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chrisnh
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Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:36 pm

The 'new' terminal is lovely, but DL seems to have done little with it. Have they given up on expanding service at Logan? Transcon was a bust, it seems, both (yes, both) times they tried it. And service to Europe won't happen unless DL can fly to/from their own terminal rather than the Massport vault over at Terminal E.

Is this a case of 'what you see is what you get' regarding Delta at Logan?

Chris in NH
 
fewsolarge
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:00 pm

I'd say in the short term, yes. They have scarce assets to redeploy, and it seems BOS will come up a distant fourth behind ATL, JFK, SLC and LAX. Makes you wonder what opportunity price Massport is willing to pay to be stubborn.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:09 pm

For now, it appears that way. They will add a few CRJ markets here and there, like TTN or YQB, but that's about it for now.

Lord knows what DL's operation at BOS would be looking like today is Massport had officially allowed DL have FIS in their terminal before DL got serious about their massive expansion from JFK. Sure, they'd still don't flights to places like PVR or KBP, but CDG, FRA, DUB/SNN would definitely have been on the map, combined of course with all other Skyteam flights in the same terminal. That of course could then have also led to more domestic flights to feed the Euro flights, and so on. Alas, things weren't meant to be that way.
 
N1120A
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:15 pm

Quoting Fewsolarge (Reply 1):
They have scarce assets to redeploy, and it seems BOS will come up a distant fourth behind ATL, JFK, SLC and LAX.

Fourth behind 4 airports, that is a neat trick  Wink

I also think those at a little airport in Kentucky have something to say about that ranking.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:24 pm

I feel worst for the poor vendors and establishments in that new terminal who probably never saw the foot traffic their high rents were supposed to be valued at. I would bet that some angry tenants demanded that their rents be renegotiated based on foot traffic not being what was expected. I know you can never 'promise' foot traffic, but surely these places had high rents shoved in their face based on a certain expectation.

It could also be argued (I suppose) that Boston has as much transcon and transatlantic traffic as it can support. Indeed, Delta's transcon service to LAX and SFO died quick deaths (twice) because AA and UA ruled the roost. It seems any and all carriers that have tried those runs (like HP) gave them up after a token effort. With that as history, who would dare try again?

As for transatlantic, I don't know what markets you could point to where there is an under-supply of service. From Boston, the markets worth going after seem to be well-served already.

Chris in NH

[Edited 2006-09-14 13:25:19]
 
N1120A
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:26 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 4):
It could also be argued (I suppose) that Boston has as much transcon and transatlantic traffic as it can support. Indeed, Delta's transcon service to LAX and SFO died quick deaths (twice) because AA and UA ruled the roost

DL still has 2 flights a day on BOS-LAX
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:57 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
DL still has 2 flights a day on BOS-LAX

Plus 1 flight on BOS-LAS, which qualifies as a non-hub transcon as well obviously and should not be neglected.
 
B752OS
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:07 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 4):
It could also be argued (I suppose) that Boston has as much transcon and transatlantic traffic as it can support. Indeed, Delta's transcon service to LAX and SFO died quick deaths (twice) because AA and UA ruled the roost. It seems any and all carriers that have tried those runs (like HP) gave them up after a token effort. With that as history, who would dare try again?

As mentioned, you are aware that DL still has 2 daily 738 flights to LAX. I believe the 2 LAX flights have been operated for almost a year straight now.
Also, in the past 8 months, DL has either added or is going to add non-stop service to CHS, DAY, BNA, PHF, YQB, SAV and TTN. That's a decent amount of expansion. Granted it's not international, it still is expansion.


I think there is still room for BOS to add some transcon service. For a non-hub airport that solely depends on O&D traffic they have pretty good service.

[Edited 2006-09-14 14:14:26]
 
airbazar
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:33 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 4):
I feel worst for the poor vendors and establishments in that new terminal who probably never saw the foot traffic their high rents were supposed to be valued at. I would bet that some angry tenants demanded that their rents be renegotiated based on foot traffic not being what was expected.

