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RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:54 am

Apparently development for the replacement to the 737 is slowing down at Boeing because all available resources are working full tilt on getting the 787 out of the hanger on time. This is a rumor that one of my friends who works for a aerospace contractor told me. I personally don't think this is a bad idea for Boeing because neither the 737RS nor the A320NG specifications are public right now and they keep on booking 737 orders. It would be smart to wait for Airbus to make the first move in this space and then come out with better specs and spend the development money at that time rather than skim workers off of the 787 development. The 787 will have a greater profit margin for Boeing than the 737RS ever will.

[Edited 2006-09-08 23:57:31]
/// U N I T E D
 
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Stitch
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:03 am

Well the 737RS can wait, frankly, since the proper powerplant is not available. So better to dedicate the resources now to the 787 program to make the launch as timely and painless as possible and then once she's out the (factory) door, they can re-start work on the 737RS program.
 
zvezda
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:27 am

I doubt that either Airbus or Boeing are reducing the number of people working on the A320 or B737 replacements. It would be easier to believe that the numbers are not increasing as fast as earlier planned. If so, that probably has more to do with the availability estimates from the engine manufacturers than with the B787 project.
 
lehpron
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:59 am

Honeslty, will the 737 actually be replaced, per se, i.e. not entirely?

737RS is just a reaplacement study, not a launch or any type of major development, what if they determine it is just not feasible with current or developing technology?
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zvezda
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:36 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 3):
737RS is just a reaplacement study, not a launch or any type of major development, what if they determine it is just not feasible with current or developing technology?

The technology exists. It needs to be developed into an airliner. A lot of engineering work needs to be done, but no new technology needs to be invented (though some probably will be).
 
ksupilot
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 4):
The technology exists. It needs to be developed into an airliner. A lot of engineering work needs to be done, but no new technology needs to be invented (though some probably will be).

Everything is there, with the exception of engines. It could be done right now, but Boeing most likely wants to wait for better engines.

They also want to see how the 787 does once it is in service, as Y1 will use some of its technology. And if airlines like the 787, then they will like a Y1 based heavily upon it (think narrowbody 787-like family that covers everything from the 737-600 to the 757-300).
 
ikramerica
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:11 am

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 5):
Everything is there, with the exception of engines. It could be done right now, but Boeing most likely wants to wait for better engines.

And that's up to the engine manufacturers, who are now saddled with having to develop new engines for the 350X as well (should they choose to).
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1337Delta764
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:17 am

I think I have heard somewhere that CFM is working on a CFM56 successor, but I have also heard that Pratt & Whitney and Rolls-Royce are currently studying two separate designs. I heard that RR is studying a three-spool design for the 737RS/NSR engine. This could be a sign that the 737RS will be offered with three engine options: CFM, RR, and PW.
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dank
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:04 am

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 5):
Everything is there, with the exception of engines. It could be done right now, but Boeing most likely wants to wait for better engines.

I think the importance of this can't be overstated. Without new technology engines, a whole new replacement isn't going to happen. Airbus can probably buy a bit of time with the 320E. A similar modification for Boeing would probably not be worth it as they have less room to improve and should be ready to go with Y1 once engines are available.

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 5):
They also want to see how the 787 does once it is in service, as Y1 will use some of its technology. And if airlines like the 787, then they will like a Y1 based heavily upon it (think narrowbody 787-like family that covers everything from the 737-600 to the 757-300).

I don't think it as much as seeing how the 787 performs in service, but in how development and production proceeds. They need to know that they can implement the new process efficiently (both in terms of supply chain issues as well as composite fuselage porduction and assembly) before they go full speed with a second program. They need to try and eliminate the kinks that will invariably appear through production of the 787. To be sure, it will be useful to know what the teething problems are for the 787, but I think the production issues are more important.

As for the range in capacity for the 737RS. i just don't see any single fuselage (composite or not) meeting everything from 737-600 to 757-300 sizes. It would just have to carry too much structure (the -600 and a318 already do) for that size range. I'm not sure what the market will be for 757-300 size planes, so they might skip the high end. I'd say 150-250 seats should about do it.

cheers.
 
futurecaptain
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:53 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
This could be a sign that the 737RS will be offered with three engine options: CFM, RR, and PW.

I'd say that's a good bet. Even though it's against what Boeing has been doing lately I think this aircraft market is too important to not offer 3 engine choices.

