MAH4546
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TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:47 am

Subject pretty much says it all. TAP is in negotiations with the Brazilian government to begin service to Manaus, an important business and tourist centre in the Brazilian Amazon. The article (Portuguese only) is mainly fluff and doesn't go into any details:

http://www.portugaldigital.com.br/si...icia.kmf?noticia=5173492&canal=157

Manaus currently has non-stop international flights daily to Caracas and Miami, and 5x weekly to Panama City.
a.
 
Brasuca
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:07 am

They're talking too much. Quite a lot of political good will and quite none available aircraft!
They don't have any spare aircraft for this flight and now there are rumours about BSB, SLZ and MAO! Two destinations that an A310 cannot reach.

Are they bringing more aircraft besides this extra A310 arriving this year?
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
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LTU932
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:41 pm

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 1):
Are they bringing more aircraft besides this extra A310 arriving this year?

If I'm not mistaken, TP has a few A332s on order, so this route could be opened up once those A332s are in service.

EDIT: According to the Great Circle Mapper, LIS-MAO is just 3765 nm still air distance, though part of the route would fly in a zone out of reach for both ETOPS 120 and ETOPS 138, however with proper routing, it should be well within reach for an A310, unless they decide to send an A343 down to MAO just to avoid ETOPS.

[Edited 2006-09-09 09:45:37]
 
Brasuca
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:59 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):

There is no ETOPS problem restriction in North Atlantic Ocean for A310. They are 180:

Quote:

Today, all wide-bodied Airbus twins (A300-600, A310 and A330) are typecertificated to 180 minutes and all A320 Family aircraft to 120 minutes.

http://events.airbus.com/pdf/media/l.../etops.pdf#search='ETOPS%20A310'

I'm going to search for their A310 replacement...
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
tiago701
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 1):
They're talking too much. Quite a lot of political good will and quite none available aircraft!
They don't have any spare aircraft for this flight and now there are rumours about BSB, SLZ and MAO! Two destinations that an A310 cannot reach.

Are they bringing more aircraft besides this extra A310 arriving this year?

TP will receive another A310 in October and the flight LIS-EWR is going from 10 weekly (7 A330 and 3 A310) to 7 weekly (A310) freeing up one A330 and giving the A310 some more operational agility from 29th October (IATA winter).

This A330 can, if they decide so, to be used in the opening of the routes the A310 can't reach.

In relation to this particular subject TP always had interest in MAO and although i think they are sooner or later going to open it, BSB will be opened before or at the same time than MAO. TP doesn't seem to be particularly interested in opening BSB but this route was part of the agreement that granted TP with new rights to GRU and GIG (back in May 2006).

I wouldn't be surprised to see both routes opened soon. Maybe 4 weekly to MAO and 3 weekly to BSB to start up with.

The new A330s will start arriving in 2007, not sure when.

A bit off topic, NAT is going 6 weekly (from the current 5) this winter as well.
 
Neo
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:17 pm

Quoting Tiago701 (Reply 4):
In relation to this particular subject TP always had interest in MAO and although i think they are sooner or later going to open it, BSB will be opened before or at the same time than MAO. TP doesn't seem to be particularly interested in opening BSB but this route was part of the agreement that granted TP with new rights to GRU and GIG (back in May 2006).

I wouldn't be surprised to see both routes opened soon. Maybe 4 weekly to MAO and 3 weekly to BSB to start up with.

If TAP starts BSB this would be the first flight to Brazil focused on briging Brazilians to Europe and not the other way around. MAO in the other hand is typically a tourist low-yield destination, that would be marketed as an exotic destination intended to drive traffic from Europe..

Also I think BSB and MAO would be even more attractive if TP could channel in conecting pax.. but since RG is low on flights and they don't have codeshare agreements with anyonelse..I don't think it will make much of a difference.

Rgs,

Neo
 
gte439u
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:44 pm

Has TP ever looked at flying to POA or CWB (Porto Alegre and Curitiba, repectively)? Southern Brazil is very prosperous, so a non-stop flight to Europe seems like it could make a success. Or are most passengers well-served by connecting in GRU or GIG?
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:09 am

Quoting Gte439u (Reply 6):
Has TP ever looked at flying to POA or CWB (Porto Alegre and Curitiba, repectively)? Southern Brazil is very prosperous, so a non-stop flight to Europe seems like it could make a success. Or are most passengers well-served by connecting in GRU or GIG?

The problem for CWB and POA is it demands A332 or A343 and there are a lot of connecting options to both GIG and GRU.

Quoting Tiago701 (Reply 4):
I wouldn't be surprised to see both routes opened soon. Maybe 4 weekly to MAO and 3 weekly to BSB to start up with

They could use a flight 4x LIS-MAO-BSB-LIS , 3x LIS-BSB-MAO-LIS. With this flight they could get the business (government) traffic to BSB and to MAO (will be the only flight from Europe to a very dense industrial zone at MAO, the Tax Free Trade Zone where we can find Siemens, Philips among a few others from Europe and a lot from Japan/China/Taiwan/Korea)

Quoting Tiago701 (Reply 4):
TP will receive another A310 in October and the flight LIS-EWR is going from 10 weekly (7 A330 and 3 A310) to 7 weekly (A310) freeing up one A330 and giving the A310 some more operational agility from 29th October (IATA winter).

