bhxdtw
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Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:20 am

Hey guys !!
Ok I have one for you....
Quite a simple one for a lot of you but.. can someone please (in easy to understand english) explain the Bermuda II ruling ??

I had someone ask me the other day why DL/CO/US/NW cant fly into LHR and why does BA have to fly into DFW from LGW if AA fly from LGW..

I was lost for a decent explanaition.

Can someone explain the rulings and reasonings in an easy to underdtand guide ?? any help is reeeallllly appreciated as im not too up on it..

Joe
 
B742
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:24 am

Hi Joe!

Breif Sumary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_II

Full Explanation
http://www.publications.parliament.u...00/cmselect/cmenvtra/532/53206.htm

Only two US and two UK carriers are aloud to fly USA-LHR flights.

Can someone tell me why AI and KU fly LHR-JFK and AI fly LHR-ORD, did they already fly the route before the Bermuda rulings came along?

Rob!  wave 
 
ANother
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:40 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 1):
Can someone tell me why AI and KU fly LHR-JFK and AI fly LHR-ORD, did they already fly the route before the Bermuda rulings came along?

Bermuda II doesn't apply to non-US/UK airlines. AI, for example, gets LON-JFK 5th freedom rights from both the India-UK and India-USA bilateral Air Services Agreements. These agreements do not restrict rights to certain airports (although I suspect there is some limited city-pair restriction).

Bermuda II is not a 'ruling' but an agreement between two sovereign states. Both parties agreed on the limitations. Bermuda I (1946) was much more restricted in respect of route rights.
 
jfk777
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:13 am

Basically it created a concept known as "THE HEATHROW FOUR". BA, VIRIGIN, AA AND UA are the current four. It regulated all other USA airlines to Gatwick airport. Delta was in suck a hurry to get to London from Atlanta while Jimmy Carter was in the White House the Brits shafted the Americans with this crumy deal in 1977. All new airline would fly to Gatwick airport.

Airlines from other parts of the world faced a similar "Gatwick" mandate until 1991 when LHR was re-opened to post 1977 airlines. Interestingly airlines like Cathay, ANZ, ANA and others that had started servcie to London before 1991 but after 1977 went running to LHR while the door was open. This "Gatwick" Mandate was without mercy for even British airlines, British Caledonian flew all its schedule from LGW. Even Virgin when it started was "Gatwicked", in 1991 it transferred as many services it could to LHR(JFK, EWR, NRT and LAX). The 1991 re-opening of LHR occured because of the need to get UA and AA(replacing TWA and Pan AM) into LHR so the Brits had to let all the other airlines in too. Gatwick should mean " to hell with the colonies", not only the USA but all of them, that's the airport the Brits tried to send all the lesser airlines too.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:36 am

If you search in the Civ-Av archives, you'll come up with a number of good threads on Bermuda II, a popular topic here.

This is still the definitive thread on it:
Bermuda II Synopsis (by B747-437B Jun 12 2002 in Civil Aviation)

And this thread has a full copy of the treaty:
Bermuda II Accord - F.O.I.A. Request? (by AeroWesty Mar 7 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Using Search Topic with the phrase *bermuda* (using the * as wildcards to catch more hits) and clicking "Only Thread-starters", will help bring up the relative threads more easily, rather than having to sort through a list of all the replies to each thread.
International Homo of Mystery
 
jfk777
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:42 am

Poor Gatwick is like the fat sister the family tries to hide, so everyone put their eyes on the pretty skinny daughter instead.
 
Avatordon
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:49 am

This is confusing. AA is one of the LHR 4, but cannot fly there from DFW (or RDU); must fly to LGW. These were "new" routes for AA. But what about MIA? That was not part of TW deal, but they fly to LHR. And if US must fly from PHL to LGW, why doesn't the same restriction apply to BA from LGW instead of LHR? It has to be the most convoluted thing I've ever seen!
 
aircanada014
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:27 am

It would be nice to see CO and US in LHR....
 
albird87
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:43 am

Can you not imagine if the Bermuda II agreement was abolished then can you see all the American cariers plus BMI rush at the chanve to operate to/from LHR?!?! It would really lower prices i think from the other carriers trying to compete on those routes. The only thing restricting this (if it happened) would be the time slots at LHR as like its already restricted but imagine terminal 3 with CO, UA, AA, NW, US, DL, BMI, VA. Not to mention the new business carriers such as Max jet and Eos.
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:57 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 3):
Gatwick should mean " to hell with the colonies", not only the USA but all of them, that's the airport the Brits tried to send all the lesser airlines too.

