danild
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Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:27 pm

Hi all!

I came accross this very well made landing video of BA 777 YYZ-LHR and I noticed that seconds before landing the pilot seems to go for extra flaps. Or it sounds like it please let me know what that sound is before landing as it seems a little bit unusual that extra flaps would be aplied 2 seconds before touchdown specially on the T7 that seems to be a little slow to deploy.

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...h_Airways_Aviation_Video-6963.html

Thanks!
Danild
 
flyingbronco05
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:36 pm

That noise is associated with a pump. You heard it run before the flaps were extended and stops once the flaps are in their selected position, then you hear it again before the spoilers are deployed. You hear it once again as the spoilers are being retracted and once more when the flaps are being retracted.
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MDorBust
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:53 pm

The sound comes from pumps that are automatically activated at a pre determined altitude.
RE: What's This Noise On Landing In A 777 (by Bobster2 Aug 7 2006 in Tech Ops)
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keego
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:54 pm

Great Video! It sounds like the flaps and looking closley it does look like they move but I honestly dont know for sure! An interesting point is the aircraft landed on 09R which is very rare, only a couple of months ago there was a thread on take-offs from 09L and that they hardly ever occur. If the T7 was landing on 09R does that mean 09L was being used for T/O's?
 
Glareskin
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:12 am

This seems like a typical T7 landing. A related question I've always have is if the flaps still only contribute to extra lift when deployed in the furthest position or if they also function as some kind of air brake.

Anyone having a good explanation for that?

Thanks.
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cle757
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:15 am

Very cool video, I like the end where you can hear the flight attendant making the annoucements.
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danild
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:34 am

Thanks for your comments... I really was interesting to hear that pump... and I'm still puzzled on why it would be activated a couple of seconds before landing.

I also looved this video and another interesting point is how smooth that landing was... the little part between the flaps that moves (sorry I don't know what it's called) barely moves and I've landed on T7's before and that thing doesn't stop moving.

Thanks to all for the comments!
Danild
 
2H4
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:39 am




Quoting Glareskin (Reply 4):
if the flaps still only contribute to extra lift when deployed in the furthest position or if they also function as some kind of air brake.

Typically, the first settings of flaps produce more lift than drag, while the lower settings produce more drag than lift.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
LHR27C
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:12 am

Quoting Keego (Reply 3):
An interesting point is the aircraft landed on 09R which is very rare, only a couple of months ago there was a thread on take-offs from 09L and that they hardly ever occur. If the T7 was landing on 09R does that mean 09L was being used for T/O's?

Before 7am both runways are used for landings due to the very high volume of inbound traffic.
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
 
B747-437B
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting Keego (Reply 3):
If the T7 was landing on 09R does that mean 09L was being used for T/O's?

Mixed-mode operations are used during the morning arrivals peak with simultaneous approaches on both 09R and 09L. Departures are all on 09R though. The only time 09L is used for departures is during IROPs situations where aircraft have to be cleared quickly so as to not hit the night quota.
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Boeing747_600
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting Danild (Reply 6):
also looved this video and another interesting point is how smooth that landing was... the little part between the flaps that moves (sorry I don't know what it's called) barely moves and I've landed on T7's before and that thing doesn't stop moving.

those are the inboard ailerons. They make the small corrections that help maintain level flight. The outboard ailerons are furthur out on the trailing edge and are also used, although on some aircraft (I dont know about the T7) they are locked during cruise.
 
Ejazz
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:56 am

At 30 feet on the B777-200 the Left and Right Hydraulic Demand Pumps and either the C1 or C2 Hydraulic Pump are commanded to run continuously, thats the noise you can hear.

Either C1 or C2 Pump is commanded on at gear down the other at 30 feet.

That is the flaperon between the flaps.
Etihad Girl, You're a great way to fly.
 
micstatic
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:15 am

Cool video except that the author called it short finals. I hate when people call a short final, short finals.
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Goldenshield
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 12):
Cool video except that the author called it short finals. I hate when people call a short final, short finals.