Quoting Dank (Reply 8):
so they might skip the high end. I'd say 150-250 seats should about do it.

I'd bet my left arm there will be a model optimized for 149 seats, Southwest Airlines replacement aircraft. 3 FA's and 2 pilots forever.
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dank
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:54 pm

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 9):
I'd say that's a good bet. Even though it's against what Boeing has been doing lately I think this aircraft market is too important to not offer 3 engine choices.

Only if PW can get their act together. Sad to see them falling by the wayside.

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 9):
I'd bet my left arm there will be a model optimized for 149 seats, Southwest Airlines replacement aircraft. 3 FA's and 2 pilots forever.

I'd say that is 150 seats... I just don't see a 100 or 125 seater coming with Y1. not with the gap at the top end of the market and the competiveness of the ejets...

cheers.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:14 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Y1 is just in the concept phase so I doubt a lot of resources are being devoted to it anyway, as yet.
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Ken777
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:30 pm

I seem to remember reading that Boeing was using a "Joint 787/Y1 Development" approach in their R&D - not a 787 development program with usable bits thrown into the Y1 program. The current situation with emphasis on the 787 might mean that more engineers are focused on the 787 for the short term, but lessons learned will still be available for Y1.

While I understand the problems related to the engines for Y1 I have also been interested in reading the GE hasn't committed to delivering an engine for the largest of the new 350s. Is it possible that they have already assigned a significant amount of engineering resources to an engine for Y1. They can feel the pressure for Y1 deliveries from WN (and others) as clearly as Boeing and the first one out the gate is going to be in a pretty good position. GE might be wanting that position to the point that they are pushing ahead full speed.
 
roseflyer
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 9):
I'd bet my left arm there will be a model optimized for 149 seats, Southwest Airlines replacement aircraft. 3 FA's and 2 pilots forever.

I think Southwest is one of the few airlines with enough pull to get Boeing to design a plane to specifications that they want.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 11):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Y1 is just in the concept phase so I doubt a lot of resources are being devoted to it anyway, as yet.

While yes it is just in the concept phase, that is when much of the engineering work happens. Standard work is: design proposal, preliminary design, testing, refinement, and production ramp up. Different teams of engineers work on all different areas, but with the components for the 787 reaching the preliminary design and testing phase, engineering resources are being drawn from other programs to support Boeing's most critical commercial development now. But the 737 replacement is in the proposal phase.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
The current situation with emphasis on the 787 might mean that more engineers are focused on the 787 for the short term, but lessons learned will still be available for Y1.

I think that is crucial. Lessons need to be learned from all sources.
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boeingbus
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:41 pm

with current sales of the 737 as they are.... why should Boeing rush the replacement?

For every 737 sold, most of the profits go directly to R&D. So it doesn't surprise me that Boeing is rethinking its target date for the 737RS. One additional year of 737 production could equate to 1/10th of the 737RS program costs.

Engines is another reason??? IMO, I don't think so. The engine manufacters, specifically GE and RR, are finding tremendous sucess in the 787 engines. It is known via the recent media articles that they are ahead of schedule in testing those engines. Therefore, there is no indication that the engine manufacters would be the cause of the delay, if this rumor is true.

Again, anything that can contribute a delay in EIS of 737RS is everything to do with the sucesses of the current 737NG.

Also, we can't forget how soon we will see the 787 take shape and its first flight so additional resources are needed during this super busy period.

Time is really passing by us really very fast... just the other day it seemed Boeing was coming up with a sonic cruiser... lol... Interesting, what time and reality does to ideas/projects.

Cheers,

Ric
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ksupilot
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:46 am

I'm thinking something like this for the 737RS. I modified an image off of MAF (the original is the 797-100) The 797-100 is your Southwest 737-700 replacement. The 797-200 replaces the 737-800/900 and the 757-200. The 797-300 replaces the 757-300 and leaves a 25 seat gap between the 797-300 and the 787-3/8.

http://onfinite.com/libraries/991726/223.jpg
 
roseflyer
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 14):
with current sales of the 737 as they are.... why should Boeing rush the replacement?