In addition to the 'lesser' cities of Houston, Dallas and Atlanta.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 5):
Poor Gatwick is like the fat sister the family tries to hide, so everyone put their eyes on the pretty skinny daughter instead.

Hash but an element of truth to that statement.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:06 am

Bermuda 2 in a nutshell, if that's possible:

Only 2 US airlines and 2 British airlines allowed access to USA-Heathrow. Those airlines are BA, VS, AA and UA. Those airlines can only fly to Heathrow from the following US gateways: JFK, EWR, BOS, IAD, MIA, DTW, PHL, ORD, LAX, SFO and SEA. These two provisions need to be met in order to operate services to Heathrow. All other US and UK airlines and gateways are prohibied from flying to Heathrow. This is why, for example, DL cannot perate JFK-Heathrow becuase even though JFK is a designated gateway, DL is not a designated airline.

There are more twists and what-if's, but this is the very broad overview of B2.
 
nateDAL
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:17 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
And this thread has a full copy of the treaty:

Bermuda II Accord - F.O.I.A. Request? (by AeroWesty Mar 7 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Actually, that is not the entire treaty.

I didn't realize at the time, but the post size limitations cut it off about half way through, including the section that deals with LGW. I have posted that short paragraph in other threads.

It is 58 pages in a MS Word doctument. If anyone wants to host the file to share with the rest of the board, I can e-mail you a PDF or MS Word file.
Set Love Free
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting NateDAL (Reply 11):
I didn't realize at the time, but the post size limitations cut it off about half way through, including the section that deals with LGW.

Oh, I didn't realize that, thanks for the heads up! I thought it was just a few of the addendums that didn't post.

Quoting NateDAL (Reply 11):
If anyone wants to host the file to share with the rest of the board, I can e-mail you a PDF or MS Word file.

I'll send you my e-mail address by IM. I'll test it out to see if I can create a link to the space on my .Mac account where both Mac and PC users can access it. Downloads from that site are usually very fast.
International Homo of Mystery
 
nateDAL
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:26 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):

I'll send you my e-mail address by IM. I'll test it out to see if I can create a link to the space on my .Mac account where both Mac and PC users can access it. Downloads from that site are usually very fast.

sent
Set Love Free
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:04 pm

Quoting NateDAL (Reply 13):
sent

Got it, thanks! I'll set something up in the morning when my brain is awake, so I do it right.  Smile
International Homo of Mystery
 
kaitak744
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:46 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 10):
Those airlines are BA, VS, AA and UA. Those airlines can only fly to Heathrow from the following US gateways: JFK, EWR, BOS, IAD, MIA, DTW, PHL, ORD, LAX, SFO and SEA.



Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 10):
All other US and UK airlines and gateways are prohibied from flying to Heathrow.

That is not true. From Heathrow, BA serves SEA, SFO, LAX, DEN, PHX, IAH, ORD, DTW, MIA EWR, JFK, BOS, PHL, IAD, and Baltimore.

By the way, this was signed on July 23, 1977. At that time, Virgin did not exist. So, who was the other British airline?

Also, are AI and KU allowed to sell their "grandfather rights" to another airline?
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:14 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 15):
By the way, this was signed on July 23, 1977. At that time, Virgin did not exist. So, who was the other British airline?

Bermuda II has been amended a few times, and I believe it was when the sale of the Pan Am and TWA routes were authorized, Virgin was named as an additional airline to the agreement. There's an explanation of it all in another one of the recent Bermuda threads.

(We should really do a Bermuda FAQ with all these questions and answers.)
International Homo of Mystery
 
BCAL
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:20 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 15):
By the way, this was signed on July 23, 1977. At that time, Virgin did not exist. So, who was the other British airline?

You should remember that until 1987 BA was a state-owned airline, highly protected and heavily subsidised by the UK Government. Whilst under state-ownership, no UK airline was permitted to operate in direct competition with BA particularly on its long-haul routes previously operated by BOAC. A government white paper did recommend the creation of a second-force UK airline and this was filled by British United Airways (BUA) who were acquired by Caledonian Airways (the original, not the JMC charter airline) and became Caledonian/BUA and later British Caledonian (BCal). BOAC transferred its non-profitable South American and West African routes to BUA who soon turned the losses into profits.

