authority's divisive decision to recommend Miramar Air Station and its other work on land-use issues suggested it was too far removed from the public it was created to serve.


Has there been a vote yet? Perhaps thats a better measure than her opinion and the opinion of spineless politicians who have undermined the process at every turn.

Reasons:

She plans to call for hearings beginning next month to discuss legislation aimed at a more “efficient and effective” structure for the 4-year-old agency, possibly dismantling its policy-setting board.

I think she means, she wants political types in there that will cave to every whim.

“Some other governance structure might be more directly accessible to the people and be more representative of the region as a whole, and just do . . . a more effective job of planning for a new airport,”

Accessible, as in corruptible and do everything politicians ask them to do at any price rather than be objective.

On the ballot issue:

“If the voters accept it,” she said, “I'm not sure we know exactly what they've accepted.”

It means you have to get off your fat ass and make it happen.

Kehoe said the authority also mishandled its effort to update land-use documents to ensure that development around airports was compatible with the operations there. Its initial proposals, which use noise and safety criteria to guide jurisdictions in development plans, were attacked by “almost every city in the region and many private companies.”

Imagine that, politicians and developers upset about an airport agency that said stop building crap around airports! Like parking structures! And people claimed the airport was in bed with developers. Laughable.

What an incredible abuse of power.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060908/news_7m8kehoe.html

[Edited 2006-09-08 21:22:22]
 
redflyer
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:29 am

More stall-and-delay. Like I said in that long-winded thread last year wherein you and I had that intense "discussion", I don't think this much needed airport will see the light of day and, if it ever does, it will be so far into the future it will not serve the needs of San Diego residents now and in the near future. There's too many power-trippers living down there.

Unfortunately, the politics in San Diego tend to have a more pungent odor than other places.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
travelin man
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:45 am

"Her main partner on the issue is George Plescia, the Assembly GOP leader whose district includes Miramar."

How nice. Democrats and Republicans finally working together in California. Too bad they are doing so on an issue like this, which looks to be little more than "They didn't come up with a recommendation I like, so I'm going to try to take away their power."

Quote:
Those references in particular prompted some at the authority to speculate that Kehoe might be considering transferring some of functions to SANDAG, the regional planning and transportation agency. SANDAG already has taken over planning duties of the county's two public transit operations.

Wouldn't this be like Los Angeles taking LAWA's power and giving it over to the MTA? So the agency that schedules busses and builds freeways should take over airport planning? What????
 
PanAm747
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:49 am

Quote:
Unfortunately, the politics in San Diego tend to have a more pungent odor than other places.

True, however, all of Southern California is burying its head in the sand and ignoring the problem.

The tragic Greek chorus composed of SAN, SNA, LGB, and BUR, all repeat the same chorus over and over and over..."Let them go to LAX!!"

The great beast that is LAX cries "I cannot and will not handle your excess anymore"

The chorus replies, "But dealing with this problem would require us to think long-term, and as politicians, we are allergic to ANYTHING long-term...what shall we do? Ahh yes...do nothing!! That will make everyone happy now!! And really, who cares about the future?

And our future generations end up much like Medea's children - screwed over by our spineless and myopic forefathers.

If it wasn't true, it would be funny enough for the movie "Airplane!".
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
travelin man
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:07 am

PanAm --
True enough. I have to say, however, that for future growth at least the LA area has places like ONT and PMD. I really don't know what SAN's "safety valve" is (except for LAX, as you mentioned).
 
galapagapop
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:21 am

If the people there are so unwilling to accept the blatent advantages to the expansion of SAN, I say they just gave up their right to use the current SAN, why don't they themselves make the hike up to LAX to catch a 9AM flight?
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 5):
blatent advantages to the expansion of SAN

What advantage would that be? Wiping out 18,000 homes?
 
san747
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:42 am

Amazing... I'm actually afraid of what is going to happen this November... This whole new airport thing is becoming a debacle because of bullshit politics.

I'll be happy when groundbreaking happens for the new passenger terminal(s) at Miramar... Which may never happen given this new development.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
galapagapop
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 6):
What advantage would that be? Wiping out 18,000 homes?

Whoops poor frasing on my end. I meant as in moving to Miramar. Expanding SAN the current SAN can and will never work, I just consider it such a non-option anyway. My bad

Cheers!
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:54 am

I'm very, very far to the right of Ms. Kehoe on most issues, but on this one I'm almost motivated to send her a campaign contribution. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

The proposed Miramar site is a boondoggle and I'll be voting NO.
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Aloha717200
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:59 am

You know what they should do?