That type of attitude is part of the reason why a few years ago Airbus was able to surpass Boeing in sales. Continued development is necessary to remain competitive. The 737NG is a great plane and is still selling well, but the replacement plane is still more than five years away. That's a long time. The 737-300 took was replaced 13 years after it first flew. If the 737NG was to replaced this quickly, then the replacement would already be in development and would fly in 2010. While there isn't as much pushing Boeing to replace the 737NG since its competitor is an older design and Airbus has not launched a replacement either.

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 14):
Also, we can't forget how soon we will see the 787 take shape and its first flight so additional resources are needed during this super busy period.

Yes I believe that would be a reason to slow 737 replacement development. The 787 is requiring resources from all over Boeing and the suppliers for the plane.
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ksupilot
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:30 am

I still think this "slowing" was already in the plans, as they knew they were going to be focusing on the 787 and the 747-8. I mean the earliest date we have heard for a possible launch of the official program is after the 787 first flight.

I wouldn't expect the 737-RS to actually fly until 2012 (at the earliest) That is 6 years from now, and there can be a lot of 737 sales in that time.

I think the the smaller 797-100 is going to be one of the key battles, as that will be of interest to basically any airline flying 737-300s, 500s, 600s, 700s. And the 797-200 will be the second key battle as it will replace the -800, -900, and 757-200. It still remains to be seem whether there is a need for a 757-300 replacement, but it would be nice for Boeing to come close to the 797-787 gap.
 
lredlefsen
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:44 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
And that's up to the engine manufacturers, who are now saddled with having to develop new engines for the 350X as well (should they choose to).

Please pardon the stupid question (and also excuse the fact that this might be in the wrong forum -- maybe this belongs in Tech/Ops?), but what are the tradeoffs involved in engine design for commercial airliners? Is there a good place to read up on the basics?

From my very limited knowledge, I gather that in order to make an efficient engine, you want a high bypass ratio, which means you'll end up with an engine with a large diameter.

If the engine is to be mounted under the wings, the landing gear has to be high enough so that the engines don't drag on the ground (viz the 757, which looks like a model with really looong legs).

A high/tall landing gear gives the forces on the wheels a longer lever, which means more strength is needed at the base of the gear (i.e., the place where it is mounted to the wing/fuselage). More strength often means more weight.

Is that pretty much what's involved?

How about a design similar to the C-17, where the wings are mounted on top of the fuselage, rather than below it?
 
ksupilot
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:44 am

Quoting Lredlefsen (Reply 18):
How about a design similar to the C-17, where the wings are mounted on top of the fuselage, rather than below it?

Boeing did take out a patent on something similar to this. But it could just be a study, as when all aircraft manufacturers come up with something, they always patent it before the other guy does.

This could be a 737-RS design, however exits do become an issue...no over wing exits. And not to mention you have engines right next to some windows which could mean more noise.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:40 am

I think that the 737RS will feature a standard wing-mounted engine/conventional tail design, with a height similar to the 757. Exits are an issue with a high-wing design. With a T-tail/rear engine design, consider that T-tails are more complex and require more maintenence than conventinal tails, and that T-tails weigh more.
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boeingbus
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:47 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 16):

That type of attitude is part of the reason why a few years ago Airbus was able to surpass Boeing in sales.

No it wasnt. The reason for Boeings failures was perdominantly Boeing never priced the 737 to properly compete with the A320 when it comes to LCC sales. 737 was and continues to be on par when it comes to performance and efficiency. In 2006, the 737 continues to sell extremely well and with Airbus having bigger fish to fry... they can delay the EIS.

There is only one segment that Boeing lacked a competitive product and that was the A332. Even in this segment Boeing came out with the 764 and prevented some customers to switch to Airbus.

IMO, Boeing timed a midsize long haul replacement correctly. By delaying the 767 replacement launch by several more years Boeing was able to modernize its manufactering process, new cutting edge technologies were developed, and new engines were born. This is called the 787 project a perfect 767/A300/A310/A332 replacement in perfect timing, if you ask me...

Boeing has always had a adequate products.. the failures were perdominately due to an inadequate sales team and the overall management. oh, the arrogance too.
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roseflyer
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:20 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 20):
With a T-tail/rear engine design, consider that T-tails are more complex and require more maintenence than conventinal tails, and that T-tails weigh more.