Tiago, there are some maintenance scheduled for the A343 fleet during the IATA winter (GIG and GRU during january IIRC will receive A332 on both services to LIS and OPO during some days of the week). It could explain the use for this new A310 to replace and freeing one A332.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
luisde8cd
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
The article (Portuguese only) is mainly fluff and doesn't go into any details:

Maybe it will be operated as an extension of the CCS flight? Just making a wild guess. Could TP get 5th freedom rights?

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
dutchjet
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:05 am

TAP has found a very good and profitable niche on its routes to Brazil.....TAP is the easiest and most effecient way to travel between most Brazilian and most European cities and its likely that TAP will continue to expand in this market. Passengers appreciate avoiding connections at Sao Paolo or Rio.....especially when it saves hours of backtracking (Brazil is a big country, flying four hours in the wrong direction from MAO to GRU to pick up a flight to Europe, quite frankly, is pretty ridiculous). The fact that Varig can no longer be considered a major player in the Brazil-Europe markets is another incentive for TAP to continue to expand. My guess is that MAO will see service from TAP just as soon as the details can be arranged....maybe a onestop flight to start and nonstop flights in the nearterm future once TAP has received a few more new airplanes.

Its always good to see an airline succeed by taking chances and thinking outside of the box.......for years the "regional airports" in Brazil (which serve huge cities with large populations) have been ignored by the airlines in favor of service to GRU and GIG......TAP took the chance of opening services to SSA and REC and did well, good for them!! TAP as found an underserved market where demand is strong and yeilds are reasonable......makes more sense than competing with all of the airlines flying countless flights between Europe and the US.
 
tiago701
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:31 am

Quoting Neo (Reply 5):
MAO in the other hand is typically a tourist low-yield destination

Hi Filipe... Didn't know that, I thought MAO was a high yield destination, exclusive / alternative and expensive leisure type of destination combined with a healthy number of business links.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):
They could use a flight 4x LIS-MAO-BSB-LIS , 3x LIS-BSB-MAO-LIS

Personally i'm never too keen on multi stop flights as it will not add too much value for the pax coming from Europe connecting in LIS for example. I would prefer 4x LIS-MAO-LIS and 3x LIS-BSB-LIS, but your suggestion allows to serve both markets daily with the same aircraft. Don't know what could work better to test the market though...

That obviously depends on the market mix in MAO and BSB, do you have any numbers on this Filipe?

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):
Tiago, there are some maintenance scheduled for the A343 fleet during the IATA winter (GIG and GRU during january IIRC will receive A332 on both services to LIS and OPO during some days of the week). It could explain the use for this new A310 to replace and freeing one A332

Yeah, you are right.. I didn't know that... Thanks for the info. The A332 and A343 is going to GIG and GRU on alternate days during January and February... But i think that even with this A343 maintenance they could open a new route to Brazil if they decided to do it now..

Assuming that the A310 can't reach BSB or MAO...If TP deploy the extra A310 to SSA they could make use of the A332 for the new route while the A343 is out for maintenance.. Just a thought..

This may seem a stupid question, but why can't the A310 do LIS-BSB (3928 nm) or LIS-MAO (3765 nm) if the maximum range for the A313 is more than 4300 nm with max pax, fuel and reserves? If it's taking max payload what would the range restrictions be?
 
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LTU932
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:29 am

Quoting Tiago701 (Reply 10):
the maximum range for the A313 is more than 4300 nm

That's the max range of the A310-200. An A310-300 can do up to 5000 nm nonstop if I'm not mistaken.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:12 am

Quoting Tiago701 (Reply 10):
Personally i'm never too keen on multi stop flights as it will not add too much value for the pax coming from Europe connecting in LIS for example. I would prefer 4x LIS-MAO-LIS and 3x LIS-BSB-LIS, but your suggestion allows to serve both markets daily with the same aircraft. Don't know what could work better to test the market though...

During some time TP used to fly LIS-GIG-GRU-LIS on tuesdays with a single plane. Even with a stop Tiago, a flight LIS-MAO-BSB will be better and faster than a LIS-GIG / GIG-BSB, and the multi stop could help TP to add value. If in the near future one of the cities become stronger, it could receive a dedicated non-stop. As you said, it's a good way to test the market.

Quoting Tiago701 (Reply 10):
That obviously depends on the market mix in MAO and BSB, do you have any numbers on this Filipe?