Shut down SAN, let the developers have it, and let the city go without an airport.

They can all use LAX, for all the bullshit they keep putting this issue through.

And yes, yes, I'll get called alot of names for this comment but frankly I'm sick of it. build it or don't, san diego. shit or get off the damn pot.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:14 am

Quote:
Shut down SAN, let the developers have it, and let the city go without an airport.

Heck, you do that and Carlsbad, Long Beach, Orange County, and Burbank will do the same thing!! And any politician seen driving the first bulldozer will be re-elected no matter how incompetent.

Pretty sad, huh?
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:18 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
Pretty sad, huh?

Yeah, and then let the reality sink in afterwards as to how much they needed the airports when the economy of the entire los angeles basin tanks.
 
Coronado990
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:59 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 10):
Shut down SAN, let the developers have it, and let the city go without an airport.

They can all use LAX, for all the bullshit they keep putting this issue through.

Geez. All this vote is about to me is if Miramar should open up, should we protect it and use it as an airport or just build more of the same...track housing and strip malls?

If it is not protected, then trust me, we will have the latter quicker then a bum on a ham sandwich.

It may take 5 years, 10 years or the next generation. Meanwhile, put that aside once protected and then play with what we got.

In the meantime, get something in the North County going and once you get that end of the county shored up, work on the South County.

One way is that San Diego should at least get it's foot in the door with Miramar much like Orlando did with McCoy in the early sixties when the first generation jets came out. A few international airlines such as PR and getting BA back would be a good way to start. Also cargo needs can be meet at Miramar as it is a 24/7 airport. I see jumbo's landing at Miramar almost every day now such as UA 744's, ATA
L-1011's, OIA DC-10s and World Airways MD-11s in a safe manner so a few flights a day should not pose a problem.
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
piercey
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:40 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 9):
I'm very, very far to the right of Ms. Kehoe on most issues, but on this one I'm almost motivated to send her a campaign contribution. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

The proposed Miramar site is a boondoggle and I'll be voting NO.

Care to elaborate why?

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 10):
Shut down SAN, let the developers have it, and let the city go without an airport.

They can all use LAX, for all the bullshit they keep putting this issue through.

Then let LAX have the Chargers while your at it  duck 

This whole thing is as bad as the convention center debacle in CLE (no new convention center = no tearing down IX Center = no airport expansion)

You know, I just wish CLE could do what ORD did, either get a bulldozer and DIY, or hire the mafia to do it *cough* McCormick Place *cough*

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 13):
UA 744's, ATA L-1011's, OIA DC-10s and World Airways MD-11s

aren't those all military charters  Wink
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:55 pm

Yeah,on top of of all the Kehoe mess,that Carson guy is at it again! A couple of days ago he wrote a huge editorial in the Union/Trib about how we should expand Carlsbad's Palomar airport into an international airport. I doubt he has ever seen the airport itself. He says simply expand the runway by 800 feet and then San Diego will have a long enough runway for fully loaded jumbo jets! What airport is he looking at? Palomar airport is just as landlocked as Lindbergh,and it still doesn't solve the problem of having dual runways to efficiently handle commercial air traffic.Isn't the biggest issue plaguing Lindbergh the single runway? This guy needs to quit while he's ahead!  banghead 
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Trvlr
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:22 pm

Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 15):
Yeah,on top of of all the Kehoe mess,that Carson guy is at it again! A couple of days ago he wrote a huge editorial in the Union/Trib about how we should expand Carlsbad's Palomar airport into an international airport. I doubt he has ever seen the airport itself. He says simply expand the runway by 800 feet and then San Diego will have a long enough runway for fully loaded jumbo jets! What airport is he looking at? Palomar airport is just as landlocked as Lindbergh,and it still doesn't solve the problem of having dual runways to efficiently handle commercial air traffic.Isn't the biggest issue plaguing Lindbergh the single runway? This guy needs to quit while he's ahead! banghead

That editorial was littered with false figures and other inaccuracies. If it was a scholarly work, he could have gotten in some trouble.

Aaron G.
 
Coronado990
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting Piercey (Reply 14):
aren't those all military charters

Yes indeed they are. Some just stop for fuel on their way to/from Hawaii. My point is not what is on them but that they are commercial jumbo jets making safe landings on a daily basis without jet fighters or helicopters running into them.
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Thread starter):
the authority's divisive decision to recommend Miramar Air Station and its other work on land-use issues suggested it was too far removed from the public it was created to serve.