From what I know, T-tails are more efficient. I'm have very limited aero experience, but I believe that they are less expensive in the long run. The biggest problem from seeing more of them is that they can have poor stall recovery capabilities. If the plane is at a certain angle of attack, the horizontal stabilizor will be in the wash of the wing, which causes the elevators to lose effectiveness and limit stall recovery capability. The 757 was originally designed with a T-tail. It was a late modification to switch to a conventional tail that happened after launch.
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eisman
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:42 pm

As they say in soccer, "first to the ball!". Boeing will be in a monopolist position for up to 4 years when it introduces the 787, potentially recapturing it's industry leadership. The possibility that Boeing will not press its current advantage in the product development cycle by delaying it's 737RS program is zero.
 
lehpron
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 4):
The technology exists. It needs to be developed into an airliner. A lot of engineering work needs to be done, but no new technology needs to be invented (though some probably will be).

You know I can say the same thing for an SST but no one wants to believe that...  Confused

This is what happens when we kill imagination as we expect things to work right off the bat.
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Stitch
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 24):
You know I can say the same thing for an SST but no one wants to believe that...

Because the economics of an SST don't make sense right now because of both high fuel burn and the public's refusal for overland flights which restrict the routings they can take.

Even at Mach 3, you don't save any time flying LHR to SYD when your routing is over the ocean down the west coasts of France, Portugal, and Africa to round Cape Horn and then out to SYD, with multiple fuel stops along the way.  Silly
 
lehpron
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):
Because the economics of an SST don't make sense right now because of both high fuel burn and the public's refusal for overland flights which restrict the routings they can take.

If what became of 737RS used modern engines, it would be no different than any other plane of similar class -- makes no sense to build it. We might as well make another derivative because it is cheaper to develop. Rather, engine companies are going to build a new and better engine betting (pretty much, an engineering proposal is hardly a bluff) it will make the next airplane extremely successful.

To gripe about the economics of an SST assumes you don't do anything new, that we instead pull designs from as recent as the 1990's that were negligibly better than Concorde, because like airframe derivatives, they are cheaper to develop. Such a machine would be in the same place whatever becomes of the 737RS is now without a better engine. As long as we don't do anything new, then yes, "the economics of an SST" won't "make sense".

So what can we do? General concensus here is that the next 737 will get a new and better engine than any other vehicle of similar class (until the next one), yet somehow applying the same logic to an SST is wrong? Wouldn't you like to go faster and not pay extra?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
jdevora
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:09 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 21):
No it wasnt. The reason for Boeings failures was perdominantly Boeing never priced the 737 to properly compete with the A320 when it comes to LCC sales.

My understanding was that the B737 is cheaper than the A320...

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 21):
737 was and continues to be on par when it comes to performance and efficiency. In 2006, the 737 continues to sell extremely well and with Airbus having bigger fish to fry... they can delay the EIS.

I'm still wondering if it is efficiency or is it that there are a lot of airlines with a fleet of "old 737" to replace.

http://www.leeham.net/filelib/ScottsColumn071806.pdf#search=%22XWB%22 on Page 4, I read that: 34 Airlines switched from B737 to A320, 2 airlines went from the A320 to the B737 and 2 airlines went from the A320 to the B737 and came back to the A320...
 
boeingbus
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:35 am

Quoting Jdevora (Reply 27):

My understanding was that the B737 is cheaper than the A320...

If so, why would airlines switch as the 737 and A320 are pretty much equals in terms of efficiency? If so, why would airlines go through the hassle of training pilots, mechanics and attendents?

I think its all about price as A320 was priced to the point is made sense for Airlines. Boeing was caught off guard here and had to drop its prices to compete.

There is a lot that can be said about how Airbus builds planes and how efficient they are in doing so. Boeing had to introduce a moving assembly line to offer the same economics.
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dank
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:32 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 28):
I think its all about price as A320 was priced to the point is made sense for Airlines. Boeing was caught off guard here and had to drop its prices to compete.

There is a lot that can be said about how Airbus builds planes and how efficient they are in doing so. Boeing had to introduce a moving assembly line to offer the same economics.