It's already happening. Some vendors at the remote terminal have closed shop (Legal Seafoods I believe it was), and the last I heard, Delta and Massport were working on an agreement to lease some gates at the remote terminal to another airline.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:35 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 6):
Plus 1 flight on BOS-LAS, which qualifies as a non-hub transcon as well obviously and should not be neglected.

How are the load factors on that flight?

MCOflyer
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 9):
How are the load factors on that flight?

No idea, but they should be stable, as the flight has been around since before BOS-SFO started, so if loads were bad, it would've been gone by now. The 738 seems to be the appropriate equipment for the route.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:45 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 10):
The 738 seems to be the appropriate equipment for the route.

Agreed. Thanks for the info. So it seems like DL is expanding BOS slowly.

MCOflyer
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worldtraveler
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:45 pm

There are opportunities for DL to expand from BOS, though, and they may come when the 757s start coming online. AA's pullout of several BOS-transatlantic markets certainly leaves DL some room.

You have to give DL credit for focusing on making JFK work now and not trying to do too much in the NE outside of NYC.
 
panamair
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:00 pm

It's all about priorities...

The first focus was obviously to take care of their biggest hubs - thus you had the depeaking of ATL, the buildup of SLC, the 'right-sizing' of CVG.
Next, as part of the international expansion, JFK had to be built up into a real hub. While it's difficult to tell whether DL may have gone for a BOS rehabilitation after JFK, the LAX terminal situation pretty much forced DL's hand in doing something more at LAX...hence the gradual rebuilding of LAX. They also figured that with JFK's expansion, they could temporarily take a break from the East Coast and try to shore up the West Coast next.....
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:07 pm

"Is this a case of 'what you see is what you get' regarding Delta at Logan?"

I actually think that what you see may be better than what you're going to get. With talks about leasing gates to another airline and DL's focus on its hubs, as well as the realignment of Florida routes after Song, BOS is likely to shrink further.

But this should be no surprise. BOS is a horribly run airport. The surprise is that DL would invest a lot of money in such an unfriendly environment.

PJ
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:08 pm

true... and LAX was waiting for a US airline to expand. If DL fills out LAX w/ service to Asia as soon as 2008, they will be sitting very pretty and be a much more well-rounded airline than if they solely focused on the east coast.
 
PVD757
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:38 pm

with AA dropping BOS-CDG ans the AF codeshare - you would think DL might try a BOS-CDG (even if it's one of the ex-TW, ex-AA 757s they are getting next year).

edit: but then again, with AF already doing the route, they might not - oh well just a thought I guess...

[Edited 2006-09-14 15:39:38]
 
airbazar
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:52 pm

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 14):
But this should be no surprise. BOS is a horribly run airport. The surprise is that DL would invest a lot of money in such an unfriendly environment.

Please spare us with this silliness. Have you actually looked at the numbers?
If anything, it amazes me how the airport can support that much traffic in such a limited space. They have virtually zero growth space and yet, year-after-year the passenger numbers and airline numbers continue to grow. This despite the fact that the largest carrier at BOS (US), has gone through BK procedures over the last few years. In recent years LC carriers have preferred BOS to the detriment of other regional airports such as PVD and MHT. If BOS was such a horrible place as you make it sound, they wouldn't be coming here.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
DL still has 2 flights a day on BOS-LAX

Completely my fault. I thought DL had given up Boston transcons. I do hope service is working for them!

Chris
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 18):
In recent years LC carriers have preferred BOS to the detriment of other regional airports such as PVD and MHT.

MHT is going to see a real down year, no doubt about that. This is acceptable because it's an industry thing rather than a MHT-specific one. We aren't alone in showing down numbers in 2006.

I hope at some point DL mainline comes back to MHT. They stand alone as the one carrier that abandoned mainline service here in favor of RJs. No other carrier saw the need to do that. I wonder if there is any correlation between that and their desire to 'fill' the new terminal at Logan? It could be argued that DL wanted to 'force' its DL customer base at MHT and PVD to Boston instead, for that very reason.