I totally agree, and have mentioned it before. Of course, English is a second language for many, so I can bend a little in that regard; however, for a native English speaker, saying, "That aircraft is on short finals approach," in colloquial use might be considered wierd, but in writing, it would be viewed as a poor grammar construct.

As far as the topic goes, the 9's are used all of the time; it's not 'rare' to use them.
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danild
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 10):
those are the inboard ailerons. They make the small corrections that help maintain level flight. The outboard ailerons are furthur out on the trailing edge and are also used, although on some aircraft (I dont know about the T7) they are locked during cruise.

Thanks for the clarification. It's good to know what a particular airplane part is called...

Thanks!
Danild
 
traineepilot
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 4):
A related question I've always have is if the flaps still only contribute to extra lift when deployed in the furthest position or if they also function as some kind of air brake.

Lower settings of flaps give you a considerable amount of extra lift with only a slight drag penalty. Thats why less flap is used on takeoff.

However, on landing, higher flap settings is used because yes, it gives a very good increase on lift, but as a penalty, you get a quite a lot of drag and on landing, you can use this to your advantage, hence, full flaps isnt used on takeoff.

There is no point explaining how flaps generate extra lift as it is not important here, but the only thing you need to know is the the full setting of flaps, you get a lot of drag and it also lower the stalling speed which, obviously is a good thing.
 
peterpuck
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:21 am

They call it "finals" in England, where English is obviously the first language.
 
musapapaya
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:22 am

I hate the dirty wings on this aircraft! Why cant they clean it more often? Wouldnt that be more efficient?
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
BOE773
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:34 am

#3 spoiler panel did not go to full deflection on touch-down.
Got a minor prob there son. Pump less grease at those inbd and outbd flap track joints and center hinge on #5 spoiler panel. Clean the nipples off after greasing and you'll have a cleaner lookin wing. Yer starting to look like dirty AF planes.
 
philhyde
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting Danild (Reply 6):
and I'm still puzzled on why it would be activated a couple of seconds before landing.

In the thread linked above ("What's this noise...") they explain that the pumps are activated at a pre-determined height, which in this case is shortly before landing. The idea, I suppose, is that the hydraulic pressure needs of the aircraft will be higher after touchdown to operate things like spoilers, brakes, reversers, etc... There is enough hydraulic pressure to get things started but it needs to be maintained.
Canon junkie - Aviation Nut
 
danild
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting Philhyde (Reply 19):
In the thread linked above ("What's this noise...") they explain that the pumps are activated at a pre-determined height, which in this case is shortly before landing. The idea, I suppose, is that the hydraulic pressure needs of the aircraft will be higher after touchdown to operate things like spoilers, brakes, reversers, etc... There is enough hydraulic pressure to get things started but it needs to be maintained.

This makes a lot of sense!!!! Thanks for the answer!!!!

Daniel
Danild
 
robsawatsky
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting Traineepilot (Reply 15):
There is no point explaining how flaps generate extra lift as it is not important here, but the only thing you need to know is the the full setting of flaps, you get a lot of drag and it also lower the stalling speed which, obviously is a good thing.

Though be sure not to look for the answer in the typical school textbooks, they probably have it wrong.
 
traineepilot
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting PeterPuck (Reply 16):
They call it "finals" in England, where English is obviously the first language.

Please note we dont call it finals, the term 'finals' is normally used by people who don't fly. When I did my radio licence course (which in america they dont have for the PPL licence at least) we was taught that it is always 'final', not 'finals'.
 
traineepilot
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 17):
hate the dirty wings on this aircraft! Why cant they clean it more often? Wouldnt that be more efficient?

Yes, you are right. Having a clean and a wing that is polished reduces the boundary layer which in itself reduces drag and fuel burn.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting Traineepilot (Reply 22):
Please note we dont call it finals, the term 'finals' is normally used by people who don't fly. When I did my radio licence course (which in america they dont have for the PPL licence at least) we was taught that it is always 'final', not 'finals'.

So do you all over there on the other side of the pond still do "bumps an circuits" and fly behind an "airscrew?" Big grin
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
traineepilot
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting Robsawatsky (Reply 21):
Though be sure not to look for the answer in the typical school textbooks, they probably have it wrong.