I believe that there were two things that hurt Boeing with regards to the 737 vs. the a320. They were slow to realize that the improved efficiency of the a320 vs. the 737 classics would sway long term Boeing clients to buy Airbus (see United). Much as the NW and QF 787 sales made Airbus realize that they had to come up with an improved 350, the UA sale put pressure on Boeing to develop the 737NG. The second was the classic problem of not feeling like you have to spend effort courting the customers that you think your product is ideally suited for, either by attention or price. I don't think that it really had to do with list price as nobody really pays it. From what I gather, Boeing just assumed that Frontier would go with them and didn't make them a decent offer. I doubt that they couldn't have given them a good deal and still made a decent profit, but they didn't think they needed to. And it was their loss.

In terms of the a320NG vs. 737RS, I think that by improving the 320 incrementally (the 320E), Airbus can bide a bit more time before EIS of their new narrowbody. Remember that this would not be a repeat of the earlier 350 offerings because the 320E will have EIS well before EIS of the 737RS. If what both the engine manufacturers and Boeing seem to have stated is true, that powerplants will not be available for another 6+ years, there is a lot of time left.

cheers.
 
jdevora
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:07 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 28):
If so, why would airlines switch as the 737 and A320 are pretty much equals in terms of efficiency? If so, why would airlines go through the hassle of training pilots, mechanics and attendents?

That could be true NOW (A320 vs 737NG) but back when the A320 came out, the efficiency difference with the 737Clasic was big.
 
deltadc9
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Dank (Reply 10):
Only if PW can get their act together. Sad to see them falling by the wayside.

They have done no such thing, PW has seen its commercial sales drop, but that is not relevant to their current status as one of the big three engine manufacturers.

The GP7200 is one hell of an engine and still nearly half of all commercial planes are PW powered. They are part of the Engine Alliance, and they can easily recover in the commercial sector with a successful 737/320 next gen solution.

The F-15, F-16, F-22, and F-35 are are PW powered, and they are a major rocket engine manufacturer.

Dont let a few commercial failures make you think PW is dead.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 16):
That type of attitude is part of the reason why a few years ago Airbus was able to surpass Boeing in sales.

Not really.

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 21):
Boeing has always had a adequate products.. the failures were perdominately due to an inadequate sales team and the overall management. oh, the arrogance too.

Add to that the fact that thier core base of customers stopped buying from anyone for about 5 years.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
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Stitch
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 26):
So what can we do? General concensus here is that the next 737 will get a new and better engine than any other vehicle of similar class (until the next one), yet somehow applying the same logic to an SST is wrong? Wouldn't you like to go faster and not pay extra?

Ok, I will certainly agree that a new generation of high-Mach supercruise engines would address the fuel burn and "usable payload" issues, but there are still emissions issues (especially in the upper atmosphere such a plane would normally cruise at) as well as the sonic-boom issues which will probably require a new airframe and wing design.

Supposedly the Japanese have solved the airframe and wing issue and perhaps P&W can leverage the F119-PW-100 to generate an emissions-friendly supercruise commercial engine to power her.    

[Edited 2006-09-11 18:02:13]
 
dank
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 31):
They have done no such thing, PW has seen its commercial sales drop, but that is not relevant to their current status as one of the big three engine manufacturers.

Sorry, I should have clarified and stated in the commercial aircraft engine market. It is still hard for me to see them recover and sell their own (not part of EA) powerplants in the commercial sector.

cheers.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 32):
So what can we do? General concensus here is that the next 737 will get a new and better engine than any other vehicle of similar class (until the next one), yet somehow applying the same logic to an SST is wrong? Wouldn't you like to go faster and not pay extra?

I am pretty sure the 737RS will have a higher cruise speed than the 737NG, but not super-fast. Most likely, the speed will probably be comparable to that of the 787.
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zvezda
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 34):

I am pretty sure the 737RS will have a higher cruise speed than the 737NG, but not super-fast. Most likely, the speed will probably be comparable to that of the 787.

Given current fuel prices and the lesser range, I doubt that. Perhaps 0.82M, but anything faster than that would surprise me.
 
boeingbus
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:20 am

Whatever the date Boeing has in mind... the ball has started to roll...

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/afx/2006/09/11/afx3006032.html

Article mentiones 2014...
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
dank
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 36):
Whatever the date Boeing has in mind... the ball has started to roll...

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/afx/2006/09/11/afx3006032.html

Article mentiones 2014...

This is pretty much what has been known.

cheers.
 
ksupilot
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:37 am

Well if Boeing is going to give customers what they want, which is a more efficient, similar sized, 737-RS, then I ma pretty sure we are going to see something similar to the image I posted above in reply 15.
 
lehpron
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:03 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 34):
I am pretty sure the 737RS will have a higher cruise speed than the 737NG, but not super-fast. Most likely, the speed will probably be comparable to that of the 787.