Chris in NH
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:32 am

Please, spare me your melodrama:

"If anything, it amazes me how the airport can support that much traffic in such a limited space. They have virtually zero growth space and yet, year-after-year the passenger numbers and airline numbers continue to grow."

Zero-space? Try LGA. Try DCA. That's zero space. Funny thing is, traffic at LGA and DCA continues to grow too. There's always space to be found.

BOS has space. Not lots of space, but they are not anywhere near the breaking point. Hell, they are putting the final touches on a new runway. Could you build a new runway at LGA or DCA? No.

The problem with BOS is that it's a big city, but it's not the size of NYC, LA, or Chicago.

Look at NYC. The Port Authority of NY and NJ is probably the most inept government agency on the face of the planet. For years JFK was a disgrace. It's gotten a lot better. LGA is still a disgrace. And EWR, well it's just EWR.

But traffic at those airports continues to grow inspite of the Port Authority because if you want to tap a 16 million person market, you have to touch at least one of those three airports.

That's not the case in BOS. Having a big presence in BOS is not a must for airlines. Having 100 different int'l airlines fly in isn't going to happen either. So Massport has to play nice; but it doesn't.

DL wanted FIS in Terminal A for int'l flights. That means they wanted to run int'l flights from BOS. Massport said no. So guess what? No int'l flights for DL at BOS. Plain and simple.

Instead, DL sends numerous widebodies a day to ATL, JFK, and CVG. No BOS. They wanted to do BOS . . . Massport said no.

Terminal A is empty. Don't be mad at me for pointing that out.

PJ
 
B752OS
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 17):
Please spare us with this silliness. Have you actually looked at the numbers?
If anything, it amazes me how the airport can support that much traffic in such a limited space. They have virtually zero growth space and yet, year-after-year the passenger numbers and airline numbers continue to grow. This despite the fact that the largest carrier at BOS (US), has gone through BK procedures over the last few years. In recent years LC carriers have preferred BOS to the detriment of other regional airports such as PVD and MHT. If BOS was such a horrible place as you make it sound, they wouldn't be coming here.

BOS is on pace this year to have the highest passengers total ever....even beating 2000. Also, out of the New England airports, BOS has more LCC seats than MHT and PVD combined. This is in no way a knock on those 2 airports....it only makes sense that BOS has the most traffic in the region.

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 20):
The problem with BOS is that it's a big city, but it's not the size of NYC, LA, or Chicago.

I am having trouble understanding what you mean by that? BOS survives on O&D numbers, I am willing to bet that it runs over 90% O&D. For a supposed struggling economy and a population that has become stable and is slowly growing, the Greater Boston area does very well in terms of passenger numbers and service.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 13):
It's all about priorities...

Thats the answer is a nutshell.......Delta cannot (and should not) try to expand at so many cities at the same time, thus BOS is not a priority at the moment. Never forget that rapid overexpansion is the number one way for airlines to run into financial trouble and fly themselves out of business, there are numerous examples of this happening. That Delta seems to have pulled off its huge international expansion without many issues (most routes met expectations from what we hear) is itself a minor miracle......many airlines in the past have not done so well.

Why is BOS now on the back burner? Delta, after planning to develop BOS into an transatlantic gateway, suddenly remembered that it already had a transatlantic gateway at JFK, just 200 miles to the South, that serves one of the most important O&D markets in the world. For years, Delta had almost a love/hate relationship with JFK - services would be added, services would be dropped.......total operations at JFK would increase only to decrease in the following season - finally, DL woke up and realized that JFK would play a major role in DL's new emphasis on longhaul and overseas flying. BOS would just have to wait......a couple of things to consider concerning BOS: first, that DL could not have its own customs/immigration at it terminal was a major issue against using BOS as a gateway city, second, DL tried the BOS-LGW route and it performed terribly and, last, DL is not the major player that they once were at Logan.....DL determined that its future was at its hub and gateway cities.

At some point, we could see DL try something new at BOS......maybe a few select transatlantic routes designed for O&D traffic (the fact that AA seems to have lost interest in flying O&D transatlantic out of BOS could encourage DL to open new flights, or discourage them since maybe the business case for such flights is simply not as good as we think it is). In the meantime, I dont expect DL to do much at BOS.....
 