Protecting BA like a mother hen, the UK Government disregarded most of the recommendations of the white paper and restricted BUA/BCal to operating from LGW only. Until the airline was taken over by BA, seeking a second base at LGW, BCal was always denied access to LHR.

Interestingly, a second UK airline was designated to operate between London and New York in the late 1970s. BCal was the obvious candidate but the licence was instead temporarily granted to Sir Freddie Laker’s low-cost “Skytrain” service. The initial 12-month licence was extended and shortly afterwards Laker’s Skytrain was the second UK airline on routes between London (albeit LGW), JFK, LAX and MIA with additional services to Tampa and Orlando. BCal was the second UK airline on routes to the middle USA – i.e. LGW to Atlanta, Dallas Fort Worth, and Houston.

Laker went bankrupt in 1982, allegedly due to a conspiracy by BA, PanAm, TWA, BCal, LH and others. For a short while, BCal operated LGW/JFK but they were taken over by BA in 1988. Since BA then had a monopoly on many services from LHR and LGW, other airlines were permitted to tender for some of these services. Enter Branson who then had a handful of third-hand 742s and had been operating a (very erratic) back-packers’ airline. There was no doubt that the merger of BCal into BA saved VS. The agony of BCal’s employees was Branson’s ecstasy - “it’s fantastic, bloody fantastic. Virgin is now the second UK airline and can compete fairly with BA” Branson was quoted as saying on the demise of BCal, dancing on its grave.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
BCAL
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:55 pm

Sorry, slight correction to the above: BCal was the sole UK airline on routes between London to Atlanta, Dallas Fort Worth and Houston until its merger with BA. Laker operated in competition with BA (albeit from LGW, MAN and Prestwick) with BA on routes to JFK, LAX and MIA.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
sam1987
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:51 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 15):
From Heathrow, BA serves SEA, SFO, LAX, DEN, PHX, IAH, ORD, DTW, MIA EWR, JFK, BOS, PHL, IAD, and BWI.

Not quite. IAH is served from LGW only.
Next flights: LGW-LBA-LGW, LHR-SIN-SYD, SYD-BKK-LHR, LGW-GRO, GRO-CIA, CIA-MAD, MAD-LGW
 
sv2008
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:59 pm

LGW wouldn't be so bad if they added a 2nd runway, and rebuilt/replaced the two terminals (most airports look like they were built in the 1970's on the outside but LGW is the only one to continue with this theme on the inside).
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 15):
DEN, PHX, IAH

BA serves LGW-IAH and LHR-ORD-IAH. They do not serve Houston non-stop from Heathrow.

DEN, PHX, ah yes, one of the "what-if's" I mentioned:
BA is allowed to operate Heathrow-DEN/PHX because there is a provision allowing them to do as long as no Heathrow-designated US airline operates these flights. If, for example, UA decides to launch DEN-London, both the exsisting BA flight and the new UA flight would switch to Gatwick. Same for PHX.
 
sam1987
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting Sam1987 (Reply 19):
Not quite. IAH is served from LGW only.

Sorry I meant "IAH is served direct from LGW only", as BigGSFO pointed out:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 21):
BA serves LGW-IAH and LHR-ORD-IAH
Next flights: LGW-LBA-LGW, LHR-SIN-SYD, SYD-BKK-LHR, LGW-GRO, GRO-CIA, CIA-MAD, MAD-LGW
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:39 am

Bermuda 2 also has market capacity restraints on it which is just as significant as what airports can be served and by what airlines. Airlines are not free to add capacity at will but most do so within the guidelines at timelines established under the treaty.

It is for that reason that I argued for years (and ultimately was shown to be right) that DL could not add JFK-LGW if it wanted to and was only able to gain access even to LGW because it bought UA’s frequency rights to the market; because DL is not an LHR airline, it had to use the frequencies to LGW.

The irony is that Bermuda 2 only applies to LGW and LHR while most of the rest of the UK essentially has open skies.

Bermuda 2 is an agreement that should be tossed out just like the Wright Amendment – and without any back room deals to protect a few carriers. Maybe, just maybe, BA will be convicted of price fixing in the current cargo and passenger cases against them with the result that London’s airports must be opened to greater competition. No other city in the world has such restrictive access to its airports.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 23):
Bermuda 2 is an agreement that should be tossed out just like the Wright Amendment – and without any back room deals to protect a few carriers. Maybe, just maybe, BA will be convicted of price fixing in the current cargo and passenger cases against them with the result that London’s airports must be opened to greater competition. No other city in the world has such restrictive access to its airports.