With the idea of associating the two, not about cruise speed, I meant people have enough faith in one and will prove it workable but not the other, as they will not have faith. Remember Boeing's Sonic Cruiser was supposed to fly 15% faster with the same economics as a 767 and dropping the speed of that engine resulted in dramatic fuel efficiency for 787 - which is now the datum for every new airplane until the next.

I'm not stating that the next 737RS/Y1 be faster, essentially slower would make a bit more sense, to cheat fuel efficiency.  Wink Though the limits would approach turboprops efficency and speeds; I do not know the industry's thoughts on large turboprop transports.

At the very least, in my mind, increasing the chord length of fan blades decreases noise and increases thrust (via increase in pressure behind the fan across its area) without doing anything to the engine overall.

Then there was my proposal of exchanging the typical steady burner in the combustion chamber with one that pulses, cutting the fuel usage (and emissions) in half**, as it is only burning half the time and the rest of the thrust is just momentum from the fans (which acts as a cooler for the chamber enabling a higher burn temp and higher TSFC). It will look like a jet on the outside just sound like a jackhammer with the whistle of a turbine in the background.  Wink

(**this engine would make a lot more sense on a future SST than what we have available, think about it. Similar economics to 767 and go up to potentially twice as fast...hint hint people! Big grin But for the purposes of a 737 replacement, an increase in payload or range, your choice while maintaining M0.8x.)

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 35):
Given current fuel prices and the lesser range, I doubt that. Perhaps 0.82M, but anything faster than that would surprise me.

Hmm, here's a hypothetical for you:

If range was small enough, then can speed reduction actually result in more planes in the sky than crowding at an airport, enabling a larger and useful aircraft order?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
zvezda
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:51 pm

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 39):
Then there was my proposal of exchanging the typical steady burner in the combustion chamber with one that pulses, cutting the fuel usage (and emissions) in half**, as it is only burning half the time and the rest of the thrust is just momentum from the fans (which acts as a cooler for the chamber enabling a higher burn temp and higher TSFC). It will look like a jet on the outside just sound like a jackhammer with the whistle of a turbine in the background.

You're effectively just proposing to double the bypass ratio, but with the twist of pulsing thrust. The pulsing thrust per se doesn't have any advantages, but puts a lot of extra stress on everything.
 
phollingsworth
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:17 pm

A couple of notes here.

1. On cruise speed, the shorter the range of the flight and the more congested the airspace the less benefit you get from increasing the design cruise Mach number. In the Eastern US most airplanes cruise at speeds dictated by ATC and not by the design of the aircraft. This is most likely true in much of Europe also. Obviously you want to design for a range of efficient cruise Mach numbers. Also as fuel prices go up you will see a decrease in design cruise Mach numbers, all else being equal.

2. The problem with engines for the 737RS, 320NG is not that the technology isn't there, it is that currently the design uncertainty is quite high with the technology availible. On short range missions the weight/SFC trade-off still falls in favour of weight. In longer range missions you start looking at SFC. This is why GE/CFM is probably looking at 1 vs 2 HPC stage designs and RR is looking at 2 vs 3 spools. The killer is the trade in mtc costs that the extra complexity brings. MTC cost improvements are of significant operational advantage over SFC improvements on short missions (this is even with oil at over $100/barrel).

3. The success of the A320, at least through the early to mid 90s, can be directly attributed to the failings of Boeing's 737 and 757 designs. While they were quite compentent designs in and of themselves; they could not satisfactorally fill (especially once the A320 became proven) a very important market segment, that of the 727-200. Boeing design the 757 to be a 727 replacement with good economics, but the aircraft is too large. Therefore, when a direct 727-200 aircraft appeared in the guise of the A320 with similar per seat economics to the 757 it found a natural monopoly niche. Since the 737NG arrived there has been a much more direct competition. In this environment the A320 has often had a capital cost advantage over the 737, especially when Boeing made the concious and dumb decision not to chase order numbers.