CHIFLYGUY
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 22):

At some point, we could see DL try something new at BOS......maybe a few select transatlantic routes designed for O&D traffic (the fact that AA seems to have lost interest in flying O&D transatlantic out of BOS could encourage DL to open new flights, or discourage them since maybe the business case for such flights is simply not as good as we think it is). In the meantime, I dont expect DL to do much at BOS.....

I don't believe AA has lost interest in transatlantic flying from BOS, but they are losing the TW 757's and need to re-allocate aircraft. AA is trying to deploy their existing fleet to optimize profits, which necessitates cutbacks in certain markets that may be profitable and desirable without the equipment constraints.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Reply 23):

I don't believe AA has lost interest in transatlantic flying from BOS, but they are losing the TW 757's and need to re-allocate aircraft. AA is trying to deploy their existing fleet to optimize profits, which necessitates cutbacks in certain markets that may be profitable and desirable without the equipment constraints.

But dont you think that if AA was making a fortune on its transatlantic flights out of BOS,,,,they would have found airplanes to continue flying the routes? I realize that AA is losing a number of 752s, but AA is huge and could reallocate flights if the BOS market was important to them and they were making tons of money on the flights. For example, we dont see many AA Latin American services being cutback due to the 757 situation.
 
airbazar
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 20):
DL wanted FIS in Terminal A for int'l flights. That means they wanted to run int'l flights from BOS. Massport said no. So guess what? No int'l flights for DL at BOS. Plain and simple.

That's a myth. AA operates int'l flights out of terminal B. DL had plans pre 9/11 to operate a flight to Rome(?) and it's not like they had FIS at terminal C where they were operating at the time. So clearly having FIS facilities at the terminal can't be the reason. I'm pretty sure the Feds had some say in it as well. I mean, they're the ones who'd have to staff the facility. They can't even staff the one FIS facility at terminal E with enough personel to handle the afternoon rush hour what makes you think they would agree to staff a second facility? Maybe the real reason is DL didn't want to pay for it.
 
goldorak
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:35 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 2):
, they'd still don't flights to places like PVR or KBP, but CDG, FRA, DUB/SNN would definitely have been on the map



Quoting PVD757 (Reply 16):
with AA dropping BOS-CDG ans the AF codeshare - you would think DL might try a BOS-CDG (even if it's one of the ex-TW, ex-AA 757s they are getting next year).

edit: but then again, with AF already doing the route, they might not - oh well just a thought I guess...

Yes, with the 2 daily AF flights BOS-CDG, code-shared with DL, it seems very unlikely that DL would operate a 3rd one with its own metal
 
fewsolarge
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:44 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
Fourth behind 4 airports, that is a neat trick

Ha! It's the programmer in me, starting with zero  Wink
 
A330323X
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 25):
That's a myth. AA operates int'l flights out of terminal B. DL had plans pre 9/11 to operate a flight to Rome(?) and it's not like they had FIS at terminal C where they were operating at the time. So clearly having FIS facilities at the terminal can't be the reason.

AA has been cutting its international flights at BOS, and one of the reasons is the lack of FIS at Terminal B, which Massport promised to AA and US. US has also cut international flights at BOS for the same reason.

Smart trick that is, pissing off your three largest airlines.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:12 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 17):
This despite the fact that the largest carrier at BOS (US),

US is not BOS's largest carrier...DL is.

http://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp?pn=
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B752OS
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:15 am

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 26):
Yes, with the 2 daily AF flights BOS-CDG, code-shared with DL, it seems very unlikely that DL would operate a 3rd one with its own metal

The 2 daily flights are seasonal.....I believe the second daily frequency is around for 4 or 5 months a year. This fall, the daily flight will be operated with the 744.

Quoting A330323X (Reply 28):
US has also cut international flights at BOS for the same reason.