Please note that I have just passed my aircraft technical exams relating this, and with 100% so im quite confident on the theory of lift and how flaps assist in this process at slow speeds.
 
traineepilot
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:07 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 24):
So do you all over there on the other side of the pond still do "bumps an circuits" and fly behind an "airscrew?"

From all the experience I have had from american aviation terminology, I find it hilarious how you get from A to B.
 
cumulus
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 24):
bumps an circuits

Circuits and Bumps!!!
What Goes Up Must Come Down, Hopefully In One Piece!
 
traineepilot
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting Cumulus (Reply 27):
Circuits and Bumps!!!

Please help me on this one, does that translate to touch n goes?
 
KELPkid
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting Traineepilot (Reply 28):
Please help me on this one, does that translate to touch n goes?

That's affirmative. The late Bob Stevens (who wrote the "There I Was..." cartoon in Air Force magazine) had a hillarious comic back in the day on the (WWII-era) differenced between American and British aviation terminology (I believe it was titled "Pilot Prune vs. Roger Rudder").
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
traineepilot
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 29):
That's affirmative. The late Bob Stevens (who wrote the "There I Was..." cartoon in Air Force magazine) had a hillarious comic back in the day on the (WWII-era) differenced between American and British aviation terminology (I believe it was titled "Pilot Prune vs. Roger Rudder").

HAHA, i love how people assume that because were british, we have a completely strange accent and terminology, lol. Id like to see that cartoon good buddy, cheerio old chap. Big grin
 
KELPkid
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting Traineepilot (Reply 30):
HAHA, i love how people assume that because were british, we have a completely strange accent and terminology, lol. Id like to see that cartoon good buddy, cheerio old chap.

Send me a PM, and I'll see if I can get you a scanned copy...my scanner wasn't working last week when I needed it  Sad
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
BOE773
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:40 am

The spats on the alighting gear were being pulled along with the airscrew doing circuits and bumps on the aerodrome.

Hey, do you guys over there have to pay landing fees to land in farmer's fields?
You must be chocked by all that useless bureaucracy and cost to own and run a puddle jumper.
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:58 am

The CRJ has this sound also and it comes on when the flaps and spoliers are being used.
 
socalfive
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting Traineepilot (Reply 15):
There is no point explaining how flaps generate extra lift as it is not important here, but the only thing you need to know is the the full setting of flaps, you get a lot of drag and it also lower the stalling speed which, obviously is a good thing.

It's actually quite simple, Flaps increase wing area, increased wing area= more lift, more lift=slower stall speeds, slats and flaps increase total wing area.
 
traineepilot
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:06 am

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 32):
Hey, do you guys over there have to pay landing fees to land in farmer's fields?

I wouldn't be surprised knowing what government we have. I heard in America, landing fees at reasonably small airports is small or non-existant. Here, landing fees are a nightmare.
 
mpdpilot
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:38 am

I have always been told that flaps are used on landing to provide you with a steeper approach without the gain in airspeed is this correct?

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 34):
It's actually quite simple, Flaps increase wing area, increased wing area= more lift, more lift=slower stall speeds, slats and flaps increase total wing area.

Flaps also change the camber of the wing which I think is where most of the new lift comes from. The flaps are also shaped like wings and do a lot more than just increasing the wing area. flaps also change the stall characteristics of the airplane to prevent them.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
boo25
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:25 am

Yeuch, i work for BA, and we have standard announcements - which you can add a bit to, if it sounds professional - - that was totally tacky, obviously loves the sound of her own voice and just too casual, CRINGE.............

Obviously worked in a bingo hall before............................
 
BOE773
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting Traineepilot (Reply 35):

I honestly feel sorry for you folk over there saddled with the high cost of private flying. That whole bureaucratic quagmire needs to be turfed out and start off with a clean sheet. What are IAOPA doing, if anything, to lower the cost of private aviation?
Anyway, sorry for the divergence from the original topic.

Now would some of you rerun that video of the 77 and tell me why #3
spoiler board is not fully extended at touch-down and initial roll-out.
 