Manaus is a dense industrial zone and a premium touristic destination, a very expensive city (almost everything comes thru cargo planes). Electronics are the main industry but we can say also about scientific activities as well as tourism. Honda, Matsushita (Panasonic), Toshiba, Samsung, LG, Philips, Siemens, Nokia, Coca-Cola, JVC, Sony, Sanyo, Aiwa and others are units or agreements / license to run business there. The Amazon rain forest explains the attractive for tourism. Population is about 1,5 million. Manaus is a natural hub (not A hub nowadays) for BVB and RBR.
Brasilia is the capital, embassies and the First Level public sector are located there as well as Banco do Brasil and other major public banks are located there, among other important state-owned companies like Infraero (which manages airports), Embrapa (public research on agriculture), Anatel (Telecom Agency), Anvisa (Public Healthy Agency), Central Bank, Embratur, Anac (Aviation Agency), among others. Brasilia is investing on the seminars industry to get more visitors. Population is about 2,0 million. BSB is a hub for closer places like Goiania, Cuiaba, Campo Grande, Palmas and Porto Velho. Almost 10% of brazilians are closer to BSB than Rio or Sao Paulo.
If we imagine the power of Brasilia-Europe market we will realize that the flight could be a winner as TP could offer better conditions to embassies, diplomatic visitors to reach BSB. And to people from BSB, an easy access to Europe.

Quoting Tiago701 (Reply 10):
This may seem a stupid question, but why can't the A310 do LIS-BSB (3928 nm) or LIS-MAO (3765 nm) if the maximum range for the A313 is more than 4300 nm with max pax, fuel and reserves? If it's taking max payload what would the range restrictions be?

MAO is not a problem for the A310, but BSB probably is, as the city it's not on sea-level (about 1,400m) and runaways are not so long. An A310 with full cargo could face problems for a non-stop to LIS. I'm not a technical specialist so i used the word "probably", if someone can help me on this, thanks in advance!

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Avianca
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 8):
Maybe it will be operated as an extension of the CCS flight? Just making a wild guess. Could TP get 5th freedom rights?

Luis, thought about the same, upgrade the CCS service to a A330 and extend into MAO, could be work.
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hardiwv
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:10 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 13):
Luis, thought about the same, upgrade the CCS service to a A330 and extend into MAO, could be work.

I agree: TAP could increase flights to CCS to daily and create a tag-on to MAO operating LIS-CCS-MAO. Further, TAP could put RG codeshare on the CCS-MAO leg therefore freeing up RG from another route and getting 5th freedom rights for the CCS-MAO run.

Rgs,
 
airbazar
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting Tiago701 (Reply 10):
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):
They could use a flight 4x LIS-MAO-BSB-LIS , 3x LIS-BSB-MAO-LIS

Personally i'm never too keen on multi stop flights as it will not add too much value for the pax coming from Europe connecting in LIS for example. I would prefer 4x LIS-MAO-LIS and 3x LIS-BSB-LIS, but your suggestion allows to serve both markets daily with the same aircraft. Don't know what could work better to test the market though...

Yeah, but MAO is mostly low yield tourist traffic and your average tourist doesn't care much about the extra stop. It's akeen to flying on a charter at odd hours of the day and with a refueling stop. What matters the most is the price and that you get there  Smile TP is not new to triangular routes to both Brazil and Africa so I'd say this is a possibility although personally I too would prefer the 3+4 weekly setup.
 
2travel2know
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:07 am

If TP wants to fill up their proposed flights to MAO, then what TP should do is try to get 5th freedom in either GEO or PBM... lots of passengers would connect on LIS from London to GEO and from AMS to PBM !
As for BSB flights, if they could combine them with CNF, TP would make sure that when one city doesn't do well the other could.
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MAH4546
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:56 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 15):
Yeah, but MAO is mostly low yield tourist traffic and your average tourist doesn't care much about the extra stop. It's akeen to flying on a charter at odd hours of the day and with a refueling stop. What matters the most is the price and that you get there Smile TP is not new to triangular routes to both Brazil and Africa so I'd say this is a possibility although personally I too would prefer the 3+4 weekly setup.

MAO is hardly low-yield tourist traffic. Eco-tourism is tradtionally high-yield. It is not arranged through holiday vacation packages, but usually tailored through high-end travel agencies and holiday companies. Hardly low-yield. Not to mention Manaus is a major industrial production centre in Northeast Brazil, the largest at that, and the unofficial business capital of the Amazon region. Do you really think TAM fills a daily Miami-Manaus flight with tourists? Hardly.
a.
 
Amazonphil
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RE: TAP Looks At Flying To Manaus

Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:30 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
Manaus is a dense industrial zone and a premium touristic destination, a very expensive city (almost everything comes thru cargo planes).

This is true but the city is actually a city of opposite extremes. It has it's non-expensive parts as well because of it's "Zona Franca" (free zone) status. It's a great tourist destination especially for the outdoor sportsman, especially in the fishing area. Also, it's world famous sea(or river) port provides a wide variety of reasonably priced different river trip packages up the Rio Negro, to the Upper Amazon (known was the Alto Solimoes) to the Colombian,Peruvian borders, up the Purus river to the state of Acre, and other river basins.

Regards,
amazonphil
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