What routes has US cut? I always thought US only had a handful of flights to the Caribbean
 
A330323X
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:35 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 30):
What routes has US cut? I always thought US only had a handful of flights to the Caribbean

US was all set to restart BOS-FRA (a route they've operated in the past), even going as far as removing their code from LH's flight so as to send their pax on their own metal, but decided against it at the last minute due to the lack of (promised) FIS in Terminal B, and added a second PHL-FRA flight instead.

US has also cut BOS-MBJ frequencies due to the FIS issues and replaced them with additional BOS-AUA frequencies, which can preclear customs in AUA and arrive BOS at Terminal B.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:55 am

Delta has been on again, off again regarding Boston for decades.

The acquisitioin of Northeast Airlines never saw much sustained growth for Boston. And now with the LCC competition actually at Boston, and at PVD and MHT, growing Boston will be extremely difficult.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
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STT757
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:08 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 20):
Look at NYC. The Port Authority of NY and NJ is probably the most inept government agency on the face of the planet.

I have to strongly disagree with you JFK (not the first time) as a Public Administration major who has studied in depth various Government and NGO's the Port Authority is without a doubt the most efficient and professional Quasi-Government organization in the US, for a more in depth history read "Empire on the Hudson" by a Princeton University Professor who's name escapes me.

The worst Government agency by far is the NY MTA, by far the most corrupt and inept agency operating in the US.

Compared to the Port Authority the MTA is an agency suitable to a third world Country, the MTA on several occasions has had to borrow money from the Port Authority to keep from defaulting on bonds and in the '80s to meet payroll.

The Port Authority does a great job running EWR, JFK, LGA and TEB, besides that they own the World Trade Center and are having to deal with all the politics involved with that rebuilding, the own and Operate Port Newark/Elizabeth the Busiest Port on the East Coast of the US and the third Busiest Port in the Country, the PATH system, Bayonne, Geothals, Outerbridge, George Washington Bridges, Holland, Lincoln Tunnel, Port Authority Bus terminal etc..

They are doing a fantastic job, check out all the new ferry Terminals the Port Authority has built along the Hudson, especially Port Imperial in NJ and the the West Side ferry Terminal in Manhattan. They are spending $318 Million rebuilding the Hoboken Terminal Ferry Slips and building a new Ferry Terminal at the World Financial Center.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:10 am

But as long as no one else commits to a significant growth at BOS, the status quo for all airlines will be maintained. B6 will grow and DL will have a presence in the markets they need to fly but the rest of the airlines will simply expand elsewhere. AA, DL, and US all have larger operations elsewhere in the NE so BOS is just icing on the cake, not the main course for them.
 
deltaguy767
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:37 am

Massport screwed DL and as such are paying for it with all of the flights DL adds out of JFK. Ok sure even if Massport allowed DL/Skyteam to consolidate into Term. A we still wouldn't see a ton of Int'l flights, but more along the lines of CO at CLE or AA at BOS as well. Massport needs to cut their losses with Term E and just move everybody out and keep it for another day. No one is in Term D. now, so move B6 to Term. D, and any Int'l carrier who doesn't want to shack up with their alliance partner i.e LH with UA at Term C, DL with AF/AZ at Term. A and AA with BA, and IB at Term B. All should be equipped with Customs/INS and that would help BOS become a better Int'l gateway. It's a win-win for Massport and the airlines, not over the short-haul, but over the longhaul yes.

Cheers from BDL,  wave 
DeltaGuy767
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STT757
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:43 am

It would be nice if CO were to move back to the "new" Terminal A at BOS, 4 or 5 gates.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
LH423
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:16 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 35):
It's a win-win for Massport and the airlines, not over the short-haul, but over the longhaul yes

Again, I'm no fan of Massport but, as stated earlier, Massport wasn't the only one who killed FIS in Terminal A. Customs and Border Protection also didn't allow it to go through, basically saying that they wouldn't staff it. They, also stated, can barely staff Terminal E as is. The most counters (out of 40 at terminal E) I've ever seen manned was 17. That means 23 counters were not in use. No, BOS doesn't need 40 positions because even if they had the manpower, there aren't enough flights to warrant that except for maybe six hours a day (from 1300-1400 and from 1500-1900, 2000-2200).