FlyboySMF2GFK
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:53 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 36):
Flaps also change the camber of the wing which I think is where most of the new lift comes from. The flaps are also shaped like wings and do a lot more than just increasing the wing area. flaps also change the stall characteristics of the airplane to prevent them.

It depends on which type of flap you're talking about. Fowlers increase camber and surface area. Plain and slotted flaps increase camber but not so much on the surface area (unless it's combined with a Fowler). Split flaps increase camber and surface area, but also have more of a drag penalty versus a lift benefit.

Fowler flaps:

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Split flaps:

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Plain (some might say slotted) flaps:

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Slotted Fowler flaps:

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Goldenshield
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:05 am

Quoting FlyboySMF2GFK (Reply 39):
Plain (some might say slotted) flaps:

This has been brought up before in the tech forum. Cessnas have a flap that for the first few degrees acts as a fowler by moving out an inch or so, then drops sharply. During that process, a slot forms between the flap and wing.
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FlyboySMF2GFK
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:10 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 40):

Right, not intimately familiar with Cessnas, but the Pipers I've flown are considered (just barely) slotted.
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 17):
I hate the dirty wings on this aircraft! Why cant they clean it more often? Wouldnt that be more efficient?

For a minute i thought I was looking at an AF 777

Very informative thread.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
BOE773
Posts: 413
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:38 pm

It amazes me that a fairly modern wing such as the 777 has, uses a dozen VGs (Vortex Generators) along its outbd surface.

Hopefully an Engineer corrected that #3 spoiler panel that did not fully extend.
 
tristanhnl
Posts: 125
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:25 pm

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 10):
those are the inboard ailerons. They make the small corrections that help maintain level flight. The outboard ailerons are furthur out on the trailing edge and are also used, although on some aircraft (I dont know about the T7) they are locked during cruise.



Quoting Ejazz (Reply 11):
That is the flaperon between the flaps.

To add a little bit of input, yes, that part between the two sets of flaps is called the flaperon. Boeing was innovative in turning this inboard aileron also into a flap during landing (flap + aileron = flaperon). Previously designed aircraft such as the 767 have inboard ailerons that serve only as an aileron.

Along with the rudder on the vertical stablilizer, ailerons help turn a plane. But my guess is that on short final, when there is not too many major turns going on, that flaperon then functions as a flap to help add more drag on the wing. However if it is very windy during landing and the plane is getting jostled around, the flaperon serves as an aileron to make adjustments to maintain level flight, as Boeing 747-600 described. This is the reason why on one 777 flight you may notice the flaperon is lowered and stays still until touchdown (smoother air), and on another flight it's constantly twitching up and down (rougher air).
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KFLLCFII
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:30 pm

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 43):
Hopefully an Engineer corrected that #3 spoiler panel that did not fully extend.


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Photo © Vector Grafix
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Photo © Benny Bartels



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Photo © Sam Chui



Appears to be the correct position for that particular spoiler...
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Geo772
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:00 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 45):
Quoting BOE773 (Reply 43):
Hopefully an Engineer corrected that #3 spoiler panel that did not fully extend.

Not #3 spoiler at all, it was number 4.

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 45):
Appears to be the correct position for that particular spoiler...

The #4 spoiler is a bit different to the rest of the 'flight' spoilers on the 777 in so much as if all the flight control computers go seriously wrong spoilers 4 and 11 are cable operated to provide roll control. I don't think this has ever happened for real but is practised on the simulator.
Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
 
sevenforeseven
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:10 pm

Fly by wire, Airbus were the pioneers.
 
thunder9
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:46 pm

Quoting Sevenforeseven (Reply 47):
Fly by wire, Airbus were the pioneers.

Actually, I believe that General Dynamics was the pioneer in that field with their relatively successful F-16 family of aircraft.  spin 

-J
"Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee." - William Kershner
 
cumulus
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RE: Pilot Goes For Xtra Flaps Seconds Before Landing

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:50 pm

Quoting Traineepilot (Reply 25):
Please note that I have just passed my aircraft technical exams

Rumbling a 777 onto the tarmac at LHR is a far cry from pottering around the place in a C172 (or whatever you're learning in).

[Edited 2006-09-15 10:54:57]
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