Slot availability aside, I agree. Bermuda 2 is somewhat of a relic of a time when restrictive bilaterals ruled the skies. Remember when Narita was the holy grail of authorities? I also remember when France was one of the most restricted markets around and now we have open skies.

Today's international marketplace has outpaced Bermuda 2.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:10 am

Okay, I've hosted copies of the Bermuda II Accord graciously supplied by NateDAL in both PDF and Word DOC formats.

The URL is: http://homepage.mac.com/westy/FileSharing6.html

Let me know if you have any problems downloading.

Thanks!
International Homo of Mystery
 
vv701
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:24 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 23):
No other city in the world has such restrictive access to its airports.

This is not quite correct. There are no, repeat no restrictions at all on any American airline flying from any US airport to London provided they use STN or LTN airports.

While there are restrictions on flying to LHR and LGW so there are restrictions on where UK airlines can fly to from LHR and LGW. Bermuda II effectively restricts British airlines flying from these airports to all US cities except those listed in the treaty. These are Atlanta, Boston, Charlotte, Chicago, Dallas-Fort Worth, Denver, Detroit, Houston, Las Vegas (not in original Bermuda II but added in April 2000), Los Angeles, Miami, New York City (ex La Guardia), Orlando, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, San Diego, San Fransisco (incl. OAK and SJC), Seattle, Tampa and Washington DC (incl. both IAD and BWI.)

So it can be aregued that while US airlines can fly to any British city of their choice (such as BRS, EDI or NCL) and including London from their own hubs BA and VS are prohibited from flying from their main hubs of LHR and LGW to all but a handful of US cities (even if all or most of the main centres and holiday destinations are included in that handful).

By the way those US airlines with access to LHR can only fly there from a similar but not identical list of US cities that includes, for example, Anchorage, Minneapolis-St Paul and St Louis, cities that UK airlines cannot access from LHR or LGW. So these US cities haver identical restrictions to those that WorldTraveller claims a little inaccurately apply to London.

In summary Bermuda II is not as simple as most believe it is and any general comment or criticism is therefore almost certain to be rebuttable in some way. Otherwise those protecting Bermuda II today and resisting an Open Skies like the agreement reached earlier this year between the UK and Canada would not be led by CO and the US Congress.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:15 am

I'm not arguing the tiny little points of Bermuda 2 because that's not the point. There is nothing that stops any UK carrier from setting up operations in one of the open access airports either and since it is on their soil, they would have an advantage.

I have said and stand by it that London is the most restricted access city in the world. Tokyo would come next in line but you can actually buy slots into NRT and the bilateral doe allow more flights. STN is simply not a viable alternative for accessing London although even STN will see more and more int'l service if Bermuda 2 isn't overturned.

Right now, though, the US is holding the entire EU by the proverbial neck because the US will not allow any EU open skies proposals to move forward until London is opened. And it should be the Europeans that open London to more aviation activity. You can bet that the British gov't will somehow manage to find a way to make LHR grow when T5 is opened and the US needs to tell the EU nothing will happen until LHR is opened.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:26 pm

The longer Bermuda II stays in force (and LHR/LGW fail to expand their facilities) the bigger AMS, CDG, and FRA will get. This is probably a more potent incentive for the Brits to do something than any US prodding is.
 
ANother
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:54 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 27):
Right now, though, the US is holding the entire EU by the proverbial neck because the US will not allow any EU open skies proposals to move forward until London is opened. And it should be the Europeans that open London to more aviation activity. You can bet that the British gov't will somehow manage to find a way to make LHR grow when T5 is opened and the US needs to tell the EU nothing will happen until LHR is opened.

For a more accurate description of where US-EU (including UK) open skies stands, have a look at Jeff Shane's comments to International Aviation Club a couple of days ago.

Synopsis

- US cannot deliver ownership and control changes requested by Europeans.
- Europeans (BRU) can't get agreement from Member States without something (even the limited face saving changes in interpretation proposed by DOT)
- If open skies doesn't proceed BRU will be forced (by the European Court) to require Member States to abrogate their Air Services Agreements (both the liberal open skies and restricted agreements like UK)
- If (or when) ASAs are abrogated then DOT will be forced to remove anti-trust immunity from alliance agreements.