Short-sighted, yes. Practical given the current situation, yes. And I hate it because I'd love to see Terminal A used even at half it's capacity (DL uses A at about 30% capacity).

LH423
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chrisnh
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:28 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 34):
AA, DL, and US all have larger operations elsewhere in the NE so BOS is just icing on the cake, not the main course for them.

If you are describing the Northeast, yes. I agree. Despite a 'record' year for passengers at Logan, my sense is that the major legacy carriers have been by-passing BOS of late in favor of NY. I might wager that almost ALL of the 'growth' at Logan is attributed to jetBlue.

But if 'NE' means New England, Boston IS New England to American Airlines. Just check MHT and PVD and tell me how many AA planes you see. Same with DL. They've done nothing but go backwards at the secondary regional airports around New England. USAirways mainline has some service @ MHT and PVD, more at BDL, and none at PWM. So, when you are talking about these three airlines, Boston most certainly IS the 'main course' if we are talking strictly about New England.

Chris in NH
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:53 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 35):
No one is in Term D. now, so move B6 to Term. D,

That's because Terminal D doesn't really exist anymore. I believe within a few years, Terminal E will be renamed D.

The previous Terminal D is being absorbed into C (or E, I forget...). It wasn't much of a terminal anyway.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:33 am

"The Port Authority does a great job running EWR, JFK, LGA and TEB"

Then how come they rival each other for last place on customer service surveys year after year after year??

Anybody on this board want to call LGA a world-class airport?? If you do please post something.

How about the old IAB that the Port Authority ran at JFK?? Can anyone believe that this windowless maze that was actually a conglomerate of three terminals opearted as THE major gateway to the US up until 6 years ago?

How about the Central Terminal that the PA runs at LGA?? Anyone been into Concourses A,B,C, and D lately?

What do you think of the leaky roof?? The lack of food options?? The low ceilings?? The narrow hallways?? The jetways from 1962?? The lack of FIDS for all carriers expect AA, UAL, CO, jetBlue, Air Canada, and Midwest?
How about the rats that run through the Marketplace at 9pm??

How about the report of a crumbling tower on the front page of the NY Post last week including pictures of a roof leaking onto ground radar that shuts down in heavy rain???

Sound like 'the most efficient and professional Quasi-Government organization in the US' to you??

Anyone think LGA can even sniff at the garbage from ATL? DEN? CLT? MCO? ORD? MDW? DCA? Hell . . . BOS?

Virtually every airport in the country (Excluding DTW-Old terminal) is nicer in every conceivable way than the Port Authority run Central Terminal at LGA.


Actually, I challenge you STT757 to show me one, just one, terminal at a major US airport that is in worse shape than the PA run CTB at LGA.

-No common FIDS to show arrivals/departure for all airlines in the terminal
-Rats in the Food Court
-Leaky roof
-Crumbling Tower
-Hangars from 1939
-Roadways under constant contruction; always bumpy
-New roadway signage that was half-complete. Half the signs are the new color-coded signs that grace EWR. The other half are the old brown signs. Been like that for over a year.


I could go forever. And while PATH, the Port, and the Bridges and Tunnels have absolutely no bearing on a.net, please ask anyone if they think the George Washington Bridge is a modern marvel of efficiency by the best run quasi-government agency in the country?

If they agree with you ask them if they approached from the Cross Bronx, Deegan, or Harlem River Drive in the mile long, filthy, horrifically maintained tunnel that actually needed emeregency repairs in the 90s to keep the apartments above it from collapsing onto I-95??


Then ask a regular at the Port Authority Bus Terminal what that nice fragrance that graces the place is. Ah yes, homeless urine. That's it.


Outerbridge Crossing nightly closure for repaving . . . every summer night since I was a kid.

Gothels Bridge falling down?? You bet. Replacement . . . another decade-long study please.

Direct link to EWR and JFK from Manhattan?? Never.