A last aside on the A332/B764 debate. There was not all that significant risk of DL ordering the 332 at the time. It could not fit into the planned usage structure that DL envisioned at the time (this is different from DL's current plans). There was no aircraft that could and DL helped convince Boeing to create such an airplane, while leveraging a design that DL operated large numbers of. My understanding is that CO's requirements were quite similar.
 
lehpron
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:37 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 40):
You're effectively just proposing to double the bypass ratio, but with the twist of pulsing thrust. The pulsing thrust per se doesn't have any advantages, but puts a lot of extra stress on everything.

How did you figure the bypass would double? Unless air that goes though core and doesn't burn would be the extra bypass?  no  I proposed keeping the overall engine exactly the same as a steady-state burning counterpart. Theoretical operation would have the pulse itself be variable with normal jet operation at takeoff/landing and with reduced burned at cruise, as that is where it matters. Pulsed thrust seems misleading to me; thrust shouldn't go from zero to full sinusodally (that is a heavy stress load), rather it should 'highspeed windmill' then full sinusodially, etc.

I say 'should' as math is ideal, I haven't built one and what I am describing doesn't yet exist. But I think it is worth investing in, with oil prices so high.

The only major disadvantage to the design is excessive vibration. If however the pulse rate were made to follow the expected (calculatable and predictable) vibrations that would occur normally in the enigne, then the life expectancy wouldn't be detremental to the engine.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
zvezda
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 42):
How did you figure the bypass would double? Unless air that goes though core and doesn't burn would be the extra bypass?

Then you're proposing to halve the fuel/air ratio??? Or you want to inject twice as much fuel during each pulse???
 
gigneil
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:15 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 14):
Engines is another reason??? IMO, I don't think so.

Engines are the MAJOR holdup in any 737RS or NSR plans.

End of story.

NS
 
lehpron
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:44 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 43):
Then you're proposing to halve the fuel/air ratio??? Or you want to inject twice as much fuel during each pulse???

lol, how are you coming to these conclusions? This might confuse, but the fuel-to-air ratio doesn't change, with a pulsed turbofan, there is overall less fuel burned due to pulse, there is no need to increase the fuel rate - that would defeat the purpose.

Just imagine that the burner injector, rather than a constant stream, acts like those lawn sprinklers that have intermittent sprays, they pulse as they go across the lawn and back.

If I have an engine running and sudden cut the fuel, it will shut off but the inertia of high spinning parts doesn't lock to a stop, they spin and still draw air in and create a thrust per se that drops towards zero.

I don't want to break out the pictures/formulas until this weekend only if someone didn't get it.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
zvezda
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:12 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 45):

If I have an engine running and sudden cut the fuel, it will shut off but the inertia of high spinning parts doesn't lock to a stop, they spin and still draw air in and create a thrust per se that drops towards zero.

I understand what interia is. I studied physics at university. If you take a standard jet engine and the only change you make is to pulse the fuel, the core will not produce enough power to keep the fan turning at speed. It takes power to keep the fan turning. Whether that power is applied steadily or in pulses doesn't change how much power is required to keep the fan turning.
 
lehpron
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 46):
If you take a standard jet engine and the only change you make is to pulse the fuel, the core will not produce enough power to keep the fan turning at speed.

What kind of time split were you thinking of? Maybe I failed to mention the pulse rate would have to be high to be effective/competitve, on the order of 60-200Hz. The effect would be like a rock skipping on a pond as opposed to maintaining contact with the water and being pushed along.

Send me an email if you'd like more info. If I go into more detail I cannot patent it.  Wink
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 45):
If I have an engine running and sudden cut the fuel, it will shut off but the inertia of high spinning parts doesn't lock to a stop, they spin and still draw air in and create a thrust per se that drops towards zero.

I don't want to break out the pictures/formulas until this weekend only if someone didn't get it.

I think you greatly overestimate the inertia, as engine makers have been striving for decades to decrease the rotating mass. Even if you want to think of the fan as a flywheel, it will take more fuel to spin that flywheel back up to speed on the next pulse. You assume thrust derived from the inertial energy while disregarding where that inertial energy comes from.

This sounds like a perpetual motion machine - count me amongst those who don't get it.  boggled 
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
zvezda
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RE: RUMOR: 737RS Development Slows Because Of 787

Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:04 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 47):
What kind of time split were you thinking of?

That is completely immaterial.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 48):
This sounds like a perpetual motion machine - count me amongst those who don't get it.

You get it perfectly.

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