Mr. Shane is putting out a worst-case scenario - but it may not be as unlikely as some think. We are in for some interesting times.
 
jeffry747
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:18 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 21):
They do not serve Houston non-stop from Heathrow.

IIRC Didn't BA have a nonstop from IAH-LGW during the late 80s or early 90s? I recall many a time being in the Int'l terminal at IAH back then and hearing the boarding calls saying "nonstop service to London" I also read in a book that at one time BA had 7 747-200s based solely out of LGW. They were unofficially dubbed "The Gatwick 7" The one I remember seeing the most was G-BDXI "City of Cambridge" Does anyone know what the other 6 were?
C'mon Big B, FLY!
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:28 pm

Quoting Jeffry747 (Reply 30):
IIRC Didn't BA have a nonstop from IAH-LGW during the late 80s or early 90s?

They still do. A route I believe they inherited from British Caledonian.
International Homo of Mystery
 
BCAL
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:03 pm

Quoting Jeffry747 (Reply 30):
at one time BA had 7 747-200s based solely out of LGW. They were unofficially dubbed "The Gatwick 7" The one I remember seeing the most was G-BDXI "City of Cambridge" Does anyone know what the other 6 were?

They were probably the 742s previously owned/operated by British Caledonian
  • G-BJXN 20527/179
  • G-GLYN 21516/326
  • G-HUGE 21252/297
  • G-CITB 22579/514
  • G-NIGB 21517/368
That is only five. This sixth aircraft might have been G-BDPZ (19745/108) but this belonged to Aer Lingus and was leased by BCal.

Quoting Jeffry747 (Reply 30):
Didn't BA have a nonstop from IAH-LGW during the late 80s or early 90s

As AeroWesty said, this is a route that BA inherited from BCal, along with LGW-Atlanta and LGW-Dallas/Fort Worth.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
jfk777
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:15 pm

In a nurshell, to fly to LHR 3 conditions must be met:

1) Be one of the 4 airlines, BA, VS, UA and AA.

2) Fly from one of the cities eligible for LHR service.

3) Have a slot at LHR.
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:33 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 15):
By the way, this was signed on July 23, 1977.



Quoting B742 (Reply 1):
Can someone tell me why AI and KU fly LHR-JFK and AI fly LHR-ORD, did they already fly the route before the Bermuda rulings came along?

AI, I think, started flying BOM-LHR-JFK way back in 1961 or 62......with the B707.... smile 

They've been flying the route continuously for the last 44-45 years, without a break....in the mid 1970's, it was converted to all 747 service....LHR-ORD started only in 1996, I think....
 
vv701
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 27):
You can bet that the British gov't will somehow manage to find a way to make LHR grow when T5 is opened and the US needs to tell the EU nothing will happen until LHR is opened.

This cannot happen. As you will have gathered from Mr Shane's talk to the International Aviation Club in Washington DC, the EU and not the UK is responsible for aviation policy within the EU. Further LHR T5 is predicated on a legally enforceable (i.e. through the courts) maximum number of movements at LHR of 480,000. Currently about 472,000 slots are in use and the UK government has initiated an investigation into the possibility of mixed mode use of the two existing LHR runways so that the theoretical 480,000 slots could become 480,000 actual slots.

In the meantime others are taking advantage of the current situation. Both AC and BA are commencing additional LHR-Canada services this autumn (to YEG and YYC) now there is a UK-Canada Open Skies agreement. So while the US Congress dilly dallies and procrastinates others - like AC - are taking up those few slots that would have been available to CO, DL, NW and US.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 29):
have a look at Jeff Shane's comments to International Aviation Club a couple of days ago.

Thank you for that reference. Mr Shane does a good job of presenting the Bush administration's point of view.

The consequences of the US's doing nothing are probably not so severe as he portrays. The EU members have ignored Court of Justice decrees before; and the commerce is too valuable for the members to allow it to come to a court-ordered halt.
 
ANother
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 36):
The EU members have ignored Court of Justice decrees before; and the commerce is too valuable for the members to allow it to come to a court-ordered halt.

I am advised that this case, which has gone almost four years, is the longest ever that a ECJ decree has gone unactioned. This is the dilema facing Brussels (and not the Member States) - they cannot continue to do nothing - they have to either fix the problem (which open skies would do) or direct the MSs to abrogate their agreements with the US. The MSs can no more ignore the ECJ than the DOT could ignore the US Supreme Court.