$1 billion link from JFK to LGA to 57 street in Manhattan?? You must be dreaming.


WTC site?? There are a lot of factors here. But one statement is true. Nobody is happy with the progress of rebuilding of this site. Mayor Nagin's statements were politically incorrect. But where's the memorial? Where are the buildings? Why is there a 16 acre Pit in the middle of Manhattan?

Politically incorrect to say. But sometimes the truth hurts.

Many groups to blame. The PA is one of them.



As I said early, it's a good thing there are 16 million people that need to use JFK, LGA, and EWR. If there weren't, airlines would shift ops to other places.

That's what happened with DL in BOS.

PJ
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:48 am

Quoting LH423 (Reply 37):
The most counters (out of 40 at terminal E) I've ever seen manned was 17. That means 23 counters were not in use. No, BOS doesn't need 40 positions because even if they had the manpower, there aren't enough flights to warrant that except for maybe six hours a day (from 1300-1400 and from 1500-1900, 2000-2200).

I have spent many an hour queueing for the blimmin FIS at BOS - idle buggers. There may only be 8 counters open, but you see plenty of uniformed staff skulking in the background, avoiding work. And don't tell me they're all busy - I'm sure some of them could be spared from the onerous task of defending democracy (aka beating up the olive-hued) to actually provide some customer service (and yes, we are customers !). This in itself begs the question, how can they be understaffed ? The job is not exactly rocket science - stare in mute hostility at passenger, stare blankly at form, stamp form, stamp passport, hand over passport and form, next. It's government work, so presumably the benefits are good - you'd think people would be queueing round the block. For the job, not waiting to be processed.
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airbazar
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:23 am

You guys crack me up with the "XYZ has been cutting flights out of BOS because of the lack of FIS". Newsflash, the only reason anyone has been cutting flights is because they can't afford it. BOS is not a hub so it makes little econoimic sense to operate a one-off large aircraft, the kind you usually see on transatlantic service. It makes far more economic sense to code share with a partner of which there are plenty at BOS. DL has 2 AF flights to CDG, US and UA have no less than 3 LH flights to FRA/MUC. Maintaining limited transatlantic routes out of a non-hub airport is the last thing airlines in economic trouble want to do. Stop using the no FIS facility as a lame duck excuse.

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 35):
All should be equipped with Customs/INS and that would help BOS become a better Int'l gateway. It's a win-win for Massport and the airlines, not over the short-haul, but over the longhaul yes.

And who do you suggest is going to staff all these FIS facilities and pay for it? It's not Massport's job to do that you know. Opening up another FIS facility at BOS is like spending $20million in airport improvements in the expectation that 10 years down the road, maybe an A380 will land. Ridiculous. The current FIS facility is not anywhere near capacity. If the airlines want FIS at their own terminal then they can pay for it themselves but I guess they don't want that.

What Massport needs to do sooner or later is kick NW out of Terminal E. That shoudl free up enough gates for trans-atlantic expansion not waste money building and maybe supporting another FIS facility that may or may not see any traffic at all.
 
slider
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting Fewsolarge (Reply 1):
They have scarce assets to redeploy,

They do? For all the talk of DL's reduction in capacity, their major t-atl expansion out of JFK, and ATL, and push into Latin, as well as now the LAX buildup would tell me otherwise.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 2):
Lord knows what DL's operation at BOS would be looking like today is Massport had officially allowed DL have FIS in their terminal before DL got serious about their massive expansion from JFK.

I keep hearing Massport, Massport, Massport in this thread and it wasn't until much later in this thread when LH423 mentioned it was more TSA staffing and having 2 intl FIS halls that was more the issue than Massport. What exactly did Massport do or not do that is the problem?

And more importantly, why would DL have committed to such a fine facility if they weren't going to use it fully or have full intl capability? And how are they paying for it now?

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 20):
BOS has space.

Yes, they do. The inter-terminal walkways are nice, and they've done a solid job with the transit center. Plus a hotel on airport with that Hilton. There are a lot of other older buildings that could probably (and might be) part of the master plan for renovation and re-use.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 32):
Delta has been on again, off again regarding Boston for decades.