Ms. Kehoe's comments have more to do with her trying to shore up an important base of political support rather than concern over a feasible airport alternative. Ms. Kehoe's facing term limits in her state senate seat and she is currying favor with those whose support (the military and their followers & the NIMBY crowd, along with their pocketbooks of course) will be critical to her next campaign for a seat in the US congress.

Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 15):
that Carson guy is at it again! A couple of days ago he wrote a huge editorial in the Union/Trib about how we should expand Carlsbad's Palomar airport into an international airport.

Now that idea is hilarious. How big is palomar? Maybe 50 acres? Rolling terrain all around? And the 100,000 houses within view of that airport? Even if we could buy up another 2000 acres (and the 1000s of houses on those acres) the cost to level all that land would be outrageous.

Imperial county? 120 miles away -- you'd have to take a plane just to get to the airport. Oh but we'd have an 8 billion dollar high speed rail link built over a mountain range. How convenient is that? Might as well continue the rail link to PHX and we'll all fly out of that city.

Miramar has thousands of flat acreage available, has a decent buffer from housing and is centrally located. The only problem unique to Miramar is that the Marines occupy it. And its the Marines Ms. Kehoe and company are addressing.

I know traffic around a miramar airport would be a bitch -- but auto traffic will be bad around any metropolitan airport built, and would be much worse if built at Palomar. Miramar is in the vicinity of the 5, 805, 163, 15 and 52 freeways. Palomar has just the 5. Imperial has the 8 (and an unbuilt rail link)
 
Coronado990
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 18):
Now that idea is hilarious. How big is palomar? Maybe 50 acres? Rolling terrain all around? And the 100,000 houses within view of that airport? Even if we could buy up another 2000 acres (and the 1000s of houses on those acres) the cost to level all that land would be outrageous

You could fill in the west end of the canyon beyond RWY 24 at Palomar and extend it to 7000 feet if you wanted. There is room just some fill work is necessary. A new terminal is in the works there as well and should be open in 3 years or so. I think Palomar Airport in this scenario is meant to be a reliever airport for our North County citizens serving the more popular destinations. This way, an Oceanside resident does not need to muck up the I-5 even further for their flight to SFO, LAS, PHX or wherever. There are about 1 million people in North County area scrambling to find an airport and Lindbergh and John Wayne just won't cut it any more.
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 19):
You could fill in the west end of the canyon beyond RWY 24 at Palomar and extend it to 7000 feet if you wanted

Do you mean the west end of the runway? Because I've noticed that there's a cliff at the west end and sitting at the bottom of the cliff are self storage buildings.There's maybe a remote possibilty of exending it to the east,but you would have to relocate El Camino Real,a very busy street.
you could maybe extend the runway right over it, (as other airports have done),but there still remains the problem of leveling some of the hillsides in that direction.Palomar's existing runway is not exactly flat,it already has a slight incline to the west.
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HPRamper
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:10 am

Oh, she has a great point. What could be more stupid than moving airport activities to an already-existing facility with a runway long enough for current needs and which could be easily expanded?  Yeah sure

She probably just lives in Imperial Beach and doesn't want the new airport to be such a long drive.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:17 am

In someways, I am sure the airlines watch the San Diego and greater Southern California debate with pleasure.

Eventually as capacity becomes more and more scarce in SoCal as compared to the rising demand, the air carriers will truly enjoy having pricing power and driving a premium price in a market that is artificially held back by airport capacity.

As is, we can see how an airport such as Orange County providing such premiums. It might not be long the entire region provides the same, as the capacity limits kick in at LAX and the remaining airports are stuck in zero growth mode themselves  banghead 
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 3):

Pretty much sums it all up. I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 13):
I see jumbo's landing at Miramar almost every day now such as UA 744's, ATA
L-1011's, OIA DC-10s and World Airways MD-11s in a safe manner so a few flights a day should not pose a problem.

I was gunna say. A nice glimpse of what the future could be. (well with different a/c). I saw a UA 744 taking off twice last week, that was a cool sight. And (shock  psst  ) it was a lot more quiet than a few F-18s buzzing around. Not that I mind them  bigthumbsup 

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Pol's Try To Pull The Plug On SAN New Airport

Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:36 pm

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 19):
You could fill in the west end of the canyon beyond RWY 24 at Palomar and extend it to 7000 feet if you wanted.

If you go east, you don't gain any landing distance only takeoff distance. Terrain already increases the glideslope and requires a displaced threshold (it's 34:1 to the displacement, vs runway end). Safety Areas are not up to snuff either. Here's the airport master record:


http://www.gcr1.com/5010web/REPORTS/AFD08032006CRQ.pdf