The EC has dug themselves a pretty big hole, and they have only themselves to blame for this, but the hole exists. Mr. Shane's views are indeed a worst-case scenario but, as I said above, we are in for interesting times.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 37):
The MSs can no more ignore the ECJ than the DOT could ignore the US Supreme Court.

As you point out, the ECJ decision is four years old and nothing has happened. I would say the Court, effectively, is being ignored right now.

Interesting times, to say the least. It's fascinating watching the EU deal with the same federal vs. state issues the US went through early in its history.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 28):
The longer Bermuda II stays in force (and LHR/LGW fail to expand their facilities) the bigger AMS, CDG, and FRA will get. This is probably a more potent incentive for the Brits to do something than any US prodding is.

I have echoed most of those sentiments in other posts on this subject.

A well-run alternative will emerge one day as passenger traffic continues to climb, and I forsee that more and more O&D traffic will be the makeup of London's airports, probably at premium prices.

The question will be, will the traffic siphoned off to other hubs on the continent be of significant enough value to be sustainable and profitable to continue. So far, it does appear that way.
International Homo of Mystery
 
BOE773
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:10 am

Bermuda 11 flies smack against the face of the free enterprise system just to protect 4 old mother hens of airlines. This archaic agrement needs to be blown out the door and allow freedom for competition.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 33):
In a nurshell, to fly to LHR 3 conditions must be met:

1) Be one of the 4 airlines, BA, VS, UA and AA.

2) Fly from one of the cities eligible for LHR service.

3) Have a slot at LHR.

And service levels have to be within the allowable limits of Bermuda 2.

Trade restrictions in one market cause that market to be increasingly isolated from the rest of the world and that is what is happening to the British, esp. British Airways.

I wouldn’t call what the US is doing as dilly dallying around. The US indeed has the upper hand in this contest right now. The EU wants greater access to the US market and for Euro carriers to be able to consolidate. The US can and will block all of that unless ALL US carriers have reasonable access to whatever airports in the UK they want to serve.

Since CO, DL, and US are all aggressively expanding to Europe and beyond, the US carriers do indeed gain more and more while the European carriers lose what they do have if the current open skies agreements and antitrust agreements are cancelled. US carriers have costs that are much lower than the Europeans and can overfly European hubs to expand. Europeans can probably not add much more service to the US which is their only way to increase their US revenues.

The US will either get access to LHR for all US carriers or the entire European airline industry will suffer – and it may anyway.
 
jfk777
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:50 am

Bermuda II was a deal made by Jimmy Carter to get Delta to Londo Fast & a Labor Government(Social old Labor) previous to Margaret Thatcher's 1979-1990 Tory Government.
 
vv701
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 23):
The irony is that Bermuda 2 only applies to LGW and LHR while most of the rest of the UK essentially has open skies.

Yes. But this is far from the case in the USA where the airports that can be served and the frequencies with which they can be served are highly restrictive. No doubt this is one reason why the US DoT is having to fight the US Congress so hard to move towards true Open Skies on both sides of the Atlantic

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 27):
There is nothing that stops any UK carrier from setting up operations in one of the open access airports either and since it is on their soil, they would have an advantage.

Again this is rhetoric. What is this discussion all about. Basically giving the likes of DL access to LHR. So if this access is so valuable why are UA withdrawing from this route. Simply because they cannot make it pay because JFK is not a UA hub. So while the likes of AA, CO, DL, US and UA can profitably operate from their hubs to ANY UK city or cities of their choice (including LON but excepting AA and UA not LHR with some restrictions on operations to LGW) it would be as uneconomic for BA, BD or VS to operate to any US city from British cities like BHX, BRS, EDI, GLA and NCL as it is for UA to operate from NYC to LHR.

Of course DL should be allowed to operate into LHR with the NYC to LON flight authority they bought from UA. But while the USA Congress retains its protectionist stance criticised by Mr Shane in his speech this will not happen. So the US Congress resistance to an Open Skies agreement with the EU will turn one of the world's most important international air routes into a One World dominated route. Of course the situation is not helped by all the power on this side of the Atlantic being in the hands of the EU. It is flexing its muscles (with some justification) and is very anti Bermuda II. If the UK government was still responsible I am sure that they would take a more pragmatic approach and allow a temporary renegotiation of Bermuda II to allow DL access to LHR while Open Skies discussions were still in progress.
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 15):
Also, are AI and KU allowed to sell their "grandfather rights" to another airline?