That's the crux of it right there.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 36):
It would be nice if CO were to move back to the "new" Terminal A at BOS, 4 or 5 gates.

And who would pay for that move? This is where the Massport slam comes in....they make it cost prohibitive to do so.

Quoting LH423 (Reply 37):
Massport wasn't the only one who killed FIS in Terminal A. Customs and Border Protection also didn't allow it to go through, basically saying that they wouldn't staff it.

Bingo...

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 42):
What Massport needs to do sooner or later is kick NW out of Terminal E.

And to where? And what would they do with their AMS flight? Again, the issue of having FIS in that brand new spanking DL terminal becomes crystal clear.
 
airbazar
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 43):
And to where? And what would they do with their AMS flight? Again, the issue of having FIS in that brand new spanking DL terminal becomes crystal clear.

Where would they go? Anywhere else other than terminal E would work. It didn't take B6 long to find space at terminal C. 1 miserable international flight per day does not justify occupying 3 valuable gates at the International Terminal. It's not that long of a tow between E and C. All Massport needs to do is sweeten the deal. Or maybe they're just waiting for NW to fold then it's a win-win situation for Massport  Smile

Now, usually it's not a good thing for airport business to be losing carriers but NW's presence in BOS is so minimal, I'm sure there would be other airlines that would fill in the void in the routes that NW currently operates.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:10 am

Let’s not forget that passengers pay a fee to use services of the Dept. of Homeland Security at BOS and every other airport. While the facility may be able to accommodate far more inspectors than are actually needed, passengers shouldn’t have to endure hour long waits or more.

There is a rumor that DL is going to give several gates back to Logan and another carrier may well join DL in Term A.

Yes, B6 is growing in BOS but as far as most of the rest of the carriers, it remains status quo. And if B6 starts jumping into markets that other carriers want to maintain, there will be 2 carriers serving those markets.
 
slider
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 44):
1 miserable international flight per day does not justify occupying 3 valuable gates at the International Terminal. It's not that long of a tow between E and C. All Massport needs to do is sweeten the deal.

It's not that simple....they don't schedule that AMS turn flight with enough time to download, tow over, and upload in the 100 minutes or whatever it is.

And 1 flight isn't worth the added headaches compared to moving. Their digs aren't bad now as it is- great counter space especially.
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:25 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 43):
And more importantly, why would DL have committed to such a fine facility if they weren't going to use it fully or have full intl capability? And how are they paying for it now?

As I recall DL signed the agreement for the new terminal A on 9/10/01. About a week later DL wanted to void the agreement in light of the new situation but Massport wouldn't budge.
 
airbazar
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 45):
Yes, B6 is growing in BOS but as far as most of the rest of the carriers, it remains status quo.

Not exactly. TinPusher007 provided a really nice tool above that shows that in just one year B6 is now BOS 4th largest carrier in terms of passengers.
http://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp?pn=

Quoting Slider (Reply 46):
And 1 flight isn't worth the added headaches compared to moving. Their digs aren't bad now as it is- great counter space especially.

That's what I'm saying. NW has the best setup at BOS and they are one of the smallest carriers at BOS. They really lucked out. It's great for NW but it's really bad for Massport. I suspect those 3 gates are worth more to Massport than NW service at BOS. Unfortunately it's not that easy to move them out but you can bet Massport is dying to get them out of there.
 
zrs70
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RE: Has DL Given Up Expanding At BOS?

Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:23 am

A little historical perspective:

Just about every major US airline at BOS has had transatlantic service. The following are either past or current routes

BN: had service all over Europe in the late 70's
PA: had service to LHR on the through the 70's
TW: Service to LHR, CDG, FCO, LIS, and others
UA: flight to LHR
AA: LHR, CDG, MAN, LGW
US: FRA
NW: AMS, LGW, FRA, PIK, SNN
DL: LGW

To my knowledge, EA, CO, and PI never had transatlantic service from BOS.

Of all these carriers, only NW, PA, and BN had their home presence in Terminal E.
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