I think AI did lend/lease, whatever, some rights to VS....that's how VS was able to start flights to India in the first place....correct me if I'm wrong (which I may be)....
 
ANother
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 44):
I think AI did lend/lease, whatever, some rights to VS....that's how VS was able to start flights to India in the first place....correct me if I'm wrong (which I may be)....

You are wrong. The rights enjoyed by AI are rights for Indian airlines. The Indian Government could designate another Indian Airline to operate 3rd/4th UK-India, but these rights can not be transferred to a non-Indian airline.

Now - it may be true that AI leased 'slots' at LHR to VS. That is possible.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:52 am

The US' airports are the most open in the world. There is no US airport where a LFC carrier cannot begin service. And US airports have capacity limits but there are only 4 that have any capacity limitations and those are being relaxed year by year. Is Europe doing that? And there are perimeter rules limiting service but all carriers are affected - and there are exemptions on even those rules. US airports are the most accessible in the world. There is no proof otherwise, despite how defensive the British would like to be.

The free market should decide what routes are served by which airlines. In a world where there aren't enough resources for everyone to get what they want, price determines the value of the service. If a slot at LHR can generate more revenue and public benefit flying a long haul service, then that slot should be used for long haul services instead of a domestic service within the UK.
 
ANother
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 46):
The free market should decide what routes are served by which airlines. In a world where there aren't enough resources for everyone to get what they want, price determines the value of the service.

Couldn't agree more. Would you kindly inform your Congress that Ryanair should be allowed to operate NYC-BOS or any other US route? Thank you.
 
vv701
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 46):
The US' airports are the most open in the world.

On a.net there are 18 photos of PA 727s and 11 photos of PA 737s operating to other Eurpopean destinations out of LHR under the 5th freedom rights granted under Bermuda II:

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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.
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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.


There are also three photos of UA 727s operating on European routes out of LHR:

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Photo © Tim Rees


Similarly there are photos of Presidential BAe 146s operated by Presidential crews on behalf of BA out of UK airports on internal UK routes:

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Photo © Fergal Goodman


and American Trans Air 727s operated by US crews on behalf of BA on European routes and Atlas Air 744s operating with American crews for BA World Cargo out of STN and PIK to destinations in Africa, Asia, Europe and North America:

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Photo © JetPix
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Photo © Adam Rowden


The only time anything like this was tried in the USA was when Braniff leased BA and AF Concordes to fly the IAD-DFW route. To make this legally possible BA had to get UK CAA authority to give their fleet an American style alpha numeric registration:

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Photo © Matthew R N Clarkson


BA then flew the aircraft LHR-IAD carrying this registration. When it got to IAD a sticker was put over the 'G' and the aircraft was then registered to Braniff and flown by a Braniff crew IAD-DFW-IAD as it would be illegal for a British registered aircraft to operate out of IAD to DFW even with an American crew. (The British registration papers 'hidden' in a small cupboard installed especially in the rear toilet.) On arrival back at IAD the aircraft had to be reregistered to the UK (and the sticker over the 'G' removed) because it would have been illegal for a British crew to fly an airliner on the US register.

So US airports clearly cannot be 'the most open in the world' because while US crews can fly US registered aircraft on flights from and within the UK on behalf of British airlines and while UA still have 5th freedom rights to fly from LHR (and PIK) to certain European destinations, the reverse is simply not possible at any airport in the USA because of the US restrictions that do not exist in many other countries.

And then if you are trying to get a new airline off the ground in the USA like

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Photo © Matthew Phillips


you either have to forget it or be very, very patient because if you want to operate out of 'the most open [airports] in the world' you may find that they are not quite as open as some would like you to believe even if your airline is 75 per cent American owned.
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: Can Someone Explain Bermuda II?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:48 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 45):
You are wrong. The rights enjoyed by AI are rights for Indian airlines. The Indian Government could designate another Indian Airline to operate 3rd/4th UK-India, but these rights can not be transferred to a non-Indian airline.

Now - it may be true that AI leased 'slots' at LHR to VS. That is possible.

That's exactly why I said 'lend / lease', if you read my post carefully.....I'm only pointing out that VS started flying to India using AI's rights which AI could not utilise due to shortage of aircrafts......I don't know if this arrangement continues today....

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